Q. Williams vs Allen: quote from SNY article

[Peace Frog]

15 minutes ago, CTJetsFan said:

Check out my post on Mayock's comments on NFL Radio yesterday. They were never trading up

It was a joke.  Folks here think of a hypothetical trade that Mac coulda shoulda woulda done and complain when he didn't.

Not the year to trade back but folks can't get over it.  

[themeangreenkillingmachine]

Shepard is the 4th best player on the defense? He didn’t even record 4 tackles last year. 

Best defensive player rankings

1. Adams

2. Mosley

3 williams

4. Toss up between Johnson/Williamson/Anderson 

 

 

 

[varjet]

1 hour ago, MichaelScott said:

In conclusion, while I'm sure opposing olineman will be in compete fear of the guy with braces lined up across from them, he was the wrong pick. Mac still sucks and he f'ed us again. 

To me, whether Mac keeps his job for 2020 should be pretty simple.   It must be crystal clear that Quinnen was a better pick than Josh Allen.  

If Josh Allen looks like Von Miller and/or wins DROY while Quinnen is ok, we should just fire him.  

[section314]

1 minute ago, varjet said:

To me, whether Mac keeps his job for 2020 should be pretty simple.   It must be crystal clear that Quinnen was a better pick than Josh Allen.  

If Josh Allen looks like Von Miller and/or wins DROY while Quinnen is ok, we should just fire him.  

Just to throw this into the mix.......what if Polite wins DROY? What do we do then?

[MichaelScott]

1 hour ago, varjet said:

To me, whether Mac keeps his job for 2020 should be pretty simple.   It must be crystal clear that Quinnen was a better pick than Josh Allen.  

If Josh Allen looks like Von Miller and/or wins DROY while Quinnen is ok, we should just fire him.  

Completely agree. And I've defended Mac longer than most, I've only relatively recently shifted to completely disliking him and wanting him gone. Whatever reprieve he got from Darnold falling into his lap was used up with the 100k back account and 3rd overall pick this offseason. 

If Quinnen is not undisputedly better than Allen this year, he is gone.

No questions. No excuses.

No "Q is only 20, it's his rookie season".

No "but they play different positions" - because that's the entire point of why this was a failed pick. Allen's position is significantly more important.

Mac wanted to play it safe. Fine. You dont get to rest on the excuse of "You cant expect a 3-4DE/DT to put up the same numbers as a RUSH OLB" Because that's exactly why this was a wasted pick in the first place. Q is either undoubtably a higher DROY candidate than Allen, or you're done. 

Mac better pray Allen is a bust. Ironically that is probably the worst case scenario for the Jets, because it might end up with Mac keeping his job. 

[MichaelScott]

59 minutes ago, section314 said:

Just to throw this into the mix.......what if Polite wins DROY? What do we do then?

sh*t. Lol

(I literally laughed a little at that)

[section314]

4 minutes ago, MichaelScott said:

sh*t. Lol

(I literally laughed a little at that)

Here to help.?

[varjet]

1 hour ago, section314 said:

Just to throw this into the mix.......what if Polite wins DROY? What do we do then?

Ok.  That is unlikely, but I guess its not that simple. We are assuming that Polite at best is a very good DPR.  

[varjet]

15 minutes ago, MichaelScott said:

Completely agree. And I've defended Mac longer than most, I've only relatively recently shifted to completely disliking him and wanting him gone. Whatever reprieve he got from Darnold falling into his lap was used up with the 100k back account and 3rd overall pick this offseason. 

If Quinnen is not undisputedly better than Allen this year, he is gone.

No questions. No excuses.

No "Q is only 20, it's his rookie season".

No "but they play different positions" - because that's the entire point of why this was a failed pick. Allen's position is significantly more important.

Mac wanted to play it safe. Fine. You dont get to rest on the excuse of "You cant expect a 3-4DE/DT to put up the same numbers as a RUSH OLB" Because that's exactly why this was a wasted pick in the first place. Q is either undoubtably a higher DROY candidate than Allen, or you're done. 

Mac better pray Allen is a bust. Ironically that is probably the worst case scenario for the Jets, because it might end up with Mac keeping his job. 

You said it better than I did.  Thanks.  This is the issue when you already have Leo, Henry, McClendon and 2 of last year’s DL draft picks on the roster.  

[Jetsfan80]

6 hours ago, jack48 said:

the point was to reply to the phrase "Macc has no viable plan here."

Which is correct.  He doesn't.  And its his job to have a viable plan for building a strong roster.

[MichaelScott]

1 hour ago, section314 said:

Here to help.?

But to answer your question - I dont want to be one of those fans that has an opinion about something that I'm going to stubbornly cling to it if/when something contrary to my opinion occurs. 

If Polite was DROY I would have to own being wrong and give Mac the credit due. In that scenario, even if Q plays closer to his floor, if Mac solved our pass rush need in the 3rd with a ballsy pick like that, I would happily be yelling his praise. At the end of the day, I would much rather be wrong and see the Jets succeed. I'd be thrilled to have Mac make a fool out of me, I just don't think that likely, tbh. 

Your point has got me thinking, because in reality there are a variety of scenarios that would make the outcome (for Mac) less clear cut. What if we are right about Q and Allen, but Edoga steps in and becomes our best starter on the oline. Mac still failed at 3 overall, but landed a solution to an oline spot. Does finding a starting T later make up for dropping the ball at the biggest pick? 

[FidelioJet]

3 hours ago, themeangreenkillingmachine said:

Shepard is the 4th best player on the defense? He didn’t even record 4 tackles last year. 

Best defensive player rankings

1. Adams

2. Mosley

3 williams

4. Toss up between Johnson/Williamson/Anderson 

 

 

 

That's a lot of money and high draft picks to be good at stopping the run.

[Jetsfan80]

14 minutes ago, MichaelScott said:

But to answer your question - I dont want to be one of those fans that has an opinion about something that I'm going to stubbornly cling to it if/when something contrary to my opinion occurs. 

If Polite was DROY I would have to own being wrong and give Mac the credit due. In that scenario, even if Q plays closer to his floor, if Mac solved our pass rush need in the 3rd with a ballsy pick like that, I would happily be yelling his praise. At the end of the day, I would much rather be wrong and see the Jets succeed. I'd be thrilled to have Mac make a fool out of me, I just don't think that likely, tbh. 

Your point has got me thinking, because in reality there are a variety of scenarios that would make the outcome (for Mac) less clear cut. What if we are right about Q and Allen, but Edoga steps in and becomes our best starter on the oline. Mac still failed at 3 overall, but landed a solution to an oline spot. Does finding a starting T later make up for dropping the ball at the biggest pick? 

 

Its the GM's job to hit on picks, and occasionally have a guy outplay his draft spot.

If Quinnen fails but Polite and Edoga succeed, that'll be nice, but the waste at that high draft capital spot in the top 5 will be another in a laundry list of reasons why Maccagnan should already have been fired.

[MichaelScott]

2 hours ago, varjet said:

You said it better than I did.  Thanks.  This is the issue when you already have Leo, Henry, McClendon and 2 of last year’s DL draft picks on the roster.  

Henry is actually one aspect of this situation that bothers me the most.

 Because of how productive Henry was last year, I've felt that landing him for a 7th was one of (if not the single) best move Mac has made. I was thrilled when he was resigned and it made that trade even better. Mac landed a DE with more impact for a 7th and kept him with a very reasonable contract @ 8.4mil/year average. THAT is how you dedicate resources to the 3-4 DE position! Late(r) round draft picks on high motor, work their ass off players that you sign to reasonable contracts! You do NOT fill low impact, nonpremium positions with multiple first round picks, and definitely not 6th or 3rd overall picks. And you dont tie up 16+mil/year on that nonpremium position. 

Mac made a couple great moves with trading for and resigning Henry. He had effectively, to some degree, corrected the Leo mistake by landing his more productive and cheaper replacement. What does he then proceed to do? He completely negates those great moves by wasting a 3rd overall on the same f*cking position! And in the process, most likely lowered Henry's value to the team. You've got 3 players for 2 positions. Who is going to see less snaps? It's probably NOT going to be your 3rd overall rookie or overpriced former 6th overall pick. So itll end up being Henry (Previously Macs best move lol) that sees the field less. 

Its insanity. And I havent even mentioned the fact that we already went down the road of investing a ton of resources into a SUPER 3-4 Dline, as a replacement for a OLB pass rusher, and it didnt work!!!

"You can never have too many expensive run stuffing DE's"... said no one, ever. 

[MichaelScott]

16 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Its the GM's job to hit on picks, and occasionally have a guy outplay his draft spot.

If Quinnen fails but Polite and Edoga succeed, that'll be nice, but the waste at that high draft capital spot in the top 5 will be another in a laundry list of reasons why Maccagnan should already have been fired.

Agreed. I think at this point, given his list of failures, the only outcome that saves Mac is Q being significantly better than Allen (while hitting big on at least one later pick), or the outside scenario of Polite being DROY, that the other poster mentioned. 

[artemusclyde]

48 minutes ago, MichaelScott said:

Henry is actually one aspect of this situation that bothers me the most.

 Because of how productive Henry was last year, I've felt that landing him for a 7th was one of (if not the single) best move Mac has made. I was thrilled when he was resigned and it made that trade even better. Mac landed a DE with more impact for a 7th and kept him with a very reasonable contract @ 8.4mil/year average. THAT is how you dedicate resources to the 3-4 DE position! Late(r) round draft picks on high motor, work their ass off players that you sign to reasonable contracts! You do NOT fill low impact, nonpremium positions with multiple first round picks, and definitely not 6th or 3rd overall picks. And you dont tie up 16+mil/year on that nonpremium position. 

Mac made a couple great moves with trading for and resigning Henry. He had effectively, to some degree, corrected the Leo mistake by landing his more productive and cheaper replacement. What does he then proceed to do? He completely negates those great moves by wasting a 3rd overall on the same f*cking position! And in the process, most likely lowered Henry's value to the team. You've got 3 players for 2 positions. Who is going to see less snaps? It's probably NOT going to be your 3rd overall rookie or overpriced former 6th overall pick. So itll end up being Henry (Previously Macs best move lol) that sees the field less. 

Its insanity. And I havent even mentioned the fact that we already went down the road of investing a ton of resources into a SUPER 3-4 Dline, as a replacement for a OLB pass rusher, and it didnt work!!!

"You can never have too many expensive run stuffing DE's"... said no one, ever. 

Nah, when we drafted Quinnen we announced him as a nose tackle. Anderson and Leo will play edges with Quinnen in the middle.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, artemusclyde said:

Nah, when we drafted Quinnen we announced him as a nose tackle. Anderson and Leo will play edges with Quinnen in the middle.

Highest drafted NT in NFL history.

[MichaelScott]

16 minutes ago, artemusclyde said:

Nah, when we drafted Quinnen we announced him as a nose tackle. Anderson and Leo will play edges with Quinnen in the middle.

Ah, wonderful. An undersized, run stuffing 3-4NT at 3rd overall. ??

The position where we, fairly recently, had the best player in the league. The position we subsequently deemed not important enough to resign said best playet in the league (who was ironically acquired as an UDFA). 

So... Mac can take Quinnen @ 3, who plays a position that happens to be one of the very few on this roster that IS NOT an immediate need. Supporters help justify this pick because, although not a need, happens to he the position played by the current best D player in the league. Mac takes Quinnen and, Hey! Why not? Maybe he'll be Aaron Donald. The Jets then proceed to take "maybe Aaron Donald" and play him out of position, at a position where their entire purpose is to tie up blockers, so your other playmakers can succeed. But I thought Q was supposed to be our play maker? 

Am I the only one that can't figure out how this sh*t makes any God damn sense??? 

[MichaelScott]

36 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Highest drafted NT in NFL history.

And also a player that is not a NT at all and whose skills will likely be completely negated at that position...

But we have a plan. 

[RobR]

10 minutes ago, MichaelScott said:

Ah, wonderful. An undersized, run stuffing 3-4NT at 3rd overall. ??

The position where we, fairly recently, had the best player in the league. The position we subsequently deemed not important enough to resign said best playet in the league (who was ironically acquired as an UDFA). 

So... Mac can take Quinnen @ 3, who plays a position that happens to be one of the very few on this roster that IS NOT an immediate need. Supporters help justify this pick because, although not a need, happens to he the position played by the current best D player in the league. Mac takes Quinnen and, Hey! Why not? Maybe he'll be Aaron Donald. The Jets then proceed to take "maybe Aaron Donald" and play him out of position, at a position where their entire purpose is to tie up blockers, so your other playmakers can succeed. But I thought Q was supposed to be our play maker? 

Am I the only one that can't figure out how this sh*t makes any God damn sense??? 

I didn't like the pick and I hate our GM but to be fair I don't see him lining up at the zero tech very much.

[Jetsfan80]

55 minutes ago, RobR said:

I didn't like the pick and I hate our GM but to be fair I don't see him lining up at the zero tech very much.

Then who will?  Because if we put McLendon or Fatukaski there, it means Leo or Henry Anderson comes off the field.

[CTJetsFan]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Then who will?  Because if we put McLendon or Fatukaski there, it means Leo or Henry Anderson comes off the field.

I believe that G. Williams' version of the 3-4 will end up being very similar to Wade Phillips' 1-gap version (as opposed to the traditional 2 gap version)

https://www.denverpost.com/2016/02/07/for-wade-phillips-broncos-3-4-defense-and-one-gap-equals-dominance/

[RobR]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Then who will?  Because if we put McLendon or Fatukaski there, it means Leo or Henry Anderson comes off the field.

It's not always black and white when we are running a 3-4 that you HAVE to line someone up at zero tech(directly over the center). Williams has always employed more of an attacking one gap system, while other coaches prefer a read and react where the zero tech would be responsible for two gaps on most occasions. Williams already stated he has 40+ different alignments for his defense, and I'll be shocked if he uses a true zero tech much at all.

It relates somewhat to all of the posters that think Leo would be a better player if he played inside. Guess what, he did a ton of that last year but most people don't realize that. They think he lines up over the Tackle every single snap which couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[MichaelScott]

1 hour ago, RobR said:

I didn't like the pick and I hate our GM but to be fair I don't see him lining up at the zero tech very much.

I completely agree with you and hope that you're right. Nothing about him says NT and they'd probably be wasting his best strengths.

If the posters that have mentioned it are incorrect, then it brings my back to my original point of forcing you to take assets off the field. We saw the same thing with Wilk/Sheldon/Leo. You're either taking someone off the field (Probably Henry in this case) or playing someone stupidly out of position. Sheldon at OLB would be our QWill at NT

[Philc1]

8 hours ago, themeangreenkillingmachine said:

Shepard is the 4th best player on the defense? He didn’t even record 4 tackles last year. 

Best defensive player rankings

1. Adams

2. Mosley

3 williams

4. Toss up between Johnson/Williamson/Anderson 

 

 

 

The “expert” on the jets defense thinks a backup 3-4 DE who had a bad rookie year is better than Jamal Adams and CJ Mosely

[Philc1]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Then who will?  Because if we put McLendon or Fatukaski there, it means Leo or Henry Anderson comes off the field.

So?  Good defenses rotate front 7 players

[Philc1]

4 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Highest drafted NT in NFL history.

[artemusclyde]

13 hours ago, MichaelScott said:

I completely agree with you and hope that you're right. Nothing about him says NT and they'd probably be wasting his best strengths.

If the posters that have mentioned it are incorrect, then it brings my back to my original point of forcing you to take assets off the field. We saw the same thing with Wilk/Sheldon/Leo. You're either taking someone off the field (Probably Henry in this case) or playing someone stupidly out of position. Sheldon at OLB would be our QWill at NT

I mean Goodell announced him as a nose tackle, so I assume that's where we're playing him/the Jets envision him playing.

 

[Philc1]

2 minutes ago, artemusclyde said:

I mean Goodell announced him as a nose tackle, so I assume that's where we're playing him/the Jets envision him playing.

 

He can play everywhere on the defensive line and will

[MichaelScott]

7 hours ago, artemusclyde said:

I mean Goodell announced him as a nose tackle, so I assume that's where we're playing him/the Jets envision him playing.

 

All I can say at this point is ??‍♂️??‍♂️??‍♂️

Q is definitely not what comes to mind when I think about the best or most dominant NT I've seen over the years. I think more Vince Wilfork and Snacks. 

It is what it is. At the end of the day Gregg Williams has forgotten more about NFL defences than I'll ever know in my lifetime. If he sees Q as a 3-4 NT... What do I know ??‍♂️ I'm going to hope for the best. 

But not for nothing, if he is a NT... We selected a NT over a rush OLB? Call him whatever the hell they want, if they put him in a position to smack the QB and impact the game, I will be thrilled and beyond happy to be wrong 

[artemusclyde]

10 hours ago, MichaelScott said:

All I can say at this point is ??‍♂️??‍♂️??‍♂️

Q is definitely not what comes to mind when I think about the best or most dominant NT I've seen over the years. I think more Vince Wilfork and Snacks. 

It is what it is. At the end of the day Gregg Williams has forgotten more about NFL defences than I'll ever know in my lifetime. If he sees Q as a 3-4 NT... What do I know ??‍♂️ I'm going to hope for the best. 

But not for nothing, if he is a NT... We selected a NT over a rush OLB? Call him whatever the hell they want, if they put him in a position to smack the QB and impact the game, I will be thrilled and beyond happy to be wrong 

We drafted Polite at olb. I'd rather have Polite in the 3rd round than Josh Allen at the 3rd overall pick. Remember, Polite was considered a 1st round pick before he dirty bulked at the combine and choked in his interviews. 

[MichaelScott]

7 hours ago, artemusclyde said:

We drafted Polite at olb. I'd rather have Polite in the 3rd round than Josh Allen at the 3rd overall pick. Remember, Polite was considered a 1st round pick before he dirty bulked at the combine and choked in his interviews. 

If Polite ends up being a productive edge rusher for us AND Q turns out to be what he is supposed to be... Obviously best case scenario for us, but it needs to be those two things coming together. One or the other and I cant call this draft a success. 

[#27TheDominator]

On 5/4/2019 at 4:57 PM, MichaelScott said:

Ah, wonderful. An undersized, run stuffing 3-4NT at 3rd overall. ??

The position where we, fairly recently, had the best player in the league. The position we subsequently deemed not important enough to resign said best playet in the league (who was ironically acquired as an UDFA). 

So... Mac can take Quinnen @ 3, who plays a position that happens to be one of the very few on this roster that IS NOT an immediate need. Supporters help justify this pick because, although not a need, happens to he the position played by the current best D player in the league. Mac takes Quinnen and, Hey! Why not? Maybe he'll be Aaron Donald. The Jets then proceed to take "maybe Aaron Donald" and play him out of position, at a position where their entire purpose is to tie up blockers, so your other playmakers can succeed. But I thought Q was supposed to be our play maker? 

Am I the only one that can't figure out how this sh*t makes any God damn sense??? 

At 4th overall, sure, but never 3rd!

On 5/4/2019 at 6:14 PM, CTJetsFan said:

I believe that G. Williams' version of the 3-4 will end up being very similar to Wade Phillips' 1-gap version (as opposed to the traditional 2 gap version)

https://www.denverpost.com/2016/02/07/for-wade-phillips-broncos-3-4-defense-and-one-gap-equals-dominance/

Isn't that one-gapping 3-4 what Bowles was going to use to make Leonard Williams a star?

8 hours ago, artemusclyde said:

We drafted Polite at olb. I'd rather have Polite in the 3rd round than Josh Allen at the 3rd overall pick. Remember, Polite was considered a 1st round pick before he dirty bulked at the combine and choked in his interviews. 

...and then a month later he ran even slower and was presumably not in any better shape at his pro day?  Use the hamstring excuse.  It is more plausible.  

[bitonti]

But Josh Allen wasn't the second edge off the board

Clelin Ferrell went 4th. This should be a Ferrell discussion tbh. Josh Allen's falling proves he wasn't ever worth 3.  

It's like yeah I like Ed Oliver but he went 9th 

the jets got arguably the #1 prospect in the draft at #3

if Williams was gone we could talk about Allen/Oliver/Ferrell etc. 

 

[rangerous]

the fact that q williams is a dline player is an issue when the need was edge but at the same time was allen good enough to warrant a top 10 pick let alone the top three?  hard to say.  one that is certain is that these guys rotate in and out the whole game and it's a lot tougher for the big guys to stay fresh.