The QB Thread

[win4ever]

I'm squarely in the tank for Trevor camp, but god damn I'm starting to fall for Fields.   To me his arm strength isn't on par with Lawrence, but I've been really impressed with his ball trajectory and placement.  I'm not taking him over Trevor, but I'd seriously think about a trade down if there is God Father offer.   

[jvill 51]

Every throw/run from Fields so far this year:

 

[jvill 51]

Just now, jvill 51 said:

Every throw/run from Fields so far this year:

 

Super, super impressive IMO. Much more so than the game against Clemson last year. Accuracy/touch in the intermediate/long game is outstanding. Footwork and composure in the pocket is much improved. Not as concerned about his arm strength as I was after watching the Clemson tape, though I still did notice a tendency to float a couple of deep outs that warrants watching the rest of the way.

This is clearly not a Haskins/Geno Smith type situation where the numbers are inflated with a lot of short passes at all. Fields pushes the ball down the field and does it very, very well. His speed and athleticism is obvious but he doesn’t use it as a crutch, his eyes are always downfield (well almost; in the Nebraska game he had an easy TD pass on a roll out but decided to tuck and run).

My main concerns would be:

- not knowing when to give up on a play, taking too many sacks as a result (Very Watson/Wentz-like in this regard)

- very rarely asked to make more than one read / go through progressions (a problem most college QBs will have coming out). The few times he did it was a bit of a mixed bag between finding the open man and quickly pulling the trigger and holding on to the ball and taking the sack. To be fair it’s tough to tell if these were pure coverage sacks or if he missed an open man from the TV angle.

- velocity on throws outside the numbers, though again I’m not as concerned about this as I was previously

- sometimes has a tendency to trust his ability to place the ball too much, leading to throws into crowds which put his receivers at risk and could very well get him into trouble at the next level

- I haven’t seen him really misread the defense at all in these 3 games, but he definitely did a few times against Clemson last year (really he should have had 4 or 5 picks in that game). Not sure if that’s all due to mental improvement or if it’s just lackluster competition / one-read offense. Probably a combination.

- Not his fault obviously but I’m always concerned with QBs coming out without having played a lot of games. The shortened Big 10 season doesn’t help there.

All in all though some of the above is admittedly nitpicky and I came away very impressed. More impressed than I thought I would be honestly and my expectations were pretty high given all the hype. Looking forward to seeing If Fields can sustain this level of play throughout the season and against some better competition.

[TheMo]

On 11/12/2020 at 4:00 AM, jvill 51 said:

Super, super impressive IMO. Much more so than the game against Clemson last year. Accuracy/touch in the intermediate/long game is outstanding. Footwork and composure in the pocket is much improved. Not as concerned about his arm strength as I was after watching the Clemson tape, though I still did notice a tendency to float a couple of deep outs that warrants watching the rest of the way.

This is clearly not a Haskins/Geno Smith type situation where the numbers are inflated with a lot of short passes at all. Fields pushes the ball down the field and does it very, very well. His speed and athleticism is obvious but he doesn’t use it as a crutch, his eyes are always downfield (well almost; in the Nebraska game he had an easy TD pass on a roll out but decided to tuck and run).

My main concerns would be:

- not knowing when to give up on a play, taking too many sacks as a result (Very Watson/Wentz-like in this regard)

- very rarely asked to make more than one read / go through progressions (a problem most college QBs will have coming out). The few times he did it was a bit of a mixed bag between finding the open man and quickly pulling the trigger and holding on to the ball and taking the sack. To be fair it’s tough to tell if these were pure coverage sacks or if he missed an open man from the TV angle.

- velocity on throws outside the numbers, though again I’m not as concerned about this as I was previously

- sometimes has a tendency to trust his ability to place the ball too much, leading to throws into crowds which put his receivers at risk and could very well get him into trouble at the next level

- I haven’t seen him really misread the defense at all in these 3 games, but he definitely did a few times against Clemson last year (really he should have had 4 or 5 picks in that game). Not sure if that’s all due to mental improvement or if it’s just lackluster competition / one-read offense. Probably a combination.

- Not his fault obviously but I’m always concerned with QBs coming out without having played a lot of games. The shortened Big 10 season doesn’t help there.

All in all though some of the above is admittedly nitpicky and I came away very impressed. More impressed than I thought I would be honestly and my expectations were pretty high given all the hype. Looking forward to seeing If Fields can sustain this level of play throughout the season and against some better competition.

Agree. The main thing that gives me pause is the one read issue. I feel like from what I’ve seen of Lawrence and that waldman breakdown (really like his series in general) that’s where he has an edge, going through progressions and more autonomy at the LOS. 
 

@JiF @sec101row23 thoughts?

[jvill 51]

19 minutes ago, TheMo said:

Agree. The main thing that gives me pause is the one read issue. I feel like from what I’ve seen of Lawrence and that waldman breakdown (really like his series in general) that’s where he has an edge, going through progressions and more autonomy at the LOS. 
 

@JiF @sec101row23 thoughts?

Yeah I’ve looked for a Waldman breakdown of Fields but haven’t seen one. I have a feeling the takeaway would be very different from last year to this year, he really looks like he’s starting to put it all together. I have similar concerns with Lawrence though, teams like OSU and Clemson are so far ahead of the competition talent and scheme wise that its very rare the QBs have to come off their first read and make full field progressions. It’s a problem throughout college football, but I think its exacerbated with the top teams. I think what the Waldman breakdown showed was that when Lawrence does have to go through progressions he does a very good job tying his eyes to his feet and putting himself in position to make the throw. That’s the type of stuff I just don’t know enough about to pick up on or talk about from just watching the TV footage.

[TheMo]

11 minutes ago, jvill 51 said:

Yeah I’ve looked for a Waldman breakdown of Fields but haven’t seen one. I have a feeling the takeaway would be very different from last year to this year, he really looks like he’s starting to put it all together. I have similar concerns with Lawrence though, teams like OSU and Clemson are so far ahead of the competition talent and scheme wise that its very rare the QBs have to come off their first read and make full field progressions. It’s a problem throughout college football, but I think its exacerbated with the top teams. I think what the Waldman breakdown showed was that when Lawrence does have to go through progressions he does a very good job tying his eyes to his feet and putting himself in position to make the throw. That’s the type of stuff I just don’t know enough about to pick up on or talk about from just watching the TV footage.

Agreed. I guess I’m looking at fields I really haven’t seen it at all (doesn’t mean he can get through progressions to be clear, just hasn’t had to much) and when he does move through it’s been a mixed bag. I feel like Lawrence I’ve seen him have more success with the progressions. 

[jvill 51]

3 minutes ago, TheMo said:

Agreed. I guess I’m looking at fields I really haven’t seen it at all (doesn’t mean he can get through progressions to be clear, just hasn’t had to much) and when he does move through it’s been a mixed bag. I feel like Lawrence I’ve seen him have more success with the progressions. 

I agree with that. Too many times when Fields had to come off his first read it ended in a sack.

[JustInFudge]

On 11/14/2020 at 11:20 AM, TheMo said:

Agree. The main thing that gives me pause is the one read issue. I feel like from what I’ve seen of Lawrence and that waldman breakdown (really like his series in general) that’s where he has an edge, going through progressions and more autonomy at the LOS. 
 

@JiF @sec101row23 thoughts?

Sounds like he and you are describing Trevor Lawrence and not Justin Fields. 

The only thing I've seen that I agree with is Lawrence has more autonomy at the LOS.  Fields still looks to the sidelines but that doesnt mean that much anymore IMO.   Lawrence has also been in the system for 2 1/2 years as opposed to 1 1/2 for Fields. 

[derp]

26 minutes ago, JiF said:

Sounds like he and you are describing Trevor Lawrence and not Justin Fields. 

The only thing I've seen that I agree with is Lawrence has more autonomy at the LOS.  Fields still looks to the sidelines but that doesnt mean that much anymore IMO.   Lawrence has also been in the system for 2 1/2 years as opposed to 1 1/2 for Fields. 

Did you watch the Waldman piece? Was pretty interesting. Gave a better feel for why analysts like Lawrence so much. Interested to see their analysis of Fields when there inevitably is one.

I think we’re in the “play the backup” portion of the draft cycle, but it’s entirely possible Fields overtakes Lawrence as the consensus top guy. I’m curious what the site vibe, which seems very pro Fields to me right now, looks like if in fact that does happen.

One way or the other, this seems to be a good year to likely have a top two pick and likely need a quarterback.

[JustInFudge]

12 minutes ago, derp said:

Did you watch the Waldman piece? Was pretty interesting. Gave a better feel for why analysts like Lawrence so much. Interested to see their analysis of Fields when there inevitably is one.

I think we’re in the “play the backup” portion of the draft cycle, but it’s entirely possible Fields overtakes Lawrence as the consensus top guy. I’m curious what the site vibe, which seems very pro Fields to me right now, looks like if in fact that does happen.

One way or the other, this seems to be a good year to likely have a top two pick and likely need a quarterback.

I did watch it but those types of analysis do nothing for me.  For example; he was really bad vs. Ohio St and pathetically miserable vs. LSU.  Go look at it snap for snap, he was sloppy, inaccurate, his ball placement was terrible and he looked completely erratic in the OSU game.  They showed that game in a totally different light, as if he was unstoppable, only featuring one of his bad/read throws.  They literally didnt show a single play from the National Championship game vs. LSU.  lol  Also, early on in the video they show a throw that is clearly off target and a just an incredible adjustment by the WR and they go out of there way to call out that out as if it was not off target and intended to be not catchable.  They also used some ridiculously easy elementary pre-snap reads vs. the like of Georgia Tech as if that's an indication of next level QB acumen. 

So honestly, I didnt find it to be objective at all.  They wanted to see what they wanted to see and literally only showed 1 bad play in an hour of film.  I found it to be more of what is already happening, force feeding people this generational prospect.  And I'm not here saying TL sucks.  He could be great in the NFL and I wont cry if the Jets take him.  I'm just here saying hold up a second, this isnt as cant miss/generational as we're being sold. And it's just crazy ironic there is another dude who is incredible and elite at doing the things that IMO translate better in the NFL.

 

[Philc1]

On 11/9/2020 at 2:18 AM, win4ever said:

I'm squarely in the tank for Trevor camp, but god damn I'm starting to fall for Fields.   To me his arm strength isn't on par with Lawrence, but I've been really impressed with his ball trajectory and placement.  I'm not taking him over Trevor, but I'd seriously think about a trade down if there is God Father offer.   

If Trevor decides to dodge the Johnsons I’m fine with Failing for Fields 

[BCJet]

On 11/14/2020 at 12:13 PM, TheMo said:

Agreed. I guess I’m looking at fields I really haven’t seen it at all (doesn’t mean he can get through progressions to be clear, just hasn’t had to much) and when he does move through it’s been a mixed bag. I feel like Lawrence I’ve seen him have more success with the progressions. 

Brady Quinn (take it for what its worth, but he was a QB) said that Fields still needs to improve his anticipation.  He throws with accuracy, has a quick release and can run.  The key with him is improving his presnap, working through his progressions and throwing with anticipation.

He said the difference between him and Lawerence is that Lawerence is already doing all of the above at a high level.  

[kdels62]

Tell me why I’m supposed to think Zach Wilson isn’t a top 3 player in this draft.

[CTJetsFan]

On 11/16/2020 at 8:36 PM, kdels62 said:

Tell me why I’m supposed to think Zach Wilson isn’t a top 3 player in this draft.

If not top 3, at minimum, top 10. More likely top 5

[kdels62]

52 minutes ago, CTJetsFan said:

If not top 3, at minimum, top 10. More likely top 5

I am smitten with his play. I really hope they make the playoffs or they get a Bowl game against the SEC. The fact that he doesn’t seem to lock onto receivers is impressive. He has  very good arm and his “throwing the receiver open” ability is just so fun to watch.

[CTJetsFan]

1 hour ago, kdels62 said:

I am smitten with his play. I really hope they make the playoffs or they get a Bowl game against the SEC. The fact that he doesn’t seem to lock onto receivers is impressive. He has  very good arm and his “throwing the receiver open” ability is just so fun to watch.

Agree. I like him a lot too. Have watched 3 of his games this year. I will say - he's got a great set of WRs (and TEs) who do seem to win the majority of 50-50 balls he puts up.

[JustInFudge]

On 11/16/2020 at 8:36 PM, kdels62 said:

Tell me why I’m supposed to think Zach Wilson isn’t a top 3 player in this draft.

I'm listening to the calls for Zach Wilson.  100%.  He does some jaw dropping sh*t but to answer your question; it's level of competition. Granted he beat the breaks of Bosie but it's hard to get noticed when you're playing teams I didnt even know existed, like who is UTSA (its a college, not a NASA acronym)  ?   lol  

[derp]

On 11/20/2020 at 2:23 PM, CTJetsFan said:

Agree. I like him a lot too. Have watched 3 of his games this year. I will say - he's got a great set of WRs (and TEs) who do seem to win the majority of 50-50 balls he puts up.

There are plays he gets insane amounts of time to sit back and make a play, too.

The play style is super fun though, the arm talent is special, and he seems to understand risk and reward like the elite guys do which I think has to be harder than it seems. Does good job putting guys in a position to make plays without giving the defense a shot.

[kdels62]

4 hours ago, JiF said:

I'm listening to the calls for Zach Wilson.  100%.  He does some jaw dropping sh*t but to answer your question; it's level of competition. Granted he beat the breaks of Bosie but it's hard to get noticed when you're playing teams I didnt even know existed, like who is UTSA (its a college, not a NASA acronym)  ?   lol  

Pretty sure Marcus Davenport or some late rising player like him went to UTSA and that’s the only reason I know. 

Wilson’s talent is just so blatantly obvious. He’ll get at least a bowl to really show his talent against a good team and it will be telling. 

The thing for me right now is that I watch him play and then I watch Lawrence play and they’re both so good but Wilson’s style looks like the modern NFL QB. 

[JustInFudge]

2 hours ago, kdels62 said:

Pretty sure Marcus Davenport or some late rising player like him went to UTSA and that’s the only reason I know. 

Wilson’s talent is just so blatantly obvious. He’ll get at least a bowl to really show his talent against a good team and it will be telling. 

The thing for me right now is that I watch him play and then I watch Lawrence play and they’re both so good but Wilson’s style looks like the modern NFL QB. 

I dont know about all that...Lawrence is 6'6 freak athlete...not sure why he wouldnt be modern....but like I said, I'm watching, very interested to see him vs. a real Power 5 if it happens.

[kdels62]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

I dont know about all that...Lawrence is 6'6 freak athlete...not sure why he wouldnt be modern....but like I said, I'm watching, very interested to see him vs. a real Power 5 if it happens.

It’s about Lawrence’s base. He has that long step and uses his body a lot but he relies on his form so much that when he has less room around his feet he skies the ball. It’s traditionally good form and the release is pretty but as we saw against LSU and Ohio State, if you disrupt his form you disrupt his accuracy. 

Wilson throws from different bases and arm angles and doesn’t need his body to do some impressive things. It feels more like where football is going. He needs to get a game against a good power 5 school to really see if he’s not just beating up on high school teams but he’s so exciting to watch.

[maury77]

4 hours ago, kdels62 said:

It’s about Lawrence’s base. He has that long step and uses his body a lot but he relies on his form so much that when he has less room around his feet he skies the ball. It’s traditionally good form and the release is pretty but as we saw against LSU and Ohio State, if you disrupt his form you disrupt his accuracy. 

Wilson throws from different bases and arm angles and doesn’t need his body to do some impressive things. It feels more like where football is going. He needs to get a game against a good power 5 school to really see if he’s not just beating up on high school teams but he’s so exciting to watch.

To be fair, Wilson looks like he is about 6'1", so he doesn't need a lot of room to throw. It's different when you are 6'6". Think of baseball, its a lot easier for a shorter pitcher to repeat his mechanics than it is for a taller pitcher. 

[kdels62]

1 hour ago, maury77 said:

To be fair, Wilson looks like he is about 6'1", so he doesn't need a lot of room to throw. It's different when you are 6'6". Think of baseball, its a lot easier for a shorter pitcher to repeat his mechanics than it is for a taller pitcher. 

I don’t know sh*t about baseball... or football

[Guilhermezmc]

Im starting to doubt myself... 

I've been on Trevor bandwagon since his HS days but this Guy Zach Wilson is growing and growing on me every day. He's such a smooth passer and make all this specials throws that he's giving me some Russell Wilson/Mahomes kinda vibe. If the correct haul is presented for Trevor Lawrence, Wilson is now my only number two. 49ers seems like the perfect fit for Zach Wilson right now. But who knows? A BYU - UGA bowl game would be perfect to evaluate a guy like Wilson.

[kdels62]

1 hour ago, Guilhermezmc said:

Im starting to doubt myself... 

I've been on Trevor bandwagon since his HS days but this Guy Zach Wilson is growing and growing on me every day. He's such a smooth passer and make all this specials throws that he's giving me some Russell Wilson/Mahomes kinda vibe. If the correct haul is presented for Trevor Lawrence, Wilson is now my only number two. 49ers seems like the perfect fit for Zach Wilson right now. But who knows? A BYU - UGA bowl game would be perfect to evaluate a guy like Wilson.

Wilson’s talent is intoxicating. It looks smooth and dynamic. I just had to detox by watching a bunch of Trevor Lawrence and Justin Fields highlights. 

[maury77]

Zach Wilson

Listed at 6'3", 210lbs, but I have serious doubts. He looks closer to 6'1" with a small frame

He's got an easy, quick release

He's got pretty good mobility, comparable to Darnold

He's got better velocity on his throws than Lawrence or Fields. I don't know how because he is a relatively small guy, but he throws lasers out there. Even on the move, he throws ropes. 

Accurate to all levels of the field

You don't see it very often because he plays some bad defenses, but his accuracy really dips when he has pressure in his face. This is a big red flag and its consistent. 

A lot of throws to wide open guys

Decent processor, but you don't see a lot of full field scans

Has a habit of selling the play action fake to the wrong side, which is odd

He's dealt with a torn labrum already in both shoulders

He honestly reminds me a lot of a smaller Darnold. He's capable of making jaw dropping throws, especially on the run and he is mobile, but he crumbles in the pocket when there is pressure. I think he has a pretty high bust factor. 

 

[Dinamite]

13 hours ago, maury77 said:

Zach Wilson

Listed at 6'3", 210lbs, but I have serious doubts. He looks closer to 6'1" with a small frame

He's got an easy, quick release

He's got pretty good mobility, comparable to Darnold

He's got better velocity on his throws than Lawrence or Fields. I don't know how because he is a relatively small guy, but he throws lasers out there. Even on the move, he throws ropes. 

Accurate to all levels of the field

You don't see it very often because he plays some bad defenses, but his accuracy really dips when he has pressure in his face. This is a big red flag and its consistent. 

A lot of throws to wide open guys

Decent processor, but you don't see a lot of full field scans

Has a habit of selling the play action fake to the wrong side, which is odd

He's dealt with a torn labrum already in both shoulders

He honestly reminds me a lot of a smaller Darnold. He's capable of making jaw dropping throws, especially on the run and he is mobile, but he crumbles in the pocket when there is pressure. I think he has a pretty high bust factor. 

 

Thanks for the breakdown, so I take it you favor Fields over him then?

[maury77]

Thanks for the breakdown, so I take it you favor Fields over him then?

Thanks D. Yes, I prefer Fields, but I’m still praying for a Jaguars miracle.


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[JohnnyLV]

 

On 12/26/2020 at 1:07 AM, maury77 said:

Thanks D. Yes, I prefer Fields, but I’m still praying for a Jaguars miracle.


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Have to disagree with you here. I do agree that he has shown some struggles with rushes in his face, but that is literally his only knock and that will improve with coaching and experience.

He is my #1 QB by  a LOT. I think his bust potential is pretty much non existent.

He is the most impressive college football QB I have ever seen.

I have watched like 6-8 full game videos and all of them just seem to be highlight films.

He consistently throws PERFECT passes. His accuracy is completely off the charts., and to all parts of the field.

He has an absolute cannon.

His release is as fast as Rodgers.

He is very mobile.

He is aggressive and a gun slinger. He is incredibly dynamic. 

He is a hard worker, captain, leader and extremely football knowledgeable.

He has had as good of a year this year as Burrow did last year maybe better.

But literally with all that he is also incredibly good at protecting the ball. PFF has him at only like 4 interception worthy throws and 1 was a hail mary.

Lawrence is the golden boy. He has been awesome at QB literally since Pop Warner and absolutely a great prospect. But I have watched him live and on YT many times and to be honest he just never jumps out at me. He is surrounded by talent that will be elite at the NFL level. We will never get to consider TL so it won't matter.

I truly believe he will be the #1 QB from this draft.  He is FAR FAR more impressive than Darnold, it's not remotely close. Darnold threw a TON of interceptable balls and has always been suspect on throws down the field. He is fantastic outside of the pocket.

But in no way is he a better prospect than Wilson, who is also more experienced at the position.

I don't think I have ever been as sold on a player as I am with Wilson. I just hope that the Jets are smart enough to see it.

 

 

[maury77]

4 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

 
Have to disagree with you here. I do agree that he has shown some struggles with rushes in his face, but that is literally his only knock and that will improve with coaching and experience.
He is my #1 QB by  a LOT. I think his bust potential is pretty much non existent.
He is the most impressive college football QB I have ever seen.
I have watched like 6-8 full game videos and all of them just seem to be highlight films.
He consistently throws PERFECT passes. His accuracy is completely off the charts., and to all parts of the field.
He has an absolute cannon.
His release is as fast as Rodgers.
He is very mobile.
He is aggressive and a gun slinger. He is incredibly dynamic. 
He is a hard worker, captain, leader and extremely football knowledgeable.
He has had as good of a year this year as Burrow did last year maybe better.
But literally with all that he is also incredibly good at protecting the ball. PFF has him at only like 4 interception worthy throws and 1 was a hail mary.
Lawrence is the golden boy. He has been awesome at QB literally since Pop Warner and absolutely a great prospect. But I have watched him live and on YT many times and to be honest he just never jumps out at me. He is surrounded by talent that will be elite at the NFL level. We will never get to consider TL so it won't matter.
I truly believe he will be the #1 QB from this draft.  He is FAR FAR more impressive than Darnold, it's not remotely close. Darnold threw a TON of interceptable balls and has always been suspect on throws down the field. He is fantastic outside of the pocket.
But in no way is he a better prospect than Wilson, who is also more experienced at the position.
I don't think I have ever been as sold on a player as I am with Wilson. I just hope that the Jets are smart enough to see it.
 
 

That’s fine, it’s a message board, we can have different opinions. 


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[kdels62]

Zach Wilson’s improvement from a sophomore to a junior is impressive. This is why the Darnold comparisons don’t feel right. Wilson was doing hero ball as a sophomore and then as a junior he improved his reads and avoided the looping escape from pressure in favor of quick throws.

[Philc1]

Lance at 23 >>>> Fields at 2

 

Lance is a Colin Kaepernick clone (minus the political stuff ok relax)

[kdels62]

41 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Lance at 23 >>>> Fields at 2

 

Lance is a Colin Kaepernick clone (minus the political stuff ok relax)

Alijah Vera Tucker at 23 >>>> Penei Sewell at 2

[Philc1]

It’s a copycat league.  You saw all that QB draw stuff Allen did on Saturday.  Lance can do that too

 

[kdels62]

On 1/12/2021 at 3:45 PM, Philc1 said:

It’s a copycat league.  You saw all that QB draw stuff Allen did on Saturday.  Lance can do that too

 

I like Lance’s skill set but you’re taking about very few starts. Plus if someone buys into his skill set he’ll be gone way before 23, like the Vikings, 49ers, Panthers, Redskins picks.