Warren Moon: QB play shows NFL needs a developmental league

[Ex-Rex]

3 hours ago, Mike135 said:

“The NFL needs a farm system, like it used to have with NFL Europe,” Moon said. “It gives them those reps. Think about guys like Kurt Warner, Jon Kitna and Brad Johnson, who all played overseas and benefitted from the experience.”

The problem with a developmental league is that it would cost the NFL’s owners a lot of money to get it started. That’s why owners have so far been lukewarm to the idea. Moon, however, thinks a developmental league would be a wise investment.

Most kids that go to college to play football and are drafted are over age 21 or 22. Then to go to a "developmental" league would put them at 24-25 before they were ready to play in the NFL. Makes for a short career and what happens if they don't develop? I am of the opinion that you learn by doing and yes sometimes it is ugly - like Geno Smith's years - but that is why you draft a QB EVERY YEAR. I think the Jets are doing Petty a disservice by sitting him when playing time would pay dividends down the road. But there is too much "politics" in football which means the HC will play the one who gives the "best chance to win now" rather than waiting for a youngster to get his feet under him. Hence we have Fitzpatrick instead of Petty.

[Snell41]

Again I will state, the answer is not developmental leagues and conversions of CFL or other leagues to function as farm teams. They don't work. They never have.

The answer is in the collective bargaining agreement. Set the practice limitations to years of service. Allow NFL teams to have larger rosters, and allow them to designate a subset of that roster for year round practice and participation. Keep these developmental players with the team at all times, not sent off to some foreign country. A guy like Hackenburg should be getting real reps every day both in and out of season. Allow for an expansion in coaching staffs to accommodate. Allow developmental designated players to scrimmage and practice all year with other teams developmental teams. And allow teams to restrict those players from signing elsewhere by imposing a salary cap by player, or have a situation where developmentally designated players are signed for 2 years and can't be plucked by other teams.


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[shawn306]

How about this...

Instead of making the NFL all about the QB how bout making it about the TEAM ? 

DUH

[Mike135]

59 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

Most kids that go to college to play football and are drafted are over age 21 or 22. Then to go to a "developmental" league would put them at 24-25 before they were ready to play in the NFL. Makes for a short career and what happens if they don't develop? I am of the opinion that you learn by doing and yes sometimes it is ugly - like Geno Smith's years - but that is why you draft a QB EVERY YEAR. I think the Jets are doing Petty a disservice by sitting him when playing time would pay dividends down the road. But there is too much "politics" in football which means the HC will play the one who gives the "best chance to win now" rather than waiting for a youngster to get his feet under him. Hence we have Fitzpatrick instead of Petty.

Remove college from the equation.  The NFL has relied upon them as a minor league of sorts, but they've obviously failed miserably.  And let's not pretend like kids get quality educations the majority of times as football stars.

Give 18 year olds the option to have FT jobs playing and learning ball.  Make it flexible and allow (even help pay for) the kids to go to college.  

If the NCAA sees this happening and then decides to stop with the gimmicky BS that is college football...  awesome!  But it's time to stop relying on the fools to produce quality players.

[JiFtheOracle]

1 hour ago, section314 said:

Which makes what Prescott has done so far even more remarkable. Aikman said it a few weeks back that Dak came from a system where he was never under center. Having the best Oline in the biz obviously helps, burt still pretty impressive, none the less.

It's crazy.  I liked Dak coming out as a late round flier because you cant deny the talent and athleticism.  I figured he'd be a huge project coming out of Dan Mullen's system.  I was dead wrong.  

However, it helps to have the best run game in the league...which is kind of getting back to what I was saying.

[JiFtheOracle]

1 hour ago, Lupz27 said:

Pat Mahomes II says hello.

Meaning...coming out of a flukey, gimicky system in a league that doenst know you're allowed to stop the other team? 

[win4ever]

This isn't quite as simple as the other systems.

Inherently, football is a team sport more so than baseball or basketball.  Baseball is almost purely a collection of individual match ups, while basketball relies a bit more on a team frame work, but still heavily on individual match ups.   

The problem is the size of the league.  It's a great idea, if you can find 53 guys per team (and since this would be minor leagues for each team, 32 teams) thus a total of 1696 players.  Taking out the backup guys and all, you would still need to find 22 guys per team for a total of 704 players.  These players have to be at a good standard because as a team game, you can take advantage of the weakling on defense or offense.  

As Jet fans, we should know this better than anyone with this year's offense.  Ryan Fitzpatrick is horrible at deep passes.  So how do you evaluate Robby Anderson? When he's running by CBs, is it because he's that much better than them?  Or is it because the defense is playing against the QB and hedging their bet that they won't throw it deep?  If so, if Anderson makes a good comeback route, but it is well covered, is it because he can't run that route effectively?  Or is the defense sitting on that route?  

Same thing happens on defense, if some guy just isn't cut out to be a good defender, teams will attack that guy relentlessly.  So, now the defense has to adjust accordingly by rolling coverage over to his side, which frees up guys on the other end?  How do you evaluate that guy?  Is the offensive player open because he's more talented or disciplined?  Or because the defense on that side is trying to compensate for Kyle Wilson on the other end?

Then it also boils down the system issue that you see in college, with spread offenses.  Spread offenses work to mitigate the differences in talent between high powered teams in college, and guys that aren't as highly recruited.  So a team like Baylor can recruit the heck out of speed, and know that they can try to beat you with that because they know the highly recruiting colleges also have to recruit for a balanced team.  So spread offenses can now match up better because that team can't match say Baylor's speed, so they spread them out for individual match ups and says our guys are faster than yours.   What prevents this minor league team from doing the same, knowing they may not have the same talent as some other team?  What if the Jags are looking for a speed guy from their minor leagues (much like how baseball grooms relief pitchers, or basketball looks for certain skills like a 3 point shooter) and they pool together 4 guys that are extremely quick, and spread them out?  Who is going to stop them from doing so?  The same problem facing college football is going to come to the minor leagues.  The systems are there to bridge the inequality gap, but that same gap is going to exist in this minor league as well.  

I don't think a minor league system is feasible because the game just isn't set up for it.  They need bigger practice squad rosters that allot more payments to these players, so the ones that are somewhat talented don't go to the CFL or Arena Football or some other profession altogether, and then control the circumstances of their play.  Like an instructional league in baseball.  Otherwise, we are going to have the same problems as with college football, which makes the problem redundant IMO.  You are not going to find 700 somewhat equally talented guys to make the rosters across the board, so there will be vast differences in team talent, which equates to lack of certainty with scouting, alas the present day problem in college football.  

You need a system, where teams can control the tempo on both sides, the match ups, etc.  The only way to do that is increase the practice squad salary and size, control the environment, and evaluate from there.  Stream those practices for all I care.  Considering the amount of interest at the combine and OTAs, I'm sure there is a market for it, just not as big as another league.  

[varjet]

College football is too profitable on its own to focus too much on preparing players for the NFL.

For many teams, they can recruit good athletes and train them in a system that result in college wins without alot of time or experience.

The question then becomes whether players want to play for those college teams, or would prefer to play QB at North Dakota State where they can get a real pro experience.  

For practical purposes this is about QB play.  The CBA needs to provide exceptions for QB slots on rosters and the ability to train and instruct QBs during the offseason.  It would be nice if they could get more game experience somehow (a practice squad league from February to April?), but teams need to be incentivized to train more QBs.  There are not enough capable QBs to play NFL football, which is sad for a nation of 320 million people where football generates 10s of billions a year.  We can't find 64 QBs?

[Beerfish]

6 minutes ago, varjet said:

College football is too profitable on its own to focus too much on preparing players for the NFL.

For many teams, they can recruit good athletes and train them in a system that result in college wins without alot of time or experience.

The question then becomes whether players want to play for those college teams, or would prefer to play QB at North Dakota State where they can get a real pro experience.  

For practical purposes this is about QB play.  The CBA needs to provide exceptions for QB slots on rosters and the ability to train and instruct QBs during the offseason.  It would be nice if they could get more game experience somehow (a practice squad league from February to April?), but teams need to be incentivized to train more QBs.  There are not enough capable QBs to play NFL football, which is sad for a nation of 320 million people where football generates 10s of billions a year.  We can't find 64 QBs?

It's sheer and utter lunacy that they don;t provide a 3rd and even 4th QB game day roster spot. When we start talking about playing bilal powel and julian eldleman at QB when there are 3rd nd 4th QB's on a team is just buffonery, but the NFL seems to love buffonery rules.

[Larz]

never gonna happen because money

[Villain The Foe]

5 hours ago, Beerfish said:

They should simply make an agreement with the CFL for loaning players.  An already established league and though the rules are different players still benefit from the playing time.  A reasonable number of CFL players go back to the NFL each year at least to get to camps.  Some of them make it full time in the NFL and some are even high end players.

Existing league that has survived long term whom you already have a pretty good relationship, cooperative on the costs thus keeping them low. 

I really dig this idea, though it'll never happen. 

[Lupz27]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

Meaning...coming out of a flukey, gimicky system in a league that doenst know you're allowed to stop the other team? 

Yeah, and unfortunately for him he has NFL talent, probably the most talented QB in college, but stuck in a gimmicky system, and will start light years behind others coming out who have basic knowledge of a offense that he won't have.

[Snell41]

This isn't quite as simple as the other systems.
Inherently, football is a team sport more so than baseball or basketball.  Baseball is almost purely a collection of individual match ups, while basketball relies a bit more on a team frame work, but still heavily on individual match ups.   
The problem is the size of the league.  It's a great idea, if you can find 53 guys per team (and since this would be minor leagues for each team, 32 teams) thus a total of 1696 players.  Taking out the backup guys and all, you would still need to find 22 guys per team for a total of 704 players.  These players have to be at a good standard because as a team game, you can take advantage of the weakling on defense or offense.  
As Jet fans, we should know this better than anyone with this year's offense.  Ryan Fitzpatrick is horrible at deep passes.  So how do you evaluate Robby Anderson? When he's running by CBs, is it because he's that much better than them?  Or is it because the defense is playing against the QB and hedging their bet that they won't throw it deep?  If so, if Anderson makes a good comeback route, but it is well covered, is it because he can't run that route effectively?  Or is the defense sitting on that route?  
Same thing happens on defense, if some guy just isn't cut out to be a good defender, teams will attack that guy relentlessly.  So, now the defense has to adjust accordingly by rolling coverage over to his side, which frees up guys on the other end?  How do you evaluate that guy?  Is the offensive player open because he's more talented or disciplined?  Or because the defense on that side is trying to compensate for Kyle Wilson on the other end?
Then it also boils down the system issue that you see in college, with spread offenses.  Spread offenses work to mitigate the differences in talent between high powered teams in college, and guys that aren't as highly recruited.  So a team like Baylor can recruit the heck out of speed, and know that they can try to beat you with that because they know the highly recruiting colleges also have to recruit for a balanced team.  So spread offenses can now match up better because that team can't match say Baylor's speed, so they spread them out for individual match ups and says our guys are faster than yours.   What prevents this minor league team from doing the same, knowing they may not have the same talent as some other team?  What if the Jags are looking for a speed guy from their minor leagues (much like how baseball grooms relief pitchers, or basketball looks for certain skills like a 3 point shooter) and they pool together 4 guys that are extremely quick, and spread them out?  Who is going to stop them from doing so?  The same problem facing college football is going to come to the minor leagues.  The systems are there to bridge the inequality gap, but that same gap is going to exist in this minor league as well.  
I don't think a minor league system is feasible because the game just isn't set up for it.  They need bigger practice squad rosters that allot more payments to these players, so the ones that are somewhat talented don't go to the CFL or Arena Football or some other profession altogether, and then control the circumstances of their play.  Like an instructional league in baseball.  Otherwise, we are going to have the same problems as with college football, which makes the problem redundant IMO.  You are not going to find 700 somewhat equally talented guys to make the rosters across the board, so there will be vast differences in team talent, which equates to lack of certainty with scouting, alas the present day problem in college football.  
You need a system, where teams can control the tempo on both sides, the match ups, etc.  The only way to do that is increase the practice squad salary and size, control the environment, and evaluate from there.  Stream those practices for all I care.  Considering the amount of interest at the combine and OTAs, I'm sure there is a market for it, just not as big as another league.  

I have about 10 posts in this thread saying the same thing lol. It's mind boggling that this isn't so blatantly obvious.


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[jetophile]

Remember the Warren Moon domestic violence case?  That was nuts. One juror said the reason for his acquittal was because, "There's some type of slapping in most marriages." The F.  Turns out ex-wife is off her rocker now, but the reasons some of the jurors gave was like something from 1760.

Tasteless jokes are coming.

[Mecca]

4 hours ago, Snell41 said:

 

In your proposal how do you think you would make it a profitable or even break even, which the NFL couldn't do? TV revenue was nearly non-existent even though game attendance was fair. Serious question.


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Marketting. 

 

The idea that a city can essentially take over ownership of a club, like it is in America. Like a Tottenham Eagles or Chelsea Jets. It would be a D-League in Europe where players that teams have rights to will stash. Example, Hackenberg starting a game in Europe would draw hundreds of thousands of American viewers off of wanting to watch Hackenberg play. 

The season would also be from June-October so you can use players you drafted or signed overseas and attract football fans whom want to see some of there young talent. Obviously all picks wouldn't play. Mostly day 3 picks and developmental QB's, but the interest remains high.

[jetophile]

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/mac-engel/article10645799.html

lol

[Snell41]

Marketting. 
 
The idea that a city can essentially take over ownership of a club, like it is in America. Like a Tottenham Eagles or Chelsea Jets. It would be a D-League in Europe where players that teams have rights to will stash. Example, Hackenberg starting a game in Europe would draw hundreds of thousands of American viewers off of wanting to watch Hackenberg play. 
The season would also be from June-October so you can use players you drafted or signed overseas and attract football fans whom want to see some of there young talent. Obviously all picks wouldn't play. Mostly day 3 picks and developmental QB's, but the interest remains high.

Ok, glad you used Hackenburg in your example. So, who's coaching him out there in Europe? This is our 2nd round pick after all, right? Is he going to a solely Jets related European team? Is the European team going to have players from multiple teams? If so, how do the Jets have any assurance whatsoever that the European team has their player's best interest in mind over some other team's guy? Also, since this Euro league has affiliation with the NFL, how does it circumvent the current collective bargaining agreement?

You mention the season is June to October. First of all that's right during preseason. These players would be in NFL camps stateside. At least any player remotely close to being worth watching, thus taking away your theoretical hundreds of thousands of stateside viewers. Let's completely look past that debate ending fact and pretend it doesn't exist for a moment. Hundreds of thousands of viewers is a pittance. TV channels might put a rerun of the game on say NFL network at 3am. Advertisers will not be supporting hundreds of thousands of viewers during a prime slot. Which is good actually, because no on in the summer is going to stop their prime time plans to watch UPS drivers. Nobody watches them when they play stateside in the game 4 preseason except extremely diehard fans.

Sorry brother, but this idea has failed already multiple times. It's not viable, never was, never will be.


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[flgreen]

Would love a developmental league.  One formed last year, and tried to sell it to the NFL.  NFL declined.

Another thing they could do is negotiate an exemption for QB's in  the CBA's your can't talk to players in the off season rule.

Won't happen.  Vets will never support a rule that threatens their jobs.   

[Bugg]

4 hours ago, JiF said:

It's crazy.  I liked Dak coming out as a late round flier because you cant deny the talent and athleticism.  I figured he'd be a huge project coming out of Dan Mullen's system.  I was dead wrong.  

However, it helps to have the best run game in the league...which is kind of getting back to what I was saying.

Figure if every team has a minor league team, a few major changes would have to be made. 

Practice squad goes bye bye. Figure you can bring guys up from your minor league team during the season, and send them down. 

NFL rosters would need to get smaller. You cannot have more than 80 active players between 2 squads. 

Need to expand or modify injures reserve and salary cap.

Also, if you're gonna do all this, gotta throw players a bone. Make college players who's class has completed their sophomore season eligible for draft. This won't be popular with the NCAA; too bad, they will live. Make signing players like hockey and baseball; team retains right to negotiate with player for 2 seasons. Player can go back to school. But after 2 seasons he's a free agent. 

The NFL have been either whole or part owners of the NFL Europe, Arena League and and the FXFL(very recently in 2014 and 2015). So it's something they have done, but not to the degree proposed here.  

 

[Jetster]

I'm so sick of having no QB it's just getting ridiculously frustrating. I'm just done with it & until we find a QB, it's just painful to watch these games. 

Thats why Jet fans are so pissed about the defense, Revis & Mo especially. Big money, no production! We were hoping for at least AVERAGE play from Fitz but EXPECTED the defense to be way above average.

Well we all know how that's worked out so without a franchise QB & not having a dominant defense it's a hopeless situation where it's all about next year already. 

Great, we gets to watch the Pats go 15-1, home field throughout & only having to win 2 playoff games to get to another Super Bowl. It's like Groundhog Day and it's getting pretty damn boring & the NFL is suffering for it overall.

[win4ever]

9 hours ago, Snell41 said:

 

I have about 10 posts in this thread saying the same thing lol. It's mind boggling that this isn't so blatantly obvious.


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The NFL would sell branded diapers if they thought it would make money, so it's telling that they are staying away from this.

Only other option is like a skills league challenge or something like the combine (but more position specific) where you have pre-select guys trying to accomplish these goals and some people tune in like the combine.  

[PCP63]

If it makes you guys feel any better, if my fitness app kicks off, and I become rich, I'll create my own football league. No roughing the passer/kicker, no holding , no pass interference, no punting, no extra points. Less formation rules.

[hawk]

22 hours ago, Mike135 said:

The problem with a developmental league is that it would cost the NFL’s owners a lot of money to get it started. That’s why owners have so far been lukewarm to the idea. Moon, however, thinks a developmental league would be a wise investment.

I agree it would be expensive, but teams could sell the rights to individuals.  People would line up for the opportunity to throw there money at the nfl.

[Beerfish]

Warren Moon developmental league, 5 years in the CFL.

[The Crimson King]

They actually had this years ago with the Continental Football League (late 60'), One year the Brooklyn Dodgers played at Randall's Island. They played on Friday or Saturday night and the games were on Ch.11 as they played teams like the Hartford Charter Oaks. IIRC, the QB was Tom Kennedy who became a Giants backup for a year or two.  

The Atlantic Coast League was a bit more like what is being called for here with about 10 or so of the teams that served as a minor league affiliates for a short period including the Bridgeport Jets,  Long Island Bulls (Giants), Pottstown Firebirds (Eagles) and Lowell Giants (Patriots). Other than Jim "King" Corcoran, Marvin Hubbard and Bob Tucker, I can't think of anyone from this league who made an NFL impact.

More recently was the Fall Experimental League that only survived two seasons as they never received any NFL support. This was the league with the Brooklyn Bolts (Taj Boyd at QB) and the Hudson Valley Fort, who both played n the local NY-P ballparks to miniscule crowds  

All somewhat interesting but ultimately failures because of the lack of viable minor league fields, the high cost of running football teams and the difficulty of building any fan base due to college and NFL competition.  

 

 

 

[Adoni Beast]

This needs to happen for all positions to get better, but yes especially Quarterback. I think that offensive linemen would benefit the second most from a developmental league.

This won't happen because as many have states already the owners don't want to invest any $ in it. But increased quality of play will increase the crap that the NFL has been shoveling out for awhile now.

[PCP63]

JN should pool together a good $10M or so to make this league happen.

[Adoni Beast]

What failed NFL Europe was the lack of connection fans had to the teams. Football is very much a territorial "war-minded" sport. Fans pride the turf war aspect of it. 

If a new NFL developmental league had direct connction to NFL teams, like baseball I think that would help its appeal. Think of how many Jets fans would watch if we had our own development team.

Now the issue is that owners don't want to pay for this. But we wouldn't need all 32 teams to have a team. You could make incentives for teams to make them want one.

Lets say you need a minimum of 8 teams. You start the league a week or two after the super bowl. The season should end around Memorial Day to give any players who teams want to sign to regular NFL time to heal and get ready dor training camp.

Incentives for teams to have their own "jv team" :

- You have the right to match any offer another team makes on a player who is on your jv team.

- You can put anybody thats already on your 53 man roster and practice squad into the developmental team.

- You can assign anybody from your coaching staff (or hire from elsewhere obviously) to a position on the jv team. So lets say we want Patullo to get some play calling experience, or other position assistants some coordinator exerience, or Rodgers some secondary coaching experience lol, or Bowles to practice his time management lol etc.

That ability to groom and develop not only your players, and coaching staff. I think would be incentive enough to get AT LEAST about 8 teams to sign up, definitely more.

Just my two cents.

[UnitedWhofans]

If we had a developmental league, we wouldnt be worrying about getting Petty or Hackenberg reps. They would be getting them

The big problem is that NFL careers dont last as long as MLB or NBA careers, which is odd because NFL players play less than people in those sports, and collisions occur in the NBA all the time

[Jets_Win]

On November 3, 2016 at 0:13 PM, Beerfish said:

They should simply make an agreement with the CFL for loaning players.  An already established league and though the rules are different players still benefit from the playing time.  A reasonable number of CFL players go back to the NFL each year at least to get to camps.  Some of them make it full time in the NFL and some are even high end players.

Existing league that has survived long term whom you already have a pretty good relationship, cooperative on the costs thus keeping them low. 

I think this is a good idea. Other professional sports leagues worldwide have loan systems. Why not the NFL and CFL.

[Snell41]

I think this is a good idea. Other professional sports leagues worldwide have loan systems. Why not the NFL and CFL.

Because there's absolutely nothing in it for the CFL.


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[Jets_Win]

Actually there is for the same reason players can be loaned in other leagues: better athletes and more wins.

[Sperm Edwards]

The funny part about some of these suggestions is no one is thinking of what the players themselves want to do. I mean, it's the league should do this, the owners & individual team franchises should do that, who should pay for what, how many players each team can or should allocate to playing after the season's over, etc. Just send the player, to NFLE or the CFL to a different work camp (and the player can't really say no). That there could hopefully be some tangible benefit to the player is irrelevant; these guys don't play at 25% speed or play flag football. There is serious injury risk even in a semipro league.

For every example of a player straightening himself out in NFLE, CFL, or wherever, there has got to be a couple dozen (over that same time frame) that just worked their way up, watching film and healing to 100% over the offseason -- and did so without another mini-season of competitive ball that comes with full-pay, permanent injury risks (particularly positions like RB). To just limit it to lower-injury-risk positions isn't really playing football; you need all of them to get a game going. If such a league existed (like NFLE used to) and the player wants to go there himself, that's one thing. Teams allotting certain players to go (i.e. tell him he has to go or he's cut) is crap. If he doesn't go there's a real risk of being branded as uncooperative and could get blacklisted in a sense.

I wish a minor league existed also, in theory, but with so many super-specialized positions that don't translate at all to other positions, and given the head & body damage that comes with playing and colliding helmets even more, it's just not as easy to get going as some other sports. And none of the above takes into consideration any spectator interest in watching a new minor league that might help it pay its way.

[Snell41]

Look, what you want is for the young players to be with the team, working with team coaches. Expansion leagues don't work in football. Never has, never will. The players need to stay with the team.

The way you do that is expand the coaching staff, expand the roster, and revisit the collective bargaining rules. Allow teams to sign a certain number of players as "developmental". Designate a mandate for # of years in the league to dictate whether a player can be listed as "developmental". Remove the practice limitations from these players and allow them to work with coaches all year round. Put a max on the number of years a player may be listed as "developmental" at 2 years. The ones that need it will be around the facility more, getting more reps in the system (as opposed to some other league system), and being evaluated firsthand. If you have to, make a rule that if a developmental player plays in a real game he can no longer be designated as developmental. It will make coaches think twice before throwing a guy out there before he's ready.


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