Lawrence downfield accuracy

[Defense Wins Championships]

56 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Exactly - so both QB's have struggled against teams with close to or better talent then them - It debunks the whole generational talent BS. 

Look I've said multiple times I think both are quality QB's who can hopefully take it to the next level. Its the fanboys who want to hold onto the once in a lifetime prospect thing who are continuing this argument. 

He is a Generational QB prospect. 

There are only 2 QB prospects of All-time who've ever been Rated as the #1 player within the entire Country coming out of High School - before then being drafted #1 into the NFL;

John Elway and Peyton Manning (Trevor Lawrence will become only the 3rd, ever). 

He also became the first and only True Freshman QB to ever win an NCAA National Championship since dating back to 35 years ago of 1985 (the year I was born) STRAIGHT OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL. 

76-1 throughout his last 77 games dating back to H.S (35-1 @ Clemson with two National Championship Game appearances). 

He's a phenom and the definition of a GENERATIONAL QB PROSPECT. 

35-1 overall (.972%), 2 National Championship Game appearances, 662/995 (66.5%), 8,778 Passing Yards (8.8 yards per attempt), 83 TD's/14 INT's (5.92 TD-to-INT Ratio), 192 Rushing Attempts for 811 Rushing Yards (4.2 yards per run) and 14 Rushing TD's for a combined 9,589 offensive yards and 97 Offensive TD's along with a QB Rating of 165.4; and throughout only 2.5 years of play too...

Go ahead and try and beat that but by only using a players (true) first 2.5 years in the league ala 36 games (YOU CAN'T). 

 

[SAM SAM HE'S OUR MAN]

7 hours ago, Samtorobby47 said:

But can he read a blitz??

[JustInFudge]

2 hours ago, win4ever said:

I'm going to preface this by saying I love Fields.

I'm not sure I buy this statistic fully because that Clemson coaching seem to cater towards high point guys over route and speed guys. From Hopkins, Watkins (albeit he was a speed guy too), Williams, Higgins as the No. 1 guys. I'm wondering if the accuracy is off because it's more about giving your WR a chance than the perfect pass.

For example, a back shoulder pass is inaccurate if the WR doesn't adjust in time. Is that graded as accurate or inaccurate?

I like OSU's offensive system better, I think they push the ball down the field better than Clemson, but that's a systemic thing. They did the same with Haskins as well.

From what I watched this year, he seemed improved with his accuracy, but he's not a stud in this area.

With Fields, his deep passing game is better, but I worry about his reads on a play. He seems to have an easier system, which I'd love to import.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

This is a good call out but that's not every attempt.  Underthrowing a streaking WR, throwing behind on a slant, throwing high on in, all out missing sideline throws - not good next level attributes - all stuff easily seen on film.

Your last point, not sure how a system asking you to attempt more vertical passes is "easier"....TL throws more screens than probably any other college QB I watch.  So much of his game is behind or at the LOS and or first read type plays, I dont think that's harder than scanning the field and targeting guys vertically.

That said; the thing I think TL has displayed that Fields doesnt is the control/command at the LOS.  Fields still takes his cues from the sidelines and you rarely see him going hot for a quick read.  Fields is more prone to just run the play and evade pressure.   You do see that in TL's game, protection shifts, hot routes, etc.   Just a little more to handle at the LOS.  Once the ball is snapped?  Fields is just a better passer.

 

[68JET11]

I'll take someone who throws the ball as well as Hebert did yesterday.... If that's out there this draft then go for it, if not, then trade down and grab as much draft capital you can.

[TheMo]

9 hours ago, Defense Wins Championships said:

Doug Flutie, Vinny Testaverde, Andre Ware, Ty Detmer, Gino Torretta, Charlie Ward, Danny Wuerffel, Eric Crouch, Chris Weinke, Carson Palmer, Matt Leinart, Troy Smith, Tim Tebow (lol), Sam Bradford, Cam Newton, RG3, Johnny Manziel, Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota, Lamar Jackson and Baker Mayfield; COMPLETELY SAY OTHERWISE. 

You can keep your little "Heisman award winners' because any knowledge Football fan understands that...

Joe Namath. 

Johnny Unitas

Bart Starr. 

Terry Bradshaw. 

Joe Montana. 

Dan Marino. 

Jim Kelly. 

Troy Aikman. 

John Elway. 

Warren Moon. 

Steve Young. 

Brett Favre. 

Peyton Manning. 

_________________

Tom Brady. 

Drew Brees. 

Ben Roethlisberger. 

Aaron Rodgers. 

Russell Wilson. 

Deshaun Watson.

Dak Prescott. 

Patrick Mahomes. 

Have a whopping 0 (combined) "Heisman Trophy's"

PS: Your boy Fields has never and will never win a "Heisman" either. 

lol.

Have you ever just said to someone “you know you have a point, but I think XYZ which is why I see it differently” not everything had to be so black and white. You make discussions exhausting ever time you enter. For the record I’ve told @JiF a number of times why I prefer Lawrence. Yet I can appreciate what he sees in fields and I don’t think he’s dumb for thinking it. I’m sure you’ll ignore this but I urge you to consider it when you discuss stuff with people. 

[MichaelScott]

10 hours ago, David Harris said:

That stat is concerning to me.

With the loss to the chargers its getting hard to contain my mounting excitement of this ACTUALLY happening, getting Trevor Lawrence who I’ve been hearing about since he was in high school. 
 

still 6 games to go but I want this guy more than any other prospect ever and will be crushed with a Jets win. that stat gives me pause. 
 

Is this really going to happen- are we going to get Trevor Lawrence...holy sh*t, it really could
 

 

I feel like if we do get him it all but guarantees that he is a disappointment. Either by his own doing or by this franchise ruining him. It's just the Jet way. 

[MichaelScott]

10 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

We all know if Macc was here with the #1 pick it would be Lawrence without question, because that's what the media tells him.

But with JD let's see if a real evaluation takes place.  Lawrence and Fields will likely have closer evaluations than may people think.

Do the Jets take the best QB or the most popular one?  And yes, they could be the same person.  But last year's media buzz was all around Burrow and Tua, yet it looks like Herbert could be the best of the three.

I feel like that is most often the case these days.

[MichaelScott]

8 hours ago, Defense Wins Championships said:

You mean as a 5th year college student? Cool story, lol

PS: Trevor Lawrence became the first and only True Freshman QB to ever win a National Championship dating back to 35 years ago of 1985; STRAIGHT OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL. 

(76-1). 

Trevor Lawrence has been to two National Championship games in two years and will appear in his 3rd National Championship Game here in 2020 when in comparison to Justin Fields; who will never make it to a National Championship Game. 

Trevor Lawrence has been to two National Championship games in two years and will appear in his 3rd National Championship Game here in 2020;

when in comparison to Justin Fields; who will never make it to a National Championship Game. 

 

JN needs to install a roll eyes reaction just for this guy 

[Defense Wins Championships]

1 minute ago, MichaelScott said:

JN needs to install a roll eyes reaction just for this guy 

[Jet Life]

8 hours ago, Defense Wins Championships said:

So I guess we're never allowed to consider Patrick Mahomes as generational anymore, because of no "Heisman"? lol 

Joe Namath. 

Johnny Unitas

Bart Starr. 

Terry Bradshaw. 

Joe Montana. 

Dan Marino. 

Jim Kelly. 

Troy Aikman. 

John Elway. 

Warren Moon. 

Steve Young. 

Brett Favre. 

Peyton Manning. 

_________________

Tom Brady. 

Drew Brees. 

Ben Roethlisberger. 

Aaron Rodgers. 

Russell Wilson. 

Deshaun Watson.

Dak Prescott. 

Patrick Mahomes. 

0 Heisman's (COMBINED). 

Completely says otherwise (76-1). 

Hope you realize Justin Fields 247 Composite score was .9998 and he is 8th all-time. So if Trevor is generational by this metric, is Fields too? 

[David Harris]

1 hour ago, MichaelScott said:

I feel like if we do get him it all but guarantees that he is a disappointment. Either by his own doing or by this franchise ruining him. It's just the Jet way. 

50 years of evidence...but hope springs eternal.

People say Trevor looks like Jesus, if he hits that makes Joe Douglas God. We need a religious experience after all this spent faith.

[MichaelScott]

44 minutes ago, Defense Wins Championships said:

Dude, I apologize to the extent that I'm not trying to be a dick but you copy and paste the same essay length arguments in every single post you reply to. I've literally lost count of the number of times you've said TL accomplished something that hasn't been done (SINCE YOU WERE BORN)

Literally copying yourself word for word in the majority of your posts, dude. I respect the research you put into your posts but you're beyond redundant. We read your essays and screen shotted stats the 1st and 2nd time. The 3rd, 4th, and 5th time wasnt nessesary. 

[jgb]

8 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

Easy to say when he hasn't faced adversity in his college career . The one game where his team didn't have more talent they got beat pretty handily. How will he handle playing for the Jets where at least 2/3rds if not all other teams he plays against will have better talent. How will he handle the New York media labelling him the messiah day one and ripping him to shreds with every misstep.  Everyone is confident until they get punched in the face. 

Right so in the 1 and only college game Lawrence lost that’s the only one he “faced adversity”... because he lost lol 

[win4ever]

This is a good call out but that's not every attempt.  Underthrowing a streaking WR, throwing behind on a slant, throwing high on in, all out missing sideline throws - not good next level attributes - all stuff easily seen on film.
Your last point, not sure how a system asking you to attempt more vertical passes is "easier"....TL throws more screens than probably any other college QB I watch.  So much of his game is behind or at the LOS and or first read type plays, I dont think that's harder than scanning the field and targeting guys vertically.
That said; the thing I think TL has displayed that Fields doesnt is the control/command at the LOS.  Fields still takes his cues from the sidelines and you rarely see him going hot for a quick read.  Fields is more prone to just run the play and evade pressure.   You do see that in TL's game, protection shifts, hot routes, etc.   Just a little more to handle at the LOS.  Once the ball is snapped?  Fields is just a better passer.
 

There are concerns with his deep passes but I didn't see as many blatant misses this year. I see those "Your receivers make the play" type throws but I also don't see as much separation from these guys.

Well what I meant by easier reads is that Fields is running the spread concepts from Meyer, and it has the sideline calling plays that push it based on the defense. I see Fields adjusting making less reads because that system is easier in post snap reads. It's similar to the Air Raid, where it's basically just looking at one defender based on the adjustment, and then going with the read.

I really wish we could implement something similar to be honest. It doesn't translate quite as well to the NFL but something with simple reads.

The Clemson offense seems more complicated post snap, because the down field reads don't seem to be preferred. Just from my untrained eye and TV angles, it looks more like, read the defender, and pick down the field or dump off pass. Whereas OSU seems to go, read the defender and go from option A to B down field. Clemson doesn't seem as fine tuned with deep passes.

I really wish there was access to All 22 film, have no idea why colleges restrict it.

On a pure throw by throw basis, Fields has been considerably better with deep passes. However, I also feel like his receivers are far more open.

It'll be interesting to see if they make the playoffs. I really would like to see a matchup against good defenses.

[Defense Wins Championships]

7 hours ago, JiF said:

Your last point, not sure how a system asking you to attempt more vertical passes is "easier"....TL throws more screens than probably any other college QB I watch.  So much of his game is behind or at the LOS 

I've watch every FSU game on one TV with Clemson on the other when they play @ the same time dating back to our rivalry with Watson/Clemson and you're so full of absolute bull crap man it's not even funny. 

Stop trying to pretend and make people believe Trevor is some type of "screen" and behind the LOS type of QB prospect because now you're absolutely lying. 

2018 (True Freshman). 

2019 (below). 

2020 (below).

 

[Defense Wins Championships]

Clemson passes the football 54.6% of the time (18th most in the Country). 

Ohio State passes the football 40.9% of the time (103rd most in the Country). 

Something JiF won't tell you guys about when making up lies about Trevor and his "screen passes".  

 

[AFJF]

16 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

if we draft this guy and hes a bust.....im done...

I said the same exact thing about Darnold, yet here I am.

FML

[MichaelScott]

3 hours ago, win4ever said:

 

There are concerns with his deep passes but I didn't see as many blatant misses this year. I see those "Your receivers make the play" type throws but I also don't see as much separation from these guys.

Well what I meant by easier reads is that Fields is running the spread concepts from Meyer, and it has the sideline calling plays that push it based on the defense. I see Fields adjusting making less reads because that system is easier in post snap reads. It's similar to the Air Raid, where it's basically just looking at one defender based on the adjustment, and then going with the read.

I really wish we could implement something similar to be honest. It doesn't translate quite as well to the NFL but something with simple reads.

The Clemson offense seems more complicated post snap, because the down field reads don't seem to be preferred. Just from my untrained eye and TV angles, it looks more like, read the defender, and pick down the field or dump off pass. Whereas OSU seems to go, read the defender and go from option A to B down field. Clemson doesn't seem as fine tuned with deep passes.

I really wish there was access to All 22 film, have no idea why colleges restrict it.

On a pure throw by throw basis, Fields has been considerably better with deep passes. However, I also feel like his receivers are far more open.

It'll be interesting to see if they make the playoffs. I really would like to see a matchup against good defenses.

 

Great post. Love the analysis 

[MichaelScott]

10 hours ago, 68JET11 said:

I'll take someone who throws the ball as well as Hebert did yesterday.... If that's out there this draft then go for it, if not, then trade down and grab as much draft capital you can.

What bothers me is that there seems to be someone in each of the last drafts who shines like Herbert, but it's never the consensus top pick. The way the league has been with regards to rating QBs I almost have more faith that we would pick the best QB in the draft with the Sea pick

[kdels62]

10 hours ago, Defense Wins Championships said:

I've watch every FSU game on one TV with Clemson on the other when they play @ the same time dating back to our rivalry with Watson/Clemson and you're so full of absolute bull crap man it's not even funny. 

Stop trying to pretend and make people believe Trevor is some type of "screen" and behind the LOS type of QB prospect because now you're absolutely lying. 

2018 (True Freshman). 

2019 (below). 

2020 (below).

 

Lol. So you half watch Clemson games?

Lawrence has been better this year. He's getting bailed out less by his WRs and really moving his team with more impressive accuracy and arm strength. However, it is a fact that he throws the ball short a lot, there are numbers that back that up. His upward trajectory is impressive considering he was already so good. 

[Jet Nut]

On 11/23/2020 at 10:38 AM, JiF said:

Different era.  Other positions won the Heisman.  Now?  17 of the last 19 winners were QBs 

So Tebow and Manziel are top prospects and Luck, Manning etc arent?  Heisman has absolutely nothing to do with NFL success.  

[56mehl56]

10 hours ago, jgb said:

Right so in the 1 and only college game Lawrence lost that’s the only one he “faced adversity”... because he lost lol 

These highly rated kids most often play at the HS of their choice and then at the college of their choice. They are coddled from day 1 and given everything they need to succeed. They are the big man on campus and usually have tremendous team records in terms of W/L and are given all the platitudes and idolization that comes with being a star college athlete . They haven't had to face losing and all the negativity that surrounds it especially in the media cesspool of the tri-state area and from our bi-polar fanbase. 

Its why kids like Manziel, OBJ, Jamal Adams go off the rails when they don't get what they want and have to endure losing and poor personal statistics . Now I'm not saying Lawrence will definitely go that route if he's drafted by the Jets , but it has to be a concern. He has to be surrounded by a pretty good support staff to help him through the pitfalls , negativity and instant spotlight that is foisted upon them in the NFL. Will he get that from the Jets ?  I know I'll see multiple responses from the usual suspects saying are your kidding, he had to live out of a treehouse in kindergarten he's carried his peewee football team when the coach was arrested for selling PED's or other facietous and non pertinent crap like that . Bottom line we don't know how he will respond and that's the adversity I'm taking about.  Fields faces the same issues but he's more hardened by the changes in programs and losing a starting QB battle , similar to what Burrow went through at Ohio St. 

[jgb]

9 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

These highly rated kids most often play at the HS of their choice and then at the college of their choice. They are coddled from day 1 and given everything they need to succeed. They are the big man on campus and usually have tremendous team records in terms of W/L and are given all the platitudes and idolization that comes with being a star college athlete . They haven't had to face losing and all the negativity that surrounds it especially in the media cesspool of the tri-state area and from our bi-polar fanbase. 

Its why kids like Manziel, OBJ, Jamal Adams go off the rails when they don't get what they want and have to endure losing and poor personal statistics . Now I'm not saying Lawrence will definitely go that route if he's drafted by the Jets , but it has to be a concern. He has to be surrounded by a pretty good support staff to help him through the pitfalls , negativity and instant spotlight that is foisted upon them in the NFL. Will he get that from the Jets ?  I know I'll see multiple responses from the usual suspects saying are your kidding, he had to live out of a treehouse in kindergarten he's carried his peewee football team when the coach was arrested for selling PED's or other facietous and non pertinent crap like that . Bottom line we don't know how he will respond and that's the adversity I'm taking about.  Fields faces the same issues but he's more hardened by the changes in programs and losing a starting QB battle , similar to what Burrow went through at Ohio St. 

So the solution is what? Draft guys who have lost a ton in college, like Rosen?

[56mehl56]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

So the solution is what? Draft guys who have lost a ton in college, like Rosen?

All I'm saying that it's a concern ,not saying I wouldn't draft him because of it . Some players personalities don't seem to get effected by hype, media criticism and the pressure created from losing - the Manning's are two that are prime examples.  How Lawrence and Fields handle it is tbd. 

[jgb]

1 minute ago, 56mehl56 said:

All I'm saying that it's a concern ,not saying I wouldn't draft him because of it . Some players personalities don't seem to get effected by hype, media criticism and the pressure created from losing - the Manning's are two that are prime examples.  How Lawrence and Fields handle it is tbd. 

Ah gotcha. This is why evaluating QBs is one of the hardest things in sport.

[maury77]

We can admire both Lawrence and Fields without having to sh!t on 1 of them. That being said, I think we can all agree that Herbert has looked great this year (especially last weekend). Now picture Herbert with a more advanced understanding of the game and having been vetted on the national spotlight in title games since he was 18 years old. That's what you are getting with Lawrence. At the end of the day, Lawrence is just a superior physical specimen to Fields. 

[Defense Wins Championships]

16 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

All I'm saying that it's a concern ,not saying I wouldn't draft him because of it . Some players personalities don't seem to get effected by hype, media criticism and the pressure created from losing - the Manning's are two that are prime examples.  How Lawrence and Fields handle it is tbd. 

Exactly.

And that's why there are only two QB's who've ever been rated as the #1 H.S prospect coming out before not cracking under media pressure and the NCAA spotlight before going on to be selected #1 overall into the NFL; John Elway and Peyton Manning. 

Trevor Lawrence will (only) become the 3rd. 

[Defense Wins Championships]

7 minutes ago, maury77 said:

We can admire both Lawrence and Fields without having to sh!t on 1 of them. That being said, I think we can all agree that Herbert has looked great this year (especially last weekend). Now picture Herbert with a more advanced understanding of the game and having been vetted on the national spotlight in title games since he was 18 years old. That's what you are getting with Lawrence. At the end of the day, Lawrence is just a superior physical specimen to Fields. 

He's been in the spotlight since freaking MIDDLE SCHOOL!

And yes, his physical attributes are Patrick Mahomes like. While coming out of HS before Clemson he entered a skilled competition type of camp and in the long ball battle he threw the ball 72 yards in the air; that's absolutely nuts. 

Dabo loved him immediately too.

He's an absolute phenom.

[MichaelScott]

2 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

These highly rated kids most often play at the HS of their choice and then at the college of their choice. They are coddled from day 1 and given everything they need to succeed. They are the big man on campus and usually have tremendous team records in terms of W/L and are given all the platitudes and idolization that comes with being a star college athlete . They haven't had to face losing and all the negativity that surrounds it especially in the media cesspool of the tri-state area and from our bi-polar fanbase. 

Its why kids like Manziel, OBJ, Jamal Adams go off the rails when they don't get what they want and have to endure losing and poor personal statistics . Now I'm not saying Lawrence will definitely go that route if he's drafted by the Jets , but it has to be a concern. He has to be surrounded by a pretty good support staff to help him through the pitfalls , negativity and instant spotlight that is foisted upon them in the NFL. Will he get that from the Jets ?  I know I'll see multiple responses from the usual suspects saying are your kidding, he had to live out of a treehouse in kindergarten he's carried his peewee football team when the coach was arrested for selling PED's or other facietous and non pertinent crap like that . Bottom line we don't know how he will respond and that's the adversity I'm taking about.  Fields faces the same issues but he's more hardened by the changes in programs and losing a starting QB battle , similar to what Burrow went through at Ohio St. 

For what it's worth, he really did carry that peewee team of his against the much better coaches and better funded favorites that year 

[maury77]

@Defense Wins Championships just because I know you like this stuff, here is Lawrence in 8th grade:

 

 

[Defense Wins Championships]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

So Tebow and Manziel are top prospects and Luck, Manning etc arent?  Heisman has absolutely nothing to do with NFL success.  

He seems to believe that QBs such as Ty Detmer, Gino Torretta, Charlie Ward, Danny Wuerffel, Chris Weinke, Carson Palmer, Jason White, Matt Leinart, Troy Smith, Tim Tebow, Sam Bradford, Cam Newton, RG3, Johnny Manziel, Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota and Baker Mayfield are "GENERATIONAL" due to winning Heisman Trophy's lol it's laughable. 

And big deal about Joe Burrow winning one; the guy was a 5th year college student the year he won it...

[JustInFudge]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

So Tebow and Manziel are top prospects and Luck, Manning etc arent?  Heisman has absolutely nothing to do with NFL success.  

Never said it did but thanks for the input.

[Jet Nut]

1 minute ago, JiF said:

Never said it did but thanks for the input.

Implied.  You know what you said.  He isnt generational because he doesnt have a Heisman.  We got the meaning, so yeah you were clear

Want to point out how pointless the Heisman award is?  John Huarte won the 1964 Heisman, the year the whole world wanted Namath

[JustInFudge]

7 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Implied.  You know what you said.  He isnt generational because he doesnt have a Heisman.  We got the meaning, so yeah you were clear

Want to point out how pointless the Heisman award is?  John Huarte won the 1964 Heisman, the year the whole world wanted Namath

Excuse me, it was not implied one bit.  Frankly I'm insulted that you think someone like me who follows as much Football as I do with such an obvious extremely high Football IQ would even begin to think that the Heisman had an indication of college success.  It's rude and I would like you to apologize.

I used it as an example that generational TL hasnt even been considered the best QB in college Football (technically not even top 3) since he entered the NCAA.  

Now apologize. 

[Jet Nut]

15 minutes ago, JiF said:

Excuse me, it was not implied one bit.  Frankly I'm insulted that you think someone like me who follows as much Football as I do with such an obvious extremely high Football IQ would even begin to think that the Heisman had an indication of college success.  It's rude and I would like you to apologize.

I used it as an example that generational TL hasnt even been considered the best QB in college Football (technically not even top 3) since he entered the NCAA.  

Now apologize. 

I'm sorry you were just waisting time making the pointless argument that he cant be generational because he hasnt won a Heisman but it doesnt mean anything.  When none of the previous "generational" type QBs won Heismans 

You can apologize