Is Macc really smart or really stupid?

[NoBowles]

2 minutes ago, rangerous said:

right.  the only thing he hasn't done yet is get a good qb on the team.  is hack the answer?  still a maybe but considering where this team started, it's about where they should be in their pursuit for a good qb.  geno proved to be a loser and fitz just another journeyman and lynch is the only other qb they had a shot at in the drft so far.

as for the free agents he brought in, i didn't exactly hear anyone complain about any of the signings.  maybe a tinge about revis' contract but not about getting him back.

There was a ton of crying over Cro, but that was likely a Bowles move. Some complained about Skrine too.

[rangerous]

1 minute ago, NoBowles said:

There was a ton of crying over Cro, but that was likely a Bowles move. Some complained about Skrine too.

maybe but not like the crying and criticism now. hindsight is 20-20.

[rangerous]

3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm ok with that -- if it's for a player on offense that will help a young QB develop. Great blocking & receiving assets, veterans who know what the hell they're doing, etc. But gobbling up cap flexibility to overpay for an oft-injured ILB while we're not even contenders? 

Like with any other veteran, if they overpaid this one player $3m per, it's not good but not tragic either. Problem is it's happening with almost every signing.

• Ijalana is a $2.5-3m backup and we wait until he's a UFA to pay him double.
• After a pretty bad 2016 season, Beachum shouldn't be getting twice the guaranteed money Clady got last year.
• After seeing him start 10 games in 2015, they should have had Winters locked up at $4-5m (under the very real threat of making him a backup his last year here).
• Revis made $19m per for 1 good year and one meh-to-bad year.
• Cro was overpriced by $3m for his 1 yr here.
• Harris was overpriced by $2m per.
• Skrine at $6m was just stupid. 
• Putting Giacomini on PUP instead of cutting him at the end of August, and in doing so guaranteeing his $5m at an absolute minimum rate of $500k/game that ended up being $1m/game.
• Putting the squeeze on Brick a year too late, and even in '16 it was done after the non-Clady options had dried up but before the draft lol.
• Guaranteeing 2 years and $9m to a 31-year old RB with 2000 carries of NFL punishment under his belt, then almost that amount to 28 yr old Powell the very next day, forgoing 2017 comp draft picks for each one. You do one of them, not both.
• Jarvis Jenkins for $3m
• Ryan effing Fitzpatrick at $12m at the effing end of effing July. 

And almost all of this is just over his first 2 years.

Though some are worse than others, it's not any one of them; it's all of them an extra $2-3m each (or all $12m of it in Fitz's case). Then people wonder how we could have started this offseason $8m over the cap despite only having a sh*tty roster that managed 5 wins last year (and even that pathetic total required beating only the winless Browns, the Ravens with Flacco nursing a bum shoulder, a late-season OT win against the 1-win 49ers, and a wk 17 win vs the Bills, who fired their HC a week early just so they could bench their only competent QB against us).

The only truly good deal we've gotten under Macc, that we're all happy with for more than 1 season, is Carpenter. And that one was a lot of luck, since he's been better for us than he was with Seattle, and we kind of ended up with him more than we truly coveted/targeted him. 

nice to see your hindsight is 20-20.  in truth you may be right about the signings but they did win 10 games in 2015, an event that was totally unexpected even if you want to consider their "easy" schedule (no such thing).  and you also have no explanation of how they could possibly have won 5 games nor came very close to having an 8-8 record in spite of all those "bad" signings.  finally go add up the money and you'll find that the bulk of it was chewed up by the revis contract.  you also seem to think that mac can strongarm players like brick to take pay cuts etc.  brick is a pretty smart guy and he wanted to get out of the game with all of his marbles.  we also don't know if mac made some sort of overture to players like brick.

i'm not saying that mac hasn't made mistakes.  even the bellichicken drafted 3 tight ends in the first two rounds one year and none of them stuck.  but, man, considering what he started with he hasn't done so badly.  and nobody has any idea what kind of pressure is on him to make some decisions by woody. 

[Jets1214]

3 hours ago, dcJet said:

Great post, except for the bolded part.  Please don't mess with our 10-6 season. That was one of the best things that happened to us in recent years, not the worst. 

If you didnt enjoy that season, then why are you even watching football?

Well let me put it this way.  While it is fun to watch much of 2015, the 10 wins were really a mirage.  EVERYTHING broke right for us...schedule, health, aging vets having big years, getting actual high level QB play for some of the season.  And yet, despite all that we STILL missed the playoffs and got smoked by just about every good team we played.  But because we went 10-6, there were unrealistic expectations for 2016 and it just delayed our rebuild another year.  This team should have been torn down after the Idzik disaster.  Instead they re signed a 34 year old QB who had never beaten a .500+ team on the road in his career and never saw a playoff game, relied on the same aging vets, and what happened...5-11 disaster and the inevitable rebuild.

So while 10-6 may have been fun for a while in 2015, in the end it really did more ham then good since it just delayed what had to happen...AND we didn't even make the playoffs.  I have been a fan for a very long time.  I've seen plenty of 10 and 9 win seasons that amounted to not much.  I watch football in the hope that my team can win the SB, or at least compete for it, each year.  That 2015 team didn't eve make the playoffs and a year after it ended we are in worse shape and staring at a rebuild the size we haven't seen since Kotite was around.  

So I respectfully disagree.  While winning 10 games in 2015 may have given some a bit of short lived gratification, in the long run it just delayed this rebuild by two years and did more harm then good.  Again, The goal is not to win 10 games, its to win or contend for a SB.  That 2015 team had barely a slim chance of winning a SB and as it turned out couldn't even make the playoffs.  Had we actually torn it down prior to 2015 and started the rebuild then, who knows where we'd be today. I can't imagine it would be worse then where we currently are.

[Ex-Rex]

12 hours ago, Freemanm said:

Given his do nothing approach to free agency, in which all he's done is sign a washed up tackle and kicker, as well as overpay some scrubs (I won't even get into his pathetic attempt to lure Hightower), does he have some sort of brilliant master plan that no one seems to know about or does his non-action signify that he is totally incompetent?

This is a rebuilding year, and you don't go balls to the wall in FA, especially when you are limited in funds. I like that Mac's focus seems to be on the draft first and foremost. This is a critical draft for the Jets and they have got to have a good one or this rebuild will have to start over with a new front office. If the draft is a success then you go for it in FA and voila you are back to respectability. I don't think Mac has made any glaring errors with his picks - Christian Hackenberg not withstanding - so let's see how the draft pans out before passing judgement.

[jack48]

17 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Ideally, yes. But as great as it is to happen, kinda have to be realistic about a kid right out of school not yet making everybody better. Not saying he needs to be carried (read: hidden) like we've done in the past, but the position is hard enough (and is why you're seeing guys like Fitz, Osweiller, Glennon, etc. get paid). If it was so easy to just plug & play, teams wouldn't desperately reach for QBs in the draft (and frankly, in FA) every year.

Plus then there are no "what if" discussions, had the Jets provided their young QB with better talent around him. Anyway, I just think if you're going to overpay stupidly, at least do it to ease the transition from college to NFL for the guy who we hope will become the most important player on the team.

True. I am just thinking that we are PROBABLY NOT geting the guy soon.  I would sit on my hands until we do.  Our pro.blem is paying guys big money for the last years of productivity they have.  Signing some talented wideouts now could wind up being the same thing.

[jack48]

17 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

Brady is in a system he knows inside and out a system hes been in for 17 years thats what makes that team tick and its also what makes it easy to plug in players. The only way a QB is going to be able to elevate other players around him is years of playing in the same system

I never hear people tell me how brilliant the NE OC is.  All I hear is how brilliant Brady is.  I think you are right about their system.  But Brady is really good as well.

[UnitedWhofans]

15 hours ago, Jets1214 said:

Well let me put it this way.  While it is fun to watch much of 2015, the 10 wins were really a mirage.  EVERYTHING broke right for us...schedule, health, aging vets having big years, getting actual high level QB play for some of the season.  And yet, despite all that we STILL missed the playoffs and got smoked by just about every good team we played.  But because we went 10-6, there were unrealistic expectations for 2016 and it just delayed our rebuild another year.  This team should have been torn down after the Idzik disaster.  Instead they re signed a 34 year old QB who had never beaten a .500+ team on the road in his career and never saw a playoff game, relied on the same aging vets, and what happened...5-11 disaster and the inevitable rebuild.

So while 10-6 may have been fun for a while in 2015, in the end it really did more ham then good since it just delayed what had to happen...AND we didn't even make the playoffs.  I have been a fan for a very long time.  I've seen plenty of 10 and 9 win seasons that amounted to not much.  I watch football in the hope that my team can win the SB, or at least compete for it, each year.  That 2015 team didn't eve make the playoffs and a year after it ended we are in worse shape and staring at a rebuild the size we haven't seen since Kotite was around.  

So I respectfully disagree.  While winning 10 games in 2015 may have given some a bit of short lived gratification, in the long run it just delayed this rebuild by two years and did more harm then good.  Again, The goal is not to win 10 games, its to win or contend for a SB.  That 2015 team had barely a slim chance of winning a SB and as it turned out couldn't even make the playoffs.  Had we actually torn it down prior to 2015 and started the rebuild then, who knows where we'd be today. I can't imagine it would be worse then where we currently are.

The question then becomes if we had beaten Buffalo and went to play Cincy in the WC round, would we have won? I don't think we would have won. In fact. it is very probable that if we made the playoffs, we would have given Fitzpatrick more money

So the only thing that was really wasted, IMO, was time

[Sperm Edwards]

16 hours ago, rangerous said:

nice to see your hindsight is 20-20.  in truth you may be right about the signings but they did win 10 games in 2015, an event that was totally unexpected even if you want to consider their "easy" schedule (no such thing).  and you also have no explanation of how they could possibly have won 5 games nor came very close to having an 8-8 record in spite of all those "bad" signings.  finally go add up the money and you'll find that the bulk of it was chewed up by the revis contract.  you also seem to think that mac can strongarm players like brick to take pay cuts etc.  brick is a pretty smart guy and he wanted to get out of the game with all of his marbles.  we also don't know if mac made some sort of overture to players like brick.

i'm not saying that mac hasn't made mistakes.  even the bellichicken drafted 3 tight ends in the first two rounds one year and none of them stuck.  but, man, considering what he started with he hasn't done so badly.  and nobody has any idea what kind of pressure is on him to make some decisions by woody. 

No, it was 20/20 back then. I'm not going to pretend I expected the level of dropoff from Revis, but I never liked the idea of spending on older players with a 1-2 yr shelf life while the team was without a starting QB, and said so extensively back then. 

Brick said himself that getting out had little to nothing to do with the Concussion movie. He got out because he was told to take a $6m pay cut for his final season. More than trying to rationalize the "real" reason he retired, I take the man at his word: he knew it was time because he couldn't play nearly at the level he once could, and he hated being a sucky player whose best/only attribute at that point was staying injury-free. One thing if the Jets were going to pay him $11m more to be sucky; another thing if it was only $5m (of which half goes to taxes) when he's already plenty rich.

The "we don't know if" line of thinking is an old cop-out: it presumes, without any basis for it, that he did the most optimistically-awesome thing in any/every situation, instead of what's right in front of our faces. 

"Considering what he started with"? He started with a no-brainer 6th overall draft pick to not draft a bust, with Williams and Beasley the only realistic options. He also started with a virtually limitless amount of cap space -- an amount that only grew when he dumped Percy Harvin, and that should have grown more if he'd dumped Ferguson that year like he should have. Considering what he started with, he has done pretty badly. All that money on all those contracts and what do we have to show for it in March of his 3rd year here? 

Lastly, you do have "any idea what kind of pressure" Woody put on him -- Maccagnan said himself that Woody lets him (and Davidson) do what they want without Woody's meddling, just like with Idzik before him and probably with Tannenbaum before Idzik. Your desire for that to be the story doesn't make it so. Take Maccagnan man at his own word, since he didn't have to say or allude anything of the sort. 

[rangerous]

9 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No, it was 20/20 back then. I'm not going to pretend I expected the level of dropoff from Revis, but I never liked the idea of spending on older players with a 1-2 yr shelf life while the team was without a starting QB, and said so extensively back then. 

Brick said himself that getting out had little to nothing to do with the Concussion movie. He got out because he was told to take a $6m pay cut for his final season. More than trying to rationalize the "real" reason he retired, I take the man at his word: he knew it was time because he couldn't play nearly at the level he once could, and he hated being a sucky player whose best/only attribute at that point was staying injury-free. One thing if the Jets were going to pay him $11m more to be sucky; another thing if it was only $5m (of which half goes to taxes) when he's already plenty rich.

The "we don't know if" line of thinking is an old cop-out: it presumes, without any basis for it, that he did the most optimistically-awesome thing in any/every situation, instead of what's right in front of our faces. 

"Considering what he started with"? He started with a no-brainer 6th overall draft pick to not draft a bust, with Williams and Beasley the only realistic options. He also started with a virtually limitless amount of cap space -- an amount that only grew when he dumped Percy Harvin, and that should have grown more if he'd dumped Ferguson that year like he should have. Considering what he started with, he has done pretty badly. All that money on all those contracts and what do we have to show for it in March of his 3rd year here? 

Lastly, you do have "any idea what kind of pressure" Woody put on him -- Maccagnan said himself that Woody lets him (and Davidson) do what they want without Woody's meddling, just like with Idzik before him and probably with Tannenbaum before Idzik. Your desire for that to be the story doesn't make it so. Take Maccagnan man at his own word, since he didn't have to say or allude anything of the sort. 

whatever.  everyone has their own opinions. i still disagree on a number of points.  if mac has made a mistake it's in not finding a qb, yet.  i don't fault the free agents because he had to shake the team up and give them hope.  as for woody, i think mac says one thing in public and another when he's talking to woody.  whether woody likes it or not, mac and bowles rely on his concurrence with decisions because of the way the organization is structured.  i'm not one for having long complex organizations but someone competent in football really needs to have final say, if it gets to that. 

[Lil Woody]

I for one like Mac's direction. Execution will be key though.  But NOT chasing other peoples trash in free agency is a start of an ideal build strategy. Stupid teams use FA to get good fast. Then they have to win a SB in a 1-2 year window before it all implodes and they go in a 5 year tailspin and reloading process.. Smart teams build through the draft and look at FA as a necessary evil to round out a competitive roster. I get that our fanbase is a petulant, whiny one that generally looks for immediate gratification over intelligent planning, but for once this team is following a smart blueprint and I hope Mac gets enough time to see it through.  It is going to take a lot for that to happen. Woody will need to grow a spine and ingnore the media trolls like Cimini and Mehta who will look to get Mac's head on a pike by next season.and by doing so will rile up all the "Ira from Staten Island type" fans in the tri-state area who basically listen to the anti-jets media and promptly regurgitate all of it as gospel. .

In a perfect world, Mac gets to hire his own coach next year after effectively tanking the season by forcing development of young players as the primary goal for the season.  Just hope the lemmings don't get ansy and force Woody to go chase a bunch of mediocre losers like Cutler or whoever to try to "win now".  As if going 6-10 instead of 2-12 is different somehow.

[dcJet]

17 hours ago, Jets1214 said:

Well let me put it this way.  While it is fun to watch much of 2015, the 10 wins were really a mirage.  EVERYTHING broke right for us...schedule, health, aging vets having big years, getting actual high level QB play for some of the season.  And yet, despite all that we STILL missed the playoffs and got smoked by just about every good team we played.  But because we went 10-6, there were unrealistic expectations for 2016 and it just delayed our rebuild another year.  This team should have been torn down after the Idzik disaster.  Instead they re signed a 34 year old QB who had never beaten a .500+ team on the road in his career and never saw a playoff game, relied on the same aging vets, and what happened...5-11 disaster and the inevitable rebuild.

So while 10-6 may have been fun for a while in 2015, in the end it really did more ham then good since it just delayed what had to happen...AND we didn't even make the playoffs.  I have been a fan for a very long time.  I've seen plenty of 10 and 9 win seasons that amounted to not much.  I watch football in the hope that my team can win the SB, or at least compete for it, each year.  That 2015 team didn't eve make the playoffs and a year after it ended we are in worse shape and staring at a rebuild the size we haven't seen since Kotite was around.  

So I respectfully disagree.  While winning 10 games in 2015 may have given some a bit of short lived gratification, in the long run it just delayed this rebuild by two years and did more harm then good.  Again, The goal is not to win 10 games, its to win or contend for a SB.  That 2015 team had barely a slim chance of winning a SB and as it turned out couldn't even make the playoffs.  Had we actually torn it down prior to 2015 and started the rebuild then, who knows where we'd be today. I can't imagine it would be worse then where we currently are.

This post is ridiculous.  We watch the game for entertainment.  Were you not entertained?

For the first time in many seasons, I planned my Sundays around the Jets game.   I pumped my fist with joy and agonized too.  That's  why we watch.  For it to have meaning.  Don't toss away our 10-6 season like you would rather have gone 6-10.  We've seen that too much.

[BCJet]

On 3/16/2017 at 0:05 PM, j4jets said:

We dropped Cro after one year after signing him to a 4 year deal. That's a failure you fail to recognize. Wilkerson (the fat Wilkerson now) showed signs he would turn in to the next Fat Albert. He's on a good track. His injury is just an excuse. He played every game. There's a reason why Idzik didn't cave in to that temptation.

Buster Skrine was paid CB2 money when we signed him. He's not even a good slot corner. He's CB4 at best, unless you're planning on tanking, which we probably are this year. 

Hold that thought for a second. The entire fanbase was split in half when it came to Fitz last year. And Marshall, Decker and Mangold were his 3 biggest supporters. I didn't see the team walk out on the CS/FO in protest. What I did see was Macc caving into Fitz' demand. Fool me once (Buffalo), shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me (Macc). I valued that garbage around $6mil. I over valued him. Macc valued him at $12mil. 

Every single major contract Macc handed out has either been cut, or failed him (except Carpenter, which was a solid signing, for a change). 

Can you explain why Giac was on our roster last year? Or how about why Hackenberg never took the field in a year we had nothing to lose? 

Cro is not a failure that I fail to recognize because I actually look at contract numbers.  Yes he was cut one year after signing a "4 year deal" except that 4 year deal was actually a 1 year contract as we cut him with ZERO dead money.  Is that a bad singing?  We took a risk on a player, with no long term ramifications, who had played well for the new HC?  You do realize that in Mac's first year we had an obscene amount of cap space that the team had to use - so instead of bogging us down for multiple seasons with bad contracts, Mac spent short money which have enabled us to now move on from some of the veterans.

Skrine got a total of $13 million guaranteed, that is slot corner money and he is not overpaid to do that job.  Again - were you complaining about him in 2015 or just 2016 when he was asked to do more then he is capable of.  Hes not a star, never was paid like a star and is far from a big mistake.

I cant explain why we paid fitz $12 million but it in hindsightit was clearly a mistake, and I fully blame Mac's inexperience in making that mistake.  And no i have no idea why we kept Breno, other then his salary was guaranteed for 2016 and there was no benefit to cutting him.

What you fail to mention in all of your posts is that we actually have promising young players on this team, that Mac drafted or signed.  Those players, are young and werent capable of overcoming putrid QB play and veteran infighting in the lockerroom but to simply not acknowledge how much improvement Jordan Jenkins and Darron Lee had during the course of the season, or that Robby Anderson and Charone Peake look like viable contributors and both were found after the 6th round.

I dont know why we picked Hackenberg, and ultimately Mac will be judged heavily on that, but is there another QB out there he failed to acquire and should have?  He inherited a roster completely devoid of talent and has started to build it back up.  I am happy to have him in charge of this draft

[Lil Woody]

6 minutes ago, dcJet said:

This post is ridiculous.  We watch the game for entertainment.  Were you not entertained?

For the first time in many seasons, I planned my Sundays around the Jets game.   I pumped my fist with joy and agonized too.  That's  why we watch.  For it to have meaning.  Don't toss away our 10-6 season like you would rather have gone 6-10.  We've seen that too much.

Yes, it was entertaining...and it was a fun ride.  But most fans knew once we got into the playoffs, we were dead in the water because of QB. So in that sense the entertainment is flat. There was no potential to win a SB and we all knew that.  We were just praying for a Giants/Steelers/Ravens type hot streak to win 4 in a row.  But realistically we didn't have the potential for it. 

The failure was chasing it AGAIN last year. That's where you have to be honest with yourself and say, look, we had a nice ride but we overachieved greatly, caught a lot of lucky bounces, played good teams when they were down, and while I can appreciate the magic carpet ride let's be realistic and not try to get any more blood from that stone.

[dcJet]

Mac bet on lightning striking twice with Fitz, it didnt work out.

Please tell me how we are better off today without the Fitz signing in 2015?  No QB was coming here for 18M/2years to save this team and with Geno starting, we get the same unwatchable seaason and still go 5-11. 

The Fitz, contract was a mistake but not a catastrophic one.   Now the Revis deal... that hurts.

[Sperm Edwards]

29 minutes ago, rangerous said:

whatever.  everyone has their own opinions. i still disagree on a number of points.  if mac has made a mistake it's in not finding a qb, yet.  i don't fault the free agents because he had to shake the team up and give them hope.  as for woody, i think mac says one thing in public and another when he's talking to woody.  whether woody likes it or not, mac and bowles rely on his concurrence with decisions because of the way the organization is structured.  i'm not one for having long complex organizations but someone competent in football really needs to have final say, if it gets to that. 

He hasn't made "a" mistake. Everybody makes "a" mistake. Everybody makes multiple mistakes. My issue is his success to failure rate is really pretty bad, particularly for established FA signings which are more predictable than draft picks. Also I don't love where he's decided to pour the team's resources.

The "he had to" reason is also unconvincing. He did not have to. If he wanted to spend even before a starting QB was in place, fine; then spend on guys in their mid-20s not guys in their 30s, and with the amount spent in FA we should have one of the league's premiere OLs instead of one of the crappiest ones. There is no evidence that Woody is or has ever been forcing his hand to do anything, let alone that Woody demanded he wanted to spend 9 figures on players who are (and will continue to be) getting tangibly worse every year if they stay healthy. 

That said, you'll get no argument from me that the organizational structure is asinine, where Woody personally and separately hires a GM and a HC, force-feeding one upon the other, without any prior knowledge if they even share the same philosophies as to the types of players they'd seek out individually. Is it any wonder we don't get the pick of the litter when filling either job?

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

He hasn't made "a" mistake. Everybody makes "a" mistake. Everybody makes multiple mistakes. My issue is his success to failure rate is really pretty bad, particularly for established FA signings which are more predictable than draft picks. Also I don't love where he's decided to pour the team's resources.

The "he had to" reason is also unconvincing. He did not have to. If he wanted to spend even before a starting QB was in place, fine; then spend on guys in their mid-20s not guys in their 30s, and with the amount spent in FA we should have one of the league's premiere OLs instead of one of the crappiest ones. There is no evidence that Woody is or has ever been forcing his hand to do anything, let alone that Woody demanded he wanted to spend 9 figures on players who are (and will continue to be) getting tangibly worse every year if they stay healthy. 

That said, you'll get no argument from me that the organizational structure is asinine, where Woody personally and separately hires a GM and a HC, force-feeding one upon the other, without any prior knowledge if they even share the same philosophies as to the types of players they'd seek out individually. Is it any wonder we don't get the pick of the litter when filling either job?

I think he did indirectly, by dumping Idzik after two years. That leaves an impression

[dcJet]

52 minutes ago, Lil Woody said:

Yes, it was entertaining...and it was a fun ride.  But most fans knew once we got into the playoffs, we were dead in the water because of QB. So in that sense the entertainment is flat. There was no potential to win a SB and we all knew that.  We were just praying for a Giants/Steelers/Ravens type hot streak to win 4 in a row.  But realistically we didn't have the potential for it. 

The failure was chasing it AGAIN last year. That's where you have to be honest with yourself and say, look, we had a nice ride but we overachieved greatly, caught a lot of lucky bounces, played good teams when they were down, and while I can appreciate the magic carpet ride let's be realistic and not try to get any more blood from that stone.

Wrong.   We were coming off a 10-6 successful season.  That's exactly when you "chase it". 

It fell apart because of bad QB play which led to losing which led vets quitting and bad locker room.  No GM blows up a team after a 10-6 season.

[dcJet]

18 hours ago, Jets1214 said:

Well let me put it this way.  While it is fun to watch much of 2015, the 10 wins were really a mirage.  EVERYTHING broke right for us...schedule, health, aging vets having big years, getting actual high level QB play for some of the season.  And yet, despite all that we STILL missed the playoffs and got smoked by just about every good team we played.  But because we went 10-6, there were unrealistic expectations for 2016 and it just delayed our rebuild another year.  This team should have been torn down after the Idzik disaster.  Instead they re signed a 34 year old QB who had never beaten a .500+ team on the road in his career and never saw a playoff game, relied on the same aging vets, and what happened...5-11 disaster and the inevitable rebuild.

So while 10-6 may have been fun for a while in 2015, in the end it really did more ham then good since it just delayed what had to happen...AND we didn't even make the playoffs.  I have been a fan for a very long time.  I've seen plenty of 10 and 9 win seasons that amounted to not much.  I watch football in the hope that my team can win the SB, or at least compete for it, each year.  That 2015 team didn't eve make the playoffs and a year after it ended we are in worse shape and staring at a rebuild the size we haven't seen since Kotite was around.  

So I respectfully disagree.  While winning 10 games in 2015 may have given some a bit of short lived gratification, in the long run it just delayed this rebuild by two years and did more harm then good.  Again, The goal is not to win 10 games, its to win or contend for a SB.  That 2015 team had barely a slim chance of winning a SB and as it turned out couldn't even make the playoffs.  Had we actually torn it down prior to 2015 and started the rebuild then, who knows where we'd be today. I can't imagine it would be worse then where we currently are.

No team "tears it down" after a 10-6 season.   You go after it.

[rangerous]

34 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

He hasn't made "a" mistake. Everybody makes "a" mistake. Everybody makes multiple mistakes. My issue is his success to failure rate is really pretty bad, particularly for established FA signings which are more predictable than draft picks. Also I don't love where he's decided to pour the team's resources.

The "he had to" reason is also unconvincing. He did not have to. If he wanted to spend even before a starting QB was in place, fine; then spend on guys in their mid-20s not guys in their 30s, and with the amount spent in FA we should have one of the league's premiere OLs instead of one of the crappiest ones. There is no evidence that Woody is or has ever been forcing his hand to do anything, let alone that Woody demanded he wanted to spend 9 figures on players who are (and will continue to be) getting tangibly worse every year if they stay healthy. 

That said, you'll get no argument from me that the organizational structure is asinine, where Woody personally and separately hires a GM and a HC, force-feeding one upon the other, without any prior knowledge if they even share the same philosophies as to the types of players they'd seek out individually. Is it any wonder we don't get the pick of the litter when filling either job?

look, it's like i said before.  the way the organization is structured woody can't help but influence bowles and macs decisions no matter how much they try to spin it publicly.  you can argue that it's direct or indirect the result is the same.  and a lot of the arguments seem to rest on mac being able to make the deals he wants.  you know better than that.  just like when they picked gholston.  they had no real choice because it was a crappy draft class and there weren't any sensible offers to trade down. same thing can be said of the leo pick.  or brick. or just about any free agent they bring in or trade deal. with the exception of the revis contract none were really that terrible.  mac is a breath of fresh air after two seasons of idzik and the last 3 of tanny.

imo, last season wasn't about the overall team talent.  it was all about desire and few bad apples who did not inspire the players around them. they didn't play as a team.

[Lil Woody]

9 minutes ago, dcJet said:

Wrong.   We were coming off a 10-6 successful season.  That's exactly when you "chase it". 

It fell apart because of bad QB play which led to losing which led vets quitting and bad locker room.  No GM blows up a team after a 10-6 season.

If you were honest with your QB assessment you would have seen that implosion coming a mile a way. In fact most fans did. You can't make your decisions based on the pulse of the media and fan desires. A good GM needs to do what is in the teams interest even when the whole world is screaming at them to go for it.

[Jets1214]

1 hour ago, Lil Woody said:

Yes, it was entertaining...and it was a fun ride.  But most fans knew once we got into the playoffs, we were dead in the water because of QB. So in that sense the entertainment is flat. There was no potential to win a SB and we all knew that.  We were just praying for a Giants/Steelers/Ravens type hot streak to win 4 in a row.  But realistically we didn't have the potential for it. 

The failure was chasing it AGAIN last year. That's where you have to be honest with yourself and say, look, we had a nice ride but we overachieved greatly, caught a lot of lucky bounces, played good teams when they were down, and while I can appreciate the magic carpet ride let's be realistic and not try to get any more blood from that stone.

Exactly.  And for me, "entertainment" means either having a shot at a SB or at the very least building towards one.  2015 in my mind was neither.  Yes there were some fun games in there but it was a hollow attempt by Woody to keep fans interested rather then build a truly competitive SB team.  To me just being "good" and finishing over 500 or being in a playoff chase that realistically has no chance of advancing to a SB in is not "entertainment".  Its just the same "tease" that this franchise has been torturing us with for 50 years.

[Jets1214]

1 hour ago, dcJet said:

This post is ridiculous.  We watch the game for entertainment.  Were you not entertained?

For the first time in many seasons, I planned my Sundays around the Jets game.   I pumped my fist with joy and agonized too.  That's  why we watch.  For it to have meaning.  Don't toss away our 10-6 season like you would rather have gone 6-10.  We've seen that too much.

We will have to agree to disagree on that front.  In the last 50 years of watching this team I have seen plenty of "entertaining" 8,9 and even 10 win seasons that amounted to nothing and at the end of the day, we still havent won a SB since 1969.  Entertainment for me is either watching a team that can legitimately contend for a SB OR watch one that is building towards that.  Watching a team win 10 games against an easy schedule with a 34 year old journeyman QB who has never sniffed a playoff game to me was a charade.  And it lead to another vain attempt to "go for it" in 2016 which lead us to the depths we are in today.  Record to me is much less of an issue then the direction of the team.  I enjoyed our 3-11 1977 season A LOT because the team finally started the post Namath rebuild with talented youth.  I loved the 2009 and 2010 seasons because we were legit SB contenders.  2015 we were really neither of those things.

[slats]

26 minutes ago, dcJet said:

Wrong.   We were coming off a 10-6 successful season.  That's exactly when you "chase it". 

It fell apart because of bad QB play which led to losing which led vets quitting and bad locker room.  No GM blows up a team after a 10-6 season.

The so-called professionals in charge should've recognized that 2015 was, indeed, a mirage. The team was not good, the QB was not good. The schedule was the easiest in the league, and week after week the Jets faced teams with significant injuries. I could see that clearly thru a bourbon haze on my living room couch, Mac and Bowles should've been able to access the team honestly as well. 

I get the issues with going thru a full-blown rebuild after any 10 win year, but they also could've been much more pragmatic without raising any alarms. 

[Sperm Edwards]

31 minutes ago, rangerous said:

look, it's like i said before.  the way the organization is structured woody can't help but influence bowles and macs decisions no matter how much they try to spin it publicly.  you can argue that it's direct or indirect the result is the same.  and a lot of the arguments seem to rest on mac being able to make the deals he wants.  you know better than that.  just like when they picked gholston.  they had no real choice because it was a crappy draft class and there weren't any sensible offers to trade down. same thing can be said of the leo pick.  or brick. or just about any free agent they bring in or trade deal. with the exception of the revis contract none were really that terrible.  mac is a breath of fresh air after two seasons of idzik and the last 3 of tanny.

imo, last season wasn't about the overall team talent.  it was all about desire and few bad apples who did not inspire the players around them. they didn't play as a team.

How is it there were no sensible offers for the Jets to trade down from #6, where the last of the (alleged) blue-chip prospects was still on the board, yet there were sensible offers for NE to trade down from #7? Of course they had a choice. I don't know why you insist on believing GMs are trapped into making the decisions they made freely.

Mac is nothing remotely close to being a breath of fresh air (particularly with his presumed coffee breath and gassiness). The team last year sucked. It was poorly constructed of players with mismatched abilities, either innately or at those stages of their careers. 

Nobody sensible signs a bunch of 30-something defenders for the crazy amounts of money, while the team doesn't even have a known anything of a starting QB, and only exhibits a half-assed effort to get a good one in either season. Organizational structure being bad doesn't mean organizational structure causes him to repeatedly exercise such poor judgment and lack of foresight.

[NoBowles]

14 minutes ago, slats said:

The so-called professionals in charge should've recognized that 2015 was, indeed, a mirage. The team was not good, the QB was not good. The schedule was the easiest in the league, and week after week the Jets faced teams with significant injuries. I could see that clearly thru a bourbon haze on my living room couch, Mac and Bowles should've been able to access the team honestly as well. 

I get the issues with going thru a full-blown rebuild after any 10 win year, but they also could've been much more pragmatic without raising any alarms. 

Other than signing Forte and bringing back Fitzpatrick on a one year deal, what else did they do that wasn't pragmatic? Neither had any real outcome on this year, since we were going to suck bad either way.

[rangerous]

29 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

How is it there were no sensible offers for the Jets to trade down from #6, where the last of the (alleged) blue-chip prospects was still on the board, yet there were sensible offers for NE to trade down from #7? Of course they had a choice. I don't know why you insist on believing GMs are trapped into making the decisions they made freely.

Mac is nothing remotely close to being a breath of fresh air (particularly with his presumed coffee breath and gassiness). The team last year sucked. It was poorly constructed of players with mismatched abilities, either innately or at those stages of their careers. 

Nobody sensible signs a bunch of 30-something defenders for the crazy amounts of money, while the team doesn't even have a known anything of a starting QB, and only exhibits a half-assed effort to get a good one in either season. Organizational structure being bad doesn't mean organizational structure causes him to repeatedly exercise such poor judgment and lack of foresight.

whatever.  that's twice in the same thread.  i can't imagine what jet gm or that of any other team ever reached your standards. i'm sure you had trouble with vince friggin lombardi. 

[peekskill68]

22 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm ok with that -- if it's for a player on offense that will help a young QB develop. Great blocking & receiving assets, veterans who know what the hell they're doing, etc. But gobbling up cap flexibility to overpay for an oft-injured ILB while we're not even contenders? 

Like with any other veteran, if they overpaid this one player $3m per, it's not good but not tragic either. Problem is it's happening with almost every signing.

• Ijalana is a $2.5-3m backup and we wait until he's a UFA to pay him double.
• After a pretty bad 2016 season, Beachum shouldn't be getting twice the guaranteed money Clady got last year.
• After seeing him start 10 games in 2015, they should have had Winters locked up at $4-5m (under the very real threat of making him a backup his last year here).
• Revis made $19m per for 1 good year and one meh-to-bad year.
• Cro was overpriced by $3m for his 1 yr here.
• Harris was overpriced by $2m per.
• Skrine at $6m was just stupid. 
• Putting Giacomini on PUP instead of cutting him at the end of August, and in doing so guaranteeing his $5m at an absolute minimum rate of $500k/game that ended up being $1m/game.
• Putting the squeeze on Brick a year too late, and even in '16 it was done after the non-Clady options had dried up but before the draft lol.
• Guaranteeing 2 years and $9m to a 31-year old RB with 2000 carries of NFL punishment under his belt, then almost that amount to 28 yr old Powell the very next day, forgoing 2017 comp draft picks for each one. You do one of them, not both.
• Jarvis Jenkins for $3m
• Ryan effing Fitzpatrick at $12m at the effing end of effing July. 

And almost all of this is just over his first 2 years.

Though some are worse than others, it's not any one of them; it's all of them an extra $2-3m each (or all $12m of it in Fitz's case). Then people wonder how we could have started this offseason $8m over the cap despite only having a sh*tty roster that managed 5 wins last year (and even that pathetic total required beating only the winless Browns, the Ravens with Flacco nursing a bum shoulder, a late-season OT win against the 1-win 49ers, and a wk 17 win vs the Bills, who fired their HC a week early just so they could bench their only competent QB against us).

The only truly good deal we've gotten under Macc, that we're all happy with for more than 1 season, is Carpenter. And that one was a lot of luck, since he's been better for us than he was with Seattle, and we kind of ended up with him more than we truly coveted/targeted him. 

Based on your assessment of Winters above,  do you feel Macc is messing up now by not extending Enunwa? 

[slats]

19 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

Other than signing Forte and bringing back Fitzpatrick on a one year deal, what else did they do that wasn't pragmatic? Neither had any real outcome on this year, since we were going to suck bad either way.

Cap room rolls under the new CBA, and those contracts represent money that could've been used for better, younger players now and in the future. That Fitzpatrick contract was complete stupidity. Failing to trade Muhammad Wilkerson and then signing him to a long term deal appears to be another major mis-two-step. Various other unneccesary free agent signings cost them comp picks, for a team looking to build thru the draft. Ryan Clady cost money and a pick for nothing. 

[DMan77]

He's competent. Not terrible, not great. So far he's been average in my eyes... He's learning too, remember. I think he's done well this off season compared to last. 

[NoBowles]

5 minutes ago, slats said:

Cap room rolls under the new CBA, and those contracts represent money that could've been used for better, younger players now and in the future. That Fitzpatrick contract was complete stupidity. Failing to trade Muhammad Wilkerson and then signing him to a long term deal appears to be another major mis-two-step. Various other unneccesary free agent signings cost them comp picks, for a team looking to build thru the draft. Ryan Clady cost money and a pick for nothing. 

I agree with you on the Wilkerson issue, it was an awful move if we can assume he ever had a legitimate trade offer for him. The rest of them were part of their attempt to win last year in the sense of making the playoffs, and I am yet to understand from anyone how we would be in any different position this year, given we don't have a QB. Everything else they did had very little impact IMO. At the end of the day, he will either find a QB, or he won't. The rest of the complaints against him are not seeing the forrest through the trees. 

[Beerfish]

I've said it before I'll say it again.  Just like our last GM the current one is hamstrung by a lousy coach who has no firm direction and thinks he is D genius.

Despite the coach and Gm appearing to be happy and cordial they are on the same level not coach under GM.  If you are the gm and looking at the draft and ask the acoh what kind of defense we are playing and he says 'hybrid' how the hell do you draft?

All three of our LB picks of the last two years are suited to a 3-4 D imo.  We have 3 possible impact dlineman and if you want to play them all you MUST play a 4-3.  The ILB (Lee) we drafted last year is not at all a Deone Buchanan type of player.

Our veteran OC who it was said was going to leave this year no matter what leaves a huge development void for the newly drafted QBs.

This hasn't been talked about a lot I think it is a real issue that will sink both of these guys sooner or later.  Poor organizational structure.

[Dcat]

4 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

I've said it before I'll say it again.  Just like our last GM the current one is hamstrung by a lousy coach who has no firm direction and thinks he is D genius.

Despite the coach and Gm appearing to be happy and cordial they are on the same level not coach under GM.  If you are the gm and looking at the draft and ask the acoh what kind of defense we are playing and he says 'hybrid' how the hell do you draft?

All three of our LB picks of the last two years are suited to a 3-4 D imo.  We have 3 possible impact dlineman and if you want to play them all you MUST play a 4-3.  The ILB (Lee) we drafted last year is not at all a Deone Buchanan type of player.

Our veteran OC who it was said was going to leave this year no matter what leaves a huge development void for the newly drafted QBs.

This hasn't been talked about a lot I think it is a real issue that will sink both of these guys sooner or later.  Poor organizational structure.

Mny have been screming about Woody's persistent inept organizational structure ever since he silently gave Rex the power to override Tannenbaum.  He's stuck with it ever since. It is crap having both of them report to him.  It doesn't work well at all.  Until that changes, i see the same issues down the road for this franchise.

[slats]

15 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

I agree with you on the Wilkerson issue, it was an awful move if we can assume he ever had a legitimate trade offer for him. The rest of them were part of their attempt to win last year in the sense of making the playoffs, and I am yet to understand from anyone how we would be in any different position this year, given we don't have a QB. Everything else they did had very little impact IMO. At the end of the day, he will either find a QB, or he won't. The rest of the complaints against him are not seeing the forrest through the trees. 

I don't hate Maccagnan. I think Sperm and dbates and co. have legitimate gripes, though. 

Everyone agrees that you need a QB, but not having one doesn't excuse making other dumb moves. The Fitz deal set the whole team back. Not just that he was terrible, but the impression that Mac let a couple players and the media and some misguided fans force his hand that terrible deal. I think that contract, for that player, is part of what led to Bowles losing the locker room. And also why Mangold and Marshall are gone, and I don't suspect Decker is too far behind them. 

[j4jets]

3 hours ago, BCJet said:

Cro is not a failure that I fail to recognize because I actually look at contract numbers.  Yes he was cut one year after signing a "4 year deal" except that 4 year deal was actually a 1 year contract as we cut him with ZERO dead money.  Is that a bad singing?  We took a risk on a player, with no long term ramifications, who had played well for the new HC?  You do realize that in Mac's first year we had an obscene amount of cap space that the team had to use - so instead of bogging us down for multiple seasons with bad contracts, Mac spent short money which have enabled us to now move on from some of the veterans.

Incorrect. On so many different levels. 

3 hours ago, BCJet said:

Skrine got a total of $13 million guaranteed, that is slot corner money and he is not overpaid to do that job.  Again - were you complaining about him in 2015 or just 2016 when he was asked to do more then he is capable of.  Hes not a star, never was paid like a star and is far from a big mistake.

Two years ago, 13 mil guaranteed money was starting CB2 money. 

3 hours ago, BCJet said:

I cant explain why we paid fitz $12 million but it in hindsightit was clearly a mistake, and I fully blame Mac's inexperience in making that mistake.  And no i have no idea why we kept Breno, other then his salary was guaranteed for 2016 and there was no benefit to cutting him.

His salary was not guaranteed for 2016. 

3 hours ago, BCJet said:

What you fail to mention in all of your posts is that we actually have promising young players on this team, that Mac drafted or signed.  Those players, are young and werent capable of overcoming putrid QB play and veteran infighting in the lockerroom but to simply not acknowledge how much improvement Jordan Jenkins and Darron Lee had during the course of the season, or that Robby Anderson and Charone Peake look like viable contributors and both were found after the 6th round.

Yeah I guess I also failed to mention how Devin Smith is a bust and how we lucked into Robby Anderson being a decent WR. Doesn't mean he has an eye for WR talent. For the record, it wouldn't matter even if Robby Anderson was the next Jerry Rice, unless Petty can be the next Kurt Warner. 

3 hours ago, BCJet said:

I dont know why we picked Hackenberg, and ultimately Mac will be judged heavily on that, but is there another QB out there he failed to acquire and should have?  He inherited a roster completely devoid of talent and has started to build it back up.  I am happy to have him in charge of this draft

He inherited $50+ mil of cap space and some high draft picks to fill his roster back up. Lets not act like we were in cap hell to go with that roster.