Bellicheat Speaks 1/24/15~~

[jetrider]

Since there are a lot of questionable calculations  in this thread, it may be worthwhile to post the quote from the physics prof I mentioned earlier:

 

“Say you inflate the ball to 12.5 PSI — the NFL minimum — in a room at 70 degrees, and then used the ball outside where it was 50 degrees. That 12.5 PSI would eventually become 11.5 PSI,” Naughton said. “If you inflate the ball to 12.5 PSI in an even warmer room where it was, say, 80 degrees, and then played outdoors at 40 degrees, that 12.5 PSI would become 10.5 PSI — a drop of two PSIs.”

I checked his result for the 70 deg to 50 deg drop, and I also got a 1 psi drop in pressure for that case. Just noticed that his second result is for a drop to 40 degrees, so it does not really apply. 

 

 

Is this a Patriots ball or a Colts ball? Somehow there's a major scientific difference.

[Jet Fan RI]

I haven't looked at the equation but I'm wondering why are we adding 14.7? The atmospheric pressure is the same inside and outside the ball Resulting in a net of zero.

It's because the ideal gas law uses absolute numbers. The same thing is true for the temperature which has to be converted to absolute. Pressure gauges measure what is called "gage pressure" which is the difference between atmospheric pressure and the measured pressure. To use the equation you need to convert the measured pressure to absolute pressure, which means you add the 14.7 psi atmospheric pressure.

[Jet Fan RI]

Is this a Patriot ball or a Colt ball? Somehow there's a major scientific difference.

What we don't know is whether the Colts requested 13.5 psi inflation. Bellichik said the Pats requested 12.5 psi. So the balls may have started out at different pressures. Hopefully all of this will come out in the investigation. 

[thshadow]

It's because the ideal gas law uses absolute numbers. The same thing is true for the temperature which has to be converted to absolute. Pressure gauges measure what is called "gage pressure" which is the difference between atmospheric pressure and the measured pressure. To use the equation you need to convert the measured pressure to absolute pressure, which means you add the 14.7 psi atmospheric pressure.

Hmmm, I'm not sure about that, but maybe you're right.  Still, that only explains half of the PSI difference.

 

My guess is still that they superheat the air in the ball (and not by simply rubbing it up) before bringing to the refs.

[thshadow]

What we don't know is whether the Colts requested 13.5 psi inflation. Bellichik said the Pats requested 12.5 psi. So the balls may have started out at different pressures. Hopefully all of this will come out in the investigation. 

 

The Pats balls were at *10.5* PSI.  Nothing can explain their balls losing 2 PSI in 1 half, and the Colts balls losing *at most* 1 PSI in a full game.

[slats]

I think that artificially heating the balls in an attempt to get them to a lower game time psi would still be considered cheating

  

While I would consider it cheating, the way the rules are written it's not. Like I said, I'd expect temperature and pressure wording in the rule book starting next season.

I think his comments were "we've followed all the rules" etc.  He knows he'll get totally skewered if he just admits "Oh, sure, we super-heat the balls before their weigh-in".

Yes, he would. He could refuse to comment publicly (rather than make up a bunch of bullsh*t for public consumption) and spill to the league behind closed doors. The league's history would be to hide that info, conclude their investigation, and issue a slap on the wrist at best. Maybe even have to let the Pats do it in the Super Bowl, because it's not currently, officially, against the rules.

Again, no, the logistics of such an endeavor are just too ridiculous. Someone under orders lets air of the balls for them.

[neckdemon]

Hey Bill can you explain?

"Yeah well ad you all know water drains in a counterclockwise direction in the north and we spin the balls clockwise at their terminal velocity calculated by their weight at 12.5 psi. We then put them into an inverted 20° spin calculated from the position of orion at the last new moon. As this is happening we heat the balls to 20% above the saturation temperature of the air at its current pressure. We have concluded that this procedure puts the ball into a state of unequilibrium and that does not correct itself until kickoff. I am thoroughly embarrassed at having spent yet more time explaining this procedure and am done talking about it"

[Jet Fan RI]

Hmmm, I'm not sure about that, but maybe you're right.  Still, that only explains half of the PSI difference.

 

My guess is still that they superheat the air in the ball (and not by simply rubbing it up) before bringing to the refs.

Agree that the change in temperature accounts only for half the change. That's why it's important for the investigators to determine whether the extra 1 psi increase occurs using the Pats' ball prep procedure. The only way that could be accurately done would be if the investigators give the Pats brand new footballs then watch the Pats prepare them, and measure the pressure both before and after preparation. My guess is that the extra 1 psi increase will not occur while officials are watching.

[jetrider]

It's because the ideal gas law uses absolute numbers. The same thing is true for the temperature which has to be converted to absolute. Pressure gauges measure what is called "gage pressure" which is the difference between atmospheric pressure and the measured pressure. To use the equation you need to convert the measured pressure to absolute pressure, which means you add the 14.7 psi atmospheric pressure.

 

 

Those lab calculations are for scientifically closed experiments where atmospheric conditions are scientifically controlled, no?; gases inside a vacuum. 

 

Air inside a rubber bladder inside a thick cowhide jacket in an outdoor environment doesn't sound very reliable.

[slats]

What we don't know is whether the Colts requested 13.5 psi inflation. Bellichik said the Pats requested 12.5 psi. So the balls may have started out at different pressures. Hopefully all of this will come out in the investigation.

The balls would've lost the same percentage of pressure in identical elements. So if the Patriots' balls dropped nearly two pounds, the Colts' balls also would've also been below league standards at halftime. They weren't. Also, the balls the Patriots used in the second half didn't lose any pressure. There's no explanation for the first half balls losing two pounds of pressure, while the second half balls lost nothing.

Belichick is trying to baffle everyone with bullsh*t.

[JetsFanInDenver]

Smart press conference. With all his BS he did create a big enough diversion that takes the finger of blame away from him and his organization.

 

And he gave a juicy My Cousin Vinny quote to the limited intelligence media hounds so they have something to feed their twitter-verse. Mehta was so impressed by it that he tweeted and I quote "Many will try, but none will come close to this: The greatest press conference quote in NFL history". I wonder what he would have said if he was at Gettysburg.

 

So yeah Belichick created enough diversion for the naive, the guillible and the idiots. And what i am finding out is there are quiet a few of these. But for many he just confirmed the obvious.

[Jet Fan RI]

The Pats balls were at *10.5* PSI.  Nothing can explain their balls losing 2 PSI in 1 half, and the Colts balls losing *at most* 1 PSI in a full game.

Well, there is the outside possibility that the Pats' ball prep increases the pressure by the extra 1 psi. I hope that are made to perform that trick with officials watching.

[Jet Fan RI]

 

Those lab calculations are for scientifically closed experiments where atmospheric conditions are scientifically controlled, no?; gases inside a vacuum. 

 

Air inside a rubber bladder inside a thick cowhide jacket in an outdoor environment doesn't sound very reliable.

 

 

Absolutely right. That's why the best thing to do is an experiment. The calculations are only a rough guide to plausibility, or lack of it.

[neckdemon]

The Pats balls were at *10.5* PSI. Nothing can explain their balls losing 2 PSI in 1 half, and the Colts balls losing *at most* 1 PSI in a full game.

Again I haven't looked at the equation but I'd assume it's a % and not sn absolute value. So you would think the pats balls losing 2 psi to 10.5 that the Colts balls would have had to lose more than 2 psi and therefore be below 11.5 psi. Somehow the Colts balls didn't do this. Which leads me to one conclusion. The pats let air out of the balls.

[funaz]

Holy Hell. Look at this drivel... http://m.patriots.com/news/blog/article-1/From-the-Hart-Informative-emotional-Belichick-nailed-it/a56c7617-5a9f-45ae-bcea-d0d4d75d346c

Not only do they say Bill closed deflategate. He also proved spygate was a myth

sent from my Lumia 1020 using tapatalk.

[TuscanyTile2]

I watched Brady and Belichick's press conferences.  I think they both spoke well but I still think they're both guilty of this (more out of thinking "how could any other scenario be feasible?")  Yet I still think this is more of a misdemeanor as it pertains to the Colts game.  If the Pats did this in closer games (that got them to the position they're in), then it's more serious.

 

Questions I have though:

-Is it possible for the ball to lose 2 PSI during the normal course of the game?  I would think not since the range of acceptable PSI is around 2 to begin with (like 12.5-14.5 - something like that). 

 

-What are the odds that all 12 balls would lose exactly 2 PSI during the game

 

-Were any of the under-inflated balls NOT used during the game?  If not used and yet still 2 PSI lower, that would remove (for me) the possibility that the balls deflated naturally during the course of the game

 

-Did Luck use the same footballs as Brady during that game?  If so, did he complain about the PSI?  People say "Brady should/would have known" but, if so, shouldn't Luck have as well?

[Jet Fan RI]

The balls would've lost the same percentage of pressure in identical elements. So if the Patriots' balls dropped nearly two pounds, the Colts' balls also would've also been below league standards at halftime. They weren't. Also, the balls the Patriots used in the second half didn't lose any pressure. There's no explanation for the first half balls losing two pounds of pressure, while the second half balls lost nothing.

Belichick is trying to baffle everyone with bullsh*t.

Actually, I have offered plausibility arguments for all the results you mention. I am getting pretty tired of repeating them, but I'll give it one more go. In the 1st half, the balls experienced the temperature change from inside to outside, That accounts for 1 psi of the drop. Bellichik claims their ball prep procedure produces a  1 psi increase in pressure. If true, that could account for the other 1 psi, or 2 psi total. All balls were outside, even the replacement balls, during the 1st half. So if they were inflated to correct pressure at the half, there would be no big temperature drop as when the balls were first taken outside. And the Pats would not have prepared the balls for the second half, which would have eliminated almost all of the pressure drop that happened in the 1st half, The Colts may have requested their balls be inflated to 13.5 psi, and their ball prep procedure may not produce the 1 psi increase the Pats are claiming. So the Colts balls may have dropped from 13.5 psi to 12.5 psi and then stabilized.

 

Let me be clear also that I do not believe Bellichik's claim of a 1 psi increase due to their prep method. But thankfully there is no need to believe him. But there is a need for the league investigators to see if the Pats can get that increase to happen while officials are watching.

[Larz]

Overlooked by the CMU folks (and Belichick, and others) was the reported ability of the Colts’ footballs to remain within the accepted range of 12.5 to 13.5 PSI after the same duration of exposure to the same elements and conditions.  If, on average, the footballs tested at a starting PSI lost 1.8 pounds on average (i.e., 14.4 percent of their air pressure), footballs pumped even to the maximum of 13.5 PSI would have lost 1.94 PSI on average, taking them to 11.56, nearly a full bound below the minimum limit.

 

 

nutshell

[neckdemon]

Well, there is the outside possibility that the Pats' ball prep increases the pressure by the extra 1 psi. I hope that are made to perform that trick with officials watching.

So what is the temp that required for a ball to read 12.5 psi that will read 10.5 psi at let's say 60°. I am splitting the difference between 70 and 50 (game temp vs average room temp) since the balls had to have heated back up somewhat by the time the psi eas tested again

[Jet Fan RI]

So what is the temp that required for a ball to read 12.5 psi that will read 10.5 psi at let's say 60°. I am splitting the difference between 70 and 50 (game temp vs average room temp) since the balls had to have heated back up somewhat by the time the psi eas tested again

Not sure I understand what you are asking. But I am pretty spent from all the posting so running calculations is not something I really want to do right now, But I will mention the physics prof who calculated the 1 psi pressure drop caused by the temperature dropping from 70 F to 50 F, and I did check that and got the same result. The prof also said a 2 psi drop would occur if the ball started at 80 deg F and dropped to 40 deg F. I did not check that result, so I don't know if it's correct. And I don't know if that 40 F number is a misquote, because it really would not even apply. Anyways, I'll try a calculation, maybe today, to see what temp the balls would have to start at in order to drop 2 psi at 50 degrees, because that's the game temperature. If it turns out to be 80 F, that would show the prof was misquoted.

[jetrider]

This is like the OJ trial when they spent weeks haggling over a few missing cc of blood in Dr. Henry Lee's viles when the Bronco chase on the 405 N was all they needed.

 

Sorry to ruin the fun, the key to this mind-bending mystery remains this:

 

[fastmover]

The nfl should bring in judge Judy to her this case.

I think common sense needs to be applied to the rule, and read as black and white. The ball must be within specified range of pressure to be legally used during competition. Any preparation routine allowable be the nfl shall not affect the specified pressure at game time ambient temperature. It's obvious by the allowable range of psi, the nfl has taken into account of pressure differential due to ambient temperature changes. So to me it's quite simple, when the ball was certified by the refs on face value it passed, as did all the balls for the game. So logically if only the pats balls were below spec, then it leaves two logical conclusions;

1- someone that handles the balls during the game manipulated the pressure by bleeding off a few psi, (ball boy) and whom or how did this person come to the decision to do so? Unwritten order or request? "This is how we do it" , Tom likes his balls like this, make sure you handle it. Code red?

2- the pats have figured a way to prep the balls that allows them to pass inspection and then normalize to a condition that Brady likes. Which is manipulating the spirit and intent of the rule to gain an advantage.

Either way is text book cheating.

Semper Fi

[slats]

Actually, I have offered plausibility arguments for all the results you mention. I am getting pretty tired of repeating them, but I'll give it one more go. In the 1st half, the balls experienced the temperature change from inside to outside, That accounts for 1 psi of the drop. Bellichik claims their ball prep procedure produces a 1 psi increase in pressure. If true, that could account for the other 1 psi, or 2 psi total. All balls were outside, even the replacement balls, during the 1st half. So if they were inflated to correct pressure at the half, there would be no big temperature drop as when the balls were first taken outside. And the Pats would not have prepared the balls for the second half, which would have eliminated almost all of the pressure drop that happened in the 1st half, The Colts may have requested their balls be inflated to 13.5 psi, and their ball prep procedure may not produce the 1 psi increase the Pats are claiming. So the Colts balls may have dropped from 13.5 psi to 12.5 psi and then stabilized.

Let me be clear also that I do not believe Bellichik's claim of a 1 psi increase due to their prep method. But thankfully there is no need to believe him. But there is a need for the league investigators to see if the Pats can get that increase to happen while officials are watching.

The bold is not plausible, though. The balls don't decrease in pressure by a full pound because of a 20° temperature difference. If that was the case, the Colts' footballs also would've been below regulation pressure at halftime. And no amount of rubbing they do to wear in the footballs is increasing the pressure a full pound, either.

I do agree with you when you say the investigators should make the ballboys go thru their entire routine in front of them as an experiment - which will almost certainly prove that Belichick is full of crap.

[carpetbeggar]

Ha Ha Brilliant!

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=747945445301839&id=408320822597638&_rdr

[PatsFanTX]

While I would consider it cheating, the way the rules are written it's not.

Congrats Slats, you now have the most contradictory post in the history of JN.

[slats]

Congrats Slats, you now have the most contradictory post in the history of JN.

We may need to go over your body of work before making a final determination.

The italics are there for a reason. The heated football thing would certainly be against the spirit of the rules, but like I said, not against the letter of the law. Also, there's no way I believe that's what they do. Tom Brady, with Belichick's blessing, directs an underling to deflate their footballs - something they've probably been doing for a long, long time.

[Larz]

occams razor points to a simpler explanation, they cheated and lied about it

[PatsFanTX]

We may need to go over your body of work before making a final determination.

The italics are there for a reason. The heated football thing would certainly be against the spirit of the rules, but like I said, not against the letter of the law. Also, there's no way I believe that's what they do. Tom Brady, with Belichick's blessing, directs an underling to deflate their footballs - something they've probably been doing for a long, long time.

And I agree with you, it's Brady and someone else if the balls were actually deflated.

The NFL will review the tapes of every single Pats game going back to 2007 to see if anyone, other than the ball boy, handled the footballs during the game.

All they need is one instance and the Pats are screwed.

[jetrider]

The balls would've lost the same percentage of pressure in identical elements. So if the Patriots' balls dropped nearly two pounds, the Colts' balls also would've also been below league standards at halftime. They weren't. Also, the balls the Patriots used in the second half didn't lose any pressure. There's no explanation for the first half balls losing two pounds of pressure, while the second half balls lost nothing.

Belichick is trying to baffle everyone with bullsh*t.

 

Nobody knows which 12 balls were tested after the game or which balls they used the 2nd half because NE prepared 24 balls.

 

The 1st half dozen balls weren't removed from their possession and the backup dozen weren't confirmed to be tested. 

 

 

 

ESPN Sports Radio 810 in Kansas City reported that the Patriots' footballs were tested at the half, reinflated at that time when they were found to be low, then put back in play for the second half, and then tested again after the game. The report did not reveal the results of the test following the game. All of the balls the Colts used met standards, according to the report.

 

Meanwhile, a source told WEEI.com that the Patriots used 12 backup balls for the second half against the Colts after issues were found with most of the originals. Patriots spokesman Stacey James confirmed that the team had 24 balls total available, WEEI reported.

 

LOL ... the issues must've been they had NFL approved air pressure.

[southparkcpa]

And I agree with you, it's Brady and someone else if the balls were actually deflated.

The NFL will review the tapes of every single Pats game going back to 2007 to see if anyone, other than the ball boy, handled the footballs during the game.

All they need is one instance and the Pats are screwed.

A tarnished legacy that will carry with Brady and Billicek for a lifetime.

[VAJetsFan]

What really confuses me about this whole situation is the fact that it's become a given the balls will lose pressure, and I get the science.  But the temperature at gametime was 51 degrees with some rain added in.  Holding everything else equal, then when a game is played in GB or Buffalo at 0 degrees and snowing, wouldn't the balls be down to like 6-7 psi?  How can you play with a ball that deflated?  Also wouldn't the game a week before have the balls at like 9 psi?  Wouldn't that be obvious.  I feel like something is missing from any of these explanations.

[jetrider]

And I agree with you, it's Brady and someone else if the balls were actually deflated.

The NFL will review the tapes of every single Pats game going back to 2007 to see if anyone, other than the ball boy, handled the footballs during the game.

All they need is one instance and the Pats are screwed.

 

I'm surprised someone like Ryan Mallett doesn't have any inside knowledge to share.

[Ray Ray1]

No , impossible ...he raised his voice and put meanie face on...so I'm almost positive according to the coverage I've been watching that means he could not have been lying .

 

It's pretty funny Tx stayed away from my post where he basically came out and admitted Belichick lied in his press conference last night.

 

Fascinating.

[slats]

What really confuses me about this whole situation is the fact that it's become a given the balls will lose pressure, and I get the science.  But the temperature at gametime was 51 degrees with some rain added in.  Holding everything else equal, then when a game is played in GB or Buffalo at 0 degrees and snowing, wouldn't the balls be down to like 6-7 psi?  How can you play with a ball that deflated?  Also wouldn't the game a week before have the balls at like 9 psi?  Wouldn't that be obvious.  I feel like something is missing from any of these explanations.

The truth?

[PatsFanTX]

I'm surprised someone like Ryan Mallett doesn't have any inside knowledge to share.

Now that's a great point.

Mallet, Cassel and Hoyer would definitely know if anything was going on.