Kittle, 49ers have significant disconnect in contract talks

[predator_05]

21 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

Not directed at you specifically Slats but this Low value position sh*t has got to stop (yes I read your post so continue reading  ). If you happen to some how get an all time great at ANY position they are going to make a huge Impact the same way as if you have a pile of dog crap is going to hurt you as well. MLB are not all that great a value position as some JNer's claim but then show me Lewis or Singletary, Urlacker, Butkus and everything changes. OMG Safeties suck balls but then lets start Talking Reed, Polomalu, Lott,  this can go on and on every position with a lot more players than I mentioned its important cause if you just so happen to be weak somewhere LOW value or not another team will find a way to exploit that weakness.

Seems like the only players worth big money discussion are QB LT WR DE CB .... And I'm sorry but that's not all football is about.  Especially when your team may be just one or 2 players away from serious SB contention and you lack a Big time TE or a Difference making safety or MLB. Everyone is going to view how a team should be built differently and if you asked me If I would start building a team with an Ed Reed or a Ray Lewis or a Rob Gronkowski your damn right I would say yes every single time no matter how people view the value at the position. 

Some coaches use guys in different ways and view guys in different ways its not always about what some draft idiot values A guy at it what a team needs or a coach needs to make his schemes click. So lets stop labeling positions with high or low value because if everyone had the perfect formula they would be Bill Belichick a guys who wins if he plugs mary poppins in any where he damn well pleases.

Just like @slats says here maybe there are not so many high end TE's because it just so happens to be one of the most difficult positions in the NFL game. Always has been. Same comes into play with positions like Safety where you have multiple assignments on any given play. Its not like a CB or WR where you run your designed route or cover your designated player. IMHO if anything easier positions to play are the ones who get paid high cause its easier for them to excel with minimal assignments. 

 

Ed Reed and polamalu served as cogs within a strong defensive machine. While they played an important role, the defense was never built around them. Their success was largely a reflection of their defensive unit's overall solidity and consistent play-making. 

For example, Polamalu played on a defense featuring James harrison, james farrior, casey hampton, lamarr woodley, foote, ike taylor...etc. This defense was absolutely stacked. Was polamalu a difference maker? In some games, yes...but i could easily make the case that they would have been successful without him. 

Safeties don't give you the advantageous game-changing plays that a cornerback, linebacker or edge rusher would. The nature of their position is reactive; they clean up mistakes as the last line of defense. They are, at best, obstacles at the 2nd level.

Ed reed and sean taylor were incredibly rare because they provoked turnovers, but it takes a rare talent to play the position the way they did. Most don't have it. 99% of safeties - incl. elite ones - offer rangy coverage but little to no playmaking outside of what's schemed. And this is the category jamal adams falls into. He's not gonna turn games in your favor, it's not his fault...that's the limitation of the position, and his talent level. 

 

Safety is a low value position. As is Tight end. And running back. I'd take a good o-lineman or defensive tackle over those positions. They play for longer and you can build around them. 

[Smashmouth]

3 hours ago, slats said:

I understand your point, but no one has that kind of foresight going into the draft (and Reed is an outlier at safety). If I'm building a team, I build with the most important blocks first and try to avoid the shiny objects distracting me like a potential HoF safety. 

Oh, and I don't dismiss DT as a lower tier position, either. Jet fans have had enough, and they shouldn't be drafted every other year (or more), but it's still a premium position - especially if that DT can disrupt the pocket. I'm talking specifically about these guys in the 300-lb range who aren't athletic enough to play OT or DL, or these guys in the 6'-220lb range who play RB or safety because they're simply not athletic enough to be a WR or CB. A guy like Ed Reed might be a guy you make an extremely rare exception for, but even then I'd have to view him as leaps and bounds above my top prospect at any premium position. Replacements for a safety or RB or guard are plentiful. I fill them later in most drafts. There are exceptions and unique circumstances, but that would be my basic philosophy and I would try to adhere to it. This is why I'm a big Joe D fan, I feel like he's on the same page. 

Big JD fan here as well and like I said I understand your point and agree..... I just don't know how I would react based on a non premium position vs need with a first round pick . I find it much easier for teams to fill holes in your roster in the mid rounds than turn away a potential superstar in Rd 1 based on need of a premium position. Anyone who says they are taking the best available athlete in the later rounds is an idiot .

One good example of the premium is how many times have teams reached on garbage QB's like Winston cause, you know, the most premium position in the game and wound up with sh*t. We have to be the poster boys in that regard. I'll admit I'm playing as little devils advocate when I mention guys like Ed Reed because that's not really a fair assessment cause no one knows when a guy like that or a guy like Ray Lewis or LT is going to pop up. So the argument in and of itself is weak I just really hate the term "Premium Position" because I think that's what makes teams reach when they should be a bit smarter about how they build their rosters. 

I think for the most part we agree on how to build a roster starting with the most important positions on the field only disagreement I see is when that once in a lifetime guy comes along I would have a hard time turning that away because I need to fill a premium spot. Then we can also start looking at FA to fill premium spots as well from teams that are in such cap hell they simply can't afford to pay the guys. Of if you are the Idiot Dolphins and trade away premium position players like its going out of style. Lost of moving parts for a GM to deal with and I prefer build with the draft get your team right there contending for a SB and then at that stage maybe make the one big FA splash to get ya over the hump. Trying to build from scratch with FA like Idiot MAcc is not and never will be the answer.

[Smashmouth]

3 hours ago, predator_05 said:

 

Ed Reed and polamalu served as cogs within a strong defensive machine. While they played an important role, the defense was never built around them. Their success was largely a reflection of their defensive unit's overall solidity and consistent play-making. 

For example, Polamalu played on a defense featuring James harrison, james farrior, casey hampton, lamarr woodley, foote, ike taylor...etc. This defense was absolutely stacked. Was polamalu a difference maker? In some games, yes...but i could easily make the case that they would have been successful without him. 

Safeties don't give you the advantageous game-changing plays that a cornerback, linebacker or edge rusher would. The nature of their position is reactive; they clean up mistakes as the last line of defense. They are, at best, obstacles at the 2nd level.

Ed reed and sean taylor were incredibly rare because they provoked turnovers, but it takes a rare talent to play the position the way they did. Most don't have it. 99% of safeties - incl. elite ones - offer rangy coverage but little to no playmaking outside of what's schemed. And this is the category jamal adams falls into. He's not gonna turn games in your favor, it's not his fault...that's the limitation of the position, and his talent level. 

 

Safety is a low value position. As is Tight end. And running back. I'd take a good o-lineman or defensive tackle over those positions. They play for longer and you can build around them. 

All good points but when it comes to TE I disagree i think a great TE can make an offense with a solid roster much better than any other position can other than QB. TE's do too much across the board to be considered a non premium position simply because there are just not that many great ones available. Plenty of overrated WR's out there who can put up huge numbers but can never be relied upon to make that big catch on third or 4th and long to move the chains. See One Robbie Anderson who was terrified to go over the middle and make such a catch. Bottom line there are only so many really good players at any given position in the NFL so no matter what position it is its hard to pass on greatness.

[Butterfield]

I agree that certain positions should be higher valued. It should not just be about positional value though, but also that players positive deviation from the mean for the position.  How much better is this player than others that play the position.  If he is that much better of a player, that should lead to an advantage.  
 

Having a tight end like Kittle should be a huge advantage, as teams have to specifically prepare for him, unlike anyone else in the league.

That all being said, it is worthless if you can’t use that advantage.  Has Gase ever utilized a tight end like that?

 

[slats]

2 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

So the argument in and of itself is weak I just really hate the term "Premium Position" because I think that's what makes teams reach when they should be a bit smarter about how they build their rosters. 

I think for the most part we agree on how to build a roster starting with the most important positions on the field only disagreement I see is when that once in a lifetime guy comes along I would have a hard time turning that away because I need to fill a premium spot.

Premium positions are the ones where it's difficult to find a replacement level solid starter. That's what makes them premium. The reason you target those ahead of non-premium positions is because there's less dropoff in talent from the top guys in those positions and the jags. Football teams are rarely in desperate need for a RB or a safety because you can always draft those guys in the lower rounds and develop them. Same with guards. If I'm looking at a guy I see as a long term starter at LT, WR, CB, Edge, I'm probably going to take that guy over the non-premium guy every single time. Really good safeties and RBs are always available in free agency, and usually very affordably (you know, because of postional value). If a good player at a premium position becomes available in free agency, there's almost always an issue involved. 

I just can't get over this "once in a lifetime," prospect concept. If I need a WR, and there's a good one there, it's hard for me to imagine taking some awesome safety instead of that WR. 

[Riggins]

13 hours ago, predator_05 said:

 

Ed Reed and polamalu served as cogs within a strong defensive machine. While they played an important role, the defense was never built around them. Their success was largely a reflection of their defensive unit's overall solidity and consistent play-making. 

For example, Polamalu played on a defense featuring James harrison, james farrior, casey hampton, lamarr woodley, foote, ike taylor...etc. This defense was absolutely stacked. Was polamalu a difference maker? In some games, yes...but i could easily make the case that they would have been successful without him. 

Safeties don't give you the advantageous game-changing plays that a cornerback, linebacker or edge rusher would. The nature of their position is reactive; they clean up mistakes as the last line of defense. They are, at best, obstacles at the 2nd level.

Ed reed and sean taylor were incredibly rare because they provoked turnovers, but it takes a rare talent to play the position the way they did. Most don't have it. 99% of safeties - incl. elite ones - offer rangy coverage but little to no playmaking outside of what's schemed. And this is the category jamal adams falls into. He's not gonna turn games in your favor, it's not his fault...that's the limitation of the position, and his talent level. 

 

Safety is a low value position. As is Tight end. And running back. I'd take a good o-lineman or defensive tackle over those positions. They play for longer and you can build around them. 

There are no low value positions, that is a myth, 

[predator_05]

28 minutes ago, Riggins said:

There are no low value positions, that is a myth, 

?

It's a salary cap league. You have to carefully choose the positions you commit your dollars to. 

 

7 hours ago, slats said:

Premium positions are the ones where it's difficult to find a replacement level solid starter. That's what makes them premium. The reason you target those ahead of non-premium positions is because there's less dropoff in talent from the top guys in those positions and the jags. Football teams are rarely in desperate need for a RB or a safety because you can always draft those guys in the lower rounds and develop them. Same with guards. If I'm looking at a guy I see as a long term starter at LT, WR, CB, Edge, I'm probably going to take that guy over the non-premium guy every single time. Really good safeties and RBs are always available in free agency, and usually very affordably (you know, because of postional value). If a good player at a premium position becomes available in free agency, there's almost always an issue involved. 

I just can't get over this "once in a lifetime," prospect concept. If I need a WR, and there's a good one there, it's hard for me to imagine taking some awesome safety instead of that WR. 

 

If we're trying to be as honest as possible - and completely disregarding hyperbole and nuance - then we could simply say that all non-quarterback positions are 'non-premium' or 'low-value'. 

 

The sky-high value of QB contracts in relation to other positions is evidence of this. It wouldn't be wrong. It would be (kind of) unfair, but not wrong. 

 

Realistically though, there are tiers. In order of value, on either side of the ball: those closest to the QB, to those furthest from the QB.

This is what we see from the more successful GMs. They build 'inside-out'. 

 

Maccagnan and Idzik forgot this when they picked a safety in the first round when rebuilding the team (pryor, adams). This is why they were sh*tty, incompetent GMs. 

[predator_05]

10 hours ago, Butterfield said:

I agree that certain positions should be higher valued. It should not just be about positional value though, but also that players positive deviation from the mean for the position.  How much better is this player than others that play the position.  If he is that much better of a player, that should lead to an advantage.  
 

Having a tight end like Kittle should be a huge advantage, as teams have to specifically prepare for him, unlike anyone else in the league.

That all being said, it is worthless if you can’t use that advantage.  Has Gase ever utilized a tight end like that?

 

Exactly.

Kittle only does what he does if:

1. he has a accurate QB throwing him the ball and 2. he has a coach that utilises his pass-catching ability. 

 

Remember, kittle was a 5th round pick. A bad-ass blocker, but unproven as a pass-catcher: https://www.pff.com/news/draft-pff-scouting-report-george-kittle-te-iowa

 It took a creative and forward-thinking coaching staff to put him in a position where he could use the full range of his talent. 

 

imagine kittle with josh allen at QB. 

[predator_05]

11 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

All good points but when it comes to TE I disagree i think a great TE can make an offense with a solid roster much better than any other position can other than QB. TE's do too much across the board to be considered a non premium position simply because there are just not that many great ones available. Plenty of overrated WR's out there who can put up huge numbers but can never be relied upon to make that big catch on third or 4th and long to move the chains. See One Robbie Anderson who was terrified to go over the middle and make such a catch. Bottom line there are only so many really good players at any given position in the NFL so no matter what position it is its hard to pass on greatness.

TE can be a difference-maker, but they take a while to develop. Have you ever seen a TE make an impact as a rookie? It's impossible. It's a multifaceted position, so they have a bigger learning curve. 

Teams don't have the patience. Good TEs can be found much later in drafts, see: Sharpe, Witten, Gates, Graham etc. Kittle and Kelce weren't day 1 picks. 

[Riggins]

13 minutes ago, predator_05 said:

?

It's a salary cap league. You have to carefully choose the positions you commit your dollars to. 

 

 

If we're trying to be as honest as possible - and completely disregarding hyperbole and nuance - then we could simply say that all non-quarterback positions are 'non-premium' or 'low-value'. 

 

The sky-high value of QB contracts in relation to other positions is evidence of this. It wouldn't be wrong. It would be (kind of) unfair, but not wrong. 

 

Realistically though, there are tiers. In order of value, on either side of the ball: those closest to the QB, to those furthest from the QB.

This is what we see from the more successful GMs. They build 'inside-out'. 

 

Maccagnan and Idzik forgot this when they picked a safety in the first round when rebuilding the team (pryor, adams). This is why they were sh*tty, incompetent GMs. 

Bowles and Rex had a lot to do with those picks, if Bowles wanted Mahomes, Mac would have taken him.

[Jetsfan80]

8 hours ago, Riggins said:

There are no low value positions, that is a myth, 

Tell NFL GMs that, because when you follow the money, your statement is 100 % false.  Not a myth at all.

 

Position	Franchise Tag	Transition Tag
QB	$26,824,000	$24,837,000
WR	$17,865,000	$15,680,000
DE	$17,788,000	$15,184,000
CB	$16,338,000	$14,197,000
DT	$16,126,000	$13,143,000
LB	$15,828,000	$13,767,000
OL	$14,781,000	$13,505,000
S	$11,441,000	$9,860,000
TE	$10,607,000	$9,117,000
RB	$10,278,000	$8,483,000
ST	$5,019,000	$4,559,000

 

And the median S, TE and RB salaries are even further away from the top paid positions.  

[Jetsfan80]

7 hours ago, Riggins said:

Bowles and Rex had a lot to do with those picks, if Bowles wanted Mahomes, Mac would have taken him.

Macc was supposed to be billed as a talent evaluator.  He and a team of scouts spend nearly a full calendar year assessing these prospects while the HC is busy coaching his team.

It is up to the GM to make the proper picks, regardless of the HC's wishes.  Period.  That's what GM's get paid big money to do.  

[TheMo]

18 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

Big JD fan here as well and like I said I understand your point and agree..... I just don't know how I would react based on a non premium position vs need with a first round pick . I find it much easier for teams to fill holes in your roster in the mid rounds than turn away a potential superstar in Rd 1 based on need of a premium position. Anyone who says they are taking the best available athlete in the later rounds is an idiot .

One good example of the premium is how many times have teams reached on garbage QB's like Winston cause, you know, the most premium position in the game and wound up with sh*t. We have to be the poster boys in that regard. I'll admit I'm playing as little devils advocate when I mention guys like Ed Reed because that's not really a fair assessment cause no one knows when a guy like that or a guy like Ray Lewis or LT is going to pop up. So the argument in and of itself is weak I just really hate the term "Premium Position" because I think that's what makes teams reach when they should be a bit smarter about how they build their rosters. 

I think for the most part we agree on how to build a roster starting with the most important positions on the field only disagreement I see is when that once in a lifetime guy comes along I would have a hard time turning that away because I need to fill a premium spot. Then we can also start looking at FA to fill premium spots as well from teams that are in such cap hell they simply can't afford to pay the guys. Of if you are the Idiot Dolphins and trade away premium position players like its going out of style. Lost of moving parts for a GM to deal with and I prefer build with the draft get your team right there contending for a SB and then at that stage maybe make the one big FA splash to get ya over the hump. Trying to build from scratch with FA like Idiot MAcc is not and never will be the answer.

This is what I come to this place to talk about. Good conversation so far. 

What I'll add is there nerdy aspect of this. So I think already you have accepted positional value to a degree. Earlier you stated that at HOF level Ed Reed is not beating out at pass rusher, LT, or QB. That essentially is what positional value represents. 

But let's add another wrinkle to accommodate for the draft where you have imperfect information and lack the benefit of hindsight. Every selection falls under a probability curve where there is chance to be hall of famer to a total bust. The question becomes does a very good corner, think 80th percentile, (just using this position as an example) give you more than the 99th percentile safety. Think tredavious white/Marlon Humphrey vs Derwin James. I think you'd go with the former and maybe add Eric Reid as an FA. If you do the reverse the corner market drop off is more significant.

[Philc1]

10 hours ago, Riggins said:

There are no low value positions, that is a myth, 

SS, RB and ILB

[nico002]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Macc was supposed to be billed as a talent evaluator.  He and a team of scouts spend nearly a full calendar year assessing these prospects while the HC is busy coaching his team.

It is up to the GM to make the proper picks, regardless of the HC's wishes.  Period.  That's what GM's get paid big money to do.  

Mahomes went 10 when in retrospect he should have been the #1 pick and the most desired prospect since maybe ever. No one saw mahomes coming to this degree.

[Bleedin Green]

4 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Macc was supposed to be billed as a talent evaluator.  He and a team of scouts spend nearly a full calendar year assessing these prospects while the HC is busy coaching his team.

It is up to the GM to make the proper picks, regardless of the HC's wishes.  Period.  That's what GM's get paid big money to do.  

Bingo!  There's nothing more ridiculous than excusing a GM because of some baseless assumption that they simply didn't do their job, and instead had someone else doing it for them.  That only makes the GM more incompetent, not less.

Not to mention, those claims of every Jets HC really having been the GM-in-hiding all along are really just JN fan-fiction with little evidence to ever support it anyway.

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

Bingo!  There's nothing more ridiculous than excusing a GM because of some baseless assumption that they simply didn't do their job, and instead had someone else doing it for them.  That only makes the GM more incompetent, not less.

Not to mention, those claims of every Jets HC really having been the GM-in-hiding all along are really just JN fan-fiction with little evidence to ever support it anyway.

 

Except Mangini.  That one was totally true. 

[pdxgreen]

George.  Sign the deal and keep the wife happy.  You rolled doubles there.

[slats]

3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Except Mangini.  That one was totally true. 

Point missed. 

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, slats said:

Point missed. 

I know but I had to.  It's the slats/Dom bat signal!

[Philc1]

13 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Except Mangini.  That one was totally true. 

Amazing how no one gives Mangini credit for drafting Gholston, Schlegel and trading up for Kellen Clemens

 

Mangini is the greatest DAMMIT

 

[Riggins]

22 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Macc was supposed to be billed as a talent evaluator.  He and a team of scouts spend nearly a full calendar year assessing these prospects while the HC is busy coaching his team.

It is up to the GM to make the proper picks, regardless of the HC's wishes.  Period.  That's what GM's get paid big money to do.  

Jets organizational structure was set up as a 50 / 50, I think Douglas made sure he got 100%.  That said, most GM's missed it on Mahomes, Bills actually traded the pick to the Chiefs, Mahomes talent was obvious to the chiefs coach and that is why they traded up for him.

[Riggins]

22 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Tell NFL GMs that, because when you follow the money, your statement is 100 % false.  Not a myth at all.

 

Position	Franchise Tag	Transition Tag
QB	$26,824,000	$24,837,000
WR	$17,865,000	$15,680,000
DE	$17,788,000	$15,184,000
CB	$16,338,000	$14,197,000
DT	$16,126,000	$13,143,000
LB	$15,828,000	$13,767,000
OL	$14,781,000	$13,505,000
S	$11,441,000	$9,860,000
TE	$10,607,000	$9,117,000
RB	$10,278,000	$8,483,000
ST	$5,019,000	$4,559,000

 

And the median S, TE and RB salaries are even further away from the top paid positions.  

Impact is determined by performance on the field, not position, again you are buying into a myth, the weakest link theory proves it.

[slats]

1 minute ago, Riggins said:

Impact is determined by performance on the field, not position, again you are buying into a myth, the weakest link theory proves it.

Safety and RB are low valued positions because of the nearly unlimited supply of guys who are 5'10-6'1", 200-230 lb. and run in the 4.55 range looking for a job in the NFL. The dropoff from a great RB or safety to an average one is not nearly as significant as the dropoff in all of the positions listed above with maybe the exception of guard. TE's get a raw deal, IMHO. I'm not putting major resources into either position, neither draft picks or money. Mac spent the #6 overall on a safety, which is dumb. Paying him would've compounded the dumbness. Joe Douglas corrected the mistake with his trade. Expect Bell to be shopped then cut for similar reasons. 

[Jetsfan80]

51 minutes ago, Riggins said:

Impact is determined by performance on the field, not position, again you are buying into a myth, the weakest link theory proves it.

Performance on the field is impacted by position and the duties a player performs.  If your primary job is to tackle RB's and that's all you're really good at, you're never going to be as valuable as the guy who tackles the QB.  

Weakest link theory doesn't actually work in football.  You can hide bad SS play.  You can't hide bad Left Tackle play.  

[Jetsfan80]

56 minutes ago, Riggins said:

Jets organizational structure was set up as a 50 / 50, I think Douglas made sure he got 100%.  That said, most GM's missed it on Mahomes, Bills actually traded the pick to the Chiefs, Mahomes talent was obvious to the chiefs coach and that is why they traded up for him.

That's no excuse for passing on Watson.  Watson checked every box, and the Jets needed a QB.  Completely inexcusable.

[Losmeister]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Performance on the field is impacted by position and the duties a player performs.  If your primary job is to tackle RB's and that's all you're really good at, you're never going to be as valuable as the guy who tackles the QB.  

Weakest link theory doesn't actually work in football.  You can hide bad SS play.  You can't hide bad Left Tackle play.  

like we could hide some of the leagues worst play at center the last 2 years

[Losmeister]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

That's no excuse for passing on Watson.  Watson checked every box, and the Jets needed a QB.  Completely inexcusable.

we go with mclown...  ffs....

sad but true sams 1st 2 years are worse thna mclowns 2017

[Riggins]

2 hours ago, slats said:

Safety and RB are low valued positions because of the nearly unlimited supply of guys who are 5'10-6'1", 200-230 lb. and run in the 4.55 range looking for a job in the NFL. The dropoff from a great RB or safety to an average one is not nearly as significant as the dropoff in all of the positions listed above with maybe the exception of guard. TE's get a raw deal, IMHO. I'm not putting major resources into either position, neither draft picks or money. Mac spent the #6 overall on a safety, which is dumb. Paying him would've compounded the dumbness. Joe Douglas corrected the mistake with his trade. Expect Bell to be shopped then cut for similar reasons. 

Are you talking value as in money or to a team on the field ? I can name instances where a RB was MVP for a team throughout post season and  MVP winning the Super Bowl

 more than one. - kinda like Bavaro winning a SB MVP and becoming a legend, low value legend ? lol

 

 

 

 

 

 

[slats]

1 minute ago, Riggins said:

Are you talking value as in money or to a team on the field ? I can name instances where a RB was MVP for a team throughout post season and winning the Super Bowl

because of this player, more than one. - kinda like Bavaro winning a MVP and becoming a legend, low value legend ? lol

Running backs used to be drafted #1 overall, too, while offensive linemen made a fraction of what they made, but that's changed completely since Mark Bavaro won a Super Bowl MVP award. Now it's unusual for RBs to go in the first round and they make chump change compared to an OT. Why? Because the league figured out that RBs are essentially interchangeable as long as you have a solid offensive line.  

[Smashmouth]

On 8/5/2020 at 2:29 AM, predator_05 said:

TE can be a difference-maker, but they take a while to develop. Have you ever seen a TE make an impact as a rookie? It's impossible. It's a multifaceted position, so they have a bigger learning curve. 

Teams don't have the patience. Good TEs can be found much later in drafts, see: Sharpe, Witten, Gates, Graham etc. Kittle and Kelce weren't day 1 picks. 

You know whats funny ...and keep in mind there are a lot of ways to look at this debate ...but we call WR's Premium positions We also call the QB a premium position and rightfully so But a team with neither at an ultra high level can and usually do win SB's. 

For instance if you have a team that can run the football, control the clock, and beat your face in with defense Like the Jets of 09 10 the R.avens of the past who won two with running and defense also some of the Tampa teams . Last year we saw some of that coming back only because the only way to beat an elite QB is with running the ball controlling the clock and playing defense. Even those type teams like the Giants and Cowboys of the early to mid 90's were able to beat the elite offenses of the Bills simply by controlling the clock . The Bills had and elite OL and Elite RB Elite WR's and an Elite TE they were one of the pioneers of the high flying run and shoot offenses yet the ball control teams always beat them. Even this year if the Niners would have stuck with the run, like they should have vs KC, Mahomes would have never had a chance since he would have been on the sidelines. 

The running ball control offenses that do it well with great defense will ALWAYS beat the elite offenses. Other than KC who was the last team to lead the league in offense have what amounted to a bad defense and win the SB ? Any SB for that matter . It was mostly the great defensive teams with good solid all around offenses that win SB's so in that respect I think way too much attention goes to WR's . In a perfect world if you gave me a team built like the Cowboys of the early 90's I would take that team every time cause they play defense and they  won games by simply wearing their opponents down with a great OL and a RB that always ran you down in the 4th Quarter rather than trying to score 35 points a game. Since I live in Dallas since 92 I used to watch Emmitt Smith have 50 yards rushing going into the 4th quarter then run the ball down your throat in the 4th and end up with 125 yards on the day. If that's not premium and elite then I don't know what is. 

I hope this year our OL which now on paper may be capable of ramming the ball down peoples throats with a bunch of tough WR's not pussys like Robbie and 2 very solid capable TE's with a good solid defense may make us think of 09 10 again only difference and its big is we now have Sam Darnold not Mark Sanchez. Yeah Sanchez played ok in the playoffs but even with that hes no Sam Darnold the PREMIUM Sam Darnold

 

[#27TheDominator]

4 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

That's no excuse for passing on Watson.  Watson checked every box, and the Jets needed a QB.  Completely inexcusable.

He didn't check the twitter radar gun!

[Riggins]

3 hours ago, slats said:

Running backs used to be drafted #1 overall, too, while offensive linemen made a fraction of what they made, but that's changed completely since Mark Bavaro won a Super Bowl MVP award. Now it's unusual for RBs to go in the first round and they make chump change compared to an OT. Why? Because the league figured out that RBs are essentially interchangeable as long as you have a solid offensive line.  

Barkley went number 2. in the league for a reason, and Derrick Henry was MVP of some very recent and impressive playoff victories, and Lamar Jackson is a RB who can also throw the football, and a TE for the Patriots dominated the league in a way we probably haven't seen a tight end dominate before, Wille Parker completely dominated a post season not all that long ago.

You don't need high priced RBs or draft them high, they just need to dominate.

Marshawn Lynch was the reason for the season in Seattle, no one else.

 

[Jetsfan80]

Update.  Niners and Kittle making progress.

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/george-kittle-49ers-making-progress-on-long-term-deal

George Kittle, 49ers 'making progress' on long-term deal

Published: Aug 12, 2020 at 04:19 PM

 

Nick Shook

Around The NFL Writer

 

The 49ers and George Kittle have yet to strike an agreement on a long-term deal, but they're getting closer.

NFL Network's Michael Silver reported the two sides are "making progress" on a long-term deal, which is on track to make Kittle the highest-paid tight end in league history.

Kittle, meanwhile, was irritated by internet rumors of an impending deal, responding to one report with a sarcastic tweet and blanked-face emoji:

Silver's report is more significant than two participants simply "making progress" because of just how far away the parties were a little over a month ago. Silver reported July 31 "a pretty significant disconnect philosophically" remained between the Niners and the star tight end, signaling the possibility of a drawn out negotiation process. Kittle viewed himself as more than a tight end, while the 49ers were more interested in simply making him the highest-paid tight end in the NFL.

The tight end market has essentially been stagnant since Jimmy Graham's whopper of a deal in 2014, with Cleveland's March signing of Austin Hooper just barely passing that mark. Passing such a mark wouldn't exactly make Kittle among the league's richest, even after he landed inside the top 10 of the most recent NFL Top 100.

Kittle is a catalyst in San Francisco, but it's fair to wonder just how much value a tight end possesses. It seems as if San Francisco has come around at least a little on how important he is to their future. Niners general manager John Lynch said on July 29 it was about "finding the right number" with Kittle's position and his contributions making that task "tricky."

This could all be solved fairly soon. Either way, it's going to mean San Francisco will be paying Kittle a whole lot more than his $2.133 million base salary for 2020.

[Philc1]

Figures.  Kittle is too good for the niners to just let go or trade.  He makes Garropolo better too