All Zach Wilson throws vs Jax

[ZachEY]

On 12/27/2021 at 12:58 AM, Sperm Edwards said:

He played fine; your comments give the impression he was garbage.

Today isn’t his whole rookie season. Today was today. He played with a bunch of backup receivers and a conservative gameplan that got that much more conservative with all the rushing (and defense and special teams) yards.

It’s silly to complain about passing yardage stats. There were ~200 Wilson yards not ~100 Wilson yards, as though those extra ground yards & TD were courtesy of someone else. So, you’re still doing it, like you want to count dropped interceptions but not dropped passes (even when drive-ending) as though he was the cause.

It’s been depressing watching him for most of the season, but today is a silly game to be displaying such venom & seeking out conflict to champion that causes. He was mostly efficient with only backup receivers, he got out of some bad trouble & turned them into big gainers, and they won despite still fielding a terrible defense and the HC+K deleting 7 points outright.

To read your posts after today’s game you’d think he was 9 of 30 with 0 TDs and 3+ turnovers and the Jets lost by 4 TDs.

My perspective, and I can’t speak for 80, is that the negativity about this game is more in response to a handful of people in the game thread, and perhaps beyond, acting like this game was some kind of watershed moment for Wilson.  In reality, as I think you agree, it was an adequate performance against a terrible team.

We play the #9 and the #3 defenses in points against, coming up.  I suspect things will look different than they did against #27.

Still, he’ll 100% get his 4th Pepsi Rookie of the Week for this performance, so that’s something the haters can never take away.

[T0mShane]

14 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Was that the same guy that feted the 3 pass masterpiece by Mac Jones?

I don’t follow compromised Aussie news sources

[Peace Frog]

2 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

  In reality, as I think you agree, it was an adequate performance against a terrible team.

We play the #9 and the #3 defenses in points against, coming up.  I suspect things will look different than they did against #27.

Concur.

2 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

 

Still, he’ll 100% get his 4th Pepsi Rookie of the Week for this performance, so that’s something the haters can never take away.

Well, that was an unecessarily gratuitous dig.

[Patriot Killa]

53 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

What in the world are you talking about. Darnold lost to Green Bay and at least half the board was anointing him a top 5 QB based on that performance.

I remember that as well, but what exactly it does that have to do with Wilson having a game that Darnold never had in his rookie season. This was a gritty performance where the kid displayed growth, good decision making and got the W on top of it 

[Patriot Killa]

33 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Concur.

Well, that was an unecessarily gratuitous dig.

As we’ve come to expect from the guys who just call as they see it. woof, deadly straight shooters those guys are.

[ZachEY]

30 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Concur.

Well, that was an unecessarily gratuitous dig.

On the contrary, I think it's funny what #JetsTwitter is doing with this silly award.

Anyway, care to revisit your stance that it's not #JetsTwitter doing their thing when we're about to get our 6th award, winning every single week a Jet was eligible?

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, Patriot Killa said:

I remember that as well, but what exactly it does that have to do with Wilson having a game that Darnold never had in his rookie season. This was a gritty performance where the kid displayed growth, good decision making and got the W on top of it 

Darnold had better games than this.  If you want to isolate the circumstances so that it's exactly the game Wilson had, sure, probably hard to find an exact replica.  But, we saw much better from Sam Darnold, who was trash, in year one.

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, Patriot Killa said:

As we’ve come to expect from the guys who just call as they see it. woof, deadly straight shooters those guys are.

If you need to attack me making a joke about the Pepsi Rookie of the Week award as your best shot to undermine my credibility, it seems like I remain on pretty solid ground.

[Peace Frog]

Just now, ZachEY said:

On the contrary, I think it's funny what #JetsTwitter is doing with this silly award.

Anyway, care to revisit your stance that it's not #JetsTwitter doing their thing when we're about to get our 6th award, winning every single week a Jet was eligible?

Ahhh, Davis Mills just won it, as he should have.

Man those Texans have a HUGE twitter following.

Jammar Chase and Asante Samuel have HUGE fanbases voting for them TWICE and THRICE too.  

Lol.

[Patriot Killa]

Just now, ZachEY said:

Darnold had better games than this.  If you want to isolate the circumstances so that it's exactly the game Wilson had, sure, probably hard to find an exact replica.  But, we saw much better from Sam Darnold, who was trash, in year one.

I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t believe Darnold ever showed any growth from week 1 to week 16. He had a moment where he looked already amidst the awful OL he played behind, but as far as between the ears, Wilson actually seems to have had some progression there. You can point to a rookie Darnold performance or two and compare it to Wilson, Wilson has shown the ability to adjust and not turn the ball over.

[Patriot Killa]

2 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

If you need to attack me making a joke about the Pepsi Rookie of the Week award as your best shot to undermine my credibility, it seems like I remain on pretty solid ground.

Was not attacking you. Was poking fun at 80.

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, Peace Frog said:

Ahhh, Davis Mills just won it, as he should have.

Man those Texans have a HUGE twitter following.

Jammar Chase and Asante Samuel have HUGE fanbases voting for them TWICE and THRICE too.  

Lol.

Davis Mills currently has 1% of the vote for last week, and voting is still open.

Zach has 69% of it.

Again, every single time a Jet has been eligible, that Jet has won.  At this point, hard for me to tell if you just don't get it, or are being purposefully obtuse.

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, Patriot Killa said:

Was not attacking you. Was poking fun at 80.

Tough to see that, as you were responding to someone responding to my comment.

[Patriot Killa]

Just now, ZachEY said:

Again, every single time a Jet has been eligible, that Jet has won.  At this point, hard for me to tell if you just don't get it, or are being purposefully obtuse.

It’s most definitely fan voted and doesn’t mean much , but MC did get snubbed.

[Peace Frog]

12 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Davis Mills currently has 1% of the vote for last week, and voting is still open.

Zach has 69% of it.

Again, every single time a Jet has been eligible, that Jet has won.  At this point, hard for me to tell if you just don't get it, or are being purposefully obtuse.

Well, in this instance I may be obtuse.  Thought he already won it.  Having said that, Zach deservd his "wins" as dumb as the award is and the fact that a Bengal and a Charger has won it multiple times says different.

[ZachEY]

2 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t believe Darnold ever showed any growth from week 1 to week 16. He had a moment where he looked already amidst the awful OL he played behind, but as far as between the ears, Wilson actually seems to have had some progression there. You can point to a rookie Darnold performance or two and compare it to Wilson, Wilson has shown the ability to adjust and not turn the ball over.

Maybe you didn't... But, the prevailing narrative on this website was that after injury and time to 'sit and learn' Darnold came back and was very good, showing promise to be a top QB the following year.  That was absolutely what most subscribed to.  Then Buffalo happened, and those that believed big things were ahead split into those that blamed mono for his performance, and those who felt he didn't take the step forward that was expected.  When he returned, those still believing in him pointed to the record and the improvement over Falk.  Others support continued to wane.  Year 3 came along, and those who remained were firmly in the "it's all Adam Gase's fault" camp.

[Patriot Killa]

10 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Tough to see that, as you were responding to someone responding to my comment.

Yeah I see where that was confusing. Trust, if I had something to say to you or about you, it wouldn’t be hard to type it out directly to you.

[Hal N of Provo]

15 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Ahhh, Davis Mills just won it, as he should have.

Man those Texans have a HUGE twitter following.

Jammar Chase and Asante Samuel have HUGE fanbases voting for them TWICE and THRICE too.  

Lol.

Where are you seeing this?  It shows Zach at 69% of the vote.   Are they ignoring the will of the people? Lol

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, Peace Frog said:

Well, in this instance I may be obtuse.  Thought he already won it.  Having said that, Zach deservd his "wins" as dumb as the award is and the fact that a Bengal and a Chrger has won it multiple times says different.

I don't know how else to explain it.  When there's a Jet up there, JetsTwitter promotes the sh*t out of this thing.  It's not a competition of the biggest fanbase.  It's about a huge influx of votes any time a Jet is present.  Other teams fans aren't doing this, at least to the same degree.  #JetsTwitter is a real thing - even the Jets official account acknowledges this.  It's silly.  It's stupid.  It's pretty funny.  But, if you really think it's something different than that, consider that this week, there are 6 nominees and Wilson has just under 70% of the total vote right now.  Even if you actually believe he was the best rookie of the week, that is absurd without a large group of people putting their finger on the button - and, it's worth noting you can vote as many times as you like.  Chase, for what it's worth, has 22%.  So, the other 4 guys make up 8% of the vote.

[Peace Frog]

2 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Where are you seeing this?  It shows Zach at 69% of the vote.   Are they ignoring the will of the people? Lol

I was told there was no math on this test. 

[Peace Frog]

Just now, ZachEY said:

I don't know how else to explain it.  When there's a Jet up there, JetsTwitter promotes the sh*t out of this thing.  It's not a competition of the biggest fanbase.  It's about a huge influx of votes any time a Jet is present.  Other teams fans aren't doing this, at least to the same degree.  #JetsTwitter is a real thing - even the Jets official account acknowledges this.  It's silly.  It's stupid.  It's pretty funny.  But, if you really think it's something different than that, consider that this week, there are 6 nominees and Wilson has just under 70% of the total vote right now.  Even if you actually believe he was the best rookie of the week, that is absurd without a large group of people putting their finger on the button - and, it's worth noting you can vote as many times as you like.  Chase, for what it's worth, has 22%.  So, the other 4 guys make up 8% of the vote.

I will allow this. 

[HawkeyeJet]

58 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

My perspective, and I can’t speak for 80, is that the negativity about this game is more in response to a handful of people in the game thread, and perhaps beyond, acting like this game was some kind of watershed moment for Wilson.  In reality, as I think you agree, it was an adequate performance against a terrible team.

We play the #9 and the #3 defenses in points against, coming up.  I suspect things will look different than they did against #27.

Still, he’ll 100% get his 4th Pepsi Rookie of the Week for this performance, so that’s something the haters can never take away.

One thing I would be curious about is whether you and @Jetsfan80 would agree/disagree with this:

Wilson has shown improvement over the course of the season.

Maybe you commented on it before if so my bad.  If you do, do you consider it marginal, significant, somewhere in between? I ask because I think both of you are generally fair even if I think you may skew a bit more negatively than I do.

The reason I ask is I think sometimes the conversation ends up focusing on a particular performance being good vs bad on both sides of the debate. The thing I don’t particularly like about viewing it in those exact terms is it fails to recognize/account for if he’s growing, which is really the important thing.  

I think the general consensus in say July was he needed lots of seasoning.  He needed time. So his starting point may not be the same as say Lawrence or Jones.  Probably closer to Fields in terms of perceived adjustments needed at this level.

So I think the most important question is not did he play bad/good/ok today, it’s how much better is he now than September.  I’d say he’s considerably better.  He hasn’t made improvements by leaps and bounds, but I do think he has improved considerably in decision making and improved incrementally in poise and recognition. 

Do you think he has improved?  

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

20 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t believe Darnold ever showed any growth from week 1 to week 16. He had a moment where he looked already amidst the awful OL he played behind, but as far as between the ears, Wilson actually seems to have had some progression there. You can point to a rookie Darnold performance or two and compare it to Wilson, Wilson has shown the ability to adjust and not turn the ball over.

Wilson is super smart and you’re starting to see that he can “think on his feet”.

Couple that was the physical attributes that are outstanding, the Arm everyone knows about, the wheels and the Roger Staubach-like escape from 5 Miami defenders and then turning the play positive pretty much shocked me.

Just way way too early for anyone who has tried to write him off.

Now if he takes a beating in the last 2 games against 2 of the highest rated D’s in the league the haters will will chime in again, but I think Wilson has shown lots of resilience in his rookie year and is definitely progressing, which will of course make the off season way more exciting.

[ZachEY]

12 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

I will allow this. 

FYI, I didn't make this... LOL.

[Peace Frog]

5 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

FYI, I didn't make this... LOL.

Now you’re just being mean.  

[ZachEY]

25 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

One thing I would be curious about is whether you and @Jetsfan80 would agree/disagree with this:

Wilson has shown improvement over the course of the season.

Maybe you commented on it before if so my bad.  If you do, do you consider it marginal, significant, somewhere in between? I ask because I think both of you are generally fair even if I think you may skew a bit more negatively than I do.

The reason I ask is I think sometimes the conversation ends up focusing on a particular performance being good vs bad on both sides of the debate. The thing I don’t particularly like about viewing it in those exact terms is it fails to recognize/account for if he’s growing, which is really the important thing.  

I think the general consensus in say July was he needed lots of seasoning.  He needed time. So his starting point may not be the same as say Lawrence or Jones.  Probably closer to Fields in terms of perceived adjustments needed at this level.

So I think the most important question is not did he play bad/good/ok today, it’s how much better is he now than September.  I’d say he’s considerably better.  He hasn’t made improvements by leaps and bounds, but I do think he has improved considerably in decision making and improved incrementally in poise and recognition. 

Do you think he has improved?  

This is a very fair question that I don't have a great answer for... I think if there is improvement, it's marginal and the sample size is too small to be meaningful, especially when you're talking about going from objectively terrible to, at best, not very good.

I am struggling with the notion that he's improved.  I can see how to some it looks that way, but I think the coaching staff has completely throttled him down.  Do you disagree?  I agree with a lot of what @T0mShane has been saying here and elsewhere.  It seems clear to me that the coaching staff doesn't have much faith in him, and isn't giving him a ton to do.  It sure looks to me like they're trying to hide him, and that's working as far as eliminating the back breaking plays we saw earlier.  But, again, is that because they've put a leash on him, or because he's learning something?  It looks to me like he went from terrible to unproductive, and I'm not sure that's not more lateral than upwards.

My biggest concern with him, as far as for the long term, is ball placement.  He sprays the ball everywhere, and even his good plays typically require more from the WR than they should.  I don't really see much in the way of improvement there.  He's gotten hurt by his share of drops, yes, but he throws an extremely uncatchable ball.  I likened it to Kellen Clemens.  I think his accuracy really sucks.  Also, I'm really not sure I'm seeing the 'improvement in the pocket' that others are claiming.  He's still bailing too soon, his footwork hasn't been impressive, and frankly, I'm willing to give him a pass on a lot of this, as I think it's coachable, but I won't say I've seen it get meaningfully better.

Another challenge I have is that we haven't seen a single game where there was a 60 minute quality QB performance (or even close).  This was a frequent concern of mine with Darnold.  So, that's why I struggle to see any meaningful improvement over time.  Fans see a great drive and hang their hat on that, when I think that it's the outlier until you prove it's replicable.  I think @JiFapono had the post of the thread here re: what this performance means individually and in terms of improvement and I agree with every word he said.  I also haven't seen anything, in any of his recent performances, to make me feel good about him vs. the Bucs or Bills, and can anyone say they'd be surprised if he's anything short of terrible in those games?  If you wouldn't be surprised, it's hard to really solidify any notion of "improvement."

[HawkeyeJet]

7 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

This is a very fair question that I don't have a great answer for... I think if there is improvement, it's marginal and the sample size is too small to be meaningful, especially when you're talking about going from objectively terrible to, at best, not very good.

I am struggling with the notion that he's improved.  I can see how to some it looks that way, but I think the coaching staff has completely throttled him down.  Do you disagree?  I agree with a lot of what @T0mShane has been saying here and elsewhere.  It seems clear to me that the coaching staff doesn't have much faith in him, and isn't giving him a ton to do.  It sure looks to me like they're trying to hide him, and that's working as far as eliminating the back breaking plays we saw earlier.  But, again, is that because they've put a leash on him, or because he's learning something?  It looks to me like he went from terrible to unproductive, and I'm not sure that's not more lateral than upwards.

My biggest concern with him, as far as for the long term, is ball placement.  He sprays the ball everywhere, and even his good plays typically require more from the WR than they should.  I don't really see much in the way of improvement there.  He's gotten hurt by his share of drops, yes, but he throws an extremely uncatchable ball.  I likened it to Kellen Clemens.  I think his accuracy really sucks.  Also, I'm really not sure I'm seeing the 'improvement in the pocket' that others are claiming.  He's still bailing too soon, his footwork hasn't been impressive, and frankly, I'm willing to give him a pass on a lot of this, as I think it's coachable, but I won't say I've seen it get meaningfully better.

Another challenge I have is that we haven't seen a single game where there was a 60 minute quality QB performance.  This was a frequent concern of mine with Darnold.  So, that's why I struggle to see any meaningful improvement over time.  Fans see a great drive and hang their hat on that, when I think that it's the outlier until you prove it's replicable.  I think @JiFapono had the post of the thread here re: what this performance means individually and in terms of improvement and I agree with every word he said.  I also haven't seen anything, in any of his recent performances, to make me feel good about him vs. the Bucs or Bills, and can anyone say they'd be surprised if he's anything short of terrible in those games?  If you wouldn't be surprised, it's hard to really solidify any notion of "improvement."

That’s a great post.

I can understand the viewpoint of putting it all together for that one great game.  I would love to see that too. 

The biggest unknown for me, and the one that would help me form my opinion the most is the question you asked about the coaches throttling things back.  I don’t know if that’s the case.  It certainly could be.  It could be a lack of confidence in him.  However, I have seen first hand, in practices and film sessions, coaches legitimately drill in that type of conservative play as the first step of QB grooming.  I do not believe nor agree with it, but I know that some coaches do believe in it. Tear down all of the traits that are deemed risky, and build back up with the idea of avoiding mistakes is the most important thing a QB does.  So I don’t know if the coaches don’t have confidence in him or they truly believe ultra conservative play for a young QB is the proper first building block. 

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, slimjasi said:

If the goal was to have the best rookie season, this would be a profound point. 

You're right, the goal is for the rookie QB to play bad.  

[Patriot Killa]

1 hour ago, ZachEY said:

This is a very fair question that I don't have a great answer for... I think if there is improvement, it's marginal and the sample size is too small to be meaningful, especially when you're talking about going from objectively terrible to, at best, not very good.

I am struggling with the notion that he's improved.  I can see how to some it looks that way, but I think the coaching staff has completely throttled him down.  Do you disagree?  I agree with a lot of what @T0mShane has been saying here and elsewhere.  It seems clear to me that the coaching staff doesn't have much faith in him, and isn't giving him a ton to do.  It sure looks to me like they're trying to hide him, and that's working as far as eliminating the back breaking plays we saw earlier.  But, again, is that because they've put a leash on him, or because he's learning something?  It looks to me like he went from terrible to unproductive, and I'm not sure that's not more lateral than upwards.

My biggest concern with him, as far as for the long term, is ball placement.  He sprays the ball everywhere, and even his good plays typically require more from the WR than they should.  I don't really see much in the way of improvement there.  He's gotten hurt by his share of drops, yes, but he throws an extremely uncatchable ball.  I likened it to Kellen Clemens.  I think his accuracy really sucks.  Also, I'm really not sure I'm seeing the 'improvement in the pocket' that others are claiming.  He's still bailing too soon, his footwork hasn't been impressive, and frankly, I'm willing to give him a pass on a lot of this, as I think it's coachable, but I won't say I've seen it get meaningfully better.

Another challenge I have is that we haven't seen a single game where there was a 60 minute quality QB performance (or even close).  This was a frequent concern of mine with Darnold.  So, that's why I struggle to see any meaningful improvement over time.  Fans see a great drive and hang their hat on that, when I think that it's the outlier until you prove it's replicable.  I think @JiFapono had the post of the thread here re: what this performance means individually and in terms of improvement and I agree with every word he said.  I also haven't seen anything, in any of his recent performances, to make me feel good about him vs. the Bucs or Bills, and can anyone say they'd be surprised if he's anything short of terrible in those games?  If you wouldn't be surprised, it's hard to really solidify any notion of "improvement."

This is fair

[slimjasi]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You're right, the goal is for the rookie QB to play bad.  

The goal is to have your QB develop into a good player. 

Obsessing over how rookies compare to each other statistically 12 games into their careers is silly. 

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

The goal is to have your QB develop into a good player. 

Obsessing over how rookies compare to each other statistically 12 games into their careers is silly. 

And based on what we've seen, it appears highly unlikely he's going to develop into a good player.  He has limited upside, contrary to popular opinion, and his floor is incredibly low, as we've seen.  But feel free to just put a blindfold on for his entire rookie season if it makes you feel better.

[slimjasi]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And based on what we've seen, it appears highly unlikely he's going to develop into a good player.  He has limited upside, contrary to popular opinion, and his floor is incredibly low, as we've seen.  But feel free to just put a blindfold on for his entire rookie season if it makes you feel better.

Wilson has limited upside? 

Yea, I think I'll leave this here. 

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, slimjasi said:

Wilson has limited upside? 

Yea, I think I'll leave this here. 

Absolutely.  If you're inaccurate at the pro level it doesn't matter how strong your arm is.  

[Hal N of Provo]

13 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

The goal is to have your QB develop into a good player. 

Obsessing over how rookies compare to each other statistically 12 games into their careers is silly. 

Aaron Rodgers was way behind Zach at this point.  Every “Zach doesn’t have it” complaint is multiplied on his tape (EDIT YouTube video) from 2005.  The guy is legitimately included in QB GOAT discussions now.    

Zach is clearly getting better to me.  I see it all over; but it can be summarized by saying the game is starting to slow down for him.

After the he end of next season is the traditional time to ask questions that started being asked here after the 1st scrimmage lol.  

[Hal N of Provo]

@undertow wants recognition as the 4th Amigo lol.