Q. Williams vs Allen: quote from SNY article

[BornJetsFan1983]

On 5/3/2019 at 11:38 AM, Beerfish said:

That is our big hope, but then we have just drafted an edge rusher probably suited to a 3-4 olb.

That is the big issue with mac, he has no viable plan.

Or plan in general. The BPA is stupid. Bad teams do it. Hopefully this year it will stop.

Allen was no sure thing but we should have taken line or WR or Pass rusher

[BornJetsFan1983]

4 hours ago, Jetscode1 said:

Macc really tried to play safe and drafted whoever was on Kiper's or McShay (substitute your favorite mock draft person).  Especially in round 1.  Dude had zero idea how to properly construct a roster.  DL ad nausea.  I'm hoping JD favors big ugly OL and some fukking skill players.  The amount of talented WR who have come out in recent years and we have not drafted any of them.  Pure garbage GM.

Supposedly he does prefer line because of this back round but who the hell knows. I do know he got that kid out of retirement to play for us, so no doubt he is motivated.

Really all Joe D has to do is the most basic of plans and he will receive much accolades and pats on the back. Really even just plausable is going to go over really well.

 

[Anthony Jet]

4 hours ago, BurnleyJet said:

I think that Williams contribution was a rotational player. in the D-line. He had very little impact and wasn’t a starter. Not at all what I’d expect from the “best player in the Draft”.

Meanwhile:-

Josh Allen, the pick we should  have had 44 tackles, 10.5 Sacks, 2 FF, we needed an Edge, we drafted a run stuffing D.T.

Bosa, moot but still 47 tackles 9 Sacks 1 Int. young stud D.E.

Ed Oliver finished with 43 tackles, 5 sacks and is noticeably improving game by game. He was in our backfield all day Week 17.

Quinnen Williams 28 tackles 2.5 sacks. Clearly the runt of the litter, and over drafted. Please file under Leonard Williams, Sheldon Richardson, Quentin Coples, Mo Wilkerson.

Are we learning yet..

This one hurt. Thanks 

[Ohhthepain]

Mike Macagnan is the absolute worst, and set us back years. Hated this pick when it happened and still hate it now. 

[BurnleyJet]

1 hour ago, Anthony Jet said:

This one hurt. Thanks 

You’re welcome, some times a reality  check helps focus the mind!

[Sperm Edwards]

There’s no way on earth Maccagnan was planning on moving Leo at the time of nor before he made the QW pick. If you’re going to credit him with this much planning ahead, then you’d have to credit him with trying to get something in return for Leo, whose value was far higher than a potential 3rd round comp pick in 2021 (which is all he’d get for letting Leo go after the 2019 season).

Nope. 3 seconds before he handed in his card for QW, Leo was widely considered to be one of Macc’s 3 best picks (and amusingly enough, 6 months earlier people were singing Macc's praises of finally getting a victory lap for “top 20 defender according to PFF” Darron Lee, who couldn’t garner a mid-round pick in any pre-draft or post-draft trade). Anyway there’s no reasonable argument that a GM on thin ice was planning on letting one of his 3 biggest draft day success narratives simply walk in free agency.

The Macc pattern of planning was for Leo to have a breakout season in his contract year (think 10-12 sacks, with 4+ of them coming in garbage time); then somewhere between mid-December and mid-February extend him at $18-20MM per year OR franchise tag him in February and then offer Leo that same bloated contract sometime over the next 5 months. THAT would at least have some basis in reality, as it fits his prior pattern of behavior perfectly. 

Paint a picture of having a high opinion of his planning foresight or a low one, not both at the same time regarding the same player. The idea that he was carefully planning on drafting Leo’s replacement way in advance, but then decline to trade Leo in preseason when he had greater trade value - before his career-worst season - makes the least sense of any/all explanations.

Maccagnan was an imbecile. There’s your explanation. 

[Dunnie]

Q should be in the gym every day starting today.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[BurnleyJet]

6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

There’s no way on earth Maccagnan was planning on moving Leo at the time of nor before he made the QW pick. If you’re going to credit him with this much planning ahead, then you’d have to credit him with trying to get something in return for Leo, whose value was far higher than a potential 3rd round comp pick in 2020 (which is all he’d get for letting Leo go).

Nope. 3 seconds before he handed in his card for QW, Leo was widely considered to be one of Macc’s 3 best picks (and amusingly enough, 6 months earlier people were singing the praises of finally getting a victory lap for “top 20 defender according to PFF” Darron Lee, who couldn’t garner a mid-round pick in any pre-draft or post-draft trade). Anyway there’s no reasonable argument that a GM on thin ice was planning on letting one of his 3 biggest draft day success narratives simply walk in free agency.

The Macc pattern of planning was for Leo to have a breakout season in his contract year (think 10-12 sacks, with 4+ of them coming in garbage time); then somewhere between mid-December and mid-February extend him at $18-20MM per year OR franchise tag him in February and then offer Leo that same bloated contract sometime over the next 5 months. THAT would at least have some basis in reality, as it fits his prior pattern of behavior perfectly. 

Paint a picture of having a high opinion of his planning foresight or a low one, not both at the same time regarding the same player. The idea that he was carefully planning on drafting Leo’s replacement way in advance, but then decline to trade Leo in preseason when he had greater trade value - before his career-worst season - makes the least sense of any/all explanations.

Maccagnan was an imbecile. There’s your explanation. 

Your preaching to the converted. I’d also say with Shepard, Anderson, Fatukasi, McLendon, on the Roster.

 I’d move Q Williams in a flash, if this “mystery” team comes back with an offer that’s even a late 1st rounder.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, BurnleyJet said:

Your preaching to the converted. I’d also say with Shepard, Anderson, Fatukasi, McLendon, on the Roster.

 I’d move Q Williams in a flash, if this “mystery” team comes back with an offer that’s even a late 1st rounder.

So would I, but hey I admit freely I never watched him in college, but he didn’t look like a special talent as a rookie. Also to me the most important thing is finding out what Darnold can be instead of finding new excuses why he wasn’t a top 10 QB again.

Here’s what I’m holding out hope for with regard to QW, if the prior trade deadline offer was true: he’s got real talent and specifically Gregg Williams didn’t want him traded because he sees it. Yes the same guy who benched him in favor of players with less than half QW’s on-paper talent. The hope is QW first needs to bulk up a little, and second was just lazy and the benching is also partly GW sending a message to QW - as well as to the rest of the team - that you won’t be able to coast on your draft slot or big FA contract here. 

Granted I’m reaching, but that’s my hope. Either that or I hope they move him and with the main pick from that “haul” we take any of: (1) an outstanding LT to anchor the OL for the next 10 years; (2) a rock-solid guard; (3) a non-reach, playmaking WR who’s more than 6’2” tall and 200 lbs so I can stop hearing about how this or that guy on our roster isn’t a true #1, as though that’s necessary for making a great QB great. 

[BurnleyJet]

5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

So would I, but hey I admit freely I never watched him in college, but he didn’t look like a special talent as a rookie. Also to me the most important thing is finding out what Darnold can be instead of finding new excuses why he wasn’t a top 10 QB again.

Here’s what I’m holding out hope for with regard to QW, if the prior trade deadline offer was true: he’s got real talent and specifically Gregg Williams didn’t want him traded because he sees it. Yes the same guy who benched him in favor of players with less than half QW’s on-paper talent. The hope is QW first needs to bulk up a little, and second was just lazy and the benching is also partly GW sending a message to QW - as well as to the rest of the team - that you won’t be able to coast on your draft slot or big FA contract here. 

Granted I’m reaching, but that’s my hope. Either that or I hope they move him and with the main pick from that “haul” we take any of: (1) an outstanding LT to anchor the OL for the next 10 years; (2) a rock-solid guard; (3) a non-reach, playmaking WR who’s more than 6’2” tall and 200 lbs so I can stop hearing about how this or that guy on our roster isn’t a true #1, as though that’s necessary for making a great QB great. 

Two firsts would be great, and even slide down the order for more capital too.

Id like to go all out in F.A to sign a young edge rusher like Yannick Ngakoue. Then spend Draft capital on the Offence.

 

[genot]

11 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Gregg Williams started a 6th rounder and a rookie udfa over Quinnen so I don't think he cares.

I see you got some laughs and upvotes for that. He started thirteen games.

[Bugg]

13 hours ago, Paradis said:

I've seen people throw all kinds of things at the wall re: QW to see what sticks... but no one's been crazy enough to suggest he was selected purely to replace Leo.

that's the mind of a madman

That madman was in fact Mike Maccagnan. 

[genot]

12 hours ago, Paradis said:

Your heart's in the right place, but you're dead wrong on this one. No team plays THAT kind of long game with DT when they already have 4 (and you're ignoring Henry Anderson who we just paid before drafting QW...)

This was simply the case of a GM with no balls and no brains. 

Not under any circumstance are you or others going to give any props to a GM , when you and others have [what i believe to be], an over the top bias against him

[Bugg]

10 minutes ago, genot said:

I see you got some laughs and upvotes for that. He started thirteen games.

Also our super great 1st round run-stopping DT was not part of the goalline/short yardage defense. Grant you  DL guys get shuffled in and out almost every down. But if QW was "the best player in the draft" that's a bit absurd. 

Polite-ly QW was underwhelming for his draft slot. he looks like a fat doughy kid who was part of a very good Bama D that got fat on the lesser SEC teams and parlayed that into his draft status. Recall he begged off on the bench press at the combine. This gave Coffee Boy no pause. Hope he is not right now begging off on the bench press or anything else involving picking up and putting down heavy things. Because right now this pick sucks. 

[Sperm Edwards]

42 minutes ago, genot said:

I see you got some laughs and upvotes for that. He started thirteen games.

No, he was active for 13 games. He started just 9 games, and was off the field 1/3 to 1/2 of the time. 

He's young and the guy obviously has talent, but so far he sure didn't show a lot of #3 pick in the country talent. What's more, the opportunity to show it really opened up with the team unloading regular starter Leonard Williams after week 7.

We should have seen someone as highly touted/graded as QW go on a tear, just abusing QBs up the gut, at worst from week 8 onward; in doing so, making Gregg Williams look as great a match for the kid as he'd look foolish for every passing-down snap he sat out that resulted in a completion. Meanwhile the last I remember Jamal Adams had more QB pressures on safety blitzes than Quinnen Williams had all year, and at least by the numbers QW had one or zero QB pressures in 7 of his 13 games. 

Plain and simple, #3 in the country is excessive investment for a run stuffer, no matter how many snaps and starts he had or didn't have this year. You take a DT that high, and gift him Gregg Williams as his rookie DC, you're looking to see one of the league's premiere game-changers at the position, and see a lot more "flashes" as a rookie.

[Bugg]

41 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No, he was active for 13 games. He started just 9 games, and was off the field 1/3 to 1/2 of the time. 

He's young and the guy obviously has talent, but so far he sure didn't show a lot of #3 pick in the country talent. What's more, the opportunity to show it really opened up with the team unloading regular starter Leonard Williams after week 7.

We should have seen someone as highly touted/graded as QW go on a tear, just abusing QBs up the gut, at worst from week 8 onward; in doing so, making Gregg Williams look as great a match for the kid as he'd look foolish for every passing-down snap he sat out that resulted in a completion. Meanwhile the last I remember Jamal Adams had more QB pressures on safety blitzes than Quinnen Williams had all year, and at least by the numbers QW had one or zero QB pressures in 7 of his 13 games. 

Plain and simple, #3 in the country is excessive investment for a run stuffer, no matter how many snaps and starts he had or didn't have this year. You take a DT that high, and gift him Gregg Williams as his rookie DC, you're looking to see one of the league's premiere game-changers at the position, and see a lot more "flashes" as a rookie.

Gregg Williams used the safety blitz so often because the DL got so little pressure on QBs. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it blew up in their faces. DOn't think any DC wants to employ the safety blitz as often as the Jets did. 

[ChuckkieB]

Q was a terrible pick made by a terrible GM. He had ZERO impact on the 2019 Jets and was a massive disappointment by just about every football measurement. If he can be moved for a few decent picks, Douglas needs to make that happen.      

[genot]

37 minutes ago, ChuckkieB said:

Q was a terrible pick made by a terrible GM. He had ZERO impact on the 2019 Jets and was a massive disappointment by just about every football measurement. If he can be moved for a few decent picks, Douglas needs to make that happen.      

 

37 minutes ago, ChuckkieB said:

Q was a terrible pick made by a terrible GM. He had ZERO impact on the 2019 Jets and was a massive disappointment by just about every football measurement. If he can be moved for a few decent picks, Douglas needs to make that happen.      

How did we finish with a top ten defense. Magic. That famous Jet good luck. How. Please explain it to me. And please don't say gregg williams. He isn't a miracle worker

 

[genot]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No, he was active for 13 games. He started just 9 games, and was off the field 1/3 to 1/2 of the time. 

He's young and the guy obviously has talent, but so far he sure didn't show a lot of #3 pick in the country talent. What's more, the opportunity to show it really opened up with the team unloading regular starter Leonard Williams after week 7.

We should have seen someone as highly touted/graded as QW go on a tear, just abusing QBs up the gut, at worst from week 8 onward; in doing so, making Gregg Williams look as great a match for the kid as he'd look foolish for every passing-down snap he sat out that resulted in a completion. Meanwhile the last I remember Jamal Adams had more QB pressures on safety blitzes than Quinnen Williams had all year, and at least by the numbers QW had one or zero QB pressures in 7 of his 13 games. 

Plain and simple, #3 in the country is excessive investment for a run stuffer, no matter how many snaps and starts he had or didn't have this year. You take a DT that high, and gift him Gregg Williams as his rookie DC, you're looking to see one of the league's premiere game-changers at the position, and see a lot more "flashes" as a rookie.

Your not going to see that for the position he plays. especially in his rookie year. A 4-3 DT, with a quality end at his side, yes, you would expect to see more splash plays. Not a 3-4 DT in his rookie year, trying to figure out where the blocks are coming from. Etc, etc.

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

16 hours ago, genot said:

The only idiots, are the ones forming a judgement about a rookie DT. the same idiots who said Shepard was a bust last year. Shepard, clearly took a big leap foward this year.

If you want to call MAYBE becoming “serviceable” in Shepherd’s case being a “big leap” be my guest.  A 3rd Rd pick SHOULD BE serviceable.  But in Jetland it’s a cause for celebration, and since the bar is so low with the Jets, fans think a guy who looks serviceable has taken a “big leap”.

Gil Brandt took the Jets to task a few months ago.  He went through a litany of draft picks the Jets made over the last 5 years and concentrated on Rds 3-5 acknowledging that 99% were busts and said flat out...”you can not compete in this league when you draft like that...you just can’t”.....and this is why no team in the league will ever offer Mike Maccagnan so much as a janitor’s job...and why the Jets have a Bottom 3 roster.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, Bugg said:

Gregg Williams used the safety blitz so often because the DL got so little pressure on QBs. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it blew up in their faces. DOn't think any DC wants to employ the safety blitz as often as the Jets did. 

No doubt, but the point is more that even with the <50% of opposition pass attempts, on which Adams blitzed instead of dropping into coverage, Adams still got closer to the QB something like 50% more than QW did. 

Well presumably Gregg Williams still sees something in him because Douglas allegedly turned down something really good, and I can't believe he didn't ask GW if he's worth keeping or if he should take the money and run.

[genot]

1 hour ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

If you want to call MAYBE becoming “serviceable” in Shepherd’s case being a “big leap” be my guest.  A 3rd Rd pick SHOULD BE serviceable.  But in Jetland it’s a cause for celebration, and since the bar is so low with the Jets, fans think a guy who looks serviceable has taken a “big leap”.

Gil Brandt took the Jets to task a few months ago.  He went through a litany of draft picks the Jets made over the last 5 years and concentrated on Rds 3-5 acknowledging that 99% were busts and said flat out...”you can not compete in this league when you draft like that...you just can’t”.....and this is why no team in the league will ever offer Mike Maccagnan so much as a janitor’s job...and why the Jets have a Bottom 3 roster.

A bottom three roster, according to you. Not me. If we had a field goal kicker against the bills, and Darnold didn't get mono, we would have won 10 games. Positively 9 games. Right or wrong. I'm sure the comeback will be our weak schedule. You still have to show up and make plays to win. The bengals don't field a bunch of boy scouts.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, genot said:

Your not going to see that for the position he plays. especially in his rookie year. A 4-3 DT, with a quality end at his side, yes, you would expect to see more splash plays. Not a 3-4 DT in his rookie year, trying to figure out where the blocks are coming from. Etc, etc.

This is just untrue for a variety of reasons

[BurnleyJet]

2 hours ago, genot said:

A bottom three roster, according to you. Not me. If we had a field goal kicker against the bills, and Darnold didn't get mono, we would have won 10 games. Positively 9 games. Right or wrong. I'm sure the comeback will be our weak schedule. You still have to show up and make plays to win. The bengals don't field a bunch of boy scouts.

SAR1’S burner account?