Polar Opposites in Organization philosophy

[GangGreened]

Lol I know more than one Steelers fan that wants Tomlin gone yesterday 

[Jet Nut]

5 minutes ago, Coquito said:

Which begs the question... why don't they?

Because they have a history of letting their HCs coach?  Noll, Cowher and Tomlin.  From the steel curtain to 2022.  Continuity works, starting over every couple of years never does.  

[Ron Rico]

I'm just glad I was able to take all the heat off the Zach apologists and replace them as the most hated man on JN. 

[Ron Rico]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

Because they have a history of letting their HCs coach?  Noll, Cowher and Tomlin.  From the steel curtain to 2022.  Continuity works, starting over every couple of years never does.  

Yup.

[derp]

1 hour ago, Coquito said:

Agree, but we are never going to stop hearing about "what if" and Trevor Lawrence. That was almost 3 seasons ago. It's a losers mindset. 

I suppose you can make the statement the Lawrence stuff is a losers mindset, but the Steelers aren’t a useful comparison there.

Again, as you said the Steelers haven’t had a losing record under Tomlin. That Jets team was 0-13 before winning two of their last three games. That’s not something the Steelers deal with so one of their fans isn’t going to even relate to the idea.

A team that won late in the season to worsen their draft pick but then benefitted in the long run would be a better example to counter the Lawrence idea. 

I guess furthermore, I’d get saying tanking is a losers mindset if the Jets lost games in that scenario and didn’t benefit. They actually won a couple of games. To me that’s the opposite of tanking.

I guess to flip it back at you, how do you think the Jets have benefitted from winning those two games in the past two seasons? Do you think having a “winners mindset” in those two games under Adam Gase has made things meaningfully better than if they’d lost one and had Lawrence instead of Zach Wilson?

To be clear I’m not pro tanking, but I also don’t see a benefit from having won those football games. I don’t think those ideas are mutually exclusive.

[JonMcgraw38]

2 minutes ago, Coquito said:

Which begs the question... why don't they?

It all stems from the great teams of the 70s. A lot of great coaches and scouts worked for them as they wanted to learn from Chuck Knoll and get that on their resume. That continued with Cowher and LeBeau. 

Tomlin was an outsider who put his ego aside and learned the Steelers system which is far different than the Dungy/Tampa2 scheme he was brought up with. All of this apps makes it real easy on their scouts. They know which players will fit their scheme and it’s why they are so successful.  
 

Conversely, the Jets don’t have an identity. They hire coaches who excelled as coordinators because they were working with the right talent for the system they know how to run. They try to install their system here even though they don’t have the players to run it and results aren’t good. Usually they get a draft class or two to try to get players that fit their scheme and then are fired. The new coach is hired and has players that don’t fit his scheme. Wash, rinse, and repeat. 

Compare a guy like Saleh vs a guy like Daboll. Saleh comes in and immediately installs the 49ers offense and defense. Daboll actually coached the team and built a system that fits the talent on the team. That’s coaching.

[FTL Jet Fan]

15 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

No one actually knows that if they make it to the playoffs they’re going against doctors diagnosis and playing him at risk is all I’m saying.  It’s not rumor it’s guessing ?

Ok. DM if you like. 

[Dcat]

22 minutes ago, Coquito said:

You don't see the irony in the fact that I didn't call anyone out specifically, yet here you are, over and over, exclusively attacking me. 

Oh please.  Your message was loud and clear.  Just stop already. Jets fans are the most loyal anywhere, supporting a losing team in a City where you have another, more popular choice.  Pittsburgh has a winning tradition. There's no other team to root for there.   Of course there is less acrimony with those fans. They have multiple superbowl wins with many more HoF players in their history beyond almost all other teams in the NFL.  What a team you picked to compare the horrible culture of the Jets to.  How convenient of you.   

For pete's sake, just recognize that it all starts and ends with winning.  That's what establishes "culture".  You have the causal relationship completely backwards. 

Now that the Steelers are no longer a lock to be a winning team, you can see the chips in the cracks same as any other team in the NFL and its fans.  Your choice is to single out the Jets as a "bad culture".  None of this would be relevant to you if this were a winning team.

In the event I am wrong and I misinterpreted your agenda here, then I respectfully apologize.  I just don't get why you even started this thread. 

Go Jets.

[Maynard13]

14 minutes ago, Lith said:

Yup.  If we actively tanked a season, we would not be winning games in December in past seasons that cost us draft position.  We have had bad teams that lost a lot of games, but I don't think we tanked.

The very first NY Jets fan 

 

[Ron Rico]

1 minute ago, derp said:

 

1 minute ago, derp said:

I guess to flip it back at you, how do you think the Jets have benefitted from winning those two games in the past two seasons? Do you think having a “winners mindset” in those two games under Adam Gase has made things meaningfully better than if they’d lost one and had Lawrence instead of Zach Wilson?

It's funny, Jet Nut said to me that there is no way of knowing the Jets would have beat the Vikings if Streveler played a series in the red zone, and he's absolutely right. Ryan begat Bowles and Bowles begat Gase, who's fate was probably already sealed before beating the Rams and winning more games than the Jags that year. Idziz begat MacGags and MacGags begat JD and JD was not compelled to draft a QB with that number 2 pick. It's not that we didn't get Lawrence, it's that we took Zach. 

And I hold fast to my assessment that it is a losers mindset to continue to harp on that. It didn't just come down that one game. Not getting Lawrence is not the reason the team sucked for 12 years prior to the 2021 draft. 

 

[Ron Rico]

7 minutes ago, JonMcgraw38 said:

It all stems from the great teams of the 70s. A lot of great coaches and scouts worked for them as they wanted to learn from Chuck Knoll and get that on their resume. That continued with Cowher and LeBeau. 

Tomlin was an outsider who put his ego aside and learned the Steelers system which is far different than the Dungy/Tampa2 scheme he was brought up with. All of this apps makes it real easy on their scouts. They know which players will fit their scheme and it’s why they are so successful.  
 

Conversely, the Jets don’t have an identity. They hire coaches who excelled as coordinators because they were working with the right talent for the system they know how to run. They try to install their system here even though they don’t have the players to run it and results aren’t good. Usually they get a draft class or two to try to get players that fit their scheme and then are fired. The new coach is hired and has players that don’t fit his scheme. Wash, rinse, and repeat. 

Compare a guy like Saleh vs a guy like Daboll. Saleh comes in and immediately installs the 49ers offense and defense. Daboll actually coached the team and built a system that fits the talent on the team. That’s coaching.

Great post. I think you made a much better, a more coherent argument for what I was saying. I shouldn't have used any personal anecdotes. I could have just said what you just said here, and made the same point. 

[Beerfish]

The Jets don't tank, .....tanking is beneficial.

The National media just KILLED Doug Peterson for pulling Jalen Hurts in a meaningless final game of the season a few years back vs Washington in a lost season.  The Eagles lost the game and thus were picking 6th, if they win that game they pick 10th.

They end up trading down with Miami to 12 and getting and extra 1st rounder the next year and then were able to pick Devonta Smith AND get a 1st rounder.  This first rounder ended up becoming jordan davis.

If the jets tanked they would have had matt ryan, or nic bosa or trevor lawrence.

The jets have never tanked.

[carlito1171]

2 hours ago, Coquito said:

Ran into a friend of mine who's a Steelers fan and talked a little football. Key points:

"Tanking the season". He said that this is a losers mentality. In fact, the Steelers priority is have a winning season. Tomlinson has never had a losing season as the Steelers HC. Seriously, that is where the organization, top to bottom, is at. They are not talking about firing the coach, the GM, replacing the QB, or intentionally losing games for a draft pick. Then we talked about Pickett, and he told me Pickett has had two concussions this year. I did not know that. I know about Tua, but I didn't know about Pickett.

This has to stop. All of these young QB's already compromised by concussions. The NFL cannot continue like this. Get rid of 4 and 5 WR sets. Spread offenses work with unique (rare) QB's. It's getting other QB's killed coming out of college. Bring back the Fullback position. Return to two back formations. Keep a bodyguard back there to pick up the blitz. 

Anyway it was just amazing how different two 7-8 teams thinks, and this is a team the Jets actually beat. I was actually pretty embarrassed to think about it.

The Jets have never actively tanked so I don't get that point.....

[Fantasy Island]

1 hour ago, Barry McCockinner said:

You realize it's fans talking about these things and not the organization, right? What is this?

Jet fans know infinitely more about picking players than the Jets organization over the past years.  
 

this Past draft was the first one that I didn’t exclaim WTF? 

[JonMcgraw38]

12 minutes ago, Coquito said:

Great post. I think you made a much better, a more coherent argument for what I was saying. I shouldn't have used any personal anecdotes. I could have just said what you just said here, and made the same point. 

Let me also say that I am in no way advocating keeping bad coaches in place. 

When you hire boobs like Saleh you see promising players like Becton and Mims have their careers derailed because they can’t adapt their scheme at all to highlight players strengths. 

When you hire boobs like Saleh if a player is drafted who you thought fit the scheme, but once you get him in the building you realize the scheme isn’t right for him that draft pick becomes unsalvageable

When you hire boobs like Saleh you prioritize players who fit the scheme and overpay them relative to their actual talent (see Laken Tomlin$on). 

When you hire boobs like Saleh good coaches exploit the scheme because they know he doesn’t have the acumen to adjust anything. 

[Ron Rico]

Thought precedes action.

If all of your thoughts are negative, your present and future will be a reflection of that, as sure as the sun rises in the east. 

I believe thoughts have energy/are an energy. 

Dark thoughts, dark energy.

We wanted Trevor Lawrence so bad that dark energy compelled JD to take Zach, to force something and compensate instead of taking Sewell. 

This cycle will continue. It won't stop because you won't stop. The future doesn't get better until the past is buried.

[Beerfish]

Pittsburgh and their coaching continuity is also over blown.  The have had franchise QBs for many of their years.

Also some coaches get way too much credit imo, Bill cowher for one.   Took him like 14 years to win a super bowl after a lot of underachievement in the playoffs.

[JonMcgraw38]

2 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Pittsburgh and their coaching continuity is also over blown.  The have had franchise QBs for many of their years.

Also some coaches get way too much credit imo, Bill cowher for one.   Took him like 14 years to win a super bowl after a lot of underachievement in the playoffs.

I never viewed Pittsburgh as an overly QB dependent team. Ben is a hall of famer, but never was an MVP level player. Their great years were still built on defense and running game. 

Green Bay has obviously been a QB dependent franchise with Favre and Rodgers. Don’t know what will happen to them once they get an average guy in the fold. 

[carlito1171]

11 minutes ago, Coquito said:

We wanted Trevor Lawrence so bad that dark energy compelled JD to take Zach, to force something and compensate instead of taking Sewell. 

So our thoughts led to the football Gods smiting us and rewarding the Jags when they, as an organization actively tanked to get him, and we didnt.....

Cool story bro, tell some more! 

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, Coquito said:

Back when we played them, they were potentially a 3 or 4 win team. They could have easily tanked this season. But the organization, top to bottom (owner to fans) would rather have a HC who never lost a season than blow that record for a draft pick. 

That's a sea change in culture and attitude. 

Cool.  Maybe that’s partly why they haven’t won much of anything of late, lol.  

Hovering a little over .500 every year is no-man’s land and how they ended up with sh*tty Kenny Pickett.

[Dcat]

4 minutes ago, carlito1171 said:

So our thoughts led to the football Gods smiting us and rewarding the Jags when they, as an organization actively tanked to get him, and we didnt.....

Cool story bro, tell some more! 

the entire thought of the Jets "tanking" has nothing to do with the organization... It was an attack on those fans who were calling for the tank. 

The Jets never try to tank.  We've had more than a couple of opportunities to do so and move up in the draft but they haven't.  ENd results have been bad for the Jets.   The only ones ever calling for tanking were fans.   So to say that's part of the Jets' "culture" is just another veiled attack on the fans.  Tanking "culture".  LOL

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, Coquito said:

Agree, but we are never going to stop hearing about "what if" and Trevor Lawrence. That was almost 3 seasons ago. It's a losers mindset. 

And yet tanking properly would have gotten us a top 10 QB all the same.  

[GangGreened]

17 minutes ago, Coquito said:

Thought precedes action.

If all of your thoughts are negative, your present and future will be a reflection of that, as sure as the sun rises in the east. 

I believe thoughts have energy/are an energy. 

Dark thoughts, dark energy.

We wanted Trevor Lawrence so bad that dark energy compelled JD to take Zach, to force something and compensate instead of taking Sewell. 

This cycle will continue. It won't stop because you won't stop. The future doesn't get better until the past is buried.

Yeah, time to lock this dumb thread up.

[thebuzzardman]

2 hours ago, Coquito said:

No, I didn't get that vibe at all. I think fans generally reflect the organization itself. Jets are dysfunctional and schizophrenic, hence the "toxic" fan base.

Steelers fans were crapping all over the rookie qb and wr earlier in the year. Steelers are just run better, ther id better coaches, keep them, find wr talent all over the draft and they had big ben for 15 years or so

[derp]

44 minutes ago, Coquito said:

 

It's funny, Jet Nut said to me that there is no way of knowing the Jets would have beat the Vikings if Streveler played a series in the red zone, and he's absolutely right. Ryan begat Bowles and Bowles begat Gase, who's fate was probably already sealed before beating the Rams and winning more games than the Jags that year. Idziz begat MacGags and MacGags begat JD and JD was not compelled to draft a QB with that number 2 pick. It's not that we didn't get Lawrence, it's that we took Zach. 

And I hold fast to my assessment that it is a losers mindset to continue to harp on that. It didn't just come down that one game. Not getting Lawrence is not the reason the team sucked for 12 years prior to the 2021 draft. 

 

You’re entitled to hold fast to your assessment, but you didn’t answer my question. And the sentence you added at the end is both obvious and has nothing to do with the discussion, since I asked about after those games and you are referring to before.

So again, the Jets won two of their last three games in 2020. Intentionally, when it would’ve benefited them draft wise to lose. So a) how is that tanking or a losers mindset? and b) how has winning those games made the team better than they would’ve been if they lost one and now had Lawrence instead of Wilson?

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

They’ve also had a franchise qb for a while. Pretty big difference and everything becomes easier from a team building perspective so they can spare me the anti tanking talk. If pickett is not the guy, let’s see how cool the experience is if they are 8-8 every year. 

 

I imagine 8 wins will be a pipe dream with Pickett in that division most years, too.  

[Ron Rico]

Just now, derp said:

So again, the Jets won two of their last three games in 2020. Intentionally, when it would’ve benefited them draft wise to lose. So a) how is that tanking or a losers mindset? and b) how has winning those games made the team better than they would’ve been if they lost one and now had Lawrence instead of Wilson?

I tried to answer the question with a BIG PICTURE. Winning organizations never find themselves in this scenario. Losing organizations, do. 

The fact that you even have to ask this question, is exhibit A why this is a losing organization. 

The fact that they couldn't even do it "right" is exhibit B.

But since you are giving me a hypothetical, let me give you one:

The Jets get that first pick. They draft Lawrence.

You do realize the trajectory of the entire rest of that draft, changes, right? The butterfly effect goes into effect. Which changes the W-L record last year which means we probably don't have Sauce or Garret. Maybe we are right now 10-5. 

Do we win the SB this year? 

[derp]

Just now, Coquito said:

I tried to answer the question with a BIG PICTURE. Winning organizations never find themselves in this scenario. Losing organizations, do. 

The fact that you even have to ask this question, is exhibit A why this is a losing organization. 

The fact that they couldn't even do it "right" is exhibit B.

But since you are giving me a hypothetical, let me give you one:

The Jets get that first pick. They draft Lawrence.

You do realize the trajectory of the entire rest of that draft, changes, right? The butterfly effect goes into effect. Which changes the W-L record last year which means we probably don't have Sauce or Garret. Maybe we are right now 10-5. 

Do we win the SB this year? 

The draft may or may not change if the Jets draft Lawrence. Doesn’t change any of the needs. If the Jags draft Wilson at 2, everything else falls in line. Or everything else falls in line if the Jags draft Lance and the Niners draft Wilson.

The Jets have been a losing organization. Your argument seems circular at this point. They’ve had a losing mentality because they’ve been a losing organization? They wouldn’t need to consider what to do when 0-13 if they’d won games? There’s no lesson there beyond they should win, which, obviously they should win.

It lets you brush the what do you do when 0-13 and how does winning two games when 0-13 mean there’s a losers mentality under the table, but again if you’re not going to engage on stuff like that then your posts are basically just the Herm Edwards you play to win the game meme over and over.

Or on the other hand are you in this post saying that they’ve had a losing mentality by winning meaningless games while complaining the team has a losing mentality because they’re a losing organization? 

[Ron Rico]

1 minute ago, derp said:

The draft may or may not change if the Jets draft Lawrence. Doesn’t change any of the needs. If the Jags draft Wilson at 2, everything else falls in line. Or everything else falls in line if the Jags draft Lance and the Niners draft Wilson.

The Jets have been a losing organization. Your argument seems circular at this point. They’ve had a losing mentality because they’ve been a losing organization? They wouldn’t need to consider what to do when 0-13 if they’d won games? There’s no lesson there beyond they should win, which, obviously they should win.

It lets you brush the what do you do when 0-13 and how does winning two games when 0-13 mean there’s a losers mentality under the table, but again if you’re not going to engage on stuff like that then your posts are basically just the Herm Edwards you play to win the game meme over and over.

Or on the other hand are you in this post saying that they’ve had a losing mentality by winning meaningless games while complaining the team has a losing mentality because they’re a losing organization? 

Look, every action is preceded by a thought. Our thoughts really do create reality. Running hypothetical situations in our past and imagining a different outcome leads to madness. That's my final statement on the matter. Peace.

[Dcat]

13 minutes ago, Coquito said:

I tried to answer the question with a BIG PICTURE. Winning organizations never find themselves in this scenario. Losing organizations, do. 

The fact that you even have to ask this question, is exhibit A why this is a losing organization. 

The fact that they couldn't even do it "right" is exhibit B.

But since you are giving me a hypothetical, let me give you one:

The Jets get that first pick. They draft Lawrence.

You do realize the trajectory of the entire rest of that draft, changes, right? The butterfly effect goes into effect. Which changes the W-L record last year which means we probably don't have Sauce or Garret. Maybe we are right now 10-5. 

Do we win the SB this year? 

ummmm  so which is it...?  Is it a terrible culture is the cause of all the losing (as you started out) or is it losing leads to a terrible culture (my input later on... its all stems from winning or not).  You seem to be doing a 180 here.

[Barry McCockinner]

58 minutes ago, Fantasy Island said:

Jet fans know infinitely more about picking players than the Jets organization over the past years.  
 

this Past draft was the first one that I didn’t exclaim WTF? 

I sure as hell don't

[jgb]

15 hours ago, Rhg1084 said:

Well if we tanked properly we’d have Trevor Lawrence right now 

We even suck at sucking 

[Integrity28]

2 hours ago, Coquito said:

I can start another Zach Wilson thread, if you like?

?= ?

[Integrity28]

2 hours ago, Coquito said:

Wow.

And just like that I'm as sh*tty a poster as defensewinschampionships. 

I think the anger you express towards me is something you need to look inside yourself, because it's projection.

I'm a Jungian Analyst and I just hit the promised land of neurosis. 

@CTM level projection.

[Anthony Jet]

4 hours ago, Rhg1084 said:

Well if we tanked properly we’d have Trevor Lawrence right now 

We had to go 0fer to get Lawerence. 
 

1 that’s a terrible blemish on an organization 

2 no one on any team every wants go winless