Nothing on the tiny backer?

[redlichtie]

57 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

You obviously do. I never said anything about not having room to sign anyone there strawman. I just said that some of the “war chest” will have to be used to bring back some of the players that should be. I provided you a list of impending free agents. There is more than a handful that need to be resigned. Plus, they’ll need cap room for a new draft class. But you know all of that. 

So who are you bringing back and for how much?....amazing that you can’t provide any more than a feeble, generic ‘there’s names’ ....it shouldn't Be that difficult 

crack on

[CrazyCarl40]

2 minutes ago, redlichtie said:

So who are you bringing back and for how much?....amazing that you can’t provide any more than a feeble, generic ‘there’s names’ ....it shouldn't Be that difficult 

crack on

That’s not my job “mate”. I was pointing out a simple fact. I’m not sure what’s so hard to understand here. 

[redlichtie]

2 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

That’s not my job “mate”. I was pointing out a simple fact. I’m not sure what’s so hard to understand here. 

It’s not a job, it’s an internet message board,...you are over/thinking it mate....the purpose here is discussion, maybe disagreement but ultimately if you’ve got something to say, a valid point to make then let’s hear it....so:

who do we need to spend big money on this off-season to keep on the roster?...who are our impending, expensive, soon-to-be-free-agents?...

I’m prepared to be persuaded by a well constructed and articulate argument by anyone.you are correct about one thing, it’s not that hard to understand...so...enlighten me

[redlichtie]

4 hours ago, detectivekimble said:

There is, but the Jets also need to re-sign a few guys that other teams will be interested in.  Demario Davis is having a good year on the field AND is a great locker room guy.  ASJ is still getting better and has the physical talent to be one of the best TEs in the league.  Claiborne is a good CB and good CBs are hard to find.

True enough those guys are players we can move forward with but i’m not sure Claiborne can command huge dollars with his injury history, he was a quality player already when we got him but we got him because of that injury history...ASJ too has a history that may have teams thinking twice....ultimately we have to decide the value on these guys and if someone wants to crazily overpay then we move on but generally yes agreed...bottom line though none of those guys should be commanding crazy top-end contracts that drain our entire cap space.

[CrazyCarl40]

4 hours ago, redlichtie said:

It’s not a job, it’s an internet message board,...you are over/thinking it mate....the purpose here is discussion, maybe disagreement but ultimately if you’ve got something to say, a valid point to make then let’s hear it....so:

who do we need to spend big money on this off-season to keep on the roster?...who are our impending, expensive, soon-to-be-free-agents?...

I’m prepared to be persuaded by a well constructed and articulate argument by anyone.you are correct about one thing, it’s not that hard to understand...so...enlighten me

This isn’t hard. I provided you a list after telling you a fact. I’m not playing this how much and who game because our current GM gave a below average guard 8 million. So he’ll probably give Enunwa 10 a year and ASJ 35. 

[CanadaSteve]

11 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

 He already butchered the Winters and Mo deals. 

WHAT?

Most people on here WANTED Mo signed long term, and most people wanted Winters signed long term (granted, there are those like Sperm who said if that is what they wanted, it should have done years previous)

[redlichtie]

7 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

This isn’t hard. I provided you a list after telling you a fact. I’m not playing this how much and who game because our current GM gave a below average guard 8 million. So he’ll probably give Enunwa 10 a year and ASJ 35. 

LMAO you’re not playing because you can’t

enjoy Misery

[CrazyCarl40]

7 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

WHAT?

Most people on here WANTED Mo signed long term, and most people wanted Winters signed long term (granted, there are those like Sperm who said if that is what they wanted, it should have done years previous)

Most people are not very bright. There were many of us on here that said Mo was overpriced and that Winters was not worth that money. Both have proven to be true. Just because a group says something on here, doesn’t mean the GM should do it. 

1 hour ago, redlichtie said:

LMAO you’re not playing because you can’t

enjoy Misery

I have no idea what this statement means, but I’m going to move on from this discussion to more elevated topics. Have a nice day. 

[bla bla bla]

14 hours ago, redlichtie said:

It’s not a job, it’s an internet message board,...you are over/thinking it mate....the purpose here is discussion, maybe disagreement but ultimately if you’ve got something to say, a valid point to make then let’s hear it....so:

who do we need to spend big money on this off-season to keep on the roster?...who are our impending, expensive, soon-to-be-free-agents?...

I’m prepared to be persuaded by a well constructed and articulate argument by anyone.you are correct about one thing, it’s not that hard to understand...so...enlighten me

Since he won't I will:

I'm on a cell phone and don't feel like bouncing between overthecap and here but I believe after cutting Mo, Skrine & Forte we sit somewhere around $89M in cap space so I'll use that as the figure.

ASJ - 3 years $30M - Cap Hit $10M - this makes him one of the top paid TEs in the league. He wants to sign with use since we gambled on him when he was down on his luck. 

Claiborne - 3 years $36M - Cap Hit $12M - nice contract for a guy that has been injured. We pay him but write in a clause about injury that allows us to be off the hook if he runs into serious issues.

Davis - 2 years $8M - Cap Hit $5M - has been a great contributor this season. Could possibly demand more in year 2 but I think this deal could get done.

Enunwa - 1 year $6M - Cap Hit $6M - we give him a prove it deal, Pryor signed for 1 year $7M and that was after a good season and no injury. We may not even need to go that high for Enunwa.

Ealy - 3 years $10M - Cap Hit 3.3M - he's played well for us and I think Leonard and him are a good duo moving forward.

remaining cap: $50M

assuming we save $10M for draft and 2018 in season moves we still have $40M to play with. That is going to be a nice sum considering other teams in theory need to resign their own talent as well. Assuming Ansah is tagged that leaves us with no true Pass Rusher in FA. Maybe we look at the CB market to lock in a guy opposite Claiborne. I would like us to make a strong push for Brees and then draft a QB with our first pick. By signing Brees teams won't necessarily think we go QB in round one so we may be able to avoid being leaped for a QB on the board.

Draft

1) QB

2a) Pass Rusher

2b) Center

3) Pass Rusher

BPA

I like BPA outside a round 1 QB but I think this is the direction I'd like to see us lean given our FA.

[redlichtie]

2 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

Since he won't I will:

I'm on a cell phone and don't feel like bouncing between overthecap and here but I believe after cutting Mo, Skrine & Forte we sit somewhere around $89M in cap space so I'll use that as the figure.

ASJ - 3 years $30M - Cap Hit $10M - this makes him one of the top paid TEs in the league. He wants to sign with use since we gambled on him when he was down on his luck. 

Claiborne - 3 years $36M - Cap Hit $12M - nice contract for a guy that has been injured. We pay him but write in a clause about injury that allows us to be off the hook if he runs into serious issues.

Davis - 2 years $8M - Cap Hit $5M - has been a great contributor this season. Could possibly demand more in year 2 but I think this deal could get done.

Enunwa - 1 year $6M - Cap Hit $6M - we give him a prove it deal, Pryor signed for 1 year $7M and that was after a good season and no injury. We may not even need to go that high for Enunwa.

Ealy - 3 years $10M - Cap Hit 3.3M - he's played well for us and I think Leonard and him are a good duo moving forward.

remaining cap: $50M

assuming we save $10M for draft and 2018 in season moves we still have $40M to play with. That is going to be a nice sum considering other teams in theory need to resign their own talent as well. Assuming Ansah is tagged that leaves us with no true Pass Rusher in FA. Maybe we look at the CB market to lock in a guy opposite Claiborne. I would like us to make a strong push for Brees and then draft a QB with our first pick. By signing Brees teams won't necessarily think we go QB in round one so we may be able to avoid being leaped for a QB on the board.

Draft

1) QB

2a) Pass Rusher

2b) Center

3) Pass Rusher

BPA

I like BPA outside a round 1 QB but I think this is the direction I'd like to see us lean given our FA.

Excellent post, thanks for taking the time 

hard to argue with any of that and it just illustrates that we are in plenty good cap shape that we should, if we choose to, be able to resign our key FA’s and still have money to spend. That’s a welcome change from years gone by. I’m not even for advocating a massive splurge in FA either, one or maybe two key additions in important areas(CB maybe C) but it sure is nice to have that flexibility.

I would just add that where ASJ, Mo Claiborne and to a lesser extent DD are concerned we pretty much picked them off the scrap heap so each comes with a buyer-beware tag that we and any other future suitor will need to bear in mind before committing big dollars to. That might playa factor in the overall cost of resigning each but you kind of alluded to that anyway. If we can only re-sign 2 of the 3 then presents an interesting problem, i’d Probably go ASJ & Davis but that’s an argument that hopefully doesn’t have to happen. There’s a reason they all came available in the first place

 I like Enunwa but if anything our WR core hasn’t skipped a beat without him and not being able to consolidate the promise he showed in 2016 means I don’t see him having much leverage. Tough break for him, maybe good for us....either way your ‘prove-it’ deal is probably about right. I have to be honest I thought he was under contract through the end of 2018. Some would probably argue that Kearse has proved himself the key long-term veteran, solid pick up there.

The WR outlook is a million miles ahead of where we were not that long ago when we were banking on the Chaz Schilens and Clyde Gates of the world.

agree that Ealy is the blueprint for the type of player that complements Leonard Williams....again he was a scrapheap- pick-up and while he’s played well he likely won’t put up the kind of sack numbers that command premium dollars. I’m going to guess your estimated contract numbers are about right. I like him a lot.

one last thing i’d Add that often gets lost in these discussions is that a good Pro-personnel department finds good contributions from players in the bargain basement, reclamation projects like Ealy, ASJ, Claiborne have shown that it’s not just about the draft and high priced free agents. I think we’ve done a decent job there and the coaches take a lot of credit for that too. If we can find those guys in the first place then I see no reason why there can’t be one or two more on the horizon. Reshard Robinson is the next man up, will be interesting to see how that goes.

 

[jack48]

On 11/3/2017 at 8:41 AM, Smashmouth said:

I was critical of Lee but as of late this kid has really stepped it up in a big way hes making a lot of plays and causing a lot of disruption in the back field his coverage is tight as well. I even saw him shed a guard last night and make a play in the back field. Hes playing much faster and its probably due to him becoming more comfortable in the scheme and buying into it. 

I think he has been really on the ball the last two games, especially

[Jetsfan80]

On 11/3/2017 at 6:15 PM, redlichtie said:

Lee was drafted right where he was generally predicted to go, Adams was universally rated a top 3 pick(some even had him above Myles Garrett as best player in the draft)...and we got him at 6!....result..

We desperately needed to add speed to our defense and LBer unit(Lee) and our safeties might have been the worst in the league so getting the top rated safety to come out over the last few years(Adams) was a solid move at the very least,  meanwhile Marcus Maye was touted as a late first rounder going anywhere as high as 18-20...we got him in the 2nd....what’s not to like?

for sure we desperately need an edge rusher but who exactly were you drafting at 6 this year or 20 last year? What were you giving up to trade into Number 1 overall to get a difference maker like Garrett?

We know Mac was prepared to go up and get Tunsil last year when he started to drop so we know he’s prepared to be aggressive for premium players at premium positions but ultimately how much are people prepared to give up for these moves? It’s like people think we can just move up without having to sacrifice those valuable 2nd or 3rd round picks. The way the board has fallen those key position players haven’t matched the value where we’ve picked. It’s easy to sit in hindsight and say we should’ve picked this player or that player but at the time the costs involved just didn’t merit pulling the trigger and i’m sure we’d all then be whining about trading away valuable draft picks, our roster is so devoid of talent apparently that we need all the help we can get.

Historically we’ve had GM’s that have chased players at positions of need while leaving the ‘best available’ talent on the board and it got us largely nowhere while we all screamed at the GM for passing over the Warren Sapp’s of this world. This way we are slowly adding talent, not every pick will work out but I can’t kill Mac for any of the picks he’s made other than with the wonderful benefit of hindsight.

 

I think we've used plenty of high picks on non-premium positions on defense by now.  Our defense-minded HC shouldn't have needed a high pick on a hybrid linebacker in order for our defense to "get fast".  You can find those players in later rounds.

Who cares where people had Adams ranked?  He made no sense for our team.  Again, at some point, you have to take a chance on premium positions.  And taking a 5th round QB prospect like Hackenberg in the 2nd round does not qualify.  That wasn't "taking a chance", that was trying to do something that no one has ever done before:  Draft a QB who was inaccurate in college and having him be a success in the pros.

The fact that you "can't kill" Macc for the picks isn't a good review.  It means he's gone with safe, bland picks that'll probably work out, but "kicks the can" down the road.  And after 3 years under his tenure, we have zero elite players on the roster.  Zero.  

Where is this team's future?  A tiny linebacker and a couple of safeties?  In 2 years, who will the QB be?  The LT?  The edge rusher?  The # 1 WR?  

[#27TheDominator]

On 11/4/2017 at 11:16 AM, redlichtie said:

It’s not that we aren’t finding them, those plus athletes you talk about don’t tend to last much beyond the top 5 picks in the draft. Then you get into the TimWilliams’ of the world who come with serious baggage/deficiencies. I’m as annoyed as anyone that we have never properly addressed the edge rush position going all the way back to John Abraham(that was the year 2000 btw!!)that way precedes Maccagnan and Bowles. We tried to with Gholston who was the dictionary definition of a plus athlete and we all know how that went.

Jenkins is a capable, above average disciplined player with some upside, he’ll be even more effective when surrounded by better talent and in particular a speed rusher off the other edge should elevate not only Jenkins play but the rest of the D. You can’t have a unit of Erik McMillan style riverboat gamblers making splash plays everywhere but freelancing out of basic assignments and gap responsibilities, you need the JJ’s of this world too, the final piece in our puzzle is indeed adding a dynamic speed rusher to get to QB’s quicker and while that isn’t Jordan Jenkins his role is vital in building a strong defensive unit that we can move forward with.

This is just flat out false. I probably appreciate Jordan Jenkins as much as anybody on this board, he is just an easier to find piece.  That is why he was sitting where he was.  Ebukam went in the 4th.  Rivers and Basham went in the 3rd.  Jordan Willis was somebody I was very interested in.  He went 3 slots after our 3rd, but the Jets traded down and picked Stewart.   in 2016, Tapper went in the 4th, Weatherly went in the 7th, etc.  All these guys tested considerably better than Donahue who is an older prospect from a small school who was going to have a transition much more difficult to project.

Even the higher level guys weren't going "top 5":  Floyd went 9, Reddick 13 and TJ Watt 30.

Most of these guys will take development and I am not saying they would all have been good picks for the Jets.  My point is, it is much easier to find a plug and play contain guy than a speed rusher and it is, quite literally, impossible to find a speed rusher when you draft guys with no speed.  

[#27TheDominator]

I love that post about spending our money!

We will have $40M to sign Brees?  Who is replacing Wilkerson, Skrine and Forte?  I know everybody here thinks those guys suck, but they all start and we literally do not have the bodies to replace them.  Your LT is in a tenuous spot and I assume we are counting on Shell at RT?  You know he didn't play this week?  He didn't play the other big rushing week against Jacksonville either.  Qvale is another FA.  

Personally, this off-season I am looking for some reliable upgrades at T and CB.  Guys that can last more than a season or two. I wouldn't mind a reliable vet WR or a higher draft pick.  If they cut Forte loose (I would) I think they need a fairly reliable choice at RB, either in the draft of FA.  Powell and McGuire seem good, but I'm not sold on going into a season with only those two.  I suppose we should know by the end of the year. 

We still need a C.  Nobody is signing Johnson back, but he has played 100% of the snaps at C and that is another $3M.  I assume the upgrade will cost more.  I would look for a Douzable level DE.  Not expensive, but a decent player.  Same at NT.  The Pennel/McLendon duo has been okay, but Pennel is a FA and McLendon signed through 2018 at $3M.  I think they will probably want to keep both.  I know Deon Simon is on the practice squad, is he still part of this good, young talent base?

Personally, I am going all in at QB.  I'm usually not that guy, but we have waited too long.  You don't get 5 years to put a team together and STILL need a QB.  I kick the tires on all the solid FAs that become available Smith, Cousins, Garoppolo if he doesn't sign, if Brees or Bradford become available.  I would look into all the trade possibilities - McCarron on the RFA,  Glennon, Bridgewater.  I'm not saying these guys are all good targets, but there will be four or five moved and some could help us.  THEN I would still be looking to get my top QB target in the draft. 

[redlichtie]

5 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I think we've used plenty of high picks on non-premium positions on defense by now.  Our defense-minded HC shouldn't have needed a high pick on a hybrid linebacker in order for our defense to "get fast".  You can find those players in later rounds.

Who cares where people had Adams ranked?  He made no sense for our team.  Again, at some point, you have to take a chance on premium positions.  And taking a 5th round QB prospect like Hackenberg in the 2nd round does not qualify.  That wasn't "taking a chance", that was trying to do something that no one has ever done before:  Draft a QB who was inaccurate in college and having him be a success in the pros.

The fact that you "can't kill" Macc for the picks isn't a good review.  It means he's gone with safe, bland picks that'll probably work out, but "kicks the can" down the road.  And after 3 years under his tenure, we have zero elite players on the roster.  Zero.  

Where is this team's future?  A tiny linebacker and a couple of safeties?  In 2 years, who will the QB be?  The LT?  The edge rusher?  The # 1 WR?  

What?...getting arguably the best player in the draft at a position of need made no sense?....good god man what are you on?

needless to say I disagree with pretty much everything you say...you can ‘get fast’ players later in the draft is just too mind bendingly simplistic for words. If it were just about speed we’d be scouring the Jamaican Olympic team trials and just slotting guys like Asafa Powell in. It;s about adding players with the skill-set AND speed, and Darron Lee was an outstanding playmaker in only 2 years at Ohio State. The knock was obviously that a player his size can’t be getting battered all day by 300lb linemen so you need to move him around, but also the fact he only played two seasons at OSU means he’s still raw but with a very high ceiling. It’s still early days but his upside is significant.

Mac is ‘safe’ and goes with ‘bland’ picks?....but he drafted Hackenberg, I can’t think of a bigger gamble. The fact that gamble looks like a major failure is another argument, but to say he’s risk averse is, in your own words ‘not a good review’

Where is this team’s future?...to be honest I doubt there’s anything I or anyone could say to persuade you that we aren’t anything other than  an almighty clusterfvck and that there is no future...we are doomed to perpetual failure, doubtful we’ll ever win another game not just this year but any other year. If all you see is a tiny linebacker and a couple of safeties then I guess it’s going to be a perpetual ordeal supporting this team going forward...no joy....no hope...nothing.

I could spend a while trying to compose a detailed response as to why i don’t agree that it’s all bad(I sure don’t Think it’s all rosy either but I can see some light...not a lot, but enough to have some hope)but it won’t make a blind bit of difference will it? Your mind is made up right?so we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

good luck for the rest of the season

[redlichtie]

4 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

This is just flat out false. I probably appreciate Jordan Jenkins as much as anybody on this board, he is just an easier to find piece.  That is why he was sitting where he was.  Ebukam went in the 4th.  Rivers and Basham went in the 3rd.  Jordan Willis was somebody I was very interested in.  He went 3 slots after our 3rd, but the Jets traded down and picked Stewart.   in 2016, Tapper went in the 4th, Weatherly went in the 7th, etc.  All these guys tested considerably better than Donahue who is an older prospect from a small school who was going to have a transition much more difficult to project.

Even the higher level guys weren't going "top 5":  Floyd went 9, Reddick 13 and TJ Watt 30.

Most of these guys will take development and I am not saying they would all have been good picks for the Jets.  My point is, it is much easier to find a plug and play contain guy than a speed rusher and it is, quite literally, impossible to find a speed rusher when you draft guys with no speed.  

Not sure I get which part of my post you are taking issue with and what exactly is false. There’s no argument from me that getting those elite speed rushers is way harder than the plug and play contain guys...couldn’t agree more

it drives me nuts that we haven’t addressed that position properly in nearly 20 years. It’s the primary reason Rex’s defences were never quite the elite, championship winning unit that they could've, maybe should’ve been. It’s still the most frustrating aspect of our defence and we’ll lose more infuriating games because of it but i’m not sure when we were supposed to have acquired a Von Miller or a Khalil Mack.

Which elite speed rusher did we miss on? What are you giving up in draft picks to trade up to get one?

[MDL_JET]

6 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I think we've used plenty of high picks on non-premium positions on defense by now.  Our defense-minded HC shouldn't have needed a high pick on a hybrid linebacker in order for our defense to "get fast".  You can find those players in later rounds.

Who cares where people had Adams ranked?  He made no sense for our team.  Again, at some point, you have to take a chance on premium positions.  And taking a 5th round QB prospect like Hackenberg in the 2nd round does not qualify.  That wasn't "taking a chance", that was trying to do something that no one has ever done before:  Draft a QB who was inaccurate in college and having him be a success in the pros.

The fact that you "can't kill" Macc for the picks isn't a good review.  It means he's gone with safe, bland picks that'll probably work out, but "kicks the can" down the road.  And after 3 years under his tenure, we have zero elite players on the roster.  Zero.  

Where is this team's future?  A tiny linebacker and a couple of safeties?  In 2 years, who will the QB be?  The LT?  The edge rusher?  The # 1 WR?  

Not sure why everyone is listing a #1 wr and rb as a top priority all of a sudden. Outside of finding a long term QB, number one focus should be building a better OL right now. 

[#27TheDominator]

13 minutes ago, redlichtie said:

Not sure I get which part of my post you are taking issue with and what exactly is false. There’s no argument from me that getting those elite speed rushers is way harder than the plug and play contain guys...couldn’t agree more

it drives me nuts that we haven’t addressed that position properly in nearly 20 years. It’s the primary reason Rex’s defences were never quite the elite, championship winning unit that they could've, maybe should’ve been. It’s still the most frustrating aspect of our defence and we’ll lose more infuriating games because of it but i’m not sure when we were supposed to have acquired a Von Miller or a Khalil Mack.

Which elite speed rusher did we miss on? What are you giving up in draft picks to trade up to get one?

 

On 11/4/2017 at 11:16 AM, redlichtie said:

It’s not that we aren’t finding them, those plus athletes you talk about don’t tend to last much beyond the top 5 picks in the draft. Then you get into the TimWilliams’ of the world who come with serious baggage/deficiencies. 

You're not sure which part of your post I was referring to?  The first part.  I quoted it again here.  That sh*t is false. Every one of those guys is a serious plus athlete.  If you want to celebrate a bunch of low floor draft picks, go ahead, but that isn't how you win.  We don't have to trade up.  We have to try - Maccagnan has not.  His choices for OLB have been Mauldin (a slug), Jenkins (slow) and Dylan Donahue, a 25 year old rookie with T-Rex arms who also isn't particularly fast.  There are a sh*t load of guys I would have taken the risk on, starting with Willis.  He could have picked Beasley instead of a low floor prospect at a non-impact position where we were already stacked.  Hell, he could have taken Bud Dupree there too. 

For the record, Rex D in 2009 was probably as good as any D since the 2000 Ravens.  They didn't win cause they sucked on O and Rex was not able to sustain it.  First in yardage and first in scoring is not a D lacking a pass rusher. Also, Tim Williams had baggage, but he is not a plus athlete.  In fact, he SPARQ had him as 31st EDGE this year.  Dylan Donahue was 32nd.  They are well below average athletes for the position - while Willis, Ebukam, Watt, Reddick and Bowser were all 90+ percentile athletes.  

[Paradis]

@#27TheDominator is dropping truth bombs on y'all 

I think the point some of you are dancing around, or can't seem to come eye to eye on -- is the use of our picks -- or decisions surrounding what players and positions are worth said investment... And you know what, there's arguments that hold true for all different POVs

The glue that makes it all work, not matter the pick/position -- is a plan ...good GMs have a plan. They know what they need vs what they want. They know what positions they're good at evaluating, and which they're not. They structure their picks, signings and scouting to compensate and lean on those traits/needs -- ALL in order to execute their plan. 

Got to have a fcking plan.

This is why i'm at DEF-CON 3 with Macc. There's no plan. No sense of controlled direction. He's just winging it, year in and year out.

[Jetsfan80]

23 minutes ago, MDL_JET said:

Not sure why everyone is listing a #1 wr and rb as a top priority all of a sudden. Outside of finding a long term QB, number one focus should be building a better OL right now. 

The Idzik draft (where we missed out on every talented WR prospect imaginable) soured me on the idea that you don't need a # 1 WR.  When the rest of the league is flooded with them, yeah, you can't rock with Robby Anderson as your best receiver.  

I didn't list RB.

You're right that I should have emphasized OL more.  But if you take OT's, you can kick them inside to Guard a lot of the time.  And we might have our RT in Shell.  Might.  But who will the LT will be?  No one has a clue, and that's a big problem.  

[redlichtie]

9 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

 

You're not sure which part of your post I was referring to?  The first part.  I quoted it again here.  That sh*t is false. Every one of those guys is a serious plus athlete.  If you want to celebrate a bunch of low floor draft picks, go ahead, but that isn't how you win.  We don't have to trade up.  We have to try - Maccagnan has not.  His choices for OLB have been Mauldin (a slug), Jenkins (slow) and Dylan Donahue, a 25 year old rookie with T-Rex arms who also isn't particularly fast.  There are a sh*t load of guys I would have taken the risk on, starting with Willis.  He could have picked Beasley instead of a low floor prospect at a non-impact position where we were already stacked.  Hell, he could have taken Bud Dupree there too. 

For the record, Rex D in 2009 was probably as good as any D since the 2000 Ravens.  They didn't win cause they sucked on O and Rex was not able to sustain it.  First in yardage and first in scoring is not a D lacking a pass rusher. Also, Tim Williams had baggage, but he is not a plus athlete.  In fact, he SPARQ had him as 31st EDGE this year.  Dylan Donahue was 32nd.  They are well below average athletes for the position - while Willis, Ebukam, Watt, Reddick and Bowser were all 90+ percentile athletes.  

Nope, still none the wiser...everyone of which guys is a plus athlete|?...who are you talking about?

And what is this offence and downright bogus nonsense  thati want to ‘celebrate a bunch of low floor draft picks’?...where the **** are you getting that from? 

you wanted Beasley instead of Leonard Williams? That position that was so stacked with a brain-dead Doper who was another trip with the 14 year old nephew in his Bugatti away from a year suspension and the 86M man everyone wants cut. And you are the visionary that thought Bud Dupree was worth the 6th overall pick...lol,

‘anyone that doesn’t think Rex lacked a pass rusher back in 2009 & 2010 needs to go back and watch both AFC championship games

hindsight makes you a genius...congrats

[Jetsfan80]

@redlichtie you're very clearly missing the big picture.  You're sitting there picking away at trees and missing the forest.  No one thinks that, on their own merits, picks like Leonard Williams or Jamal Adams were really bad selections.  But if all Macc is good at is taking guys who are high floor players at non-premium positions, he isn't a good GM.

You have to eventually take shots at premium positions with lower floors but higher ceilings.  If you don't, you're just spinning your wheels.  You can't build a consistent winner on a foundation of safeties, hyrbid linebackers, and DT's.  You need QB's and edge rushers, and any time Macc has tried to address those 2 key areas, he's failed miserably.  He ignores important metrics like SPARQ ratings and tries to play "kick the can" at QB.  In other words....he's gutless.  And I don't want a gutless GM running the show.  

[kdels62]

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The Idzik draft (where we missed out on every talented WR prospect imaginable) soured me on the idea that you don't need a # 1 WR.  When the rest of the league is flooded with them, yeah, you can't rock with Robby Anderson as your best receiver.  

I didn't list RB.

You're right that I should have emphasized OL more.  But if you take OT's, you can kick them inside to Guard a lot of the time.  And we might have our RT in Shell.  Might.  But who will the LT will be?  No one has a clue, and that's a big problem.  

Beachum has been okay and we can role with him next year, but center has to be addressed. Beachum was our highest rated o-linemen going into yesterday and though he can be upgraded he can also hold down the fort for 2 years. 

I completely disagree with the wide receivers. All those great receivers and what exactly have they won for their teams? WR1 are great assets but hardly cornerstones and if there is one position that Macc seems to understand its WR. He seems to value the position appropriately and knows what makes a wide receiver reliable.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, kdels62 said:

Beachum has been okay and we can role with him next year, but center has to be addressed. Beachum was our highest rated o-linemen going into yesterday and though he can be upgraded he can also hold down the fort for 2 years. 

I completely disagree with the wide receivers. All those great receivers and what exactly have they won for their teams? WR1 are great assets but hardly cornerstones and if there is one position that Macc seems to understand its WR. He seems to value the position appropriately and knows what makes a wide receiver reliable.

Julio Jones got to a Super Bowl last year.  The Broncos had Demaryius Thomas and Manny Sanders.  The Patriots won the Super Bowl but saw fit to go out and get Brandin Cooks.  

I'm not saying you need an ELITE WR1.  But you need someone who the defense needs to account for.  And we don't have it on the current roster.  We have some nice receivers, but no WR1.  Our best weapon is Seferian-Jenkins.  

[MDL_JET]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

@redlichtie you're very clearly missing the big picture.  You're sitting there picking away at trees and missing the forest.  No one thinks that, on their own merits, picks like Leonard Williams or Jamal Adams were really bad selections.  But if all Macc is good at is taking guys who are high floor players at non-premium positions, he isn't a good GM.

You have to eventually take shots at premium positions with lower floors but higher ceilings.  If you don't, you're just spinning your wheels.  You can't build a consistent winner on a foundation of safeties, hyrbid linebackers, and DT's.  You need QB's and edge rushers, and any time Macc has tried to address those 2 key areas, he's failed miserably.  He ignores important metrics like SPARQ ratings and tries to play "kick the can" at QB.  In other words....he's gutless.  And I don't want a gutless GM running the show.  

But isn't it better to build a foundation with safe high floor players, regardless the position? Just find good players that you can count on. That way you have those guys in place, you know they'll be good for a while, and once you've done that you can take a shot at those premium positions with low floors? 

If you do it the other way around, miss on those low floor guys, you're left with nothing and he's probably getting fired for having nothing to build on. 

[#27TheDominator]

15 minutes ago, redlichtie said:

Nope, still none the wiser...everyone of which guys is a plus athlete|?...who are you talking about?

And what is this offence and downright bogus nonsense  thati want to ‘celebrate a bunch of low floor draft picks’?...where the **** are you getting that from? 

you wanted Beasley instead of Leonard Williams? That position that was so stacked with a brain-dead Doper who was another trip with the 14 year old nephew in his Bugatti away from a year suspension and the 86M man everyone wants cut. And you are the visionary that thought Bud Dupree was worth the 6th overall pick...lol,

‘anyone that doesn’t think Rex lacked a pass rusher back in 2009 & 2010 needs to go back and watch both AFC championship games

hindsight makes you a genius...congrats

Which guys are plus athletes?  I listed about 15. They all went after the 5th pick in the draft.  You want to give Maccagnan a pass because he would have had to trade up for Garrett or Solomon Thomas?  If you can't get past that and want to complain about a slug like Tim Williams having baggage, I'm done.  Any moron can hit on "can't miss" low floor guys.  Hitting on some risks is how you differentiate yourself.  You want to act like Maccagnan is a riverboat gambler because he picked a 2nd rounder that does not rate dressing for games?  He picked Hackenberg in the 2nd because the Jets needed a QB.  That is the truly scary thing.  A need pick that doesn't need a uniform.

LOL, at the hindsight comment.  It isn't hindsight.  It's foresight.  He drafts scared.  You can't get speed drafting slow players.

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, MDL_JET said:

But isn't it better to build a foundation with safe high floor players, regardless the position? Just find good players that you can count on. That way you have those guys in place, you know they'll be good for a while, and once you've done that you can take a shot at those premium positions with low floors? 

If you do it the other way around, miss on those low floor guys, you're left with nothing and he's probably getting fired for having nothing to build on. 

 

You can do both simultaneously.  In fact, you NEED to be doing that.  And with early 1st rounders, you can often get high ceiling players who also have fairly high floors too. 

But Macc is a one-trick pony, and not really even that good at that.  After all, 3 years in and we have zero elite players on the roster.  Zero.  

[kdels62]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Julio Jones got to a Super Bowl last year.  The Broncos had Demaryius Thomas and Manny Sanders.  The Patriots won the Super Bowl but saw fit to go out and get Brandin Cooks.  

I'm not saying you need an ELITE WR1.  But you need someone who the defense needs to account for.  And we don't have it on the current roster.  We have some nice receivers, but no WR1.  Our best weapon is Seferian-Jenkins.  

Julio Jones is the exception. For as good as Thomas is, the year that they lost the Super Bowl he played with Manning still doing what Manning does and he was wiped out of the Super Bowl. Sanders was a third rounder who developed into the player he is. And yes WRs are good pieces to add once you have an o-line and are especially great for aging QBs but they sit behind QB, o-line, coordinator and o-line coach in terms of importance to a team’s success. Right now, Robbie Anderson is a second year guy that might be the fastest player in the league and has 4 TDs and only 1 drop with a QB that can’t utilize his greatest asset. Anderson would be sitting on a mountain of hype on the Packers, Steelers, Seahawks, Panthers.  

[#27TheDominator]

3 minutes ago, MDL_JET said:

But isn't it better to build a foundation with safe high floor players, regardless the position? Just find good players that you can count on. That way you have those guys in place, you know they'll be good for a while, and once you've done that you can take a shot at those premium positions with low floors? 

If you do it the other way around, miss on those low floor guys, you're left with nothing and he's probably getting fired for having nothing to build on. 

Contracts are 4 years. While you fill your team with low floor players, you still need to find the most difficult spots - QB, LT, Edge Rusher, CB, which remain open.  It is cheaper/easier to fill the roster out with adequate players while you have the premium positions under their 1st deals than to break the bank on Cousins or try to get lucky on a Cameron Wake coming back from Canada, or having Claiborne stay healthy a full year.

[ASH1962]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 8:32 AM, KRL said:

That won't happen, the critics always hide when there's success by a player they've trolled

I never trolled Lee, still not sure he will amount to much but he has improved over the past few weeks. I believe it is because the HC has finally allowed him to be turned loose to rush the passer. He is fast and since he is smallish, that would be the best role for him on any defense probably.

[dbatesman]

18 minutes ago, MDL_JET said:

But isn't it better to build a foundation with safe high floor players, regardless the position? Just find good players that you can count on. That way you have those guys in place, you know they'll be good for a while, and once you've done that you can take a shot at those premium positions with low floors? 

No. If you want to contend consistently, you need a franchise QB and elite athletes at pass-catcher, corner, and/or edge rusher. Building a foundation with safe high-floor players is nothing but spinning your wheels. Exhibit A: under Maccagnan we're 19-22 with 0 playoff appearances.

[UnitedWhofans]

3 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

No. If you want to contend consistently, you need a franchise QB and elite athletes at pass-catcher, corner, and/or edge rusher. Building a foundation with safe high-floor players is nothing but spinning your wheels. Exhibit A: under Maccagnan we're 19-22 with 0 playoff appearances.

I agree. At some point you need a franchise QB and elite players. But I like having the base first. Otherwise, if your QB gets hurt, your season is over. (Green Bay and Indy)

[MDL_JET]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You can do both simultaneously.  In fact, you NEED to be doing that.  And with early 1st rounders, you can often get high ceiling players who also have fairly high floors too. 

But Macc is a one-trick pony, and not really even that good at that.  After all, 3 years in and we have zero elite players on the roster.  Zero.  

You make it sound like theres a bunch of elite players already from the past 3 drafts from the first round. 

2015. Who? Marcus Peters. Are we calling Beasly elite now? Gurley? Aside from those 2 other maybes. I don't think anyone else is being called elite just yet. 

2016. The top 5 I would say are. Outside of that, who are we calling elite? 

2017. A lot of guys have played well but I think we need to wait for consistency to call any of them 'elite'. 

 

1 minute ago, dbatesman said:

No. If you want to contend consistently, you need a franchise QB and elite athletes at pass-catcher, corner, and/or edge rusher. Building a foundation with safe high-floor players is nothing but spinning your wheels. Exhibit A: under Maccagnan we're 19-22 with 0 playoff appearances.

Wait, so why can't we still get those? The door has closed? 

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, MDL_JET said:

Wait, so why can't we still get those? The door has closed? 

Drafting the way Macc does 3 years in, the door was always closed.  Unless he dramatically changes his approach and philosophy, we'll continue to get more of the same:  Nice players who will never be great.  

[dbatesman]

9 minutes ago, MDL_JET said:

Wait, so why can't we still get those? The door has closed? 

Because this front office has shown no interest in or aptitude for drafting that kind of player.