Positive Report on Christian Hackenberg

[BCJet]

On 7/7/2017 at 5:55 PM, RoadFan said:

This again.  How many successful NFL quarterbacks had two years of poor college tape?  Somebody mentioned Favre.  Ok maybe, but even if that is a reasonable answer, Favre clearly turned the ball over constantly.  Anybody else?

I'll believe it when I see it from Hack... in live game action... when really big dudes are in his face.

Matt Hasselback is the best example.  I was at BC when he was there and watched every one of his games - there wasn't a single second where I thought he could play in the NFL, as he was horrendous in every phase of QB play.

The packers worked on his mechanics and footwork, and he developed (somehow) into a QB who played in a super bowl and  a pro-bowl.  

Yes it can happen, its rare, but it can

[long suffering jets fan]

On 7/7/2017 at 8:25 PM, detectivekimble said:

That's the key right there.  If the OL can't keep him clean, he'll revert back to the bad habits.  There's little doubt about the work ethic and ability to read defenses. 

Do I think that the OL can keep him clean, though?  No.

Agreed.  Lousy protection can make even the best QB look horrible and interception prone.  On the other hand solid protection and a strong run game will make a lesser QB look better than they are. 

It's really interesting that the Jets aside from Beacham didn't go out of their way to draft or sign OL's, except for Winters, Wes Johnson and Ijalana. 

Are the Jets more comfortable with their offensive line that their fans are?  They're certainly acting like it. 

[long suffering jets fan]

On 7/7/2017 at 5:55 PM, RoadFan said:

This again.  How many successful NFL quarterbacks had two years of poor college tape?  Somebody mentioned Favre.  Ok maybe, but even if that is a reasonable answer, Favre clearly turned the ball over constantly.  Anybody else?

I'll believe it when I see it from Hack... in live game action... when really big dudes are in his face.

Tom Brady wasn't all that at Michigan that's why he lasted till the 6th round, now look at him. 

[long suffering jets fan]

On 7/7/2017 at 7:29 PM, glenn31 said:

By the way, didn't that same offense win PSU a few games in their first post-Hack season? But yeah, let's blame the change in offense.

When Hackenberg was there the Penn State roster was depleted due to the Sandusky issue.  Their OL was notoriously bad and for a pro style (as opposed to dual threat QB) pass protection is everything.  Despite that Hackenberg stayed with the program.  In 2015, PSU had the full complement of scholarships to offer and were able to beef up the OL which showed improvement in 2016.  They also hired Joe Moorhead as Offense Coordinator, so it wasn't the same offense.  Trace McSorley is a dual threat QB, nothing like Hackenberg who is 6'4" vs. McSorley 6'0".

Don't get me wrong I think Hackenberg has accuracy issues to work out, but his Penn State situation was less than ideal.

[Joe Jets fan]

On 7/8/2017 at 0:03 AM, glenn31 said:

Then please refute my main idea, which is: "Prodigious talent (which true franchise QBs possess) transcends and trumps situations." And I gave 2 crystal clear examples within the QB position to back up my claim. And I'm assuming from your avatar that you may just be a PSU guy, but please, let's leave biases out of this. We're not talking about the NFL where talent is virtually the same across the board. This is college: If Hack was this special talent that I keep reading about from this site's resident delusionals, why couldn't he go off and let his natural talent dominate against LBs & DBs during those last 2 seasons? At least 80% of his competition he faced at PSU aren't ever going to sniff an NFL training camp, yet he couldn't even find success just based off of the fact that he's this ultra talented QB. Win or loss, a dominant college player who you know has a chance to make some noise at the pro level at the very least looks good in games, a la Cutler at Vandy in the mid 2000s. Hack has been out of high school now for 5 years, is going into his 2nd NFL season, and yet we're supposed to be "encouraged" that he's finally planting his lead foot towards his target???

And btw, I see now the excuse is that the winning season post-Hack is due to yet another change in offense. When is anything, ANYTHING that contributed to him being a collegiate 1 hit wonder ever his fault?

Lmfao.   If you really believe this then you should stop posting right now.  Just delete your account. 

[RoadFan]

4 hours ago, long suffering jets fan said:

Tom Brady wasn't all that at Michigan that's why he lasted till the 6th round, now look at him. 

This is at least partially wrong.  He was 2nd on the depth chart, but he came in multiple times in relief for whatever reason and would bring U of M back from behind to win games. 

 

[phill1c]

In the end, absent any real evidence either way, one can either be optimistic or pessimistic about a positive story.

I think it's obvious what most Jets fans who post here are likely to be...

Quite a turnoff, actually.

[Jimmy 2 Times]

42 minutes ago, RoadFan said:

This is at least partially wrong.  He was 2nd on the depth chart, but he came in multiple times in relief for whatever reason and would bring U of M back from behind to win games. 

 

He was the starter and played really well.  

They just kept benching him for Drew Hensen who was a highly touted recurit that they promised playing time to.

 

[long suffering jets fan]

1 hour ago, RoadFan said:

This is at least partially wrong.  He was 2nd on the depth chart, but he came in multiple times in relief for whatever reason and would bring U of M back from behind to win games. 

 

We are both right.  He did have some come back victories, but as you said was second string.  He was drafted because someone who was close to him had a relationship with the GM for the Pats I think and told him he would be a good late round pick. 

[jgb]

Matt Hasselback is the best example.  I was at BC when he was there and watched every one of his games - there wasn't a single second where I thought he could play in the NFL, as he was horrendous in every phase of QB play.
The packers worked on his mechanics and footwork, and he developed (somehow) into a QB who played in a super bowl and  a pro-bowl.  
Yes it can happen, its rare, but it can

Not here it can't


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[ChuckkieB]

8 hours ago, jgb said:

Not here it can't


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

This is true.  The universe will not let Hackenberg rise from the ashes and become a successful NFL QB for the Jets.  It would upset the football time continuum. 

[Sperm Edwards]

19 hours ago, long suffering jets fan said:

Agreed.  Lousy protection can make even the best QB look horrible and interception prone.  On the other hand solid protection and a strong run game will make a lesser QB look better than they are. 

It's really interesting that the Jets aside from Beacham didn't go out of their way to draft or sign OL's, except for Winters, Wes Johnson and Ijalana. 

craigslist long island the Jets more comfortable with their offensive line that their fans are?  They're certainly acting like it. 

Yeah, on top of releasing both of the two WRs that fully made the last starting QB look credible for a bit. The Jets' most experienced WR remaining, by far, has 19 career starts (a third of which coming in a hybrid TE role in which he caught like 20 passes). The next-most experienced "veteran" has 8 career starts as an undrafted rookie last year. Then add to that with a 4th yr TE with more off-field issues than on-field heroics, who has yet to live up to his draft slot, and a rookie 5th round TE who asked to be photoshopped in a Pats jersey right after getting drafted by the Jets. The rest are WRs that are mid-round rookies this year or 2nd year 7th-rd/undrafted players that barely got offensive snaps as rookies last year.

The OT signings are stabs in the dark in the hopes that one of these cheaper tackles pans out higher than their pay. Of course, in signing two of them to new deals at $8m and $5m, they're paying as much as one franchise LT, but why focus on such details? Lol. The $7.5m/yr RG extension is because the team painted itself into a corner by waiting too long to address. They're setting themselves up for a repeat of this same thing at center next year, as though it was the desired result.

Putting this supporting cast together isn't the "comfortable" collective act of a team that believes in its young QBs. It's what a team does when it wants the #1 pick in a QB-rich draft class the following year.

The only exception is paying Josh McCown $6m. Presumably they want the receivers to further develop this year, so they'll have to get playing time in with at least some passes thrown where it's expected (until he gets hurt).

[glenn31]

20 hours ago, Joe Jets fan said:

Lmfao.   If you really believe this then you should stop posting right now.  Just delete your account. 

Obviously some teams have better players than others, but is the talent gap between teams as large as college? There will never be an NFL matchup with a talent gap as large as Alabama vs Kentucky (or 90% of thier opponents if we're being real). As evidenced by how fast a team can go from the cellar in a division to a playoff spot in the parity-driven free agent era  [see our very own 1997 Jets... didn't (but should have) make the playoffs but the immediate turnaround was apparent with a roster similar to the 1996 Jets), I don't see how you think talent levels across teams is all that different?

[long suffering jets fan]

11 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Yeah, on top of releasing both of the two WRs that fully made the last starting QB look credible for a bit. The Jets' most experienced WR remaining, by far, has 19 career starts (a third of which coming in a hybrid TE role in which he caught like 20 passes). The next-most experienced "veteran" has 8 career starts as an undrafted rookie last year. Then add to that with a 4th yr TE with more off-field issues than on-field heroics, who has yet to live up to his draft slot, and a rookie 5th round TE who asked to be photoshopped in a Pats jersey right after getting drafted by the Jets. The rest are WRs that are mid-round rookies this year or 2nd year 7th-rd/undrafted players that barely got offensive snaps as rookies last year.

The OT signings are stabs in the dark in the hopes that one of these cheaper tackles pans out higher than their pay. Of course, in signing two of them to new deals at $8m and $5m, they're paying as much as one franchise LT, but why focus on such details? Lol. The $7.5m/yr RG extension is because the team painted itself into a corner by waiting too long to address. They're setting themselves up for a repeat of this same thing at center next year, as though it was the desired result.

Putting this supporting cast together isn't the "comfortable" collective act of a team that believes in its young QBs. It's what a team does when it wants the #1 pick in a QB-rich draft class the following year.

The only exception is paying Josh McCown $6m. Presumably they want the receivers to further develop this year, so they'll have to get playing time in with at least some passes thrown where it's expected (until he gets hurt).

Agree, we really haven't done anything to help Hackenberg succeed this year.  We needed to rebuild our defensive backfield. I'm hoping we made some progress there, but even there we're depending on rookies and retreads. 

[jeremy2020]

36 minutes ago, long suffering jets fan said:

Agree, we really haven't done anything to help Hackenberg succeed this year.  We needed to rebuild our defensive backfield. I'm hoping we made some progress there, but even there we're depending on rookies and retreads. 

just like Geno, you can't fairly judge hackenberg until he has an all pro at each offensive line position, receivers 1-3, TE 1-2 and at RB. Preferably All Pros at RB 1-3 and an all pro FB. 

[win4ever]

Lol.

Do we have this conversation every three weeks or so?  If someone has faith in him improving, he's defending them without reason? So if he's over-drafted, should we throw eggs at his house and claim to be fans? 

Was he over-drafted? Absolutely.  Did he struggle in college? Absolutely.  

However, each and every one of it can be defended (some better than others):

Over-drafted:  Based on who?  All of these analysts make football predictions as well as Dr. Phil practices psychology.  Have you wondered why they sit in front of a camera for so many years instead of running NFL teams?  They don't get paid to educate you on the prospects.  They get paid for hype.  You need hype to be excited for a draft.  If someone tells you there are 5 studs in a draft going in the top 10, how much would you care if you picking at 21?  How many people watch Gruden's camp?  How many negative opinions have you seen coming out of it?  When was the last time you saw someone go on that show and get blasted for being a loser.  Heck, even Manziel was praised on that show.  How about sports science?  How many people have gone on that show and not tested near the 90th percentile in whatever aggregate rating system they come up with?  How many people have you see on that show test in the 20th percentile?  If they did, it' doesn't make the show.  It's just a publicity stunt to hype up the strengths of a prospect.  Each and every analyst needs to sell hope and hype because they need you to watch and see if random player X that was hyped by Analyst Y makes it to your team.  For example, in the 2001 draft, Mel Kiper had Joey Harrington as the No. 3 prospect on his board, and went to the Lions.  He also said Mike Williams of USC would be a great WR, went to the Lions.  Bet his career on Jimmy Claussen being a stud.  He ranked Charles Rogers as the No. 2 talent in 2003, went to the Lions.  People laugh at Matt Millen for those picks, but how many people take those "Best available" rankings from ESPN to heart?  Heck, he had Dwayne Robertson well ahead of Andre Johnson and Troy Polamalu in the draft, and we all remember how that turned out. 

I'm not saying these guys are idiots, but they don't make their money from being right.  That's just not their job.  They make their money from excitement and hope.  You hype enough prospects, and it gets people talking.  It's not football die hard fans that they are appealing to.  It's the random fan that barely follows along, listens to national media, and spends money to show their fandom.  They are essentially trying to predict what the real GMs would do, but in scheme, it made to look like the real GMs are the ones that aren't following the script.  

In terms of Hackenberg, draft hype was the reason he was well known, and also the reason he was trashed afterwards.   I didn't think Hackenberg was a Round 2 player, because I don't believe in drafting someone that high for a red shirt year.  However, I also doubt people are saying he was over-drafted because random poster on JN said he wasn't a Round 2 player. 

Did he struggle in college? Absolutely

However, so did the entire team.  That place was about as close to getting the death penalty as I've seen at a major sports college in my lifetime (admittedly not that long).  It was so bad that they literally told prospects that they could transfer without penalty to any other college.  The NCAA went out of their way to change the rules for them so they could get out.  

Top tier receiver moved on in Allen Robinson.

High end coach moved on to the NFL.

Terrible offensive system was brought in by Franklin.  If you do not believe it, watch tapes of Vanderbilt.  

All three are pretty much covered here.  Some people will argue that they changed dramatically this year, and it's true.  However, there are reasons for it.  One, the offensive coordinator is different, and the philosophy is completely different.  Instead of long developing plays that relied heavily on the offensive line, it's a fast paced, quick RPO offense.  And that is a system that works much better in college because it lessens the importance of overall talent, and relies much more with one on one match ups.  It's the reason why teams like Baylor, Oregon, or Texas Tech went to it before they could recruit with the big boys because it's all about spacing and athletes instead of technically sound guys.  It's no surprise that someone like Godwin and Barkley looked great in the system because they are great athletes.  

Second, they were banned from the post season until last year.  So, if you are a non star player without hopes of the NFL, what were you playing for other than a scholarship?  You can't win anything.  It might not be the root cause, but there has to be a percentage of players that played it safe because there is no good outcome for them.  Without the light at the end of the tunnel, how much would you sacrifice?  You hear countless stories of how players wanted to win the Rose Bowl or Sugar Bowl and how they worked hard for it every year.  It's usually some fluff piece about an overachieving senior and how it all paid off.  Well, if you can't have that, what are you over-achieving for, especially if you don't have NFL talent?  How many people got back on the PSU bandwagon AFTER the bowl game this year?  

So you have a talent deprived team with no real goal in sight with a horrible system in place.  Those are the excuses for Hackenberg.

Excuses against Hackenberg:  

He has horrible stats:  He does have horrible stats, and there aren't many example of people improving from college to the NFL.

He has terrible mechanics, partially because he didn't have time in the pocket to develop mechanics.  His lack of mechanics also means he can not be accurate on a consistent basis.  Last year when I wrote the scouting report, I mentioned that the best case scenario for the Jets is to get the freshman version of Hackenberg, with a clean slate and then re-work his mechanics from the ground up.  

In conclusion, the only thing in his control right now is to improve mechanics.  If his mechanics improve, his accuracy improves.  If his accuracy improves, it alleviates one of his biggest downsides as a QB.  So why is any article being positive about his mechanics a bad thing?  Why is talking about him with the possibility of positive improvement delusional?  We won't know for sure until the games start.  And if you don't want to read about football based on few training camp videos, no one is forcing you to read.  I'm not defending Hackenberg fully, he definitely has his issues to work out.  However, he's showing signs that he is working on his biggest issue, which warrants discussion IMO.  

[phill1c]

26 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

just like Geno, you can't fairly judge hackenberg until he has an all pro at each offensive line position, receivers 1-3, TE 1-2 and at RB. Preferably All Pros at RB 1-3 and an all pro FB.

The opinion above is a straw man.

Because the real question is, "when's the last time the Jets had A difference maker on offense, at a skill position, on the OL? Hackenberg certainly hasn't thrown to one.

I'm sorry Brandon "I drop as many as I catch, especially in crunch time" doesn't count. And, please don't even mention the center position because without surrounding OL with talent, the position is hardly a difference maker.

Somehow, guys expect the QB to uplift a dreadful offense when it can't. A QB can uplift a mediocre offense, but that offense better have weapons that defenses have to care about and the OL better have some quality, either run blocking or pass blocking. Unfortunately for the jets, starting after 2010, the Jets really haven't had anything special on offense, no dominant players at either OL or skill positions. That's something a young QB certainly can't compensate for.

[long suffering jets fan]

4 hours ago, jeremy2020 said:

just like Geno, you can't fairly judge hackenberg until he has an all pro at each offensive line position, receivers 1-3, TE 1-2 and at RB. Preferably All Pros at RB 1-3 and an all pro FB. 

Oh you can judge him anytime, but it certainly helps his cause if he wasn't the QB for the 32nd ranked team in the NFL.

[long suffering jets fan]

4 hours ago, win4ever said:

Lol.

Do we have this conversation every three weeks or so?  If someone has faith in him improving, he's defending them without reason? So if he's over-drafted, should we throw eggs at his house and claim to be fans? 

Was he over-drafted? Absolutely.  Did he struggle in college? Absolutely.  

However, each and every one of it can be defended (some better than others):

Over-drafted:  Based on who?  All of these analysts make football predictions as well as Dr. Phil practices psychology.  Have you wondered why they sit in front of a camera for so many years instead of running NFL teams?  They don't get paid to educate you on the prospects.  They get paid for hype.  You need hype to be excited for a draft.  If someone tells you there are 5 studs in a draft going in the top 10, how much would you care if you picking at 21?  How many people watch Gruden's camp?  How many negative opinions have you seen coming out of it?  When was the last time you saw someone go on that show and get blasted for being a loser.  Heck, even Manziel was praised on that show.  How about sports science?  How many people have gone on that show and not tested near the 90th percentile in whatever aggregate rating system they come up with?  How many people have you see on that show test in the 20th percentile?  If they did, it' doesn't make the show.  It's just a publicity stunt to hype up the strengths of a prospect.  Each and every analyst needs to sell hope and hype because they need you to watch and see if random player X that was hyped by Analyst Y makes it to your team.  For example, in the 2001 draft, Mel Kiper had Joey Harrington as the No. 3 prospect on his board, and went to the Lions.  He also said Mike Williams of USC would be a great WR, went to the Lions.  Bet his career on Jimmy Claussen being a stud.  He ranked Charles Rogers as the No. 2 talent in 2003, went to the Lions.  People laugh at Matt Millen for those picks, but how many people take those "Best available" rankings from ESPN to heart?  Heck, he had Dwayne Robertson well ahead of Andre Johnson and Troy Polamalu in the draft, and we all remember how that turned out. 

I'm not saying these guys are idiots, but they don't make their money from being right.  That's just not their job.  They make their money from excitement and hope.  You hype enough prospects, and it gets people talking.  It's not football die hard fans that they are appealing to.  It's the random fan that barely follows along, listens to national media, and spends money to show their fandom.  They are essentially trying to predict what the real GMs would do, but in scheme, it made to look like the real GMs are the ones that aren't following the script.  

In terms of Hackenberg, draft hype was the reason he was well known, and also the reason he was trashed afterwards.   I didn't think Hackenberg was a Round 2 player, because I don't believe in drafting someone that high for a red shirt year.  However, I also doubt people are saying he was over-drafted because random poster on JN said he wasn't a Round 2 player. 

Did he struggle in college? Absolutely

However, so did the entire team.  That place was about as close to getting the death penalty as I've seen at a major sports college in my lifetime (admittedly not that long).  It was so bad that they literally told prospects that they could transfer without penalty to any other college.  The NCAA went out of their way to change the rules for them so they could get out.  

Top tier receiver moved on in Allen Robinson.

High end coach moved on to the NFL.

Terrible offensive system was brought in by Franklin.  If you do not believe it, watch tapes of Vanderbilt.  

All three are pretty much covered here.  Some people will argue that they changed dramatically this year, and it's true.  However, there are reasons for it.  One, the offensive coordinator is different, and the philosophy is completely different.  Instead of long developing plays that relied heavily on the offensive line, it's a fast paced, quick RPO offense.  And that is a system that works much better in college because it lessens the importance of overall talent, and relies much more with one on one match ups.  It's the reason why teams like Baylor, Oregon, or Texas Tech went to it before they could recruit with the big boys because it's all about spacing and athletes instead of technically sound guys.  It's no surprise that someone like Godwin and Barkley looked great in the system because they are great athletes.  

Second, they were banned from the post season until last year.  So, if you are a non star player without hopes of the NFL, what were you playing for other than a scholarship?  You can't win anything.  It might not be the root cause, but there has to be a percentage of players that played it safe because there is no good outcome for them.  Without the light at the end of the tunnel, how much would you sacrifice?  You hear countless stories of how players wanted to win the Rose Bowl or Sugar Bowl and how they worked hard for it every year.  It's usually some fluff piece about an overachieving senior and how it all paid off.  Well, if you can't have that, what are you over-achieving for, especially if you don't have NFL talent?  How many people got back on the PSU bandwagon AFTER the bowl game this year?  

So you have a talent deprived team with no real goal in sight with a horrible system in place.  Those are the excuses for Hackenberg.

Excuses against Hackenberg:  

He has horrible stats:  He does have horrible stats, and there aren't many example of people improving from college to the NFL.

He has terrible mechanics, partially because he didn't have time in the pocket to develop mechanics.  His lack of mechanics also means he can not be accurate on a consistent basis.  Last year when I wrote the scouting report, I mentioned that the best case scenario for the Jets is to get the freshman version of Hackenberg, with a clean slate and then re-work his mechanics from the ground up.  

In conclusion, the only thing in his control right now is to improve mechanics.  If his mechanics improve, his accuracy improves.  If his accuracy improves, it alleviates one of his biggest downsides as a QB.  So why is any article being positive about his mechanics a bad thing?  Why is talking about him with the possibility of positive improvement delusional?  We won't know for sure until the games start.  And if you don't want to read about football based on few training camp videos, no one is forcing you to read.  I'm not defending Hackenberg fully, he definitely has his issues to work out.  However, he's showing signs that he is working on his biggest issue, which warrants discussion IMO.  

Solid depiction of what Hackenberg had to deal with at PSU.   Let's hope he works out his accuracy issues and becomes productive for us.  It would be huge next year if we didn't have to dedicate our first round pick to drafting a QB and got a top notch playmaker instead.  However it's going to be tough to look good without some semblance of a supporting cast. Let's see what happens.

[win4ever]

12 minutes ago, long suffering jets fan said:

Solid depiction of what Hackenberg had to deal with at PSU.   Let's hope he works out his accuracy issues and becomes productive for us.  It would be huge next year if we didn't have to dedicate our first round pick to drafting a QB and got a top notch playmaker instead.  However it's going to be tough to look good without some semblance of a supporting cast. Let's see what happens.

If his accuracy issues improve, I don't think anyone will be calling this an over-draft, including me.  I would love to get Barkley/Callaway next year or Ridley in terms of play makers on offense if we could have a QB, but assuming Hackenberg shows himself well enough to be a good QB, we might not be picking high.  

I know folks mention Geno in terms of lack of talent, but I think it's different in evaluating Hackenberg this year, because he has more talent to deal with.  

Geno's two seasons:

Santonio Holmes:  Broken down and lazy out there.  Did nothing after leaving the Jets.

Jeremy Kerley: Thrown aside when Marshall/Decker/Enunwa were healthy.  He posted 64/667/ 3 TD this year, which on the surface looks great, until you see the 115 targets, which was more than Dez Bryant, AJ Green, same as Pierre Garcon, and right behind Brandon Cooks.  Essentially he is a replacement level guy that got heavy targets on a horrible team.

David Nelson:  Off the couch, and back to the couch afterwards.

Clyde Gates:  He has done nothing since leaving the Jets

Greg Salas:  7 receptions and 130 yards in two years since leaving the Jets, and most of it was probably against us.

Kellen Winslow: Caressing kleenex after he left the Jets

Salim Hakim:  Nothing since he left the Jets

Zach Sudfeld:  Nothing at all

Stephen Hill:  Nothing at all, but did also get injured.

Jeff Cumberland:  Nothing since he left the Jets

Josh Cribbs:  One horrible year returning punts for the Colts before being out of the league.

Eric Decker:  Looked good in the games he played, but hurt most of Geno's second year.  

Percy Harvin:  21 receptions, 224 yards with Buffalo in two years

Chris Owusu:  Nothing

Jace Amaro:  3 receptions, 59 yards last year

TJ Graham:  4 receptions, 24 yards, two years ago

That's the group he had to deal with.  That's just a ridiculous lack of talent.  On the other hand:

Quincy Enunwa:  I would take him over every non Eric Decker guy on that list.

Robby Anderson:  I would take him over every non Eric Decker guy on that list. 

ArDarius Stewart:  I would take him over every non Eric Decker/Stephen Hill guy on that list

Chad Hansen:  I would take him over every non Eric Decekr/Stephen Hill guy on that list

Charone Peake:  I would take him over every non Eric Decker/Stephen Hill guy on that list

KD Cannon:  I would take him over every non Eric Decker/Stephen Hill/Percy Harvin guy on that list.

While it would have been ideal to see how the team performed with Marshall/Decker, I don't think the deck is as stacked against Hackenberg as it was for Geno.  He still has some weapons, especially ones that can stretch the field and take advantage of his arm.  It's certainly not the best situation, but I could see the talent level at least being decent there.  Also, they hired a WR guy for the OC spot, so you have to hope for some improvement from the young receivers.  

Football Outsiders ranks offensive lines (unfortunately, only the last three years) and their sack rate, they have three adjusted sack rate, standard down sack rate, and passing down sack rate.  I'll post the rankings here

2014:  101st, 83rd, 121st

2015:  111th, 117th, 92nd

2016:  25th, 55th, 46th

[MaxAF]

If a QB doesn't have time for plays to develop he looks like $hit. Even Brady when he gets shook early and often $hits the bed. The kid had no line in front of him. Had IMO a coach who was picking up the pieces of a massive scandal that ruined the team, players and draft prospects. Not making excuses for him but it was what it was. It's gonna be a wait and see season. I'm sure he'll have his shades of greatness and struggles but some clutch plays and positive progress is all I'm looking for. 

[jeremy2020]

19 hours ago, phill1c said:

The opinion above is a straw man.

Because the real question is, "when's the last time the Jets had A difference maker on offense, at a skill position, on the OL? Hackenberg certainly hasn't thrown to one.

I'm sorry Brandon "I drop as many as I catch, especially in crunch time" doesn't count. And, please don't even mention the center position because without surrounding OL with talent, the position is hardly a difference maker.

Somehow, guys expect the QB to uplift a dreadful offense when it can't. A QB can uplift a mediocre offense, but that offense better have weapons that defenses have to care about and the OL better have some quality, either run blocking or pass blocking. Unfortunately for the jets, starting after 2010, the Jets really haven't had anything special on offense, no dominant players at either OL or skill positions. That's something a young QB certainly can't compensate for.

I gotcha, the jets should get Fitzpatrick back because you couldn't really judge him last season since Marshall dropped so many passes...

[phill1c]

Just now, jeremy2020 said:

I gotcha, the jets should get Fitzpatrick back because you couldn't really judge him last season since Marshall dropped so many passes...

If that is what you took away from my post you most definitely DO NOT got me.

[Joe the Breadman]

On 7/7/2017 at 2:05 PM, BigRy56 said:

He's the future. 6 months from now there will be a lot of Hackenberg avatars around here.

Bro I hope you are so right. This team so needs a boost. I will be happy if he can manage more touchdowns vs turnovers.

[long suffering jets fan]

22 hours ago, win4ever said:

If his accuracy issues improve, I don't think anyone will be calling this an over-draft, including me.  I would love to get Barkley/Callaway next year or Ridley in terms of play makers on offense if we could have a QB, but assuming Hackenberg shows himself well enough to be a good QB, we might not be picking high.  

I know folks mention Geno in terms of lack of talent, but I think it's different in evaluating Hackenberg this year, because he has more talent to deal with.  

Geno's two seasons:

Santonio Holmes:  Broken down and lazy out there.  Did nothing after leaving the Jets.

Jeremy Kerley: Thrown aside when Marshall/Decker/Enunwa were healthy.  He posted 64/667/ 3 TD this year, which on the surface looks great, until you see the 115 targets, which was more than Dez Bryant, AJ Green, same as Pierre Garcon, and right behind Brandon Cooks.  Essentially he is a replacement level guy that got heavy targets on a horrible team.

David Nelson:  Off the couch, and back to the couch afterwards.

Clyde Gates:  He has done nothing since leaving the Jets

Greg Salas:  7 receptions and 130 yards in two years since leaving the Jets, and most of it was probably against us.

Kellen Winslow: Caressing kleenex after he left the Jets

Salim Hakim:  Nothing since he left the Jets

Zach Sudfeld:  Nothing at all

Stephen Hill:  Nothing at all, but did also get injured.

Jeff Cumberland:  Nothing since he left the Jets

Josh Cribbs:  One horrible year returning punts for the Colts before being out of the league.

Eric Decker:  Looked good in the games he played, but hurt most of Geno's second year.  

Percy Harvin:  21 receptions, 224 yards with Buffalo in two years

Chris Owusu:  Nothing

Jace Amaro:  3 receptions, 59 yards last year

TJ Graham:  4 receptions, 24 yards, two years ago

That's the group he had to deal with.  That's just a ridiculous lack of talent.  On the other hand:

Quincy Enunwa:  I would take him over every non Eric Decker guy on that list.

Robby Anderson:  I would take him over every non Eric Decker guy on that list. 

ArDarius Stewart:  I would take him over every non Eric Decker/Stephen Hill guy on that list

Chad Hansen:  I would take him over every non Eric Decekr/Stephen Hill guy on that list

Charone Peake:  I would take him over every non Eric Decker/Stephen Hill guy on that list

KD Cannon:  I would take him over every non Eric Decker/Stephen Hill/Percy Harvin guy on that list.

While it would have been ideal to see how the team performed with Marshall/Decker, I don't think the deck is as stacked against Hackenberg as it was for Geno.  He still has some weapons, especially ones that can stretch the field and take advantage of his arm.  It's certainly not the best situation, but I could see the talent level at least being decent there.  Also, they hired a WR guy for the OC spot, so you have to hope for some improvement from the young receivers.  

Football Outsiders ranks offensive lines (unfortunately, only the last three years) and their sack rate, they have three adjusted sack rate, standard down sack rate, and passing down sack rate.  I'll post the rankings here

2014:  101st, 83rd, 121st

2015:  111th, 117th, 92nd

2016:  25th, 55th, 46th

I'm not so sure Hackenberg is in much better shape than Geno, we have some guys with potential, but so young and inexperienced. 

I know it's fantasy, but if our QB does well enough that we don't have to draft one, the draft gets really interesting. 

I'm not sure I understand the offensive line ranks, is the lower the number the better? 

[win4ever]

I'm not so sure Hackenberg is in much better shape than Geno, we have some guys with potential, but so young and inexperienced. 
I know it's fantasy, but if our QB does well enough that we don't have to draft one, the draft gets really interesting. 
I'm not sure I understand the offensive line ranks, is the lower the number the better? 

I think Geno had guys with more experience, but they were so limited physically that it didn't help. These guys couldn't beat coverage consistently enough to matter. While these guys are young, at least there is some potential there.

If Hackenberg turns out good, then the next three drafts become interesting.

Yeah, the lower the better. It's a bit skewed because quick pass systems tend to overrate the abilities of the offensive line in terms of protection because there are usually options for passes before the rush can get to the QB.

[varjet]

23 hours ago, long suffering jets fan said:

Solid depiction of what Hackenberg had to deal with at PSU.   Let's hope he works out his accuracy issues and becomes productive for us.  It would be huge next year if we didn't have to dedicate our first round pick to drafting a QB and got a top notch playmaker instead.  However it's going to be tough to look good without some semblance of a supporting cast. Let's see what happens.

I am obviously not a Football GM, but most agree that there is somewhat of an art to the draft, and that, given the financial commitment required and opportunity cost, players drafted in the first three rounds (at least) should have certain attributes.

I think if you used statistical analysis to compare the college performance of QBs and where NFL teams drafted them, even if you only look at Hack's Freshman year, Hack was overdrafted.  Based on prior draft picks.  Look at where Peterman, Kaaya and David got drafted this past year.

That is not to say that he can't be good.  That is not to say that QBs drafted 2nd round and lower do not perform well in the NFL.   It is quite possible that Hack would not have been there for the Jets in the third or fourth round, as it has been alleged.  FWIW, Petty was a great college QB, picked high in Round 4, as was Tebow picked in round 1.  

But in many ways this is dependent upon how the Jets develop him.  Hopefully they have a long-term structure to do that.

[Jet Nut]

9 hours ago, jeremy2020 said:

I gotcha, the jets should get Fitzpatrick back because you couldn't really judge him last season since Marshall dropped so many passes...

This is pure nonsense.  We all know what Fitz is.  You and everyone else whining that Hack is a loser etc don't have a clue, you have no idea what Hack is or isn't.  But the clown section can't keep talking as if they know.

[Jet Nut]

On 7/10/2017 at 6:27 PM, jeremy2020 said:

just like Geno, you can't fairly judge hackenberg until he has an all pro at each offensive line position, receivers 1-3, TE 1-2 and at RB. Preferably All Pros at RB 1-3 and an all pro FB. 

Where did you read this?  

But admit it, this scenario, like Dak had in Dallas, would kill you.  You must pray every day that Hack fails, would make you happy as can be.  

But really, find the words you posted and quote them.  We'll be waiting.  

[jgb]

On 7/11/2017 at 6:53 AM, phill1c said:

The opinion above is a straw man.

Because the real question is, "when's the last time the Jets had A difference maker on offense, at a skill position, on the OL? Hackenberg certainly hasn't thrown to one.

I'm sorry Brandon "I drop as many as I catch, especially in crunch time" doesn't count. And, please don't even mention the center position because without surrounding OL with talent, the position is hardly a difference maker.

Somehow, guys expect the QB to uplift a dreadful offense when it can't. A QB can uplift a mediocre offense, but that offense better have weapons that defenses have to care about and the OL better have some quality, either run blocking or pass blocking. Unfortunately for the jets, starting after 2010, the Jets really haven't had anything special on offense, no dominant players at either OL or skill positions. That's something a young QB certainly can't compensate for.

I see what you did there. Argue we had no difference makers on Offensive while trying to proactively eliminate our future HOF center and a guy who caught 1,500 yards from "that bum" Ryan Fitzpatrick. You basically put a spotlight on the flaws of your own argument. If you want to see how a real QB performs without "der weapons" look at Cam Newton 2015 or Philip Rivers 2015-2016. There are plenty of other examples.

[long suffering jets fan]

41 minutes ago, win4ever said:

 

I think Geno had guys with more experience, but they were so limited physically that it didn't help. These guys couldn't beat coverage consistently enough to matter. While these guys are young, at least there is some potential there.

If Hackenberg turns out good, then the next three drafts become interesting.

Yeah, the lower the better. It's a bit skewed because quick pass systems tend to overrate the abilities of the offensive line in terms of protection because there are usually options for passes before the rush can get to the QB.

So this metric is focussed on pass protection not the ability of the line to run block.  

Still having trouble understanding why it looks like a ranking, how can you be ranked 101st in a league with only 32 teams?

[jgb]

11 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

This is pure nonsense.  We all know what Fitz is.  You and everyone else whining that Hack is a loser etc don't have a clue, you have no idea what Hack is or isn't.  But the clown section can't keep talking as if they know.

You're right we don't know definitively what Hack is. But we have plenty of evidence. He was hidden on one of the worst teams in football with the worst QB situation in the league even though he was the hand-picked choice of the incumbent GM.

So yeah, I guess we don't have video of OJ slashing Nicole and Ron Goldman, but the evidence is pretty damning.

Not suggesting the team gives up on him--Hell I want them to play him starting week one--only that "hope" is probably going to lead to disappointment (again).

[win4ever]

58 minutes ago, long suffering jets fan said:

So this metric is focussed on pass protection not the ability of the line to run block.  

Still having trouble understanding why it looks like a ranking, how can you be ranked 101st in a league with only 32 teams?

There are two tiers of rankings, for run blocking and pass blocking.  I picked the pass blocking ones since we were talking about Hackenberg.  They were bottom tier in run blocking the last three years, except one statistic in 2015, where they came in at 45.  Other than that, it was all below average.  

It's a college ranking, so there are I believe 128 total teams to rank from.  He didn't play last year for us, so there are no stats to see how he did.  

[Sperm Edwards]

10 hours ago, jgb said:

I see what you did there. Argue we had no difference makers on Offensive while trying to proactively eliminate our future HOF center and a guy who caught 1,500 yards from "that bum" Ryan Fitzpatrick. You basically put a spotlight on the flaws of your own argument. If you want to see how a real QB performs without "der weapons" look at Cam Newton 2015 or Philip Rivers 2015-2016. There are plenty of other examples.

You don't get it. Brandon Marshall has limited Hackenberg's ceiling.

[phill1c]

11 hours ago, jgb said:

I see what you did there. Argue we had no difference makers on Offensive while trying to proactively eliminate our future HOF center and a guy who caught 1,500 yards from "that bum" Ryan Fitzpatrick. You basically put a spotlight on the flaws of your own argument. If you want to see how a real QB performs without "der weapons" look at Cam Newton 2015 or Philip Rivers 2015-2016. There are plenty of other examples.

I appreciate the rebuttal.

I would re-rebut that when your "guy who caught 1,500 yards..." drops crucial, drive killing passes, he's a difference maker, but not in a good way. And when you combine him with FitzChoker, Mr. One Read, with that guy, what did you get? 12 or so wins in two years and ZERO playoff appearances. So, I'm not sure what your point was, or what "der weapons" is supposed to mean, Sgt Schultz.

HOF center: ok, sure. Except that until one is actually IN the HOF one cannot be accurately called a HOF anything. See Joe Klecko. Moreover, there are a lot of components to a great passing game, I think saying that the Center play is a "difference maker" on an OL that mostly sucks is...HORSESH!T. It's not. It wasn't.

As far as the two QBs you named and their seasons, could you maybe support this argument with some flesh. Just mentioning some names really doesn't do it for me. I'd say that Phillip Rivers had plenty of weapons:

Wide receivers

• 86 Vincent Brown
• 80 Malcom Floyd
• 81 Javontee Herndon
• 15 Dontrelle Inman
• 11 Stevie Johnson
• 16 Tyrell Williams

Tight ends

• 45 Asante Cleveland
• 88 David Johnson FB
• 85 Antonio Gates
• 84 Sean McGrath
• 83 John Phillips

Cam Newton had Jericho Cotchery, Tedd Ginn Jr. and others he made into weapons because of his incredibly awesome physical talents. Moreover, we also see that Newton alone can't do it all, if last season is any indication. And, please, since you're so sure about these other plentiful examples, bring 'em on!!

Anyway, thanks again for the rebuttal. I think it's skimpy and doesn't disprove my argument by any stretch.