Get off Zach's Sac

[tfine]

The problem is the team grew faster than the QB when in the off-season we just wanted to see progress…maybe 7-8 wins now that we have a better record than we thought we expect the QB to catch up to the rest of the team….when you think about it..it’s really not fair to him if he’s not ready


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[Dunnie]

if he gets his ass handed to him on Sunday i dont know how anyone defends him. 

Yeah .. Buffalo's defense sucks.

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[Dunnie]

... guys have to stop saying he’s better than Flacco because 1. He’s not and 2. Flacco is terrible.

... Can we stop bringing Mike White into every conversation ?



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[Fantasy Island]

6 hours ago, hawk said:

I have no interest in being on Zachs Sack, or anything to do with it, if I'm being frank.

It's a inny, no moisture but hot none the less.

[Larz]

His production is somewhere between Jamarcus Russell and Josh Rosen 

only Eli manning came from that level and succeeded

is Zach Eli or Josh ?

[jamesr]

13 hours ago, derp said:

I think one of the things that confuses me is the idea that those pointing out criticisms of Wilson aren't rooting for his success.

I've been pretty openly concerned about his ability against pressure this season  - and all the way back to before he was drafted based on how good the BYU OL was. Early in the game Sunday, Wilson had a nice little play where he rolled away from pressure and hit Conklin. My reaction was excitement that maybe he was finding answers to the issues against pressure that I felt he'd had earlier in the season, not disappointment I might be wrong that he struggles against pressure and might not be able to overcome that. As the game went on, I was disappointed the issues against pressure cropped back up repeatedly, not excited I could come on here and complain about him.

I'm a fan of the New York Jets - I want the team to be good. Specifically, to win a Super Bowl while I'm still alive. This team has a lot of really nice pieces - the defense has been playing well, there are some nice pass catchers, the run game was awesome early in the season. The clearest path to that is Zach Wilson being a franchise QB. If he's not a guy who can have this team competing for Lombard trophies, then I want them to identify that quickly and move on.

Ultimately he plays the most important position in professional sports in the largest media market, and is playing for a team that's currently winning games instead of playing terribly in all facets like the last few years. He's going to be under the microscope. That's the nature of playing that position in general, that position for this franchise, and especially that position for this franchise when the team actually seems like they're headed into a window of being competitive.

Last year before he'd put any film out and when the rest of the team wasn't playing well it didn't matter quite as much. This year, that clock is ticking. 

I think there are different aspects of the "pointing out criticisms" which is what leads to the discussion / argument / eventual name calling. And it depends a lot on individual outlook / state of thinking.

There are some who believe that Zach has potential, promise, high ceiling, and that we have to stick with it and work at it for much longer to get to that ceiling.

There are some who believe that Zach has potential, promise, high ceiling, but the time that it will take to unlock it all is too far away and / or it is too unlikely to ever materialise. They see a good team "now" waiting for the good QB "sometime" ... and don't want the window on one to shut before the other opens.

There are some who believe that Zach does not have, or will not reach, that promised land and that we need to cut our losses and move on.

There are likely multiple other nuances that could be added to the above, but in general you have the optimism ("it'll all be fine one day"), the pessimism ("Zach sucks and always will") and various shades in between.

I also think there are some aspects of the fan base's expectations that are too simplistic and lead to more frustration. Progression in sports is not linear ... it's not as simple as "do all the good bits and don't do the bad bits". Sometimes when bad habits or technique are so badly ingrained you can't get rid of them between one game and the next. Footwork is probably a good example, you can't just "coach that out" in a week or two. As soon as the bullets start flying the old bad habits come back because it's all ingrained in the muscle memory, reflexes, reactions etc. Mid season is not a time to work on this stuff IF the player is still suiting up each game. There's only so much you can do. Having been through some sports coaching myself (different sport) I recall how frustrating it was ... everyone else was participating and having fun, I was off on one side working on boring drills for weeks, even months on end. But the end result was that I was able to raise my ability beyond those who were taking part each week. I wouldn't have got better without that "time out" as the pressure to compete was conflicting with the desire to improve.

Maybe the game last week was part of the overall theme of "got to go backward before you can go forward". There was some forward from Zach - he made quite a lot of nice throws that we hadn't seen so much of to date. When he was good he was very good. But when he was bad he was awful. He couldn't / wouldn't even throw it away correctly, and caused "neutral" plays to become big negatives, which then leads to more pressing and more bad decisions (holding on even longer etc). I can understand the frustration - time is running out to win and you don't want to keep sticking to the idea that you can just punt it away and maybe next possession will be better, especially when previous evidence suggests otherwise. 

This week will be very interesting to watch. First, does the game plan alter to limit the mistakes while also likely limiting the opportunities? Second, does Zach do anything different when things break down - throw it away sooner, run forward for two yards instead of backwards to try to make something out of nothing? It likely won't be a huge change - it's only been a week, with most practice time focusing on the game plan rather than ingrained behaviours etc - so expectations still need to be realistic. If it's another 120 yards / 0 TD / 0 TO performance, then we're pretty much back where we were. What about 200 / 1 / 1? Or 300 / 2 / 2? I could live with some INTs if they are the result of good plays by Buffalo / aggressive attempts by the Jets. But "gifted" INTs that come from boneheaded decisions are the real killers. If we can avoid those, then even if we lose it will be an encouraging sign, for the short term at least. 

[VJphillyfan]

All this hysteria over a qb who is 4-1 and playing excellent 

[Facts]

19 hours ago, T0mShane said:

 If you thought he was promising after the Steelers and Miami game, you should still feel like he’s a promising young QB

Wow we have such low standards.

This is what is considered "promising" nowadays.

Combined stats vs Steelers & Miami:

56%, 462 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT

 

[TheClashFan]

15 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Zach has 160 dropbacks, 14 throw-aways, 10 sacks.

Flacco had 165 dropbacks, 10 throwaways, 9 sacks. 

Those are interesting stats, but with the OL different almost from week to week so far this season, I'm not sure they really say that much.  Zach's stats include a stretch against very tough defenses, and 2 of those on the road, as you noted yourself in an earlier post.

BTW, I'm not a "Zach defender." I'm very skeptical about him....like you I think his ability to read defenses and quickly get a throw out is just not there most of the time and may never be.  Two of his 3 INT's this past Sunday were just terrible decisions, and he still has overthrow issues (like on the other INT) that are going to continue to yield INTs if he doesn't clean that up.

At the same time, I think the Jets are going to continue to fail at developing young QBs if they cannot put together a quality OL.  The Jets haven't had a truly good OL since Sanchez's first two years when the Jets went to the AFCCG with a young, "not good" QB.

 

[More Cowbell]

19 hours ago, LSJF said:

It's basic, if he fails we all fail, and what is the alternative, it's not so appealing...we all thought someone like Russell Wilson was gonna kill it with the Broncos...Or draft another youngster? Ehh ...He might be a bust, but I don't blame the Jets for being patient, for once it appears there is a plan...Maybe JD is looking in the just in case(he seems to be clever)

I just love it the way you are pontificating  to nobody in particular.  What we are doing is pointing out that Zach has not shown enough to this point. Would we like for the switch to flip and he starts stepping up into the pocket or running forward when he is about to be sacked instead of backwards? I mean that would be a start right. We all want Zach to do well, the thing is Zach is ranked near dead last in the league at his position. It isn't  often a QB who is ranked this poorly for two seasons suddenly  makes a leap, but we will see. I for one want Zach to start all remaining games this season. We sink or swim but if we sink, Zach needs to be challenged for the starting job next year.

[Biggs]

18 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

At some point obviously you want your team to win and the young QB to be great. Problem is now that we have a pretty solid team with good depth the QB still has not shown up. I don't think anyone wants Zach to fail so its more about the threads asking people to be positive when they are watching terrible QBing that's the problem . I see the flashes but flashes don't produce consistent QB play and you can't let flashes dictate who plays in the games which come down to winning or losing. With Really good QB play this team is probably 7-1

The team is 4 and 1 with Zach starting.  The team looked like a 3 to 4 win team under Flacco.  The team didn't look pretty decent unltil Zach became the starter and sucked so much we have to start Mike White who was picked 4 times by Buffalo last year. 

 

 

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, Facts said:

Wow we have such low standards.

This is what is considered "promising" nowadays.

Combined stats vs Steelers & Miami:

56%, 462 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT

Bruh it was "night and day" progress are you even a QB analyst

[56mehl56]

19 hours ago, TommyT said:

I do not blame Zach, however I do blame a coaching staff thinking he was ready. To me he needed to sit from day one. They should have brought in a Minchew type player and have him wait it out.

Sitting behind a Vet journeyman - while everything on the team was brand new ( coaches, systems, schemes and players) made no sense, yet once a week we keep seeing this drivel getting tossed out .  If the Jets had an established HC, OC , schemes , yes then maybe sitting behind a Vet may have been marginally beneficial . 

[cat999]

1 hour ago, Facts said:

Wow we have such low standards.

This is what is considered "promising" nowadays.

Combined stats vs Steelers & Miami:

56%, 462 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT

 

Yes it was actually.  With only 57 attempts, that's an 8.1 YPA which is excellent.  After a rough start at Pittsburgh, he played great in the 4th Q and had a good game against Miami.  Some of the analytics nerds (not PFF) who break down every Wilson throw are worth checking out as stats alone don't always tell the story.

It's the last 2 weeks in particular where he's been bad.  Who knows if he and the staff can correct it, but after his second start this season, things were trending up.  Time is running out, but he has 'flashed'.

 

[56mehl56]

19 hours ago, undertow said:

No one should be humiliated but yes some of you are acting like children. lol

Shudder the thoughts of you being the one sitting at the adults table . 

[Ron Rico]

1 hour ago, Facts said:

Wow we have such low standards.

This is what is considered "promising" nowadays.

Combined stats vs Steelers & Miami:

56%, 462 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT

 

His best performance this year was against the Packers. 

he threw for 110 yards. ?

[56mehl56]

17 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Zach has 160 dropbacks, 14 throw-aways, 10 sacks.

Flacco had 165 dropbacks, 10 throwaways, 9 sacks. 

Big difference 3 games vs 5 . And as absurd as it sounds Flacco played behind a more stable version of the Oline.  Getting Brown back helps but losing AVT, Mitchell and Fant has created a problem.  

[Smashmouth]

4 minutes ago, Coquito said:

His best performance this year was against the Packers. 

he threw for 110 yards. ?

I don't know whether to cry or puke

[56mehl56]

13 hours ago, Dunnie said:

Yeah .. Buffalo's defense sucks.

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Yeah what are they 1-7 or something like that , Jets favored by 13 too . 

[FidelioJet]

21 hours ago, LSJF said:

How brilliant, instead of getting pumped for a game vs. the Bills (which we are obvious underdogs,) we instead keep rehashing the same tired Zach threads...Like bitching about it is really going to do something, you know like the "sell the team Woody threads ". If you think Zach is a bust, what do you think the team should do...put in White, Streveler, wouldn't we be the picture of stability (sarcasm) . If the JETS demoted him now, they would be the same joke they have always been, by showing patience and hoping for growth in both QBing and Coaching  

                                        (hold on gotta take a toke............................)

                                         

 

Ahhh what was i saying...

                                           

 

Maybe the best course of action is to actually root for his success, wouldn't be the wise, mature grown up thing to do?  If he doesn't take the second year leap end of the season, then draft somebody, Zach is still on a rookie deal next year...What Veteran QB is worth a crap to bring here? Geno(GTFOH)...David Carr(really?).  he's 4-1 this year coming off a real crappy game, who knows maybe that's rock bottom because he was ok in the other games, maybe now he gets off the mat.iWe've seen flashes, even last week he hit Conklin with beautiful pass for a TD..His dive into the endzone for a TD..maybe Lafleur should call some plays that work for the players he has...

                                                 In short: Get off Zach's Sac...

What you’re missing here is many if these Jet fans are happy about Zach’s failures.   
Their egos far surpass their fandom.   Their relentless attacks, since pre-draft, brings glory to them when Zach plays poorly.  

[Ron Rico]

Just now, 56mehl56 said:

Yeah what are they 1-7 or something like that , Jets favored by 13 too . 

Poor Zach. It's not fair.

[Ron Rico]

1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

What you’re missing here is many if these Jet fans are happy about Zach’s failures.   
Their egos far surpass their fandom.   There relentless attacks, since pre-draft, make it that it bring glory to them when Zach plays poorly.  

Logical fallacy.

[slimjasi]

6 minutes ago, Coquito said:

His best performance this year was against the Packers. 

he threw for 110 yards. ?

LOL, what? 

I'd say he was clearly better against both Pitt and Miami. 

[FidelioJet]

Just now, Coquito said:

Logical fallacy.

Fact. 

[Ron Rico]

Just now, FidelioJet said:

Fact. 

You're only embarrassing yourself. 

[FidelioJet]

Just now, Coquito said:

You're only embarrassing yourself. 

Such a bad take for so many reasons.  

[Ron Rico]

Just now, FidelioJet said:

Such a bad take for so many reasons.  

There you go, again.

[56mehl56]

9 minutes ago, Coquito said:

His best performance this year was against the Packers. 

he threw for 110 yards. ?

Logical fallacy . 

[Ron Rico]

7 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

LOL, what? 

I'd say he was clearly better against both Pitt and Miami. 

He didn't throw any INT's against the Packers. You're right, though, about Miami. 

66.7 CMP

210 Yards

O INT's

If he brings his A game on Sunday, the Bills go down hard.

[Ron Rico]

1 minute ago, 56mehl56 said:

Logical fallacy . 

You clearly don't understand what a logical fallacy is.

[56mehl56]

Just now, Coquito said:

You clearly don't understand what a logical fallacy is.

Umm - Coquito ? 

[slimjasi]

3 minutes ago, Coquito said:

He didn't throw any INT's against the Packers.

So what? He didn't throw any against Denver, either. 

The best moment of his career has easily been his 4th quarter in Pittsburgh, IMO. 

[Ron Rico]

Just now, slimjasi said:

So what? He didn't throw any against Denver, either. 

The best moment of his career has easily been his 4th quarter in Pittsburgh, IMO. 

We're doing this by quarter, now? Really?

[undertow]

25 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Shudder the thoughts of you being the one sitting at the adults table . 

Shudder the thoughts?  You mean shudder at the thought?  The thoughts do not shudder....plus I always make people shiver in fear.

 

[slimjasi]

12 minutes ago, Coquito said:

We're doing this by quarter, now? Really?

Well, when it's the 4th Q, yes. 

Wilson's two 4th quarter drives combined with a huge interception on defense won us that game.