Breakout game for JSN

[Barry McCockinner]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

My point was more that the guy is basically seen as a slot only option and seemed like a waste of resource at 15. 

OK? Are you disagreeing with my original post where I said there was pretty good evidence of him not being good value at 15?

[Scott Dierking]

2 minutes ago, Paradis said:

man... lol you have a wildly inflated assessment of JSN. He's not the guy you're fighting for right now. 

Right now, he is a glorified RB out of the backfield, that the Seahawks use mainly in the flats in hopes of using his worldly speed and shiftiness. And, he has nice YAC. But they mainly come near the LOS.

[Barry McCockinner]

 

[PS17]

4 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401437911

Does anyone else remember Jeff Smith's breakout game last year against the Lions?

Look at those prolific passing numbers. The debate is over - Zach Wilson is elite. 

[TuscanyTile2]

17 minutes ago, PS17 said:

Look at those prolific passing numbers. The debate is over - Zach Wilson is elite. 

You're confusing Zach with Joe Flacco.

[Larz]

You know. The Jets should just draft the first 45 players so we don’t have these disagreements 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, jetblue95 said:

no, they are not behind two stud WRs, but if JSN is such an elite talent like many of his supporters make him to be, he likely would have done more to date.  half his stats came this week when metcalf was out.

Fair enough.  If MacDonald was such an elite talent, the same could be said, so we're back to where we started.  What did we need more, a WR who'd likely play ahead of Cobb, Hardman and Lazard, or a DE who isn't playing ahead of the likes of Huff and Lawson.

1 hour ago, jetblue95 said:

you are correct on the second part, once zach stepped in, nothing was saving this passing game.  so JSN with zach at QB would only marginally be more productive than mcdonald has been at this point.

Not sure, I think JSN would be more productive than say, Cobb, given the same downs.  Presuming Zach would see him (the issue I believe with him and Elijah Moore).

1 hour ago, jetblue95 said:

see my above post on my thoughts on the drafting of JSN and why i can understand why they didn't focus on a (slot) WR, even if i personally would have been fine with it (although the michigan alum in me would have been troubled to have to root for 2 buckeyes...)

I respect others feel differently than I do.  Well, did.  It is what it is now, all this what-if stuff is just time wasting really.

[Paradis]

1 hour ago, Scott Dierking said:

Right now, he is a glorified RB out of the backfield, that the Seahawks use mainly in the flats in hopes of using his worldly speed and shiftiness. And, he has nice YAC. But they mainly come near the LOS.

Which was my concern with him -- you're getting a deluxe Slot WR/YAC guy... which is great, he can move the chains, be a reliable outlet for your QB. But he has average-to-subpar perimeter game (that we've seen), and pretty lengthy injury history. He dominated in the interior of the field when Olave and Wilson were working DBs dirty as well. 

Every year there's a couple players whose name/fame/hype exceeds their talent. JSN put on a show down the stretch in 2021. After that, he was auto slotted as a RND 1 guy and the rest was history.

[32EBoozer]

18 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

also - there's no H in Becton.

I’ve heard that said… a massive misinformation campaign by Giants organization.

[bonkertons]

21 hours ago, AFJF said:

Exactly what every "win now" team needs.  Long-term projects in the first round.

This logic baffles tf out of me.  Like we're drafting for a 2 year window?  No, I'm sorry.  That's not how this works nor how it should work.  Draft to keep your team in contention for as long as you possibly can.  Not to say McDonald gives this team a better shot at a long-term window than JSN, but I won't say that he doesn't either.  Judging McDonald on 6 games is almost as stupid as judging JSN on the same amount of games.  

 

Still, enough with this sh*t about WR being a need at the draft.  Garrett, Lazard, Davis, Hardman, Cobb, Mims.  You going to spend a 1st on a #4 WR for "win now" reasons?  If we were drafting for the NOW, a guy like Kancey, Bresee or Mazi Smith would have made the most sense.  Maybe even say **** it and take Jack Campbell. 

 

JSN?  Yeah, I don't see it.  There's like 5 guys in the 2024 draft that I'd rather have.  Guys we should have a good shot at drafting even if we end up competing this year.    

[jetblue95]

16 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Fair enough.  If MacDonald was such an elite talent, the same could be said, so we're back to where we started.  What did we need more, a WR who'd likely play ahead of Cobb, Hardman and Lazard, or a DE who isn't playing ahead of the likes of Huff and Lawson

i'm not so sure JSN would be playing ahead of lazard given the coaching staff and the run first offense (lazard is an excellent blocker, no clue on JSN, but doubt he's at the same level as lazard).  and if rodgers were healthy, you know lazard would be out there.  JSN over cobb and harman - yeah, i would hope he's good enough to beat those guys out, but a slot/#3 WR with a 1st round pick isn't necessarily the best utilization of assets.  and yes, i know it would be more than mcdonald, so no need to mention it.

in the end, whether mcdonald is/was worth the pick and the right choice will take some time to discover.  the case for taking a WR would be better if you (and others) were advocating for zay flowers or even jordan addision; 1st round rookies who have stepped up.  as i said, i would have been fine with them taking JSN, so i'm not calling you out for doing such.  just don't think it's black and white that JSN was THE GUY and that the mcdonald pick was a bust.

 

[#27TheDominator]

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

And since Douglas has been GM, we have:

1. A record of 23-49

2. Offensive finishes of 31st, 32nd, 28th and 29th.  We're currently 22nd.

3. No All-Pro players on Offense.

Since the year 2000, 17 of our 24 first picks (our first pick regardless of round) were spent on Defense. 

Of the 6 offensive picks, 3 were QB's.   All busts so far.

In 24 years of picks we've picked an offensive non-QB with our first pick exactly....three times (Moss in 2001, Brick in 2006 and Becton in 2020).

And we picked a Kicker with our first pick once, Nugent in 2005.

Since 2000, we've averaged 22nd in Offense/Scoring, with only one top 10 finish (2008, the Rent-a-Favre season).

Since 2000, we've averaged 23rd in Offense/Yards, with only one top 10 finish (2015, the Rent-a-Fitz season).

Of Douglas's Offensive draft picks to-date, we have:

1. Chuma Edoga, OL.  2019.  Bust here, now playing for the Cowboys.
2. Trevon Wesco, TE, 2019.  9 rec. for 134 yards in his career, now with Tenn.
3. Mekhi Becton, OL, 2020.  Missed two full years to injury.  5th year option not taken.  Playing well now.
4. Denzel Mims, WR, 2020.  Complete bust.
5. La'Mical Perine, RB, 2020.  72 car. for 263 yards in his career.  Out of the league I believe.
6. James Morgan, QB, 2020.  Lol, Captain Morgan.
7. Cameron Clark, OL, 2020.  Never played a game.
8. Zach Wilson, QB, 2021.  Ranked 31st and 33rd starting QB in 2021 and 2022, before being benched for Rodgers.   Ranked 30th at current in 2023.
9. Alijah Vera-Tucker, OL, 2021.  Good player, can't stay healthy, now missing his 2nd season due to injury.  
10. Elijah Moore, WR, 2021.  Showed flashes, attitude issues, sent packing.
11. Michael Carter, RB, 2021.  3rd stringer, career 4.0 YPC.  Drops alot of passes.
12. Garrett Wilson, WR, 2022.  Stud.  
13. Breece Hall, RB, 2022.  Stud, albeit missed half of his rookie year to injury.
14. Jeremy Ruckert, TE, 2022.  TBD, backup at current, but showing signs of starter-quality.
15. Max Mitchell, OL, 2022.  Meh so far in limited duty and with injuries.
16. Joe Tippmann, OL, 2023.  TBD but looks good so far.  Hurt several times this year but playing through it.
17. Carter Warren, OL, 2023.  Has not played I believe.
18. Israel Abanikanda, RB, 2023.  Showed flashes in camp, hurt, has sadly not been seen again since, despite being healthy and Cook being horrible.
19. Zach Kuntz, TE, 2023.  Best name, on P.S. at current.

So lets see.......two studs (Wilson and Hall), three good O-linemen who can't stay healthy (Becton, AVT and Tippmann) and.........not much else.  In five drafts.

So yeah, sure, I'll "pump my brakes" I guess, after all, who could possibly question a record a like this!  Lol.

You'll just have to forgive me for thinking a focus on Offense would be a nice change of pace.

If this is how you are rating them, how long are you expecting JSN to last on that turf?   

His main trait is agility and he profiled to be mostly slot.  They already had bodies for that.  There is zero reason, literally none, to think that he would start ahead of Lazard and Cobb with Rodgers throwing.  At that point what does he add?  The passing game isn't so great?  I don't need to relive why, but Gipson + McDonald may well be >  JSN.  You wanted a WR?  Cool.  Something tells me that you wouldn't be crowing about a best game of 62 yards on 7 targets and if one of us did you would rain on our parade.  Somebody posted Jeff Smith just to get me riled up, well this kid has a full yard less yards per target than Jeff Smith did.. 

[Beerfish]

1 hour ago, Paradis said:

Which was my concern with him -- you're getting a deluxe Slot WR/YAC guy... which is great, he can move the chains, be a reliable outlet for your QB. But he has average-to-subpar perimeter game (that we've seen), and pretty lengthy injury history. He dominated in the interior of the field when Olave and Wilson were working DBs dirty as well. 

Every year there's a couple players whose name/fame/hype exceeds their talent. JSN put on a show down the stretch in 2021. After that, he was auto slotted as a RND 1 guy and the rest was history.

JSN is going to be Amon Ra-St Brown.  They play the same game, about the same size.   He will catch a ton of balls, get open short and make lots of first downs.

We snicker at him being a slot guy but look what he did the same year he played with Garret Wilson and Chris Olave, both those guys said JSN is really good.

My big beef was not necessarily that we did not take JSN it's that we took a pure speed edge rusher not ready to play in a win now year and with real shi**y receivers other than Garret Wilson.

I mean we are not playing the guy we picked at 15 overall and have Randall fing cobb as a starter.

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, Beerfish said:

JSN is going to be Amon Ra-St Brown.  They play the same game, about the same size.   He will catch a ton of balls, get open short and make lots of first downs.

We snicker at him being a slot guy but look what he did the same year he played with Garret Wilson and Chris Olave, both those guys said JSN is really good.

My big beef was not necessarily that we did not take JSN it's that we took a pure speed edge rusher not ready to play in a win now year and with real shi**y receivers other than Garret Wilson.

I mean we are not playing the guy we picked at 15 overall and have Randall fing cobb as a starter.

My comp without watching him much was the Giants Steve Smith - who was excellent before his injury.

[Scott Dierking]

12 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

My comp without watching him much was the Giants Steve Smith - who was excellent before his injury.

The largest drawback with JSN is his fragility. He was injured in high school. He was injured in college (Christ, he took off 4 months for a hamstring injury), and he has been  injured in the NFL.

GUARANTEED, that if the Jets drafted him, there would be some people on this board (probably some people in this thread), criticizing the pick (justifiably so) that The Jets drafted a fragile slot receiver at 15 that  had exactly one college season. 

Point being, the second guessing can occur with practically 85 percent of the first round, 8 weeks into a season.

[#27TheDominator]

I also don't think it is particularly fair to whine about McDonald's playing time.  He played 27% of the snaps against Denver.  I think he was dinged last week.  They drafted him because they think he will be "special."  Does that mean he will be?  Not particularly, but that was the thought.  Most said he needed a year to put on some weight and strength, but he had great traits as a pass rusher.  The fact he isn't LT or Derrick Thomas out of the gate is no surprise.  They are supposedly looking to move Lawson.  I would assume that at least some of that is to get him more playing time. 

[#27TheDominator]

3 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

The largest drawback with JSN is his fragility. He was injured in high school. He was injured in college (Christ, he took off 4 months for a hamstring injury), and he has been  injured in the NFL.

GUARANTEED, that if the Jets drafted him, there would be some people on this board (probably some people in this thread), criticizing the pick (justifiably so) that The Jets drafted a fragile slot receiver at 15 that  had exactly one college season. 

Point being, the second guessing can occur with practically 85 percent of the first round, 8 weeks into a season.

Around here it is often worse.  Guys are declared future studs early - Becton and Mims were going to be "pillars of the offense for the next decade."  Then Mims was a bust and Moore was great choice.  Whoopsy.  There is a reason that they say to wait 3 years to judge a draft class.  You can make some educated decisions earlier, but you don't know what you are getting no matter how smart we all try by being early adopters

[neckdemon]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

  What did we need more, a WR who'd likely play ahead of Cobb, Hardman and Lazard, or a DE who isn't playing ahead of the likes of Huff and Lawson.

Huff is pretty damn good though

[T0mShane]

49 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

JSN is going to be Amon Ra-St Brown.  They play the same game, about the same size.

This is ludicrous

[nycdan]

At least for now that Broderick Jones can't crack the starting lineup in PIT we don't have to listen to the whimpering about not drafting him because Joe Douglas sucks and all that... but it's coming.

[Larz]

JD polled the room on draft day. Not a single mention of this guy. 
 

If there was a mistake made a team would have traded up with Washington for the kid. That did not happen.  
 

The NFL didn’t think the kid was worth a pick in the top 15

why do mock drafters get it so wrong?

NFL teams have their own analytics that they use, and the mock drafters do NOT have access to this information. 
 

JD asked his scouts and his director of college scouting for the 3 names when the jets were on the clock. 
 

His name was not there. 
 

end of story 

 

 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

My big beef was not necessarily that we did not take JSN it's that we took a pure speed edge rusher not ready to play in a win now year and with real shi**y receivers other than Garret Wilson.

I mean we are not playing the guy we picked at 15 overall and have Randall fing cobb as a starter.

This.

[PS17]

4 hours ago, Claymation said:

That's how you catch the ball in traffic

Elite separation skills on full display here

[Beerfish]

51 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

This is ludicrous

We shall see in two years, if both of us are still here.

Even if a person hates jsn, take Addiison or zay flowers or a reach olienman.  But taking a skinny edge rusher not ready to play on a team with too may dline already is a stupid fail by the GM and coach and a panic move.

[T0mShane]

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

We shall see in two years, if both of us are still here.

Even if a person hates jsn, take Addiison or zay flowers or a reach olienman.  But taking a skinny edge rusher not ready to play on a team with too may dline already is a stupid fail by the GM and coach and a panic move.

I was referring to the comp of JSN to Amon Ra, who is a psychotic competitor dawg whose dad was Mr America while JSN is a bit of a pusswah. And we still had Corey Davis when the draft was occurred, so it’s arguable we had more receiver depth at the time than we had edge depth. Lawson has been toast, Jermaine Johnson isn’t a true pass rusher, and Huff was slated to be a part time guy. I get that, post-Davis retirement, we could use another receiver, but nobody saw that coming. 

[#27TheDominator]

54 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

We shall see in two years, if both of us are still here.

Even if a person hates jsn, take Addiison or zay flowers or a reach olienman.  But taking a skinny edge rusher not ready to play on a team with too may dline already is a stupid fail by the GM and coach and a panic move.

Bad way to look at the draft.  You get special players by taking them when available.  Not by filling some perceived need.  The idea that it was a panic move is insanity to me.  You want to grab some sh*tty OL or day 2 or 3 WR prospect at 15 because NEED! but this was a panic move?  They are not panicking, you are.  If McDonald turns out to be a special edge rusher in 2025 you aren't going to be complaining about missing out on some 600 yards per year slot WR.  Why take a chance at the next Frank Clark?  We could have had Jamison Crowder!  

Zay Flowers has 400 yards in an offense with 20 more attempts than the Jets and the Ravens are among the lowest.  Jordan Addison is sub 300 yards in an offense that has more than 33% more yards than the Jets and 50+ more attempts.  What do you think he'd have done here?  This offense was put in place for Rodgers.  Rodgers really likes Cobb and Lazard.   

[RutgersJetFan]

I'm a bit confused by this. If we're going to complain about missing on a WR, isn't Zay Flowers the guy to harp on? 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

7 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

I'm a bit confused by this. If we're going to complain about missing on a WR, isn't Zay Flowers the guy to harp on? 

Breakout. Game. 

Keep up please. 

[Beerfish]

44 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Bad way to look at the draft.  You get special players by taking them when available.  Not by filling some perceived need.  The idea that it was a panic move is insanity to me.  You want to grab some sh*tty OL or day 2 or 3 WR prospect at 15 because NEED! but this was a panic move?  They are not panicking, you are.  If McDonald turns out to be a special edge rusher in 2025 you aren't going to be complaining about missing out on some 600 yards per year slot WR.  Why take a chance at the next Frank Clark?  We could have had Jamison Crowder!  

Zay Flowers has 400 yards in an offense with 20 more attempts than the Jets and the Ravens are among the lowest.  Jordan Addison is sub 300 yards in an offense that has more than 33% more yards than the Jets and 50+ more attempts.  What do you think he'd have done here?  This offense was put in place for Rodgers.  Rodgers really likes Cobb and Lazard.   

We are in win now mode and have holes and the offense stinks.   This is the 15th pick in the draft not some 3-4 year development player.  A first round pick in the top half of the draft should be contributing at most after a few game and training camp break in period.  See our 2nd rounder Tippman.

We drafted a Dline in the 1st the year before and one in the 4th we had huff who was not getting snaps as it was.

What is holding us back?  Offense, so lets draft more defense.  Sorry this hope that he is a 15 sack guy two years from now when he is 26-27 after Rodgers is gone is a big hope for that high of a pick.

He may be very good down the road, we could have done better.

 

[T0mShane]

7 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

He may be very good down the road, we could have done better.

 

[Ron Rico]

5 hours ago, bonkertons said:

  Draft to keep your team in contention for as long as you possibly can. 

Yes! I agree! That's exactly what JD is doing. 

[#27TheDominator]

12 hours ago, Beerfish said:

We are in win now mode and have holes and the offense stinks.   This is the 15th pick in the draft not some 3-4 year development player.  A first round pick in the top half of the draft should be contributing at most after a few game and training camp break in period.  See our 2nd rounder Tippman.

We drafted a Dline in the 1st the year before and one in the 4th we had huff who was not getting snaps as it was.

What is holding us back?  Offense, so lets draft more defense.  Sorry this hope that he is a 15 sack guy two years from now when he is 26-27 after Rodgers is gone is a big hope for that high of a pick.

He may be very good down the road, we could have done better.

 

You are literally spouting the logic that got us Leonard Williams and Jamal Adams.  It's been 6 weeks,and not 3 years.  You didn't like the pick.  Duly noted.  I didn't love it either but I'd probably have taken Gonzalez.  Picking strictly for need is a fool's game IMO

 

[T0mShane]

6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

You are literally spouting the logic that got us Leonard Williams and Jamal Adams.  It's been 6 weeks,and not 3 years.  You didn't like the pick.  Duly noted.  I didn't love it either but I'd probably have taken Hernandez.  Picking strictly for need is a fool's game IMO

 

Gonzalez*

[#27TheDominator]

54 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Gonzalez*

literally knew I was writing the wrong name and did it anyway.

[T0mShane]

4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

literally knew I was writing the wrong name and did it anyway.

I thought you were talking about the TCU guard Avila and got him confused with former UTEP guard Will Hernandez