What is funnier in this Panthers 1st day of mini camp article?

[genot]

24 minutes ago, jgb said:

When you have a historical failure rate of 99% for QBs who started their careers like Darnold, it's right to be confident.

I know where your coming from. I don't buy into. I don't buy into that statistical analysis. Each case of QB failure can be broken down a hundred different ways. Sam, especially. 

[jgb]

1 hour ago, genot said:

I know where your coming from. I don't buy into. I don't buy into that statistical analysis. Each case of QB failure can be broken down a hundred different ways. Sam, especially. 

You shouldn't be arguing against the math, what you should be arguing is that Sam does not belong in the group of early-career terrible QBs at all -- i.e., not against the percentage but that it's the wrong one to apply to him. That's your best angle. Unfortunately, basically all of the defenses of Sam have to do with his situation and nothing innate within himself that leads me to believe he is special or different from all the ones who came, sucked, and never improved before him. Therefore, the turnaround success rate of bottom-barrel QBs must apply without malice or favor.

[genot]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

You shouldn't be arguing against the math, what you should be arguing is that Sam does not belong in the group of early-career terrible QBs. That's your best angle. Unfortunately, basically all of the defenses of Sam have to do with his situation and nothing innate within himself that leads me to believe he is special or different from all the ones who came, sucked, and never improved before him. Therefore, the turnaround success rates of bottom-barrel QBs must apply without malice or favor.

Your point, really is my point. Sam faced a special set of circumstances here, that, to me made his situation much harder to evaluate with statistics, then most of the other QBs who flopped in the NFL. I said this before. His development as a QB, ended when Gase became HC. Because of that and the surrounding talent. He regressed. If Bates was there for those 3 years, we would have seen a much more sure minded QB.

[Doggin94it]

11 minutes ago, jgb said:

You shouldn't be arguing against the math, what you should be arguing is that Sam does not belong in the group of early-career terrible QBs at all. That's your best angle. Unfortunately, basically all of the defenses of Sam have to do with his situation and nothing innate within himself that leads me to believe he is special or different from all the ones who came, sucked, and never improved before him. Therefore, the turnaround success rates of bottom-barrel QBs must apply without malice or favor.

No. The best argument is Ryan Tannehill. Similar profile (switched to the QB position relatively late, sufficiently athletic), same developmental obstacles (Gase, terrible team, no weaponz or OL), and a terrific post-Gase trajectory. Of course, it's a sample size of 1, so draw no conclusions. But it's the closest comparable. Hope Sam has a similar outcome.

[Doggin94it]

16 hours ago, genot said:

Your cleverly skirting my point. Teams inquiring about Sam, considered the possibility that he could turn his career around, and trading for him was a risk worth taking. The fact that you don't think he can turn his career around, doesn't mean it's fact. 

That's ridiculous. Of course trading for him was potentially a "risk worth taking" given the discounted asking price and the possibility that context mattered to his struggles. So was trading for Josh Rosen the year after he was drafted. It still would be more surprising than not if he ends up more than a long-term backup, given his play to date.

[jgb]

6 minutes ago, Doggin94it said:

No. The best argument is Ryan Tannehill. Similar profile (switched to the QB position relatively late, sufficiently athletic), same developmental obstacles (Gase, terrible team, no weaponz or OL), and a terrific post-Gase trajectory. Of course, it's a sample size of 1, so draw no conclusions. But it's the closest comparable. Hope Sam has a similar outcome.

Ryan Tannehill is a horrible hope case for Darnold. If Darnold became the Miami version of Tannehill that would already be an extraordinary turnaround.

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, genot said:

What Sam was worth to San Fran or WFt is kinda a hard question to answer. They inquired about Sam, when Douglas still wasn't completely sure what he do, based on all the evaluations on Wilson. Those teams, moved on and decided on other options

Maybe.  But I highly doubt they were offering up high 2021 picks.  General interest from teams tells us little about what they were actually willing to part with.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, genot said:

I know where your coming from. I don't buy into. I don't buy into that statistical analysis. Each case of QB failure can be broken down a hundred different ways. Sam, especially. 

What I keep coming back to, and what no Darnold believer can account for, is that Flacco looked decent in the same set of circumstances while Darnold was horrific.  That cuts out a lot of the variables.

The only answer the apologist crowd has there is to rip on Flacco for not winning a game (laughable given the Jets went 2-14; it's only a "team game" when Darnold was under center, apparently) or they say "of course Flacco did better, he's a veteran QB!"  Failing to realize, of course, that by year 3, Darnold is a pretty seasoned veteran QB too, and should be far outplaying an immobile, one-foot-in-retirement Flacco by a wide margin.

We have nearly 40 starts under Darnold's belt, plus all his turnover-happy tape from his final year at USC, to make an evaluation.  That's more than enough to recognize that much/most of Darnold's failures are his own doing.  Certainly enough of his own doing to suggest it would require a pretty miraculous turnaround for him to become even a competent NFL starter after 3 terrible seasons in the pros. 

Slow processors like Darnold don't do well in the NFL.  Nor do inaccurate and turnover-prone QB's.  He checks all the "bust" boxes thru 3 seasons.  And he doesn't have the elite athleticism or arm to make up for his shortcomings.  He's a gunslinger without the arm or ability to extend plays.  He's a slightly more mobile Mark Sanchez, basically, but Sanchez was probably better.

[Jetsfan80]

45 minutes ago, Doggin94it said:

No. The best argument is Ryan Tannehill. Similar profile (switched to the QB position relatively late, sufficiently athletic), same developmental obstacles (Gase, terrible team, no weaponz or OL), and a terrific post-Gase trajectory. Of course, it's a sample size of 1, so draw no conclusions. But it's the closest comparable. Hope Sam has a similar outcome.

Darnold could only dream of putting up the numbers Tannehill did in his first 3 seasons.

[jgb]

10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

What I keep coming back to, and what no Darnold believer can account for, is that Flacco looked decent in the same set of circumstances while Darnold was horrific.  That cuts out a lot of the variables.

The only answer the crowd has is to rip on Flacco for not winning a game (laughable given the Jets went 2-14; it's only a "team game" when Darnold was under center, apparently) or they say "of course Flacco did better, he's a veteran QB!"  Failing to realize, of course, that by year 3, Darnold is a pretty seasoned veteran QB too, and should be far outplaying an immobile, one-foot-in-retirement Flacco by a wide margin.  

Their angle is that Flacco was already developed and thus couldn't be ruined by Gase. Then they move to Tannehill who was infinitely better in Miami than Darnold has been and never dipped below 93 passer rating and 64% completion with Gase as his HC.

And then again even if we were to grant the Tannehill-as-possible-proof-of-Darnold's-future argument we also must accept just how incredibly rare Tannehill's resurgence was while also considering all the QBs lost in the sands of time exactly because they never improved. The reason everyone knows Tannehill's story is because it is so incredibly unique. Almost no one (self back pat) saw it coming.

[BROOKLYN JET]

10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

What I keep coming back to, and what no Darnold believer can account for, is that Flacco looked decent in the same set of circumstances while Darnold was horrific.  That cuts out a lot of the variables.

The only answer the apologist crowd has there is to rip on Flacco for not winning a game (laughable given the Jets went 2-14; it's only a "team game" when Darnold was under center, apparently) or they say "of course Flacco did better, he's a veteran QB!"  Failing to realize, of course, that by year 3, Darnold is a pretty seasoned veteran QB too, and should be far outplaying an immobile, one-foot-in-retirement Flacco by a wide margin.

We have nearly 40 starts under Darnold's belt, plus all his turnover-happy tape from his final year at USC, to make an evaluation.  That's more than enough to recognize that much/most of Darnold's failures are his own doing.  Certainly enough of his own doing to suggest it would require a pretty miraculous turnaround for him to become even a competent NFL starter after 3 terrible seasons in the pros. 

Slow processors like Darnold don't do well in the NFL.  Nor do inaccurate and turnover-prone QB's.  He checks all the "bust" boxes thru 3 seasons.  And he doesn't have the elite athleticism or arm to make up for his shortcomings.  He's a gunslinger without the arm or ability to extend plays.  He's a slightly more mobile Mark Sanchez, basically, but Sanchez was probably better.

Everybody knows it takes four years to overcome mono!

[Jetsfan80]

47 minutes ago, genot said:

Your point, really is my point. Sam faced a special set of circumstances here, that, to me made his situation much harder to evaluate with statistics, then most of the other QBs who flopped in the NFL. I said this before. His development as a QB, ended when Gase became HC. Because of that and the surrounding talent. He regressed. If Bates was there for those 3 years, we would have seen a much more sure minded QB.

We've talked about his circumstances ad nauseum.  Can you give me 2-3 characteristics about Darnold himself that suggest a turnaround is coming in year 4?  Because even if you're right that he had no hope of succeeding here, he still needs to have actual QB abilities to make that happen and end up a top 20 or so QB.  

And while you say he "regressed" from Bates to Gase, he was still the bottom-ranked QB in the NFL in all 3 of his NFL seasons.  He didn't go from QB20 to QB36.  He went from QB32 to QB36.  

[slats]

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

What I keep coming back to, and what no Darnold believer can account for, is that Flacco looked decent in the same set of circumstances while Darnold was horrific.  That cuts out a lot of the variables.

He had one good game against NE, that was it. He had a passer rating of 80 last year to Darnold’s 72. He completed 55% of his passes. That’s hardly decent vs horrific but, by all means, please overstate your case. 

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, slats said:

He had one good game against NE, that was it. He had a passer rating of 80 last year to Darnold’s 72. He completed 55% of his passes. That’s hardly decent vs horrific but, by all means, please overstate your case. 

1 > 0.

He only had 2 games to play in so what more did you want out of a guy who clearly didn't want to be on the field?

Meanwhile, you're ignoring the part about the OL and WR's looking better with Flacco than with Darnold.  I seem to recall quite a few posters on JN watching Flacco throw a few solid deep balls to Mims and Perriman, and fans saying they "couldn't wait" to see Darnold with that WR trio.

Then Darnold happened. 

It shouldn't have even been debatable.  Darnold was supposed to outperform Flacco by a lot last season.  He didn't.  He performed worse.  And that's pretty pathetic.

[Joe W. Namath]

Are there even any Darnold truthers left?  I think they all went to the panthers board.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Are there even any Darnold truthers left?  I think they all went to the panthers board.

Wait for the 1-2 times next season where Darnold resembles a passable, not atrocious QB and they'll come out like earthworms after rain.

[pointman]

14 hours ago, jgb said:

It was probably meant as satire but I actually agree with him. Sam is LUCKY to have been on a terrible Jets team. That “poor little Sammy” narrative convinced Carolina to foolishly trigger his 5th year option for $20M. If Sam spent the last 3 seasons anywhere else, he’d be on the Rosen/Trubisky pathway now. A backup somewhere having to prove himself. That $20M he is now guaranteed will probably represent like 80% of his future earnings in the sport.

Trubisky? HAHAHA! 

 

Sam WISHES he was as good as Trubisky, and Trubisky SUUUUUCKS. I wonder who will be out of the league first. Bet Sam's sweating that too. 

[jgb]

Just now, pointman said:

Trubisky? HAHAHA! 

 

Sam WISHES he was as good as Trubisky, and Trubisky SUUUUUCKS. I wonder who will be out of the league first. Bet Sam's sweating that too. 

Trubisky is leagues better than Darnold. There is no rational universe where Sam is handed a starting role and Trubisky has to earn it.

[Jetsfan80]

7 minutes ago, jgb said:

Trubisky is leagues better than Darnold. There is no rational universe where Sam is handed a starting role and Trubisky has to earn it.

It's very strange.  I have to think people treat Trubisky harsher, somehow, because he wasn't Mahomes or Watson.  Because of that and the Jets being a bigger dumpster fire than Chicago, Sweet Sammy gets a pass and $20M+ in 2022 while Trubisky is a cheap QB2.

Sometimes life just isn't fair, I suppose!  

[jgb]

11 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It's very strange.  I have to think people treat Trubisky harsher, somehow, because he wasn't Mahomes or Watson.  Because of that and the Jets being a bigger dumpster fire than Chicago, Sweet Sammy gets a pass and $20M+ in 2022 while Trubisky is a cheap QB2.

Sometimes life just isn't fair, I suppose!  

By every account Trubisky is also a hard worker, puts his all into practice, and is a model locker room guy. It is very strange, indeed.

The difference I suppose is the "Trubisky held Chicago back" while "The Jets held Darnold back" narratives have become zeitgeist.

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Doggin94it said:

No. The best argument is Ryan Tannehill. Similar profile (switched to the QB position relatively late, sufficiently athletic), same developmental obstacles (Gase, terrible team, no weaponz or OL), and a terrific post-Gase trajectory. Of course, it's a sample size of 1, so draw no conclusions. But it's the closest comparable. Hope Sam has a similar outcome.

And also, Darnold isn't even the most like Tannehill of the current QB reclamation projects. That would be one Mitch Trubisky.

[pointman]

25 minutes ago, jgb said:

Trubisky is leagues better than Darnold. There is no rational universe where Sam is handed a starting role and Trubisky has to earn it.

I was about to say how us great minds think alike but realistically anyone who walks upright thinks this. Bet Sam's dad is even onboard with us.

[pointman]

20 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It's very strange.  I have to think people treat Trubisky harsher, somehow, because he wasn't Mahomes or Watson.  Because of that and the Jets being a bigger dumpster fire than Chicago, Sweet Sammy gets a pass and $20M+ in 2022 while Trubisky is a cheap QB2.

Sometimes life just isn't fair, I suppose!  

Maybe Mitch turning 27 soon and Sam having just turned 24 has to do with it. Don't work. Whats fair is headed Sam's way, SOON.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, pointman said:

Maybe Mitch turning 27 soon and Sam having just turned 24 has to do with it. Don't work. Whats fair is headed Sam's way, SOON.

That is a very good point. On the same token though, Darnold defenders should stop using Tannehill because he was 30 when he went to TENN.

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, pointman said:

Maybe Mitch turning 27 soon and Sam having just turned 24 has to do with it. Don't work. Whats fair is headed Sam's way, SOON.

And FYI Sam already won. $20M guaranteed for 2022. Unless he loses it all in a ponzi scheme, he beat the house.

[Jackie Treehorn]

The Panthers better assemble the best team of shrinks there is to be found in Carolina. Sam has been through some ruff sh!t. 

[genot]

2 hours ago, Doggin94it said:

That's ridiculous. Of course trading for him was potentially a "risk worth taking" given the discounted asking price and the possibility that context mattered to his struggles. So was trading for Josh Rosen the year after he was drafted. It still would be more surprising than not if he ends up more than a long-term backup, given his play to date.

Josh Rosen is a statue. A pocket passer, with a bad attitude. Darnold has much more varied skills, and a team approach attitude. Hitching your wagon to Sam is a lot less of a risk, than hitching it to Rosen

[genot]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

We've talked about his circumstances ad nauseum.  Can you give me 2-3 characteristics about Darnold himself that suggest a turnaround is coming in year 4?  Because even if you're right that he had no hope of succeeding here, he still needs to have actual QB abilities to make that happen and end up a top 20 or so QB.  

And while you say he "regressed" from Bates to Gase, he was still the bottom-ranked QB in the NFL in all 3 of his NFL seasons.  He didn't go from QB20 to QB36.  He went from QB32 to QB36.  

He was a 20 year old rookie. Most everybody on this board was exited to have him after his rookie year. We all talked about, what we need to do to elevate his game and the offense. Weapons, better oline. We failed to do neither. Plus we gave him Gase. 

[Jetsfan80]

29 minutes ago, genot said:

He was a 20 year old rookie. Most everybody on this board was exited to have him after his rookie year. We all talked about, what we need to do to elevate his game and the offense. Weapons, better oline. We failed to do neither. Plus we gave him Gase. 

So you can't give me 2-3 characteristics about Darnold that suggest a turnaround is coming?

[Jetsfan80]

37 minutes ago, genot said:

Josh Rosen is a statue. A pocket passer, with a bad attitude. Darnold has much more varied skills, and a team approach attitude. Hitching your wagon to Sam is a lot less of a risk, than hitching it to Rosen

Yet Darnold garnered no more assets in his trade than Rosen did.  Granted, Rosen had 3-4 years left on his rookie deal when he was moved.  But still, the trades were comparable even with this supposedly far greater potential that Darnold carries compared to Rosen.

[genot]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So you can't give me 2-3 characteristics about Darnold that suggest a turnaround is coming?

His ability to sense pressure and make plays. Not consistently, but it's very evident. Even last year, Donald was constantly in the backfield, and Sam managed to avoid the pressure and make some plays. He has a very good arm and a quick release. He has a linebacker mentality. Up to now, it,s been a detriment. In the right situation, it could become an asset

[SouthernJet]

17 minutes ago, genot said:

His ability to sense pressure and make plays. Not consistently, but it's very evident. Even last year, Donald was constantly in the backfield, and Sam managed to avoid the pressure and make some plays. He has a very good arm and a quick release. He has a linebacker mentality. Up to now, it,s been a detriment. In the right situation, it could become an asset

sadly he hgets brain freeze as he did at USC. He throws off back foot too much and he doesnt lead his WRs to enhance YAK. I think he showed low IQ by several times not tossing ball out of bounds when 10 yards behind LOS and literally being chased out of bounds. 

He needs perfect system and maybe Carolina provides that,,we will see...

[genot]

32 minutes ago, SouthernJet said:

sadly he hgets brain freeze as he did at USC. He throws off back foot too much and he doesnt lead his WRs to enhance YAK. I think he showed low IQ by several times not tossing ball out of bounds when 10 yards behind LOS and literally being chased out of bounds. 

He needs perfect system and maybe Carolina provides that,,we will see...

He needs receivers that he can build chemistry with. The only receiver he had chemistry with was Crowder. Anderson was hamstrung here, only running a few different routes. Sam will be in heaven with his receivers in Carolina. Would be in heaven here too. Douglas didn't want Wilson to go through the same shi. Darnold went through. He thankfully rebuilt the WR core.

[ZachEY]

16 hours ago, genot said:

I don't for the life of me understand why it's so hard to admit that he could turn it around. To the point of assigning percentages on his chances. 

Is this really your hill?

Of course there's a chance Sam Darnold could turn it around.  There's a chance that he could be the NFL's best QB next year.

There's also a chance I win the Mega Millions, but I think we can all agree that my $5 is almost certainly a waste.

[jgb]

2 hours ago, genot said:

Most everybody on this board was exited to have him after his rookie year.

What’s that got to do (got to do) with it?