Report: Raiders Interested in Wilkerson

[Colgateman]

Honestly, I'd trade moe if that means we could trade for a first and get Leonard Floyd, decker, spence or lynch in the draft 

[T0mShane]

Glue guy

[SenorGato]

10 minutes ago, Savage69 said:

One may wonder if Mo is the best player on the team why did Brandon Marshall win team MVP voted on by the players.. Gato has his work cut out changing their minds and taking the award back..LOL

Yeah totally, I'd probably be arguing for weeks with Jets players about how good Wilkerson is....LOLZ

[JustInFudge]

18 hours ago, T0mShane said:

It's times like this when I find solace in recalling the career of future Hall of Famer Jeffery David Lageman.

He hosts a great fishing show on the radio Saturday mornings here in Jax.  Great guy.  I've met him quite a few times.  He put me on some great bait leading to some big days catching Red Fish galore.

 

[T0mShane]

9 minutes ago, JiF said:

He hosts a great fishing show on the radio Saturday mornings here in Jax.  Great guy.  I've met him quite a few times.  He put me on some great bait leading to some big days catching Red Fish galore.

 

Sounds like he's on track to go into the fishing hall of fame too

[SenorGato]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Sounds like he's on track to go into the fishing hall of fame too

Can we get to why a LB/DE who blew out his knee at 25 is the same thing as Wilkerson, some time maybe?

[SenorGato]

I think I'm going to award Wilkerson 5 more sacks for being humble and not making a fuss about the prestigious Jets MVP award.

[Raideraholic]

3 hours ago, drdetroit said:

The raiders and giants both have $50 million in cap room and desperately need a player like Wilk.  He's not coming back unless we franchise him or he takes a deep hometown discount 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/01/08/pro-top

The Raiders don't need to pay that much to M Wilkerson, as there are cheaper options out there that fill the bill what they are looking for.    The Raiders can go so many different directions this offseason, that it doesn't have to be a De. The Raiders could draft Noah Spence at 14.  Have Spence and K Mack as Olb in there 3-4 defense.( doesn't preclude them from bringing back Aldon Smith never have enough pass rushers).   Have three NT already( Dan Williams, Justin Ellis , and Leon Orr 6'5 325 - they love him and think he will be a big time player.   

they can sign Oliveri Vernon / Mario Williams in Fa. 

Point here like with N Suh, you sign a player for that much money you never get what you think you will get.( Let the Giants have M Wilkerson).

[Larz]

4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It isn't some silly twist of logic to say that 4 of his 12 sacks came when we were already up by 3 TDs. It is a simple fact.

In the post you quoted, but didn't address, I told you why he has more. Simply ignoring all 3 reasons doesn't mean you've countered them. Swap Mo out to OLB does he get 12 sacks? Of course not. Put him on the other side with the LT blocking him. Does he get 12 sacks then? No. It took all the advantages he has at his position, plus the garbage we faced in 2015, to once amass a sack every other game plus 4 more that are only helpful to Mo in contract negotiations.

All that said, I agree, Mo is a special player. He just isn't special enough to be a $12M upgrade over Richardson or whoever else might fill in there.

sheldumb didn't produce. 5 sacks with all of his reps sucks, simple fact

are you planning on replacing mo with another DE, or just go forward with what hey have and not even replace him ?

I don't think you are taking into consideration that the shopping spree you think might result from letting mo go isn't going very far

mo's cap number last year was $7 million.  If you want to use $14 million as his new number fine

what do you get by spreading around $7 million, and how is that team better without mo ?

please use names and stuff

 

[JoJoTownsell1]

33 minutes ago, Larz said:

sheldumb didn't produce. 5 sacks with all of his reps sucks, simple fact

are you planning on replacing mo with another DE, or just go forward with what hey have and not even replace him ?

I don't think you are taking into consideration that the shopping spree you think might result from letting mo go isn't going very far

mo's cap number last year was $7 million.  If you want to use $14 million as his new number fine

what do you get by spreading around $7 million, and how is that team better without mo ?

please use names and stuff

 

The 14 million that would otherwise be spent next year, the year after and the year after that can be used to address other needs. We already have an amazing d-line. Losing Mo will weaken the line, but the talent will still be top 5 in the NFL. To spend 14 million when this team has other needs is just a waste IF, and ONLY IF, we get back a ton for Wilkerson. 

People who are in favor of keeping Mo are acting as if the rest of us are suggesting we cut Mo because of his cap hit. No one is suggesting that. We are just saying that we should trade from a position of strength (which is what smart GMs do)  for draft picks that can help us next year and for years after that at a fraction of the cost. 

A team that has some holes on their Dline could easily justify paying a big price for a guy like Mo who is very very good. If we didn't have Sheldon/Williams/Snacks (assuming we keep him) then it would be foolish to trade him. 

[BroadwayJets]

34 minutes ago, Larz said:

sheldumb didn't produce. 5 sacks with all of his reps sucks, simple fact

 

 

1 hour ago, SenorGato said:

I think I'm going to award Wilkerson 5 more sacks for being humble and not making a fuss about the prestigious Jets MVP award.

 

 

 

Sheldon's 5 sacks in 11 games is exactly what Mo has averaged in his career - seriously.

Via FootballOutsiders:

10.5/12 of Mo's sacks came against offensive lines ranked 18th or worse in pass protection this season. I know, not a 'thing', Mr. Cat.

 

This whole discussion should be a simple one; The talent difference between Mo and Sheldon + Leonard.

I think inside the deleted posts was an article from before the season OTC about each 34DE stats (hit %, hurry %, sack %) along with run defense, which both of them were pretty much identical. Mo only had a slight edge against Sheldon in pass rushing - 1% in sack %. So, that 1% is worth $14 million per year? 

Switching to a 4-3 defense that allows these 3 guys on the field at the same time, has shown that it does not take this DL to another level. Bowles tried that this season and it's proved ineffective. It's completely obvious we need an outside rusher,specifically a 34OLB, with or without Mo. Since we currently have three, and they can't play on the same field at the same time, one has to go. One, the oldest with a broken leg, is en route to leave.

Yes, Mo has the edge over Sheldon in production, mainly due to the fact that he's played 34 more games than Sheldon.Using an age argument means nothing here, especially since Sheldon is younger, and 1/5th the cost for 2-3 more seasons. Nobody is saying we have to keep him past that, and nobody should be looking past 2017 at this point. I know, because Sheldon said once this time last year that 'they' (as in Mo AND himself) want Suh money, we can't possibly negotiate a deal with this criminal!!!! Also 2018 is right around the corner! We have to make sure we have Mo repeating his 7 sacks a year in 2019! It really is a ridiculous argument to be worrying about 2018 right now if we're staying put with Sheldon. Also, isn't more wear and tear a bad thing in the NFL? Assuming Mo plays all 16 next season, he'd have played 93 games in his career. If you ask me, I'd say he's hit his ceiling already - contract year, against a terrible schedule with awful offensive lines. If you put any stock into FootballOutsiders, we played the 32nd, 27th twice, 26th, 25th, 24th twice, 20th, 19th, 18th, 17th, 10th, and 6th ranked offensive lines in terms of pass protection. When you take into account that we are so damn stout against the run, we faced many obvious passing downs. Nobody on this line deserves that kind of money, especially when we have Sheldon and Leonard Williams that are not far behind Mo in any category. We had two whole games where teams just abandoned the run altogether ( NE and the second Miami game).

Team:

Miami game week 12: 3 sacks on 61 dropbacks

First NE game: 3 sacks on 57 dropbacks

Nobody on this DL is rushing the passer extremely well, or even close to it. Just because Mo is the best (not disputing that) does not mean he deserved to be paid that much by us considering the circumstances of having two very good backups. We have holes and 10% of the cap without Mo to fill them with. 

 

 

And then add in the fact we could probably get a top 40 or 30 pick for him. 

 

 

[Dcat]

2 hours ago, Savage69 said:

One may wonder if Mo is the best player on the team why did Brandon Marshall win team MVP voted on by the players.. Gato has his work cut out changing their minds and taking the award back..LOL

Because the Jets players voted based on their opinions, not on facts.  What a bunch of know-nothings.  Maybe they couldn't find any of Senor G's facts? They are elusive (if not invisible).

[detectivekimble]

On February 9, 2016 at 2:57 PM, SenorGato said:

A little of that, a little showcasing, and alot him being the least likely to stick around.

The locker room stoner isn't the guy who should be seen as speaking for anybody. He's the one guy who has made those kind of demands, and is the least worth that kind of investment behind the two down guy.

Yeah, again, unless you plan to run this kind of analysis for every sack in the league this isn't a thing. JJ Watt gets/got to play the Titans twice, the a Colts OL twice, and the Jaguars twice a year besides whatever bad teams are on their schedule. How many of those sacks get written off? Justin Houston got to build his reputation playing the Chargers' and Raiders' OLs, plus whatever bad teams, how many sacks are coming off the board? Von Miller got to play some bad Chargers, Raiders, and Chiefs OLs - are we combing through those? McCoy against the NFC South and whatever bad teams on his schedule? It's not the right way to go about things. Not to mention how ridiculous it is to judge a 300 pounder's effect on the passing game by sack totals when - for instance - he is second only to Watt among players in his weight class in PDs at the LOS.

Spin a yarn until the cows come home that somehow losing Wilkerson doesn't hurt the pass rush significantly, but a team losing their best and most productive from 7 player against the pass is instantly a massive blow to this and any defense. This is the kind of player you continue to build a pass rush with, getting outside rushers to compliment and open up more holes, not drop for things you imagine they might get with some breaks.

Just an fyi, coming into the season, NFL players considered Sheldon the better player.  Sheldon was 55 in the NFL Top 100 and Mo was 74.

[dbatesman]

3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Sounds like he's on track to go into the fishing hall of fame too

He's football's answer to Ted Williams!

[SenorGato]

11 hours ago, Larz said:

please use names and stuff

*crickets*

9 hours ago, Dcat said:

Because the Jets players voted based on their opinions, not on facts. 

Hurray at the shot you might understand that to be true. 

Quote

Just an fyi, coming into the season, NFL players considered Sheldon the better player.  Sheldon was 55 in the NFL Top 100 and Mo was 74.

Thats nice. Grantland's more critical list had him at 38, and NFL's top 100 had Wilkerson at 44 entering 2014. One player went on to a way better 2015 than the other....

9 hours ago, BroadwayJets said:

And then add in the fact we could probably get a top 40 or 30 pick for him. 

LOLZ yipeeeee a top 30-40 pick that could be some unnamed guy! What a catch for the team's best, most productive, and most valuable player over the past 4 seasons. 

Richardson through age 25: 16.5 sacks, 4 PDs, 4 FFs

Wilkerson through age 25: 24.5 sacks, 14 PDs, 7 FFs, 1 INT

Age difference between the two players: ~1.1 year

Basically the same thing with a totally negligible advantage Wilkerson! Richardson's a chump off the field, only comparable on a per snap basis coming off a season he wasn't even on the field for 41+% of the snaps, and can get the Jets that magical top 30-40 pick as well, which beats getting nothing for him as he goes pursue Suh money in FA after 2017.

What else....so what were the rankings for Richardson's sacks? How come he only put up 5 sacks as a slightly lesser player who also was on the Jets team that played teams so bad that now Wilkerson has moved from 12 to 8 to now 1.5 sacks using bro science? What else....Not only does Richardson play fewer games, his doing and not something in his favor, but he plays fewer snaps when on the field - instead getting more favorable matchups than probably anyone on the roster (for instance, during his forgettable moments at LB he got to line up behind the 3-man DL that requires 4+ guys to block)...Really, it is interesting how the only player penalized for the Jets' schedule this year is Wilkerson, but that's what you get when you post with an agenda. Repeating this kind of "analysis" over and over doesn't make editing stats to your liking any more valid than it started off as.

All choosing Richardson, based on smoke and mirrors, similar but lesser rates despite getting to take 20% of the snaps off at even his highest workload, does is set up a situation where the Jets lose both by 2017. His remaining rookie deal should allow the Jets to get a day one draft pick plus another pick or two, the rise in cap and dearth of young talent on the roster to go along with his long established elite level of performance make extending Wilkerson an easy choice.

tl;dr: Wilkerson's worth the money, Richardson isn't really in his league. The Jets are best off extending their best and most valuable player over the past half decade and using Richardson's remaining rookie deal to get some picks. No amount of editing stats to your liking can change that.

[SenorGato]

BTW...on this, worthy of a separate post:

Quote

Nobody on this DL is rushing the passer extremely well, or even close to it. Just because Mo is the best (not disputing that) does not mean he deserved to be paid that much by us considering the circumstances of having two very good backups. We have holes and 10% of the cap without Mo to fill them with. 

If the standards are that a 300+ pound DE/DT should post similar sack numbers to Von Miller on a year to year basis, sure you might be onto something. Fortunately/Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way and there are many ways to have a significant effect on the offense's ability to pass as well as the defense's ability to defend it. If Von Miller or Khali Mack or whoever the hot pass rusher is this hour were asked to do what the Jets' DL does - particularly Wilkerson - they wouldn't be posting double digit sacks on a regular basis either. This shouldnt even have to be stated and should be common sense. OTOH the difficulty in grasping this does explain the tedious sacks-only arguments against Wilkerson and now the whole group.

I have to award these guys 6 sacks a piece just because now it's hit the point where all are being undersold just to avoid Master Woody paying the best one at the right time to do it. Its not even interesting to suddenly throw them all under the bus just to not pay one guy - just as lame and cheap as the Wilkerson-exclusive sack editing. 

[drdetroit]

17 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

there's only so much cap money they can allocate to the defense.  besides brick (who may restructure) and mangold, is there anyone else on offense who takes up a lot of cap space?  and it's not like they have anyone on offense who is trending up who will clearly command cap space soon.  

Giacomini will probably get cut eventually these mega contracts catch up and put teams in cap hell part of the reason we sucked 2012-2013.

 

I'd be all for locking up Wilk if we didn't already have cheaper talent at DE

[BroadwayJets]

6 hours ago, SenorGato said:

*crickets*

Hurray at the shot you might understand that to be true. 

Thats nice. Grantland's more critical list had him at 38, and NFL's top 100 had Wilkerson at 44 entering 2014. One player went on to a way better 2015 than the other....

LOLZ yipeeeee a top 30-40 pick that could be some unnamed guy! What a catch for the team's best, most productive, and most valuable player over the past 4 seasons. 

Richardson through age 25: 16.5 sacks, 4 PDs, 4 FFs

Wilkerson through age 25: 24.5 sacks, 14 PDs, 7 FFs, 1 INT

Age difference between the two players: ~1.1 year

Basically the same thing with a totally negligible advantage Wilkerson! Richardson's a chump off the field, only comparable on a per snap basis coming off a season he wasn't even on the field for 41+% of the snaps, and can get the Jets that magical top 30-40 pick as well, which beats getting nothing for him as he goes pursue Suh money in FA after 2017.

What else....so what were the rankings for Richardson's sacks? How come he only put up 5 sacks as a slightly lesser player who also was on the Jets team that played teams so bad that now Wilkerson has moved from 12 to 8 to now 1.5 sacks using bro science? What else....Not only does Richardson play fewer games, his doing and not something in his favor, but he plays fewer snaps when on the field - instead getting more favorable matchups than probably anyone on the roster (for instance, during his forgettable moments at LB he got to line up behind the 3-man DL that requires 4+ guys to block)...Really, it is interesting how the only player penalized for the Jets' schedule this year is Wilkerson, but that's what you get when you post with an agenda. Repeating this kind of "analysis" over and over doesn't make editing stats to your liking any more valid than it started off as.

All choosing Richardson, based on smoke and mirrors, similar but lesser rates despite getting to take 20% of the snaps off at even his highest workload, does is set up a situation where the Jets lose both by 2017. His remaining rookie deal should allow the Jets to get a day one draft pick plus another pick or two, the rise in cap and dearth of young talent on the roster to go along with his long established elite level of performance make extending Wilkerson an easy choice.

tl;dr: Wilkerson's worth the money, Richardson isn't really in his league. The Jets are best off extending their best and most valuable player over the past half decade and using Richardson's remaining rookie deal to get some picks. No amount of editing stats to your liking can change that.

Richardson played the same offensive lines, just had less sacks in less games, at a different position half the time. What my post said was an indictment of the defensive line as a whole. If you read it, you'd see that. 

I assume you can't use your own 'unnamed player' argument for the pick you're trying to get for Richardson... 

And the Jets don't lose in 2017, we have this guy we drafted 6th overall with two FAs and two drafts to figure it out. Is that hard to understand? What else does the future have in store for us? 

Ignoring the amount of obvious passing situations is what I've come to expect, as you've yet to argue a valid point. 

4 hours ago, SenorGato said:

BTW...on this, worthy of a separate post:

If the standards are that a 300+ pound DE/DT should post similar sack numbers to Von Miller on a year to year basis, sure you might be onto something. Fortunately/Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way and there are many ways to have a significant effect on the offense's ability to pass as well as the defense's ability to defend it. If Von Miller or Khali Mack or whoever the hot pass rusher is this hour were asked to do what the Jets' DL does - particularly Wilkerson - they wouldn't be posting double digit sacks on a regular basis either. This shouldnt even have to be stated and should be common sense. OTOH the difficulty in grasping this does explain the tedious sacks-only arguments against Wilkerson and now the whole group.

I have to award these guys 6 sacks a piece just because now it's hit the point where all are being undersold just to avoid Master Woody paying the best one at the right time to do it. Its not even interesting to suddenly throw them all under the bus just to not pay one guy - just as lame and cheap as the Wilkerson-exclusive sack editing. 

Well, if a guy is trying to paid like the best (JJ Watt), I'd expect him to maybe show up in the game against him, maybe have numbers similar to his, and maybe overcome a double team from time to time. I know, 'baseless'... aka you don't watch games thoroughly, or more than once. Just because he's the best on the team doesn't mean we have to obey his prices, especially with all the leverage we have on him because of SHeldon and Leo. Mo's future with this team was sealed with the promising performance of Leonard Williams' rookie year. 

 

Quote

If Von Miller or Khali Mack or whoever the hot pass rusher is this hour were asked to do what the Jets' DL does - particularly Wilkerson - they wouldn't be posting double digit sacks on a regular basis either.

They stop the run just fine, actually, and rack up more sacks. 

JJ Watt has played one less game and has 74.5 sacks, which is more than double Wilkerson's 36.5. I see wilkerson as 75% of the player of JJ Watt which is why I feel he deserves to be paid in the $11-12 million range. And I would have been very happy if they would have gotten that deal done last offseason, but then we drafted Leonard Williams, and there's no longer room for that kind of spending on the DL. 

 

 

 

 

[Larz]

ok this is my last mo post

 

the jets need to keep their best player, with the obvious exception of if he wants more than watt.    turning him into 3 jags is dumb

please tag him already !!!!!!!

[Ex-Rex]

The14th and 20th picks might get the Jets a move into the top 5 where they could get a Wentz or Goff. I think the Jets can absorb the loss of Mo with Williams, Snacks and Richardson. Fitz will most likely be the QB in 2016 but a competition between Petty and Wentz would produce a good starter and backup. Second round would have to address OL for sure. LB's can come later though there will some temptation to get Ragland, Jaylon Smith and an OL. QB in second round would be someone like Connor Cook.

[Raideraholic]

21 minutes ago, Larz said:

ok this is my last mo post

 

the jets need to keep their best player, with the obvious exception of if he wants more than watt.    turning him into 3 jags is dumb

please tag him already !!!!!!!

Muhammad Wilkerson has been a good employee for the Jets , has done everything the organization ask from him.    Didn't hold out when he didn't get the contract he thought he was deserved.( a lot of NFL players wouldn't have done that).

He gambled on himself , and he had a monster year.    It's time to pay your best player Muhammad Wilkerson , even if it cost you Snacks.( will never be the player Wilkerson is). Pay the man just entering his prime.( paying Revis the money they did on backend of his career was crazy).

[SenorGato]

Quote

They stop the run just fine, actually, and rack up more sacks. 

Cool, ask them to do that while playing Wilkerson's role in a 3-4 defense rather than getting to pin back and rush.

Quote

JJ Watt has played one less game and has 74.5 sacks, which is more than double Wilkerson's 36.5. I see wilkerson as 75% of the player of JJ Watt which is why I feel he deserves to be paid in the $11-12 million range. And I would have been very happy if they would have gotten that deal done last offseason, but then we drafted Leonard Williams, and there's no longer room for that kind of spending on the DL. 

There's plenty of room for that kind of spending on the DL. Also Watt gets 6 games against the ColtS, Titans, and Jaguars OL so I subtract 6 sacks a season. 

Quote

Well, if a guy is trying to paid like the best (JJ Watt), I'd expect him to maybe show up in the game against him, maybe have numbers similar to his, and maybe overcome a double team from time to time. I know, 'baseless'... aka you don't watch games thoroughly, or more than once. Just because he's the best on the team doesn't mean we have to obey his prices, especially with all the leverage we have on him because of SHeldon and Leo. Mo's future with this team was sealed with the promising performance of Leonard Williams' rookie year.

1 - OTOH he's better than guys like Gerald McCoy and Marcell Dareus, who also signed extensions. You keep bringing up Watt, a player no one disputes is better than Wilkerson, but - as with most of your "analysis"from editing sacks to matchups to the new trick where everyone on the Jets DL secretly sucks,  there's no real perspective or analysis offered by that.

2 - At least there's the shot you might understand how much you say is baseless.

3 - Williams also being really good has nothing to do with Wilkerson. They need two DEs, they'll be keeping the one that has performed to an elite level the past 4 years.

BTW: It's still more hilariously bad than even interesting to pretend the whole DL isn't worth much now. Youre just shooting from the hip and hoping to hit on something relevant, but still not there yet.  

As far as the pick they'd get for Richardson....Id have my eye on OT Shon Coleman....but really, I understand bringing that up was a way to still never have to answer where the money and draft pick would go if they let Wilkerson go (not that that's actually going to happen). 

[JetPotato]

Ugh. Nothing worse than the "Von Miller would have less sacks if he were asked to do what Mo does" argument.

The reason the Jets d-linemen are "asked to do what they do" is specifically because not a single one of them can do the things that Von Miller can do. No one on the Jets EVER takes over a game. Not one player on the team is capable of it. If they could, the coaches wouldn't be doing anything to take them out of a position where they could.

[SenorGato]

10 minutes ago, JetPotato said:

Ugh. Nothing worse than the "Von Miller would have less sacks if he were asked to do what Mo does" argument.

The reason the Jets d-linemen are "asked to do what they do" is specifically because not a single one of them can do the things that Von Miller can do. 

Yes, and Von Miller isn't asked to do what they do because he can't do what they do. He also is suspectible to the many Wilkerson and now Jets DL only "issues" - such as disappearing at times and taking advantage of favorable matchups.

If you read the thread there's plenty worse than bringing up that Miller can't do what Wilkerson and the other DEs here do or can do. At least that's the reality. Removing sacks while judging 3-4 DEs soooolely on sacks (when, relative to position they're all very good at that and against the pass in general) is much worse. 

 

 

[jetrider]

1 hour ago, Ex-Rex said:

The14th and 20th picks might get the Jets a move into the top 5 where they could get a Wentz or Goff. I think the Jets can absorb the loss of Mo with Williams, Snacks and Richardson. Fitz will most likely be the QB in 2016 but a competition between Petty and Wentz would produce a good starter and backup. Second round would have to address OL for sure. LB's can come later though there will some temptation to get Ragland, Jaylon Smith and an OL. QB in second round would be someone like Connor Cook.

Why not Lynch or Goff?

[BroadwayJets]

7 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

Cool, ask them to do that while playing Wilkerson's role in a 3-4 defense rather than getting to pin back and rush.

There's plenty of room for that kind of spending on the DL. Also Watt gets 6 games against the ColtS, Titans, and Jaguars OL so I subtract 6 sacks a season. 

1 - OTOH he's better than guys like Gerald McCoy and Marcell Dareus, who also signed extensions. You keep bringing up Watt, a player no one disputes is better than Wilkerson, but - as with most of your "analysis"from editing sacks to matchups to the new trick where everyone on the Jets DL secretly sucks,  there's no real perspective or analysis offered by that.

2 - At least there's the shot you might understand how much you say is baseless.

3 - Williams also being really good has nothing to do with Wilkerson. They need two DEs, they'll be keeping the one that has performed to an elite level the past 4 years.

BTW: It's still more hilariously bad than even interesting to pretend the whole DL isn't worth much now. Youre just shooting from the hip and hoping to hit on something relevant, but still not there yet.  

As far as the pick they'd get for Richardson....Id have my eye on OT Shon Coleman....but really, I understand bringing that up was a way to still never have to answer where the money and draft pick would go if they let Wilkerson go (not that that's actually going to happen). 

-Watt does play the same exact position that Mo does.

-Not when you're trying to improve other positions

- 43DTs don't play the same position as Mo. I bring up Watt because he's the gold standard you think Mo is.

-you know way less than you think you do.

-so the pick we'd get for Mo would be a JAG yet the pick we get for Richardson would be Shon Coleman. WTF man?  

[Raideraholic]

11 minutes ago, JetPotato said:

Ugh. Nothing worse than the "Von Miller would have less sacks if he were asked to do what Mo does" argument.

The reason the Jets d-linemen are "asked to do what they do" is specifically because not a single one of them can do the things that Von Miller can do. No one on the Jets EVER takes over a game. Not one player on the team is capable of it. If they could, the coaches wouldn't be doing anything to take them out of a position where they could.

Von Miller can't do what Muhammad Wilkerson can do( can't play every position on the defensive line) . Like Muhammad Wilkerson can't do what Von Miller does. ( Isn't the fast twitch pass rusher - takes him more time to get there).

The NFL is a passing league and Von Miller ability to apply instant pressure makes him more valuable than Muhammad Wilkerson.     

Not to take anything away from Muhammad Wilkerson, but no Gm would take Him over Von Miller.

[SenorGato]

10 minutes ago, BroadwayJets said:

-Watt does play the same exact position that Mo does.

-Not when you're trying to improve other positions

- 43DTs don't play the same position as Mo. I bring up Watt because he's the gold standard you think Mo is.

-you know way less than you think you do.

-so the pick we'd get for Mo would be a JAG yet the pick we get for Richardson would be Shon Coleman. WTF man?  

- Cool, he's also long recognized as the one guy better at it than Wilkerso this decade throughout the thread. I understand that's the best you've got is - to pretend Wilkerson is being argued as Watt's equal - but there's more than just these two players at the position in the NFL.

- Yes, while you're trying to improve other positions.

- Dareus is a 3-4 DL. 4-3 DT is much closer to the role of 3-4 DE than whatever sack oriented position you imagine 3-4 DL should be compared to.

- Still, at least in this case, more than you.

- Relative to Wilkerson, a prime aged elite NFL talent with 4+ years of high quality production under his belt, you are probably getting a JAG. Interesting that you keep somehow avoiding the FA part of the question. How many FAs and who gets what for that money? Why couldn't the Jets sign these players without losing their best player? Stuff and things?

[Savage69]

22 minutes ago, BroadwayJets said:

-Watt does play the same exact position that Mo does.

-Not when you're trying to improve other positions

- 43DTs don't play the same position as Mo. I bring up Watt because he's the gold standard you think Mo is.

-you know way less than you think you do.

-so the pick we'd get for Mo would be a JAG yet the pick we get for Richardson would be Shon Coleman. WTF man?  

And Snacks doesn't play the position that Mo does but that doesn't stop you from saying Mo would be better at NT then Snacks.. Can Mo play QB better then Fitz??

[SenorGato]

16 minutes ago, Savage69 said:

And Snacks doesn't play the position that Mo does but that doesn't stop you from saying Mo would be better at NT then Snacks.. Can Mo play QB better then Fitz??

Wilkerson has played the nose - in fact he did it sometimes during the 46+% of the snaps Snacks was vacationing on the sidelines last year and the 50+% of the snaps Snacks missed in previous seasons. Then there's the two seasons Wilkerson thrived in before Snacks, when Wilkerson started playing every spot on the DL in any front.

That said, as your previous statements demonstrate, working with the reality of the situation isn't your strong suit. Stick to mediocre remarks about Wilkerson's HOF chances.

[BroadwayJets]

29 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

- Cool, he's also long recognized as the one guy better at it than Wilkerso this decade throughout the thread. I understand that's the best you've got is - to pretend Wilkerson is being argued as Watt's equal - but there's more than just these two players at the position in the NFL.

- Yes, while you're trying to improve other positions.

- Dareus is a 3-4 DL. 4-3 DT is much closer to the role of 3-4 DE than whatever sack oriented position you imagine 3-4 DL should be compared to.

- Still, at least in this case, more than you.

- Relative to Wilkerson, a prime aged elite NFL talent with 4+ years of high quality production under his belt, you are probably getting a JAG. Interesting that you keep somehow avoiding the FA part of the question. How many FAs and who gets what for that money? Why couldn't the Jets sign these players without losing their best player? Stuff and things?

The Bills switched to a 34 this year, and digressed as a unit. Rex effect. Thrived previously in a 43. Didn't really pay attention to how he did this season.

 

Have you asked me once the FA question? Or did Larz ask somebody else that? The latter.

 

Since you asked:

Tag and trade Mo for a top 40 pick.

Cut Cro, Kerley, Cumby, (try to restructure brick, if not, cut him), if brick restructures - cut Breno.

Should leave us at about $28mil under

Resign Fitz, Powell, Henderson. costs us about $7-9mil for fitz, $3 for Powell and $2-3 for Henderson. give or take $14-15mil under

sign Andre Smith OT to replace the OT we lost. Around $6 mil a year.

Sign a pass rusher, Perry is intriguing and shouldn't cost too much. Around $4-5 mil a year, leaves us with enough for the draft class.

Take the best LB available with the 20th pick (ragland?) maybe Decker falls to us, take Conklin/Spriggs with Mo's pick, Nick Martin with the 52th pick. Haven't watched any of Coleman yet, maybe him.

From there, I'd try to get a FS to develop for a year until we cut gilly next year, RB, raw WR with some upside to develop under Bmarsh and Decker. 

As I think Troll said earlier, we have a lot of old guys, our drafts will likely have to be development oriented. Not much $ to go around this offseason. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SenorGato]

18 minutes ago, BroadwayJets said:

The Bills switched to a 34 this year, and digressed as a unit. Rex effect. Thrived previously in a 43. Didn't really pay attention to how he did this season.

Have you asked me once the FA question? Or did Larz ask somebody else that? The latter.

Since you asked:

Tag and trade Mo for a top 40 pick.

Cut Cro, Kerley, Cumby, (try to restructure brick, if not, cut him), if brick restructures - cut Breno.

Should leave us at about $28mil under

Resign Fitz, Powell, Henderson. costs us about $7-9mil for fitz, $3 for Powell and $2-3 for Henderson. give or take $14-15mil under

sign Andre Smith OT to replace the OT we lost. Around $6 mil a year.

Sign a pass rusher, Perry is intriguing and shouldn't cost too much. Around $4-5 mil a year, leaves us with enough for the draft class.

Take the best LB available with the 20th pick (ragland?) maybe Decker falls to us, take Conklin/Spriggs with Mo's pick, Nick Martin with the 52th pick. Haven't watched any of Coleman yet, maybe him.

From there, I'd try to get a FS to develop for a year until we cut gilly next year, RB, raw WR with some upside to develop under Bmarsh and Decker. 

As I think Troll said earlier, we have a lot of old guys, our drafts will likely have to be development oriented. Not much $ to go around this offseason. 

- The Bills, like every defense out there, play and played both fronts before becoming a more full time 3-4 D. Dareus was an end on in some packages and a DT in others, just like Wilkerson.

- I've asked a few times actually.

- You're not getting Andre Smith for 6 million. He just made ~$6.4 and did nothing to get a pay cut on the open market.

- You can sign Nick Perry without losing Wilkerson.

- You can still sign FItzpatrick, Powell, and Henderson with Wilkerson.

- So basically, the one FA you can't afford with Wilkerson on this list is a guy you don't even want to pay up for on the FA market. Not only that but somehow trading Wilkerson's imagined contract in your head turns into 5(!!!) FAs. You then trade the team's best and most valuable player for a pick that doesn't even have to be in the first round, and take a developmental OL prospect that won't even start right away? Holy **** balls...I thought it was bad before....now that the master plan has finally been revealed it's actually worse than I imagined it.

 

 

[BroadwayJets]

11 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

- The Bills, like every defense out there, play and played both fronts before becoming a more full time 3-4 D. Dareus was an end on in some packages and a DT in others, just like Wilkerson.

- I've asked a few times actually.

- You're not getting Andre Smith for 6 million. He just made ~$6.4 and did nothing to get a pay cut on the open market.

- You can sign Nick Perry without losing Wilkerson.

- You can still sign FItzpatrick, Powell, and Henderson with Wilkerson.

- So basically, the one FA you can't afford with Wilkerson on this list is a guy you don't even want to pay up for on the FA market. Not only that but somehow trading Wilkerson's imagined contract in your head turns into 5(!!!) FAs. You then trade the team's best and most valuable player for a pick that doesn't even have to be in the first round, and take a developmental OL prospect that won't even start right away? Holy **** balls...I thought it was bad before....now that the master plan has finally been revealed it's actually worse than I imagined it.

 

 

Please do the math and show your work, mister cut Brick, Mangold and Giacomini.

[SenorGato]

41 minutes ago, BroadwayJets said:

Please do the math and show your work, mister cut Brick, Mangold and Giacomini.

LOLZ, not surprised to see a suddenly different standard after that atrocious offseason that moves the team backwards.

Rest assured, the Jets can cut (Cromartie, D'Brick, Cumberland, Kerley, Bohanon, Stacy, Stanford, several bottom of the 51 or off 51 guys like Jesse Davis and Julian Stamford), trade (Richardson, Mangold?), and restructure (Marhsall, Revis) their way to 35+ million dollars in cap space.

I would then:

Resign Wilkerson to a 6 year $110 deal with $62 million in guarantees...Base salaries between $8 (year 1) and 12.5 million (final 2, both cuttable seasons)....Structure the bonus so that his cap hit starts at $15 million and never goes above $18 million - all during a span of years the cap is expected to climb.

Resign Fitzgerald for 3/27 with 12 million in guarantees, structured for about a 7 million cap hit in 2016.

Sign Ronnie Hillman to a 3 year 5-6 million dollar contract, a million in guarantees, with about a million dollar cap hit in 2016.

Resign Henderson to a 2 year 2.5 million dollar deal, a million in guarantees with a million dollar salary in 2016. 

Sign Mitchell Schwartz (5 years at ~25 million, ~10 in guarantees), Nick Perry (5 years/ 30 million, ~9 million guaranteed), Zac Brown LB, and unless the Raiders move quickly - Marquette King their P.

I'd then trade Richardson to the Seahawks for their 2016 first (pick 26), their 4th, and OT Terrry Poole.

[southparkcpa]

2 hours ago, SenorGato said:

Yes, and Von Miller isn't asked to do what they do because he can't do what they do. He also is suspectible to the many Wilkerson and now Jets DL only "issues" - such as disappearing at times and taking advantage of favorable matchups.

If you read the thread there's plenty worse than bringing up that Miller can't do what Wilkerson and the other DEs here do or can do. At least that's the reality. Removing sacks while judging 3-4 DEs soooolely on sacks (when, relative to position they're all very good at that and against the pass in general) is much worse. 

 

 

Mo is  great but Mo is slow.    He is worth about 75 percent of Watt or Von Miller IMO.