Chris Simms sounds off on Jets fans

[Augustiniak]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Not to be snarky, but I think the conclusion is 180 degrees backwards. They blitz Zach Wilson because he has a 12.7 passer rating when pressured (good for 37th in the NFL) and—astonishingly—has only crossed the line of scrimmage (scrambles) on those pressures three times. Teams blitz Zach Wilson because it’s easy money with no downside. RE: Flacco, you don’t blitz him because he’s a statue and you can pressure him with your base DL. Flacco faced pressure on 22% of his dropbacks while playing with Connor McDermott at tackle, but put up a QB rating of 64.3 on pressured dropbacks. He was not good, but he at least demonstrated an ability to make teams pay for the blitz that Zach has not shown. 
 

As an aside, Ben Solak has an interesting article up right now about the Colts move to Sam Ehlinger, and uses that to frame a larger discussion about the need for mobile QBs, particularly this season. Summation: defenses are absolutely going to pressure your quarterback and they’re not going to let you throw it deep, so it’s a contest to see which team can complete the most 8 yard passes while, at the same time, not having a negative play (which dramatically reduces percentage of successful drives). The Jets have been able to avoid negative plays, and they get a lot of those 5- to 8-yard plays from their backs, which has substituted for conventionally good QB play. If they stop getting those 8-yard gains now that Breece is gone and as teams catch up with LaFleur successfully running the Wing-T, it’s all going to land in Zach’s lap to replace them. Good test of if he can this weekend. 

Which is why they must start using the TEs in the passing game.  

[T0mShane]

1 hour ago, DetroitRed said:

That dude is not an objective source 

He is definitely a Zach skeptic and PFF analysis is under fire in Jets Land these days, but those particular numbers are backed up across multiple sources, and the eye test.

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Which is why they must start using the TEs in the passing game.  

I think, in a perfect world, the solution is to flip it out to Garrett Wilson and Elijah Moore in one on one coverage and let them torture CBs with their RAC ability 

[Augustiniak]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I think, in a perfect world, the solution is to flip it out to Garrett Wilson and Elijah Moore in one on one coverage and let them torture CBs with their RAC ability 

Yes, but I’m a huge fan of spreading the ball around and getting it out quickly.  So instead of calling plays in the first quarter that require ZW to sit in the pocket and do his circus act, why not have quick hits to the TEs, wrs and rbs.  Just keep throwing it to different guys.  3-5 yards and let the guys run.  Alternate runs and passes, get first downs.  And definitely take a shot in the end zone when you get near midfield, maybe you get a PI call.  

[The Crusher]

2 hours ago, bitonti said:

Wins are a team stat 

No one says the Jets are 5-2 with Greg Z at kicker 

Or better yet the Jets are undefeated with Duane brown at LT 

Bit I'm pretty sure they are talking about QB's not Kickers or LT.

[T0mShane]

Just now, Augustiniak said:

Yes, but I’m a huge fan of spreading the ball around and getting it out quickly.  So instead of calling plays in the first quarter that require ZW to sit in the pocket and do his circus act, why not have quick hits to the TEs, wrs and rbs.  Just keep throwing it to different guys.  3-5 yards and let the guys run.  Alternate runs and passes, get first downs.  And definitely take a shot in the end zone when you get near midfield, maybe you get a PI call.  

I would guarantee that the plays LaFleur draws up are all designed for Zach to quick-hit the TEs and receivers but Zach is largely incapable of doing so.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, T0mShane said:

I would guarantee that the plays LaFleur draws up are all designed for Zach to quick-hit the TEs and receivers but Zach is largely incapable of doing so.

He does on the rollouts.  Move the pocket.  My fear is the pats lbs undercutting the slants.

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

He does on the rollouts.  Move the pocket.  My fear is the pats lbs undercutting the slants.

This offense isn’t designed to roll the pocket out, though. It’s designed for the quarterback to make a pre-snap read and get the ball out quick. It’s probably not a good match for Zach’s skillset. 

[Integrity28]

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

 

We also cannot assume that Flacco would take sack where Zach wouldn’t, because Joe knows to throw it away - not run all over like an idiot.

[Integrity28]

2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

This offense isn’t designed to roll the pocket out, though. It’s designed for the quarterback to make a pre-snap read and get the ball out quick. It’s probably not a good match for Zach’s skillset. 

Because he’s can't make the pre-snap read.

[Integrity28]

8 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I would guarantee that the plays LaFleur draws up are all designed for Zach to quick-hit the TEs and receivers but Zach is largely incapable of doing so.

He wants to make sportscenter throws so badly, he runs runs himself right out of the opportunity.

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, Integrity28 said:

Because he’s can't make the pre-snap read.

Completely blind to it. Hard to ask a guy who takes five seconds to process to perform in a way that requires less than half of that. 

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

He wants to make sportscenter throws so badly, he runs runs himself right out of the opportunity.

He’s that dude playing pickup basketball in the park who watched too many Steph Curry highlights and tries to emulate that style of play, but sucks and everyone wants to kill him. 

[The Crusher]

10 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

He’s that dude playing pickup basketball in the park who watched too many Steph Curry highlights and tries to emulate that style of play, but sucks and everyone wants to kill him. 

@JiFapono

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't see much of anyone saying he's doing great.

I don't think I ever said that we were.

The sentiment I keep hearing is:  "He's 4-0 and winning is all that matters"

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

W/L record is and was only being discussed in the first place as a stat - official or not - because of Wilson's sucky passing stats/production. I think that's pretty obvious & since it's easy enough to see where it originated in this thread, it's silly to pretend otherwise.

I'm having a very sh*tty day, and I lack the energy to continue on this line of debate, so I'll just concede.  Clearly the topics are inextricably related. 

If you don't believe my intent on the official stat aspect/exchange with JiF, so be it.

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

And yes, that wikipedia definition is precisely what I'm saying: you were changing the criteria for what should used to judge poor QB play. First it was W/L record alone (not W/L record plus a bunch of Flacco stats).

I don't think that's accurate, and I have cited Flacco's stats as well to my recollection.

Quote

When you want to argue that doesn't fly with Wilson this year, you changed the criteria, i.e. you moved the metaphorical goalposts further back. 

The two are separate but related criteria.

1. Production

2. Role in/Responsibility for their teams winning.

I don't feel any need to cite both every time I cite one or the other to avoid claims of goalpost moving.

If we don't agree on this point, fine.  

[The Crusher]

39 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I would guarantee that the plays LaFleur draws up are all designed for Zach to quick-hit the TEs and receivers but Zach is largely incapable of doing so.

That’s what the coaching staff did to get Fields going Monday. Then he just athletically gifted the Pats into oblivion. 

[DetroitRed]

50 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

He is definitely a Zach skeptic and PFF analysis is under fire in Jets Land these days, but those particular numbers are backed up across multiple sources, and the eye test.

Maybe.  But, you can’t find his one positive take on Zach 

[T0mShane]

5 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

That’s what the coaching staff did to get Fields going Monday. Then he just athletically gifted the Pats into oblivion. 

Crazy thing: the Bears are the most run-heavy team in football, but before Monday Night, they had only run 12 designed run plays for Fields, but he had scrambled on almost 18% of his pass plays, which is terrible. If they decide to employ the QB run game moving forward, that team could be spicy.

[T0mShane]

8 minutes ago, DetroitRed said:

Maybe.  But, you can’t find his one positive take on Zach 

To be fair, positive takes on Zach are in extremely short supply these days

[The Crusher]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

Crazy thing: the Bears are the most run-heavy team in football, but before Monday Night, they had only run 12 designed run plays for Fields, but he had scrambled on almost 18% of his pass plays, which is terrible. If they decide to employ the QB run game moving forward, that team could be spicy.

They actually said that and remover thinking, “  WTF don’t they run him more!” 

[maury77]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Solak article. Takes some liberties, but still an interesting read. Nate Tice also has a good companion article on what the Bears transitioned to this week with Fields. I don’t think they can replicate that with Zach because Zach wouldn’t hold up, but interesting nonetheless.

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2022/10/25/23422203/indianapolis-colts-sam-ehlinger-matt-ryan-scrambling

I think you saw that in action on MNF when Fields repeatedly scrambled to pick up first downs against the Pats. Wilson has the ability to do this, but I'm concerned about him taking so many hits given his injury history. 

[maury77]

15 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Crazy thing: the Bears are the most run-heavy team in football, but before Monday Night, they had only run 12 designed run plays for Fields, but he had scrambled on almost 18% of his pass plays, which is terrible. If they decide to employ the QB run game moving forward, that team could be spicy.

Yeah, I'm curious about how the Jets D will handle a scrambling QB. Lamar didn't run all too much week 1 and most of the guys faced since then have been fairly immobile. 

[derp]

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I think, in a perfect world, the solution is to flip it out to Garrett Wilson and Elijah Moore in one on one coverage and let them torture CBs with their RAC ability 

Part of the problem with taking reasonably fast but not crazy fast (i.e. Waddle/Hill) 180 pound WR's is they're probably not running past guys but probably not breaking tackles either. Wilson has wiggle but those jukes completely bring him to a stop enough that they're great for getting another few yards but they also give other defenders too much time to rally and make the tackle to let him create big plays.

They really need to let those guys run more stuff that takes advantage of their change of direction. Outs, jerk routes, digs - get defenders on their heels. And run double moves so they can't sit on the short stuff completely. I think that's the way to attack with on the ground winners which is what they have - although I'd like to see Wilson get more attempts on the outside in contested situations. If he can play the X and win one on one's it'd completely reshape the offense. It's a lot to ask of him as a rookie, but they also took him tenth overall.

It's why the Hall injury sucks. Offense needs an easy button they can go to that can get yardage even when defenders try to stop it. Hall's the first easy button they've had since that one nice Brandon Marshall year and before that I don't even know. And the only one with home run ability.

[derp]

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Not to be snarky, but I think the conclusion is 180 degrees backwards. They blitz Zach Wilson because he has a 12.7 passer rating when pressured (good for 37th in the NFL) and—astonishingly—has only crossed the line of scrimmage (scrambles) on those pressures three times. Teams blitz Zach Wilson because it’s easy money with no downside. RE: Flacco, you don’t blitz him because he’s a statue and you can pressure him with your base DL. Flacco faced pressure on 22% of his dropbacks while playing with Connor McDermott at tackle, but put up a QB rating of 64.3 on pressured dropbacks. He was not good, but he at least demonstrated an ability to make teams pay for the blitz that Zach has not shown. 
 

As an aside, Ben Solak has an interesting article up right now about the Colts move to Sam Ehlinger, and uses that to frame a larger discussion about the need for mobile QBs, particularly this season. Summation: defenses are absolutely going to pressure your quarterback and they’re not going to let you throw it deep, so it’s a contest to see which team can complete the most 8 yard passes while, at the same time, not having a negative play (which dramatically reduces percentage of successful drives). The Jets have been able to avoid negative plays, and they get a lot of those 5- to 8-yard plays from their backs, which has substituted for conventionally good QB play. If they stop getting those 8-yard gains now that Breece is gone and as teams catch up with LaFleur successfully running the Wing-T, it’s all going to land in Zach’s lap to replace them. Good test of if he can this weekend. 

Genuinely, if you don't have an answer against pressure it's super easy for defenses. They will just blitz you into oblivion until you show you can beat it. It's of course harder when defenses can get pressure with four, but if you can't take advantage of their being less guys in coverage when they bring more, then they'll just do that until you show them you have an answer.

Everybody focuses on wins, completion percentage, athleticism, arm strength, and who throws a nice ball when it comes to college prospects. But I cannot recall a quarterback who has learned how to handle pressure at the professional level. I think it's an intrinsic trait, and it's critical. The best guys make good decisions against pressure with relative consistency. Wilson basically played behind a wall at BYU and some of us thought it was a big deal to not have an answer to that question (or very little answer, and not a good one when it existed).

He needs to show an answer this season. If he can't beat the blitz, teams will just blitz him, and it will never matter how pretty things look when it's clean.

To me, the Hall and AVT injuries are evidence of how fragile things are in this league. The Jets have a nice, cheap, talented young core right now. This is, with the right QB, a team that has a window to see if they can make the playoffs, get lucky, and go on a little run. If I was in charge I'd be closely monitoring Wilson's progress and have an eye towards guys with those more "good at playing the quarterback position" traits than tools in college and, if the progress isn't there, see if I can make a run at someone on a rookie deal while guys like Sauce, AVT, Hall, and Garrett Wilson are productive and cheap. If that means taking a shot on Hendon Hooker or giving up a ton of picks and some of the misfit young pieces to go get a Bryce Young, so be it.

This is not a window I'd want to look back and think I wasted just to see if Zach Wilson was the outlier in terms of adapting to the NFL level on his rookie deal. And ultimately, those competitions have worked out for both players at points - Brees and Rivers come to mind. I'd rather potentially have too many answers at QB than have one question mark, and I just can't see how Wilson is anything but a question mark right now.

And nothing would make me happier than being wrong about Wilson. But I see the same reasons I wouldn't have taken him at 2 and played him cropping up.

[Integrity28]

3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

He’s that dude playing pickup basketball in the park who watched too many Steph Curry highlights and tries to emulate that style of play, but sucks and everyone wants to kill him. 

@JiFapono

[Integrity28]

3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

He’s that dude playing pickup basketball in the park who watched too many Steph Curry highlights and tries to emulate that style of play, but sucks and everyone wants to kill him. 

 

3 hours ago, The Crusher said:

@JiFapono

 

Just now, Integrity28 said:

@JiFapono

When you’re so eager to reply you become blind to any other responses…

@Sperm Edwards can we get a ninja rep icon? ???

[The Crusher]

28 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

 

 

When you’re so eager to reply you become blind to any other responses…

@Sperm Edwards can we get a ninja rep icon? ???

It’s more of a reflex for us.  Like a decade of word association. 

[JustInFudge]

4 hours ago, The Crusher said:

@JiFapono

 

1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

@JiFapono

I'm 43 years old, when I step foot on the basketball court I'm trying to do my best Dominque Wilkins impression while really looking like a wannabe Jeff Hornacek.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

 can we get a ninja rep icon? ???

I don’t know if there’s room for one more; there might be a limit of the number we’re at. I think I had an issue with it last week before I removed the duplicative up-vote heart. But if not, there’s a request for…

- ninja

- en fuego flame

- changing POTW to a sperm gif (so very many requests for that one)

- ???

[BloodGreen]

this guy thought Kellen Mond was the next Tom Brady, soooo...
Anyways that's a bad take. He's played with blinders on. Now, he's right about the limiting mistakes...  hence the 200 yards in 2 games combined part, because the only the throws he's making are 5-8 yard slants, screens and outs.  But you can't watch the last couple games and feel like you're getting the mileage out of the position. That's insane. 

With the running game firing on all cylinders 5-8 yard slants, screens and outs have been all that was required to win. 4-0. That means something. With the Hall injury, we may get a better read on ZW’s future moving forward.

[Integrity28]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

I don’t know if there’s room for one more; there might be a limit of the number we’re at. I think I had an issue with it last week before I removed the duplicative up-vote heart. But if not, there’s a request for…

- ninja

- en fuego flame

- changing POTW to a sperm gif (so very many requests for that one)

- ???

The first two are mine. I do not want to be associated with the third. LOL

[HawkeyeJet]

5 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Not to be snarky, but I think the conclusion is 180 degrees backwards. They blitz Zach Wilson because he has a 12.7 passer rating when pressured (good for 37th in the NFL) and—astonishingly—has only crossed the line of scrimmage (scrambles) on those pressures three times. Teams blitz Zach Wilson because it’s easy money with no downside. RE: Flacco, you don’t blitz him because he’s a statue and you can pressure him with your base DL. Flacco faced pressure on 22% of his dropbacks while playing with Connor McDermott at tackle, but put up a QB rating of 64.3 on pressured dropbacks. He was not good, but he at least demonstrated an ability to make teams pay for the blitz that Zach has not shown. 
 

As an aside, Ben Solak has an interesting article up right now about the Colts move to Sam Ehlinger, and uses that to frame a larger discussion about the need for mobile QBs, particularly this season. Summation: defenses are absolutely going to pressure your quarterback and they’re not going to let you throw it deep, so it’s a contest to see which team can complete the most 8 yard passes while, at the same time, not having a negative play (which dramatically reduces percentage of successful drives). The Jets have been able to avoid negative plays, and they get a lot of those 5- to 8-yard plays from their backs, which has substituted for conventionally good QB play. If they stop getting those 8-yard gains now that Breece is gone and as teams catch up with LaFleur successfully running the Wing-T, it’s all going to land in Zach’s lap to replace them. Good test of if he can this weekend. 

I actually agree  for the most part and that’s basically what I intended to say but failed to clearly.  I think my main point was the PFF guy seems to be making a case for Flacco because he has taken less sacks percentage wise than Wilson, but doesn’t point out the drastic difference between Flacco and Wilson blitz numbers.

I’m am struggling to put together my thoughts clearly today for whatever reason, but I think there is a fundamental difference in vs the Blitz and Under pressure.  People didn’t blitz much vs Flacco.  So his under pressure throws presumably would be vs a 4 man rush and presumably a longer amount of time to make a decision.  Where has defenses blitz Wilson Moore to cause him to make quick decisions, which he can’t. I just think the PFF guy oversimplifies what has gone on.  The blitz makes Wilson feels rushed even if it provides a recorded pressure or not.  That’s the bigger problem

[PorP]

5 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

Which is why they must start using the TEs in the passing game.  

I think there has been so much impact to the oline that the CS views as a risk,  you'll probably see the TE's blocking. 

I do not think the team originally wanted this but circumstances changed since thier acquisition 

[rtnelson]

On 10/25/2022 at 12:45 PM, Joe W. Namath said:

Simms is totally wrong here.  If you watch Zach Wilson play these last 3 week and think there is 0 to be concerned about, then you have an agenda(which simms does) or you dont know much football.

I'm a BYU fan although I wouldnt say I'm agenda driven.  Ive been optimistic about Zach until i saw him miss a few throws that he should have hit this past week.  Especially the one to Uzamah over the middle.

I have definitely gine from optimistic to hopeful.  At some point, something has got to give, because the team around him is too good.

[DetroitRed]

Zach actually had a better QBr vs Denver than Herbert .