Playing a 4-3 - finally!

[WowOhWow]

I'm taking in all sorts of content (twitter clips, web, etc.) highlighting all the unsung great plays our defensive line has made so far this year (not just this game).

One clip had Franklin-Myers tackling Henry by pushing an o-lineman back into the ball carrier.

For seemingly the last 3 regimes we've had players that were miscast in our defensive scheme.  Now that we're in a 4-3 it seems our talent is starting to show.

Finally!

 

[redlichtie]

For too long we invested in elite DT’s to play in the 3-4 when you really just need space eaters at DE,(Rick Lyle, Shane Burton, DeVito) meanwhile we completely under invested in the edge and LB’s…the elite athletes and high draft picks were invested the wrong way round 

we might actually have the right players to fit the scheme and drafting the lies of Sherwood & Nasrildeen at least shows FO & coaching staff seem to be on the same page in as far as adding players that fit the scheme 

[jetstream23]

The thing I never liked about the 3-4 was trying to find these elusive Edge/OLB guys like Chandler Jones who are excellent pass rushers, can set the edge, can stop the run, can also cover a TE.... I mean, how do you find elite guys who can do all those things or at least be sufficient in all of them and then great at one or two?  They're like unicorns.

A traditional 4-3 doesn't allow the D to be as deceptive as a 3-4 (although it can certainly hide things).  Where DE's are responsible for straight-up rushing the passer you don't typically drop a guy like Carl Lawson, JFM or Huff into coverage.  You put your 4-3 OLB or a Safety on the RB or TE.  The 3-4 gives you more flexibility but again, you need some elite guys outside IMO.

The Saleh defense wins with two key ingredients - First, an organic pass rush and push with the front 4, not needing to bring extra guys up.  And second, a smart secondary that keeps it's eyes towards the QB knowing that the ball may have to come out earlier, quicker, and wobbly from a guy under duress by the front 4.  That's my opinion on how this is intended to work.  We don't need elite Revis type guys in the secondary because in theory the opposing QB should never have all day to throw and you don't need to cover WRs down the field for 20 seconds.

[Beerfish]

 They did what the fans have wanted for 10 years

NOW GET RID OF SUCKY ZONE BLOCKING!!!

[JohnnyLV]

The success of the 3-4 initially was that few teams ran it and the players that are best for it were viewed as tweeners. So it was fairly easy to get them. Now with many teams running it it is much more difficult. Personally I prefer the type of defense Saleh is running to the blitz happy 3-4s we have run for seemingly 15 years,

[genot]

Without an elite interior disruptor the 4-3 is much harder to have sustained success  with. We have one in QW. JFM, loves him. Bryce Huff loves him. Etc,etc.

[THE BARON]

There are different versions of the 34.  One gap vs two gap for example.  The compelling function of any 34 is flexibility and disguise.  A 34 can work like a 43.  With Rex, we often saw 7 guys on the line.  A base 43 usually does not have the provisions written into the scheme to allow such flexibility on the first and second level of the defense. 

Saleh's defense is more of a 4 -2 -5.   Instead of flexing the DE/LB as in the 34, they flex the DB and LB. 

It is a defense that is designed for the contemporary NFL that revolves around the passing game.  

It can and will work well as long as the players on the first level of the defense can get pressure with 4 guys and just as importantly, the second level of the defense need to go through the Kyle Clifton school of form tackeling.

You really need guys that can rush on the edges 1v1 and you need your second level defensive players to be sound tacklers. 

That being said, the 4 -2 -5 offers as much flexibility as any 3-4, just in a different way.

Totally up to the players to execute as the scheme itself is sound. 

[UnknownJetFan]

3 hours ago, redlichtie said:

For too long we invested in elite DT’s to play in the 3-4 when you really just need space eaters at DE,(Rick Lyle, Shane Burton, DeVito) meanwhile we completely under invested in the edge and LB’s…the elite athletes and high draft picks were invested the wrong way round 

we might actually have the right players to fit the scheme and drafting the lies of Sherwood & Nasrildeen at least shows FO & coaching staff seem to be on the same page in as far as adding players that fit the scheme 

I know we are talking here in this thread about the Dline and to some degree front 7 as far as JD getting the players and Saleh using them properly in his scheme, but the same credit for those 2 have to go out to the CBs, I mean when have you seen 5th, 6th rounders and UDFAs for Hall, MC II, Guidry, Echols, Dunn, etc. play at the level these guys are. After 4 weeks they are a top CB crew in the NFL.

[UnknownJetFan]

2 hours ago, THE BARON said:

There are different versions of the 34.  One gap vs two gap for example.  The compelling function of any 34 is flexibility and disguise.  A 34 can work like a 43.  With Rex, we often saw 7 guys on the line.  A base 43 usually does not have the provisions written into the scheme to allow such flexibility on the first and second level of the defense. 

Saleh's defense is more of a 4 -2 -5.   Instead of flexing the DE/LB as in the 34, they flex the DB and LB. 

It is a defense that is designed for the contemporary NFL with that revolves around the passing game.  

It can and will work well as long as the players on the first level of the defense can get pressure with 4 guys and just as importantly, the second level of the defense need to go through the Kyle Clifton school of form tackeling.

You really need guys that can rush on the edges 1v1 and you need your second level defensive players to be sound tacklers. 

That being said, the 4 -2 -5 offers as much flexibility as any 3-4, just in a different way.

Totally up to the players to execute as the scheme itself is sound. 

You just made me feel relieved after reading your 4-2-5 in that I was concerned that we just lost our WSLB to IR, but initially saw they said the last 2 games he only plated STs and it is because of what you are saying for the 4-2-5 that really likely 90%+ of the time(With CJM and Quincy Williams the 2 LBs) there has to be the 4-2-5 run since there are 3 WRs sets on all teams O's that much of the time so instead of the WSLB being a starter the slot CB is a starter. But, I assume anyway for that 10% of the time when the WSLB is on the field either Cashman would be brought out of IR this week(if we makes it through the week of practice without getting hurt again) or LB Dawkins brought up from the PS. Both play WSLB. And, it is nice to see this 4 Dline Defense doesn't depend on the WSLB for major Edge rush production as the DEs and 3 technique DT(QW) handle that.

[Doggin94it]

1 hour ago, UnknownJetFan said:

I know we are talking here in this thread about the Dline and to some degree front 7 as far as JD getting the players and Saleh using them properly in his scheme, but the same credit for those 2 have to go out to the CBs, I mean when have you seen 5th, 6th rounders and UDFAs for Hall, MC II, Guidry, Echols, Dunn, etc. play at the level these guys are. After 4 weeks they are a top CB crew in the NFL.

In Seattle and SF. That's what this system is built for

[THE BARON]

16 hours ago, UnknownJetFan said:

You just made me feel relieved after reading your 4-2-5 in that I was concerned that we just lost our WSLB to IR, but initially saw they said the last 2 games he only plated STs and it is because of what you are saying for the 4-2-5 that really likely 90%+ of the time(With CJM and Quincy Williams the 2 LBs) there has to be the 4-2-5 run since there are 3 WRs sets on all teams O's that much of the time so instead of the WSLB being a starter the slot CB is a starter. But, I assume anyway for that 10% of the time when the WSLB is on the field either Cashman would be brought out of IR this week(if we makes it through the week of practice without getting hurt again) or LB Dawkins brought up from the PS. Both play WSLB. And, it is nice to see this 4 Dline Defense doesn't depend on the WSLB for major Edge rush production as the DEs and 3 technique DT(QW) handle that.

I dig 100 %.  Not time to panic with the recent injury.  They still have the manpower they need to pull it off.  Ironic that many fans including myself saw a surplus of players at the WR spot and a shortage at the DB spot.  When the games started, the WR's were not very impressive and the DB's have quietly been a real asset.  

[shuler82]

Given the need for a rotation of disruptive DL in this defense and that JFM and Fatukasi are FA in 2022 it will be interesting if JD opens up his purse strings. 

[slimjasi]

Imagine how good this pass rush would be with Lawson. 
 

his injury was such a bummer 

[rangerous]

i'm not going to claim i know a thing about defensive schemes.  it seems like the jets were never able to get an outside lb that could replace pace and, as others have said they kept drafting dt's over true edge rushers and olb's.  and we i look at olb's in a 3-4 i think about the olb being more of an edge rusher so why not go 4-3.  but it's never quite that simple.saleh and ulbrich are using sort of a 4-3 with large safeties occupying the olb spots.  the emphasis is on speed.

[Maynard13]

20 hours ago, THE BARON said:

There are different versions of the 34.  One gap vs two gap for example.  The compelling function of any 34 is flexibility and disguise.  A 34 can work like a 43.  With Rex, we often saw 7 guys on the line.  A base 43 usually does not have the provisions written into the scheme to allow such flexibility on the first and second level of the defense. 

Saleh's defense is more of a 4 -2 -5.   Instead of flexing the DE/LB as in the 34, they flex the DB and LB. 

It is a defense that is designed for the contemporary NFL that revolves around the passing game.  

It can and will work well as long as the players on the first level of the defense can get pressure with 4 guys and just as importantly, the second level of the defense need to go through the Kyle Clifton school of form tackeling.

You really need guys that can rush on the edges 1v1 and you need your second level defensive players to be sound tacklers. 

That being said, the 4 -2 -5 offers as much flexibility as any 3-4, just in a different way.

Totally up to the players to execute as the scheme itself is sound. 

Exactly. Which is a huge reason Saleh had JD draft like 10 DB's in the last draft.  We needed backup since the back end was porous as can be, but Saleh's vision is to get fast young kids flying all over the place.  Thus far, its taking hold even with numerous injuries on defense.   

[#27TheDominator]

This is their 3rd straight year in a base 4-3.  

1 hour ago, shuler82 said:

Given the need for a rotation of disruptive DL in this defense and that JFM and Fatukasi are FA in 2022 it will be interesting if JD opens up his purse strings. 

Agreed.  I would consider extending these guys now if we can do it fairly cheap. 

[THE BARON]

39 minutes ago, Maynard13 said:

Exactly. Which is a huge reason Saleh had JD draft like 10 DB's in the last draft.  We needed backup since the back end was porous as can be, but Saleh's vision is to get fast young kids flying all over the place.  Thus far, its taking hold even with numerous injuries on defense.   

Agree.  Just need to make sure the guys at the second and third level are technically sound tacklers.  A smaller/lighter weight professional level defensive player can indeed tackle a bigger guy.  A 200 lb. DB can tackle a 250 lb. ball carrier or WR/TE if he uses the right techniques.  The whole thing about not being big enough on the second and third level in that scheme is conventional thinking, but not actually well founded.   It all comes down to the guys on the field being coached up to that scheme.  That includes tackling. 

[rex-n-effect]

1 hour ago, rangerous said:

i'm not going to claim i know a thing about defensive schemes.  it seems like the jets were never able to get an outside lb that could replace pace and, as others have said they kept drafting dt's over true edge rushers and olb's.  and we i look at olb's in a 3-4 i think about the olb being more of an edge rusher so why not go 4-3.  but it's never quite that simple.saleh and ulbrich are using sort of a 4-3 with large safeties occupying the olb spots.  the emphasis is on speed.

This is probably not true but it seemed like the defense going back before sexy rexy had a strong DL and it became important for every GM after to keep up the tradition of building a run stuffing DL. There has always been a glaring hole in the defense roster. Sexy rexy cared about CBs and always got killed in the middle of the field so every defense after focused on MLB and safety with little focus on CB. This is the first time since 2011 the defense seems to have good pieces coming together across the defense. There's still work to be done on the roster. 

Crazy that an entire decade went by with incomplete plans for building the defense (and offense for that matter). That's why I give JD a lot of latitude with his poor decisions--there's so much that needs to be set on course on a fundamental level that a higher than preferred number of errors are going to occur.

[phill1c]

23 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

The thing I never liked about the 3-4 was trying to find these elusive Edge/OLB guys like Chandler Jones who are excellent pass rushers, can set the edge, can stop the run, can also cover a TE.... I mean, how do you find elite guys who can do all those things or at least be sufficient in all of them and then great at one or two?  They're like unicorns.

I think a 4-3 and a 3-4 are really pretty much the same. You mentioned Chandler Jones. He's a great DE, whether it be the 3-4 or the 4-3. your 4th LB in a 3-4 is your edge. So, whether you call that a OLB or a DE, it's pretty much the same. Especially when you consider that you're almost always rushing that 4th guy (and often more) in obvious passing situations.

What maybe the 3-4 does is allow you more flexibility when lining up that OLB/DE. But I think it's still just a Front Seven, no matter what the OLB/DE is called.

[Jetsfan80]

44 minutes ago, phill1c said:

I think a 4-3 and a 3-4 are really pretty much the same. You mentioned Chandler Jones. He's a great DE, whether it be the 3-4 or the 4-3. your 4th LB in a 3-4 is your edge. So, whether you call that a OLB or a DE, it's pretty much the same. Especially when you consider that you're almost always rushing that 4th guy (and often more) in obvious passing situations.

What maybe the 3-4 does is allow you more flexibility when lining up that OLB/DE. But I think it's still just a Front Seven, no matter what the OLB/DE is called.

 

3-4 LB's tend to be bigger and slower.  4-3 LB's tend to be smaller and quicker.  That's a pretty big difference.  

[Maynard13]

4 hours ago, THE BARON said:

Agree.  Just need to make sure the guys at the second and third level are technically sound tacklers.  A smaller/lighter weight professional level defensive player can indeed tackle a bigger guy.  A 200 lb. DB can tackle a 250 lb. ball carrier or WR/TE if he uses the right techniques.  The whole thing about not being big enough on the second and third level in that scheme is conventional thinking, but not actually well founded.   It all comes down to the guys on the field being coached up to that scheme.  That includes tackling. 

Case in point: Henry goes up the middle, is breaking for a big gain, cuts left at midfield, Guidry, all 190 pounds of him, flies in and takes him down single-handedly. Big big big tackle at a crucial point in the game. In fact, the Jets D did an amazing job tackling Henry Sunday.  

[carlito1171]

Another big difference is that in a base 3-4 you usually have to disguise and send blitzes to generate pressure, and the last 3 DC/HCs were big blitzes (Rex, Bowles, GW)......Fun to watch when the blitzes get home, but when they don't a competent QB can pick you apart. 

In the base 4-3 you usually generate most of your pressure with your front 4 and the LBs are either on cleanup duty on runs or in coverage. Saleh does a great job of mixing in blitzes and giving different looks but we can generate good pressure with our front 4(even minus Lawson). 

But like a poster mentioned already 4-3/3-4 is kind of a moot point nowadays because with all the 3WR sets teams use we mainly have to stay in a 4-2-5 anyways..... 

[phill1c]

17 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

3-4 LB's tend to be bigger and slower.  4-3 LB's tend to be smaller and quicker.  That's a pretty big difference.  

yeah, sure. Youre talking about, usually 5-10 pounds. I think you're talking about 3-4 defenses from the early 2000s and previously. the 3-4 has adapted to the responsibilities of defensing modern offenses. And I wouldn't exactly call Mosely or Williams small.

[Jet Nut]

17 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

3-4 LB's tend to be bigger and slower.  4-3 LB's tend to be smaller and quicker.  That's a pretty big difference.  

Really just this and the entire scheme being different, the way the front 3 , mid 4 and back 4 play.

Otherwise its exactly the same style of D

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, phill1c said:

yeah, sure. Youre talking about, usually 5-10 pounds. I think you're talking about 3-4 defenses from the early 2000s and previously. the 3-4 has adapted to the responsibilities of defensing modern offenses. And I wouldn't exactly call Mosely or Williams small.

Right, but isn't that the exact reason why Mosley still slimmed down a good bit this past offseason?  And prior to that, why a lot of JN wanted him traded?

I get that 3-4 defenses had to adapt but there's still quite a few key differences in responsibilities in the 2 types of front 7's.  It's not super easy to make the switch from 3-4 to 4-3.

[phill1c]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Right, but isn't that the exact reason why Mosley still slimmed down a good bit this past offseason?  And prior to that, why a lot of JN wanted him traded?

I get that 3-4 defenses had to adapt but there's still quite a few key differences in responsibilities in the 2 types of front 7's.  It's not super easy to make the switch from 3-4 to 4-3.

Nope, it's not. It's not THE SAME, hence the Jets jettisoning so many of their defensive personnel from last year to this year. But I would also say that there are significant differences in 3-4 defenses so that some of them may be closer to 4-3 and vice versa. I mean, the Flex defense, made popular by Tom Landry, was a 4-3 with alignments more like a 3-4. And so it goes...

My point is that Joe Douglass changed coaching and defensive coordinators and that is why some draft picks from his first draft might not be perfect fits for his current team/systems.