JMJ Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Nothing earth shattering but very interesting for the few Mangini apologists we still have around here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boynton Beach Jets Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Nothing earth shattering but very interesting for the few Mangini apologists we still have around here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMaynard Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Pretty much says it all. Good luck, Cleveland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGHT STALKER Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 This is why I think this type of defense will help Gholston. Mangini liked the "read and react" style of defense while Ryan is attack, attack and attack...this should suit Gholston's style of play. If not, he's a bus ticket away from bustville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMaynard Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 This is why I think this type of defense will help Gholston. Mangini liked the "read and react" style of defense while Ryan is attack, attack and attack...this should suit Gholston's style of play. If not, he's a bus ticket away from bustville. And it is not just blitzing. Baltimore seems to play a one gap penetrating style with their d-line. And they constantly shift around to different spots with the LBers filling the uncovered holes. This is very unusual in that most 3-4 defenses stay in a basic 2 gap read and react mode with their d-line with little variation in their positions. This is going to be fun to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMJ Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 This is why I think this type of defense will help Gholston. Mangini liked the "read and react" style of defense while Ryan is attack, attack and attack...this should suit Gholston's style of play. If not, he's a bus ticket away from bustville. Why a coach who intends to play a read-n-react defense would draft a 4-3 DE and try to turn him into a 3-4 OLB is beyond me. If you're turning a 4-3 DE into a 3-4 OLB, it is for pass rushing reasons. HAVE HIM RUSH THE PASSER! Not cover TEs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I am not making any commentary but just asking the question- Who had more sacks last year, the Jets or the Ravens? I think we should explore those intricacies related to the answer. And the answer alone is not the ultimate answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I am not making any commentary but just asking the question- Who had more sacks last year, the Jets or the Ravens? I think we should explore those intricacies related to the answer. And the answer alone is not the ultimate answer. I think the bigger question is what team had a rookie QB whose defensive carried him them late January. Points allowed is probably a much more telling stat. I didn't look but I would be willing to bet that the Jets allowed more. That is all I really care about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4HCrew Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 when do the offensive players quotes start? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4HCrew Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I think the bigger question is what team had a rookie QB whose defensive carried him them late January. Points allowed is probably a much more telling stat. I didn't look but I would be willing to bet that the Jets allowed more. That is all I really care about. Or how much pressure forced interceptions or hurried passes/incompletions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I think the bigger question is what team had a rookie QB whose defensive carried him them late January. Points allowed is probably a much more telling stat. I didn't look but I would be willing to bet that the Jets allowed more. That is all I really care about. Agreed, but there have been so many people saying "we need to get after the QB more", but it is not that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMaynard Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Or how much pressure forced interceptions or hurried passes/incompletions Or how about consistent play for 16, even 19 games, not just the first 11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neckdemon Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I am not making any commentary but just asking the question- Who had more sacks last year, the Jets or the Ravens? I think we should explore those intricacies related to the answer. And the answer alone is not the ultimate answer. it's not just about sacks anyway. it's about getting pressure on the quarterback. you can get pressure on the quarterback and stillnot get a sack . beginning of thie seaosn the jest were blitzing and getting pressure on the quarterback. after that something happened (i think it had something to do with the cardinals game) and mangini barely rushed and dropped everybody back into covergae way too often. quarterbacks had all day to pick us apart......just look at shaun hill. mangini couldn't recover...he couldn't adjust and gameplan a way to stop the passing game.......he just kept droppping everybody back into coverage. idk wtf made him think that was going to work. the man is just horrendous at making adjustments.....and that's a huge part of the game...especially mid-game adjustments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neckdemon Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Agreed, but there have been so many people saying "we need to get after the QB more", but it is not that simple. blitzing is not black and white...it's not just sack or no sack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGHT STALKER Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I am not making any commentary but just asking the question- Who had more sacks last year, the Jets or the Ravens? I think we should explore those intricacies related to the answer. And the answer alone is not the ultimate answer. How about this stat...Jets had a -1 in turnover ratio and the Ravens had a -13...I'll take the ball anytime over a sack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai Jet Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Sounds like a slap at Manginia/Sutton I think it was more of a slap at Sutton. If you remember correctly Mangini wanted Sutton replaced last year with Rob Ryan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Here are 3 big reasons the Ravens click on defense: Ngata-This guy may be the best defensive player in the league who goes unnoticed. He takes on 2 blockers and still makes plays. He is as athletic of a big man as there is in the league. The Jets counter with Jenkins. Not a bad comparison, but he still pales to Ngata. Jenkins tired down the stretch, and it is still an unkown if he can handle full time 3-4 duty, even with plenty of rest during games. Ray Lewis-While he is a shell of his former self athletically, he is still the heartbeat of the defense. He hold people accountable on teh defense and makes sure they are amped and energetic throughout. His will is greater than his physicality, which is a tremendous statement. I am not sure the Jets have a leader that can even measure close to Lewis. Moreso, there seems to be finger pointing and shrugging going on on missed assignements. No one seems to take charge. Maybe Harris can develop in this role. Ed Reed-Incomparable in terms of insticts and athletic ability. He makes qbs secnd guess themselves and outhink themselves. Rhodes may say he can become this player, but I don't see how. The Ravens have other complimentary players, of course. The Jets do rather well in providing some star power to the Ravens big 3, but fall short in every category. That does not mean they can't play as a unit better, and they probably should with some cohesion. But Baltimore is not about scheming alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMaynard Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I think it was more of a slap at Sutton. If you remember correctly Mangini wanted Sutton replaced last year with Rob Ryan. That is true. Also notice that Mangini did not show any interest in bringing Sutton to Cleveland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai Jet Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 How about this stat...Jets had a -1 in turnover ratio and the Ravens had a -13...I'll take the ball anytime over a sack. Turnovers are the key. They vastly improve field position as well as demoralize the opponents. How many times have you seen the Jets driving for a score only to see a pick 6. Remember how you felt ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Agreed, but there have been so many people saying "we need to get after the QB more", but it is not that simple. No, it's not. The real question is why did we get after the QB fairly well in the first 6 games or so, and then never again? Our sack numbers were incredibly imbalanced and heavy towards the front end of the season. I would also argue, that similar to the Vilma makes a ton of tackles so he's great, argument, the Ravens, unlike the Jets, had less opportunities to get sacks because they're a defense that actually got off the field, unlike the Jets, who let teams get 12 plays a series, they actually got a 3 and out or two last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 How about this stat...Jets had a -1 in turnover ratio and the Ravens had a -13...I'll take the ball anytime over a sack. Favre threw 10 more int's than Flacco. The Jets have some talent. A more aggressive defense and a QB who's capable of protecting the football should be able to get them into the +10 range. The Jets were middle of the pack in int's, but led the league in forced fumbles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachEY Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Here are 3 big reasons the Ravens click on defense: Ngata-This guy may be the best defensive player in the league who goes unnoticed. He takes on 2 blockers and still makes plays. He is as athletic of a big man as there is in the league. The Jets counter with Jenkins. Not a bad comparison, but he still pales to Ngata. Jenkins tired down the stretch, and it is still an unkown if he can handle full time 3-4 duty, even with plenty of rest during games. Ray Lewis-While he is a shell of his former self athletically, he is still the heartbeat of the defense. He hold people accountable on teh defense and makes sure they are amped and energetic throughout. His will is greater than his physicality, which is a tremendous statement. I am not sure the Jets have a leader that can even measure close to Lewis. Moreso, there seems to be finger pointing and shrugging going on on missed assignements. No one seems to take charge. Maybe Harris can develop in this role. Ed Reed-Incomparable in terms of insticts and athletic ability. He makes qbs secnd guess themselves and outhink themselves. Rhodes may say he can become this player, but I don't see how. The Ravens have other complimentary players, of course. The Jets do rather well in providing some star power to the Ravens big 3, but fall short in every category. That does not mean they can't play as a unit better, and they probably should with some cohesion. But Baltimore is not about scheming alone. Another good post. Hopefully people's expectations are realistic. We are not going to have the Raven's defense next year. We simply don't have the talent. All we can truly hope for is an improved defense, that attacks more, puts it's players in the best position to succeed, and hopefully finds a role and develops Gholston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Why a coach who intends to play a read-n-react defense would draft a 4-3 DE and try to turn him into a 3-4 OLB is beyond me. If you're turning a 4-3 DE into a 3-4 OLB, it is for pass rushing reasons. HAVE HIM RUSH THE PASSER! Not cover TEs! This point is missed by the media and a lot of fans who criticize Gholston. He was drafted for 1 thing and then Mangini tried to make him into something he never was. Plus, Mangini did not want to put Gholston in during pass-rushing downs. I only went to 1 game this year (Miami) and I watched Pace on every done. I was stunned on how often he was in coverage. I swear, he was sent to attack the QB or RB less than a half dozen times, if that much. Season ticket holders have a better read on this. I know, just from watching the games on TV (and Pace's quotes) that Pace was primarily put in coverage for the second Pats game and onward. People try to make a point in defense of Mangini that for the first 11 games the Jets were near the top in sacks (but not pressures). That was because he had Pace attacking more. With the Pats game (he had Pace more in coverage) and even more after that. People attribute that to Harris getting hurt, but it was a wholely reactionary move by Mangini showing his natural passive tendencies. Mangini did more damage to this defense than people want to blame him for. As you mentioned, he was passive and failed to adjust as the Pats DC and did the same here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rillo Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Sounds like a slap at Manginia/Sutton Agreed, we'll see what the "Mad scientist" can cook up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack48 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I am not making any commentary but just asking the question- Who had more sacks last year, the Jets or the Ravens? I think we should explore those intricacies related to the answer. And the answer alone is not the ultimate answer. I would be more interested in pressures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious89x Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Rex Ryan is going to be some god sent from the heavens.What he HOPEFULLY can bring is something this franchise needs... a change in attitude, a change in it's culture. To me that's going to start with the defense. We actually do have a nice amount of talent on the defensive side of the ball and RR likes to put his players in a position where they can "succeed". Part of that is what JMJ posted with what Pace said. Do you think CP is a "cover OLB"?? NO, he's a pass rusher, and I think we'll see better production at that point from him. This is all IMO but we'll see a defense that wants to HURT the other team, that are excited to make plays. When you have a defense that can just about do anything, that always keeps you in games. All things considered... our defense wasn't terrible last year, a lot of our woe's came once Jenkins slowed down, Mangini and Sutton tried doing strictly read and react and our LB's were playing more coverage then pressure. Why do you think those short over the middle passes destroyed us? Anyways, I'm hoping to more then anything see a change in philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Jet Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Here are 3 big reasons the Ravens click on defense: Ngata-This guy may be the best defensive player in the league who goes unnoticed. He takes on 2 blockers and still makes plays. He is as athletic of a big man as there is in the league. The Jets counter with Jenkins. Not a bad comparison, but he still pales to Ngata. Jenkins tired down the stretch, and it is still an unkown if he can handle full time 3-4 duty, even with plenty of rest during games. Ray Lewis-While he is a shell of his former self athletically, he is still the heartbeat of the defense. He hold people accountable on teh defense and makes sure they are amped and energetic throughout. His will is greater than his physicality, which is a tremendous statement. I am not sure the Jets have a leader that can even measure close to Lewis. Moreso, there seems to be finger pointing and shrugging going on on missed assignements. No one seems to take charge. Maybe Harris can develop in this role. Ed Reed-Incomparable in terms of insticts and athletic ability. He makes qbs secnd guess themselves and outhink themselves. Rhodes may say he can become this player, but I don't see how. The Ravens have other complimentary players, of course. The Jets do rather well in providing some star power to the Ravens big 3, but fall short in every category. That does not mean they can't play as a unit better, and they probably should with some cohesion. But Baltimore is not about scheming alone. Jenkins is much MUCH better than Ngata when 100%. There was a period last year where he was the best defensive player in the league. We need to avoid letting him get worn down and the key to that is get some useful depth behind him. If Big J can hold up, we should have a very good defense next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rillo Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Jenkins is much MUCH better than Ngata when 100%. There was a period last year where he was the best defensive player in the league. We need to avoid letting him get worn down and the key to that is get some useful depth behind him. If Big J can hold up, we should have a very good defense next year. I agree 100%, the pieces are there, a new scheme and depth I think we'll have a nasty defense. I can't wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggin94it Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 I am not making any commentary but just asking the question- Who had more sacks last year, the Jets or the Ravens? I think we should explore those intricacies related to the answer. And the answer alone is not the ultimate answer. The Ravens had a tremendous amount of hurries - they led the league through week 11 (last date for which FO has stats). QBs have a much shorter clock with the ravens D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damaged89 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Jenkins is much MUCH better than Ngata when 100%. There was a period last year where he was the best defensive player in the league. We need to avoid letting him get worn down and the key to that is get some useful depth behind him. If Big J can hold up, we should have a very good defense next year. Ngata is every bit as good as Jenkins. He might not be as quick but he's impossible to move and doesn't have the injury history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewilly Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Here are 3 big reasons the Ravens click on defense: Ngata-This guy may be the best defensive player in the league who goes unnoticed. He takes on 2 blockers and still makes plays. He is as athletic of a big man as there is in the league. The Jets counter with Jenkins. Not a bad comparison, but he still pales to Ngata. Jenkins tired down the stretch, and it is still an unkown if he can handle full time 3-4 duty, even with plenty of rest during games. Ray Lewis-While he is a shell of his former self athletically, he is still the heartbeat of the defense. He hold people accountable on teh defense and makes sure they are amped and energetic throughout. His will is greater than his physicality, which is a tremendous statement. I am not sure the Jets have a leader that can even measure close to Lewis. Moreso, there seems to be finger pointing and shrugging going on on missed assignements. No one seems to take charge. Maybe Harris can develop in this role. Ed Reed-Incomparable in terms of insticts and athletic ability. He makes qbs secnd guess themselves and outhink themselves. Rhodes may say he can become this player, but I don't see how. The Ravens have other complimentary players, of course. The Jets do rather well in providing some star power to the Ravens big 3, but fall short in every category. That does not mean they can't play as a unit better, and they probably should with some cohesion. But Baltimore is not about scheming alone. good post dierk but I think ryan sees a lot of similarities in the 2 defenses talent wise. calvin pace is no slouch and jenkins had games last year where he outshined ngata. Harris can be a beast but no he's not ray lewis. I think we have a lotta potential to be very ravenlike defensively. revis is a great corner and rhodes will be very good under this coaching staff. we looked lost out there & I think we have great talent with huge potential with good coaching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason423 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 This point is missed by the media and a lot of fans who criticize Gholston. He was drafted for 1 thing and then Mangini tried to make him into something he never was. Plus, Mangini did not want to put Gholston in during pass-rushing downs. I only went to 1 game this year (Miami) and I watched Pace on every done. I was stunned on how often he was in coverage. I swear, he was sent to attack the QB or RB less than a half dozen times, if that much. Season ticket holders have a better read on this. I know, just from watching the games on TV (and Pace's quotes) that Pace was primarily put in coverage for the second Pats game and onward. People try to make a point in defense of Mangini that for the first 11 games the Jets were near the top in sacks (but not pressures). That was because he had Pace attacking more. With the Pats game (he had Pace more in coverage) and even more after that. People attribute that to Harris getting hurt, but it was a wholely reactionary move by Mangini showing his natural passive tendencies. Mangini did more damage to this defense than people want to blame him for. As you mentioned, he was passive and failed to adjust as the Pats DC and did the same here. The home games were brutal outside of the Cardinals game where they really brought the house after Warner. I guess the Rams game as well, but the Rams just didnt show up and it was basically a party for the Jets and the fans in attendance from snap number 1. The Jets rarely brought Pace in after the QB. I remember seeing them line him up in the first Dolphin game on TV and seeing him freakishly get to Chad and started thinking "wow we really have something here". The last guy make that kind of move was Abraham. And then he was just running around covering the TE the rest of the year outside of the Arizona game. Evrytime it just seemed like the Jets would simply rush 3 guys. You watch Ryan Fitzpatrick stand there for 10 minutes and you see Coleman on his back, Ellis doubled, and Pouha getting nowhere and you just dont understand what they are doing. It was rare that the team ever brought more than 4. When they did it was more of the Bowens "spy" type pressure where they wait until the play develops before they decide to go after the QB or not. By then the opposition is better prepared to pick it up unless they find a big hole to run through. Those sack numbers early on were misleading for 2 reasons. One I think alot of our pressure actually came from blitzes from the safeties and corners last year. That was actually where we seemed to have the most success. The other thing is that again we just never adjusted to the league adjustments against us. Early on we did get some sacks because teams did not know where and when we were coming from. I think that is a major reason why Ellis got so many sacks early on. He was just getting one guy blocking him and it was more or less no different than the old 4-3 days when Abe got so much attention. Linemen thought Pace was coming. They thought Harris was coming. They thought BT might be coming. It did create confusion and Ellis took advantage of it. Eventually I think teams just realized these guys never come after the QB. Double Ellis and clog the lanes and they will never send anyone. And we never did. The other problem is that its not just sacks. Its all about hurries and making the QB think someone is coming even if they are not. Manginis philosophy was all about confusing the QB before the snap, but it never worked and he refused to think you can confuse a QB simply by smacking him around on a few plays here and there. That is really the heart and soul of the Ravens defense. Smack the QB around even if you are not registering a sack. I dont know how good or bad our defense will be next year, but I am very thankful that all these years of passive football is finally gone from my team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman81 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Or how much pressure forced interceptions or hurried passes/incompletions Exactly! They didn't have more sacks then us, but I can guarantee you that percentage wise they were way ahead of us on QB pressure. You watch a Ravens game and at least 55-60% of the time you see the QB hurried at least. And when a QB is uncomfortable and hurried what happens, you get a ball hawker like Reed making big plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Good stuff, Jason. I really question how Mangini's mind works. The biggest success against the Pats he had was the second Pats matchup of his career when he brought pressure from everywhere and confused Brady, but he never tried that again. Even in the playoff matchup he didn't bring the pressure. This year, the Jets beat the Pats because of Favre's masterful game and Cassel missing wide-open receivers in the first half. Mangini didn't bring the pressure and there were no sacks and minimal hurries. It's as if Mangini thought Belichick would adjust to the pressure in other games, so Mangini did a pre-emptive adjustment and became locked-in to that plan regardless if it worked or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Agreed, but there have been so many people saying "we need to get after the QB more", but it is not that simple. sacks are very misleading, as you have pointed out ( I think ) and blitzing without good coverage just leads to giving up big plays, so I agree with you there as well that it is not a simple as just blitzing however, football is a violent aggressive borderline bloodsport, and the players simply respond better overall to having an agressive scheme, they seem to thrive on it. pressure leads to mistakes, and hits on the QB's can lead to a team abandoning the deep passing game, etc etc etc my concern here with rex is we must address the CB and ILB position. Out LB's really can't cover anyone (opposing TE abuse from '08 as evidence) as simms pointed out durin the steelers game, their defense is so much better this year because they can cover behind the blitz, and tomlin may have added that to the mix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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