Gary Meyers reporting that Jamal and Jets have hit impass over contract, trade possible.

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, DetroitRed said:

Sean Taylor was not going to turn into LT and vice versa.  I want Jamal Adams to turn into Jamal Adams.  I am not obsessed with ints.  I want high end production and game changing plays, which he absolutely has produced over his career, multiple times.  When he doesn't play at a first team all pro level, get back to me

When a Safety who can't produce turnovers justifies top Safety/defensive player money, you get back to me.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, JetFreak89 said:

Yeah, can you imagine what dynasties the Ravens, Steelers and Patriots would have turned into if they had actually held on to Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu and Devin McCourty (who appears earlier in this thread as one of the highest paid safeties in the league) or Lawyer Milloy? 

Putting Adams in the category of either of those first 2 Safeties you listed is completely laughable.  And McCourty money falls well short of what Adams' demands will be.

As for Milloy, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Belichick dumped Milloy 5 days before the 2003 season.  They went 14-2 and won the Super Bowl that year.

[JetFreak89]

19 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

What if you could avoid the months of distraction and whining and instead gained two high draft picks next year and all you gave up was 61 tackles and a garbage time INT?

I feel you, I do. But with this team's track record in the draft two high draft picks don't necessarily do it for me without the guarantee that both become solid starters. Couple that with the fact that the teams we are being linked to in terms of a trade are likely playoff teams so at most we are talking a late round first and late round second (or third) and my interest drops further. 

Now, I'm high on Joe D so if this 2020 draft class and the next one are legit and perform the way we hope they do, I'll have some more faith that those draft picks will actually be put to good use. So far I like what I'm seeing though. 

[JetFreak89]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Putting Adams in the category of either of those first 2 Safeties you listed is completely laughable.  And McCourty money falls well short of what Adams' demands will be.

As for Milloy, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Belichick dumped Milloy 5 days before the 2003 season.  They went 14-2 and won the Super Bowl that year.

I'm sorry, I thought your argument was that "successful franchises" would have no problem trading away their best safeties so that they could use the resources in other areas......is that not what we are discussing right now? 

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

They let all-pro players in their prime go all the time? Let's see if you can give 2 examples from each team since they apparently do this "all the time".

 

The Patriots cut 4x Pro Bowler and 1x First Team All-Pro Lawyer Milloy 5 days before the 2003 seasons.  He was only 29 at the time.  

The Patriots also traded 5x Pro Bowler and 3x First Team All-Pro Richard Seymour to the Raiders for a 1st rounder in 2009.  Seymour was 29.

Logan Mankins is also a pretty good example for the Pats as well.  He was 31 and had been to 5 straight Pro Bowls before he got moved to the Bucs.  The Pats also declined their team option on Vince Wilfork in 2015.  He then signed with the Texans.

The Steelers cut 5x Pro Bowler and 2x 1st Team All-Pro James Harrison after the 2012 season.  Granted, he was 34 years old at the time.  But he certainly fits what you were looking for.  Especially since he was a Pro Bowler in 2011 and 1st Team All-Pro in 2010.  

Antonio Brown would be a good example for the Steelers too, no?  People were calling them crazy for moving him when they did for just a 3rd and 5th rounder.  Just like they were called crazy for trading Santonio Holmes for a 5th rounder, or for letting go of Plaxico Burress and Mike Wallace.  None of those 3 were on Brown's level, but they've certainly established a pattern of letting WR's walk before paying them.  JuJu Smith-Schuster could be the next one after he hits free agency in 2021.

The Ravens allowed Ed Reed to walk in Free Agency after the 2012 season.  He had just reached the Pro Bowl the year before, with 4 INTs, 1 TD, 15 PDs and 3 FR. 

The Ravens also traded 5x Pro Bowler and 2x First Team All-Pro Haloti Ngata to the Lions for a 4th round pick after the 2013 season, when he was only 29.  

[Vader]

darelle revis has 29 career INTs. 

ty law has 53.

deion sanders has 53.

champ bailey has 52.

aeneas williams has 55.

james hasty has 45.

but i guess Darelle Revis' lack of turnover statistics shows that he was unproductive, not on the level of the Ty Law's, Deion Sanders, and Champ Baileys...

certainly tied for 228th in NFL history in INTs makes revis a CB turd just like the otis smith's of the world, with whom he is tied at 228 (with like 10 others too.) 

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

And it was a bad move not to pay Robby.  Free agency we downgraded at WR.  Was that a good move?

Adam’s isn’t going anywhere.

Whether it was a bad move or not, you were wrong.  Just like you're going to be wrong about Jamal.  He's not going to be a Jet beyond his rookie contract.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, heymangold said:

Question for all the Jamal guys stating he doesn’t get INTs and he’s a safety - do you disagree with the Mets signing Jacob DeGrom as a Cy Young award winner that doesn’t win games?

Wow with that analogy, lol. 

DeGrom puts up numbers that matter.  Adams doesn't, AND he also doesn't win.  

[DetroitRed]

In the post I was responding to you, you literally said "He makes game changing plays.  That makes a team a winner."
In this post, you then explain away why he isn't making the team a winner.

Nope. Never made a he statement. That was Mac statement


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, JetFreak89 said:

Yes, because as well know, a lack of interceptions renders all tackles, sacks, hurries, passes defended and every other defensive stat meaningless. I honestly can't tell if you are just trolling here. 

Serious question, if Jamal got an interception on 4th and 1 instead of making the stop against the Giants or if he got an int instead of pressuring Dak into an incompletion on the 2 point conversion to seal the game against Dallas does he magically become a better safety? 

 

Add up ALL turnovers forced and it doesn't help your cause.  Thru three seasons, Adams has 2 INTs, 4 FRs and 6 FFs.  Not all FFs were recovered by the Jets, but let's put them in that category anyways.  12 turnovers forced in 3 seasons.

Thru his first 3 seasons, Ed Reed had 21 INTs, 4 FFs, and 2 FRs.  27 turnovers forced.  

Thru his first 3 seasons, Eddie Jackson has 10 INTs, 4 FFs, and 5 FRs.  19 turnovers forced.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, JetsFanatic said:

This is a non story. We now have a competent GM who knows that you don’t trade the most talented player on the team. This contract will get done at the proper time. 

And in the meantime Jamal Adams will throw hissy fits, twitter tirades, fake injuries and cause locker room issues to try to force JD's hand.  That'll be fun.  

[Jetsfan80]

47 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

So keep turning over the entire roster until they're da winnahs?

Pretty much yes.  Its not JD's fault this franchise had poor draft after poor draft from 2008-2019.  He doesn't need to be doubling down on the mistakes of his predecessors by paying players who don't earn it.  Hence why he traded Leonard Williams for whatever he could get.

[Vader]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Add up ALL turnovers forced and it doesn't help your cause.  Thru three seasons, Adams has 2 INTs, 4 FRs and 6 FFs.  Not all FFs were recovered by the Jets, but let's put them in that category anyways.  12 turnovers forced in 3 seasons.

Thru his first 3 seasons, Ed Reed had 21 INTs, 4 FFs, and 2 FRs.  27 turnovers forced.  

Thru his first 3 seasons, Eddie Jackson has 10 INTs, 4 FFs, and 5 FRs.  19 turnovers forced.  

I'll repost this for effect:

darelle revis has 29 career INTs. 

ty law has 53.

deion sanders has 53.

champ bailey has 52.

aeneas williams has 55.

james hasty has 45.

but i guess Darelle Revis' lack of turnover statistics shows that he was unproductive, not on the level of the Ty Law's, Deion Sanders, and Champ Baileys...

certainly tied for 228th in NFL history in INTs makes revis a CB turd just like the otis smith's of the world, with whom he is tied at 228 (with like 10 others too.) 

[Jetsfan80]

32 minutes ago, JetFreak89 said:

I'm sorry, I thought your argument was that "successful franchises" would have no problem trading away their best safeties so that they could use the resources in other areas......is that not what we are discussing right now? 

It is.  And the Patriots did exactly that when they cut Lawyer Milloy when he was still only 29.  So your argument that this stuff never happens doesn't work.  

[choon328]

18 minutes ago, Vader said:

darelle revis has 29 career INTs. 

ty law has 53.

deion sanders has 53.

champ bailey has 52.

aeneas williams has 55.

james hasty has 45.

but i guess Darelle Revis' lack of turnover statistics shows that he was unproductive, not on the level of the Ty Law's, Deion Sanders, and Champ Baileys...

certainly tied for 228th in NFL history in INTs makes revis a CB turd just like the otis smith's of the world, with whom he is tied at 228 (with like 10 others too.) 

There is a huge difference of how you were allowed to play CB in the 80's, 90's and early 00's compared to when Revis played and now. That's why int numbers have been down across the NFL for over a decade. 

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, Vader said:

I'll repost this for effect:

darelle revis has 29 career INTs. 

ty law has 53.

deion sanders has 53.

champ bailey has 52.

aeneas williams has 55.

james hasty has 45.

but i guess Darelle Revis' lack of turnover statistics shows that he was unproductive, not on the level of the Ty Law's, Deion Sanders, and Champ Baileys...

certainly tied for 228th in NFL history in INTs makes revis a CB turd just like the otis smith's of the world, with whom he is tied at 228 (with like 10 others too.) 

 

lol.  Yes, Jamal is Darrelle Revis.  You win!

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, JetFreak89 said:

Yes, because as well know, a lack of interceptions renders all tackles, sacks, hurries, passes defended and every other defensive stat meaningless. I honestly can't tell if you are just trolling here. 

Serious question, if Jamal got an interception on 4th and 1 instead of making the stop against the Giants or if he got an int instead of pressuring Dak into an incompletion on the 2 point conversion to seal the game against Dallas does he magically become a better safety? 

His other stats aren't that good either, the interceptions are just glaring.  His sacks are an outlier, and not really what he's there for, considering 5 of 6.5 came against two bad rookie QBs.  You have to refresh twice before you see him on ESPN.com for passes defended, where he's tied for 98th.  He had half as many tackles as the top safety, he's not top 5 in safety tackles, he's not top 10 in safety tackles, he's not top 15 in safety tackles, he's not top 20 in safety tackles, he is tied for 25th.  In solo tackles, he wasn't top 20 either.  He did, again, lead the league in sacks by a DB, and you know why?  Because he's an extra linebacker - which, in comparison, he was tied for 21st among linebackers.

Serious answer, that's a dumb question.  One INT wouldn't make him better.  After 3 seasons Ed Reed had 21 INTs, Troy had 7 INTs, Dawkins had 8.  Yet, people talk about Adams like he's in this class.

[Gastineau Lives]

11 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Pretty much yes.  Its not JD's fault this franchise had poor draft after poor draft from 2008-2019.  He doesn't need to be doubling down on the mistakes of his predecessors by paying players who don't earn it.  Hence why he traded Leonard Williams for whatever he could get.

Entire roster. Until you go to the Super Bowl or is 9-7 enough?

[T0mShane]

10 minutes ago, Vader said:

darelle revis has 29 career INTs

At his current rate, Jamal Adams would have to play 40.5 more years in order to accumulate 29 INT’s. 

[ECURB]

4 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Belichick also cut Milloy just 5 days before the start of the 2003 season.  They went on to go 14-2 and win the Super Bowl that year without him.  

Ok great so sign Jamal and get rid of him 2 or 3 years from now. Doesn’t change the fact that you sign him.

Whether he was a part of the team later on or not he helped build what they had. If they traded him years prior they would have had to fill the hole right away... maybe with a 6th round pick... maybe never drafting Brady. ?

[Vader]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

At his current rate, Jamal Adams would have to play 40.5 more years in order to accumulate 29 INT’s. 

the point obvi, isn’t about Adams v Revis on interceptions and you know it.

its about Adams v his cohort of safeties and Revis v his cohort of CBs.

The point I am making — successfully — is that no one would argue that Revis ISNT in the top of his cohort as a cornerback. All time. 

Despite his lack of “interceptions”. 
 

 

[Vader]

17 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

lol.  Yes, Jamal is Darrelle Revis.  You win!

Point is — the same argument being made against Adams can be made against Revis. It’s a straw man. 
 

 

[Jetsfan80]

8 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Entire roster. Until you go to the Super Bowl or is 9-7 enough?

Until you become a perennial contender.  

He's already basically replaced all 5 starters on the OL, both starting WRs, the # 2 and 3 RB, and turned over just about the entire CB group.  Why would it be surprising, then, that just about all of Macc's guys will be gone by the time 2021/2022 rolls around?

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, Vader said:

Point is — the same argument being made against Adams can be made against Revis. It’s a straw man. 
 

No, it can't.  Revis demonstrated he was worth top defensive player money.  Adams has not.  

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, Vader said:

the point obvi, isn’t about Adams v Revis on interceptions and you know it.

its about Adams v his cohort of safeties and Revis v his cohort of CBs.

The point I am making — successfully — is that no one would argue that Revis ISNT in the top of his cohort as a cornerback. All time. 

Despite his lack of “interceptions”. 

Yes, because Revis demonstrably did things that mattered in the modern NFL, at least at the time when he got paid.  

You are absolutely not making your point successfully if your silly argument is "lol Revis didn't get INTs!" 

Adams doesn't get INTs OR force a whole lot of turnovers in total.  That's what you need out of a Safety.  Period.

[themeangreenkillingmachine]

43 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

The Patriots cut 4x Pro Bowler and 1x First Team All-Pro Lawyer Milloy 5 days before the 2003 seasons.  He was only 29 at the time.  

The Patriots also traded 5x Pro Bowler and 3x First Team All-Pro Richard Seymour to the Raiders for a 1st rounder in 2009.  Seymour was 29.

Logan Mankins is also a pretty good example for the Pats as well.  He was 31 and had been to 5 straight Pro Bowls before he got moved to the Bucs.  The Pats also declined their team option on Vince Wilfork in 2015.  He then signed with the Texans.

The Steelers cut 5x Pro Bowler and 2x 1st Team All-Pro James Harrison after the 2012 season.  Granted, he was 34 years old at the time.  But he certainly fits what you were looking for.  Especially since he was a Pro Bowler in 2011 and 1st Team All-Pro in 2010.  

Antonio Brown would be a good example for the Steelers too, no?  People were calling them crazy for moving him when they did for just a 3rd and 5th rounder.  Just like they were called crazy for trading Santonio Holmes for a 5th rounder, or for letting go of Plaxico Burress and Mike Wallace.  None of those 3 were on Brown's level, but they've certainly established a pattern of letting WR's walk before paying them.  JuJu Smith-Schuster could be the next one after he hits free agency in 2021.

The Ravens allowed Ed Reed to walk in Free Agency after the 2012 season.  He had just reached the Pro Bowl the year before, with 4 INTs, 1 TD, 15 PDs and 3 FR. 

The Ravens also traded 5x Pro Bowler and 2x First Team All-Pro Haloti Ngata to the Lions for a 4th round pick after the 2013 season, when he was only 29.  

All those players you mentioned were past their prime or head cases that imploded just after being dealt

[Jetsfan80]

10 minutes ago, ECURB said:

Ok great so sign Jamal and get rid of him 2 or 3 years from now. Doesn’t change the fact that you sign him.

"fact"

[Jetlife33]

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[Dcat]

6 hours ago, slats said:

"Idzik led a Jets contingent that traveled to his Oct. 18 game against Central Florida, when Pryor intercepted a pass in the end zone. Upon his return to Jets headquarters, Idzik told Ryan, “I just saw a guy that you’re going to absolutely love.” Idzik was right, Ryan said."

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/09/sports/football/jets-draft-calvin-pryor-for-physical-presence.html

You love John Idzik! Don't take away his crowning achievement! 

Where are the vomit emoji again?

[Jetsfan80]

6 minutes ago, themeangreenkillingmachine said:

All those players you mentioned were past their prime or head cases that imploded just after being dealt

They absolutely were not. 

Milloy had reached the Pro Bowl in 2002.   Seymour reached 2 more Pro Bowls AFTER getting traded to Oakland.  Milloy and Seymour were not "headcases" either.  Far from it.

Harrison had reached the Pro Bowl in 2011 and was a First Team All-Pro in 2010.  And he was so much of a head case that the Steelers  brought him back 2 years after letting him go.

Mankins had been to 5 straight Pro Bowls leading up to his trade to the Bucs, including the year they traded him.

Haloti Ngata had just reached the Pro Bowl in 2013.  

Yes, Ed Reed was past his prime and Antonio Brown was a headcase when they were moved.  It still came as a surprise when both were let go when they were.  Reed was still highly productive and Brown was arguably the best WR in the NFL.  When he was traded to the Raiders it was expected he'd do big things under Gruden.  

[Gastineau Lives]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Until you become a perennial contender.  

He's already basically replaced all 5 starters on the OL, both starting WRs, the # 2 and 3 RB, and turned over just about the entire CB group.  Why would it be surprising, then, that just about all of Macc's guys will be gone by the time 2021/2022 rolls around?

How do we do that without keeping at least a few of the good players?

[ZachEY]

10 hours ago, DetroitRed said:

Not me. You can absolutely talk about his lack of interceptions. Not really an issue to me at all. Please, keep talking

He makes game changing plays. That makes a team a winner. Twice in that Giants game alone. And he does it lining up from multiple spots on the field, including edge , slot and corner

 

 

 

2 hours ago, TeddEY said:

In the post I was responding to you, you literally said "He makes game changing plays.  That makes a team a winner."

In this post, you then explain away why he isn't making the team a winner.

 

37 minutes ago, DetroitRed said:

Nope. Never made a he statement. That was Mac statement

 

[Vader]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

No, it can't.  Revis demonstrated he was worth top defensive player money.  Adams has not.  

Well now you have changed your argument. Before it was “interceptions”...”stats”.

Now it’s “demonstrate”. Right. 

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

How do we do that without keeping at least a few of the good players?

We don't really have any from the Macc years.  That's the point.  JD essentially had to start from scratch.  That's what happens when your franchise has 5 straight bad drafts under its predecessor, along with a bunch of bad drafts from the other 2 GM's prior to Macc.

In any case I fully supported bringing back Jordan Jenkins and Brian Poole, for whatever its worth.  

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, Vader said:

Well now you have changed your argument. Before it was “interceptions”...”stats”.

Now it’s “demonstrate”. Right. 

CB1 and Safety are completely different positions.  It's an incredibly dumb argument.  Revis's stats that mattered were things like completion % against the WR1's he covered and pass deflections.  And even then, he DID get INTs.  At a pretty incredible rate too, given the very low frequency of times he was targeted.

You can't make the comparison between Jamal and other Safeties because you know you'll lose that argument.  I showed earlier in the thread how Eddie Jackson, taken in the same draft as Jamal, has been significantly more productive.