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Parcells back into coaching!!!

bobbyjet69

By bobbyjet69
in NY Jets Forum

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I like him for the job he did here, making this franchise respectable, and wish him well.But it's kind of sad. He isn't getting any younger, he's pushing 70 and has never been in good health.He's so devoid of joy or anything else in his life that he might die alone in some office park in Minnesota. He has all the monyey he could want.Yet some old guys, especially divorced ones, don't have much of a connection to their families; he is not the type to go watch his grandkid's soccer games on thw weekends. But with his money you would think following the ponies and having media types pay you a little to travel and watch football with free dinners, hotels and parties would be enough. Guess not.

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T0mShane

T0mShane

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Do you seriously think he did a great job in Miami?

Time will tell how he did in Miami, but Parcells has a track record of taking garbage teams and installing a culture of winning that sticks with a club after he's gone. In Miami, he's put in place three really good young LB's with Cam Wake, Karlos Dansby and Koa Misi, some good DL in Langford, Merling and (maybe) Jared Odrick. Also, Vontae Davis is a very good looking young corner. On offense, he's added Jake Long, Brandon Marshall, Davone Bess and Chad Henne (I know, I know, he sucks--or does he?). The cupboard is definitely not left bare for the next HC. Sparano is a nitwit figurehead who lost all of his credibility when Parcells got sick of shaking hands with J-Lo and Da Birdman and bailed.

The Parcells track record:

New England Patriots

Three seasons prior to his arrival: 1990: 1-15; 1991: 6-10; 1992: 2-14 (19%)

Parcells coaching record: 32-32, Super Bowl appearance.

Key players added: Lawyer Milloy, Tedy Bruschi, Ty Law, Curtis Martin, Willie McGinest, Drew Bledsoe, Chris Slade, Troy Brown, Adam Vinatieri.

Three seasons AFTER Parcells: 1997: 10-6; 1998: 9-7; 1999: 8-8 (56%) HC: Pete Carroll

New York Jets

Three seasons prior to his arrival: 1994: 6-10; 1995: 3-13; 1996: 1-15 (21%)

Parcells coaching record: 29-19, AFCC Game.

Key players added: Curtis Martin, Chad Pennington, John Abraham, Shaun Ellis, Bryan Cox, Vinny Testaverde, Kevin Mawae, James Farrior, Leon Johnson, Jason Ferguson, Curtis Martin, Jason Fabini, Randy Thomas.

Three seasons AFTER Parcells: 2000: 9-7; 2001: 10-6; 2002: 9-7 (58%) HC: Al Groh, Herm Edwards

Dallas Cowboys

Three seasons prior to his arrival: 2000: 5-11; 2001: 5-11; 2002: 5-11 (31%)

Parcells coaching record: 34-30

Key players added: DeMarcus Ware, Terrance Newman, Jason Witten, Marion Barber, Jay Ratliff, Chris Canty, Tony Romo, Miles Austin

Three seasons AFTER Parcells: 2007: 13-3; 2008: 9-7; 2009: 11-5 (69%) HC: Wade Phillips

Now, none of this is to say that Parcells is a great GM and he's especially spotty (at best) with the draft, but as a team-builder/franchise-fixer his record is pretty solid. The guys has never taken a team and made it worse, the guys has turned the team around every time. That he was able to do it with so-so drafts is all the more impressive. Then when you consider the loser head coaches that followed him (Carroll, Groh, Herm, Wade), it's a pretty solid testament to his ability to install a foundation for success. He simply finds winners and puts them in uniform for the team he works for.

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billo83

billo83

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Now, none of this is to say that Parcells is a great GM and he's especially spotty (at best) with the draft, but as a team-builder/franchise-fixer his record is pretty solid. The guys has never taken a team and made it worse, the guys has turned the team around every time. That he was able to do it with so-so drafts is all the more impressive. Then when you consider the loser head coaches that followed him (Carroll, Groh, Herm, Wade), it's a pretty solid testament to his ability to install a foundation for success. He simply finds winners and puts them in uniform for the team he works for.

There are problems with your replies to my OP. First, I never said the fat Tuna destroyed any teams. I said he was average at best in a non Head Coaching role (which I still stand by). Most of this post reflects his coaching influence, which is totally different than what I was stating. In fact, you agree with my basic premise in the bolded caption above.

Now for the rest of this post, I am throwing out Dallas and NE* since he was not the GM/VP for either of these teams (not to mention that the success of those teams are largely due to Jones, Kraft, Brady and Belicheat). So you are really left with the Jets and Phags.

The Jets is a tough one to debate because he was both GM and HC. I will argue that most of the success was due to his coaching and not the GM role. So pretty much I think we can only look at the one year he was only the GM. He was the one who hired Groh, and we know how that turned out. The Tuna hand picked his successor, Boobway, and we all know how that turned out. In fact, the Tuna's biggest non coaching achievement with the Jets was bringing in your buddy Tanny and that was as a cap guru.

Now on to the Phags. Yes he has brought in some good talent (almost all on defense) but is that really surprising considering he took over a 1-15 team with the 1st overall pick in the draft? There really wasn't anywhere to go but up. It looks like he made a big mistake in Henne, and Marshall is proving to be a malcontent. The Sparano hiring is also under his watch. But what were his results here? 2 non playoff seasons and one playoff game where they were completely destroyed (after a creampuff of a schedule for the regular season I might add).

You also fail to take account his quitting on these teams and the effect that has had. I don't think you can argue that the Phags are a team in turmoil right now due to his actions. He also quit on the Jets when Woody basically gave him a blank check to stay on. He then left us with Boobway. The Jets stayed a medicore team until Rex Ryan was hired.

Ultimately you have to look at his record as a GM/VP, which as I described above is mediocre at best.

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Sperm Edwards

Sperm Edwards

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Time will tell how he did in Miami, but Parcells has a track record of taking garbage teams and installing a culture of winning that sticks with a club after he's gone. In Miami, he's put in place three really good young LB's with Cam Wake, Karlos Dansby and Koa Misi, some good DL in Langford, Merling and (maybe) Jared Odrick. Also, Vontae Davis is a very good looking young corner. On offense, he's added Jake Long, Brandon Marshall, Davone Bess and Chad Henne (I know, I know, he sucks--or does he?). The cupboard is definitely not left bare for the next HC. Sparano is a nitwit figurehead who lost all of his credibility when Parcells got sick of shaking hands with J-Lo and Da Birdman and bailed.

The Parcells track record:

New England Patriots

Three seasons prior to his arrival: 1990: 1-15; 1991: 6-10; 1992: 2-14 (19%)

Parcells coaching record: 32-32, Super Bowl appearance.

Key players added: Lawyer Milloy, Tedy Bruschi, Ty Law, Curtis Martin, Willie McGinest, Drew Bledsoe, Chris Slade, Troy Brown, Adam Vinatieri.

Three seasons AFTER Parcells: 1997: 10-6; 1998: 9-7; 1999: 8-8 (56%) HC: Pete Carroll

New York Jets

Three seasons prior to his arrival: 1994: 6-10; 1995: 3-13; 1996: 1-15 (21%)

Parcells coaching record: 29-19, AFCC Game.

Key players added: Curtis Martin, Chad Pennington, John Abraham, Shaun Ellis, Bryan Cox, Vinny Testaverde, Kevin Mawae, James Farrior, Leon Johnson, Jason Ferguson, Curtis Martin, Jason Fabini, Randy Thomas.

Three seasons AFTER Parcells: 2000: 9-7; 2001: 10-6; 2002: 9-7 (58%) HC: Al Groh, Herm Edwards

Dallas Cowboys

Three seasons prior to his arrival: 2000: 5-11; 2001: 5-11; 2002: 5-11 (31%)

Parcells coaching record: 34-30

Key players added: DeMarcus Ware, Terrance Newman, Jason Witten, Marion Barber, Jay Ratliff, Chris Canty, Tony Romo, Miles Austin

Three seasons AFTER Parcells: 2007: 13-3; 2008: 9-7; 2009: 11-5 (69%) HC: Wade Phillips

Now, none of this is to say that Parcells is a great GM and he's especially spotty (at best) with the draft, but as a team-builder/franchise-fixer his record is pretty solid. The guys has never taken a team and made it worse, the guys has turned the team around every time. That he was able to do it with so-so drafts is all the more impressive. Then when you consider the loser head coaches that followed him (Carroll, Groh, Herm, Wade), it's a pretty solid testament to his ability to install a foundation for success. He simply finds winners and puts them in uniform for the team he works for.

Problem with this is you're only including GOOD key players he brought in. He also brings in "key" players that are not so hot.

I would count Otis Smith as a pretty key player he brought to the Jets being that the guy was our starting corner for 34 games in 2 years. And while it was Parcells who ultimately signed off on it, the truth is BB is responsible for bringing Vinny to the Jets and Parcells said as much himself that year.

That also goes for draft picks. If you want to count John Abraham, you can also count Dorian Boose and Rick Terry.

He may have brought Farrior here, but he also benched him after his rookie season and he was 2nd string until Parcells was no longer connected to the Jets. So in terms of bringing Farrior here, that was a flop move for the Jets not a good one (made all the worse in that he was certainly not the 8th-best prospect that year; I don't recall him being expected to go in the top 15).

And "bringing in Farrior" - who hardly played for a #8 overall pick - was made all the worse by looking at the players we passed up drafting so we could trade down (Orlando Pace at #1. Then we traded down to #6 where Walter Jones was the only obvious pick. Trades out of that spot also to #8 and I think we got like a 4th or a 6th rounder in return for that move). Then benches that player after 1 season in favor of Bryan Cox and then Roman Phifer. Then he dumps Phifer, who starts for a couple of NE's superbowl teams.

Other key players he brought here were Steve Atwater, Ernie Logan, Rick Lyle, Anthony Pleasant, Jerome Henderson, John Hall, Keith Byars, and Pepper Johnson. Anyone recall exactly what we got back in return for 26 year-old Hugh Douglas? I do, and I've used toilet paper to wipe away more valuable things.

Like others have mentioned, there are parts of me that will always be thankful to Parcells for turning this team from a punchline at 1-15 to <30 minutes from the superbowl in 2 years. We've stayed relevant for most seasons since 1997 even if we didn't ultimately win anything and his slimy a-hole-ness led to BB moving to NE. But his strength was as a coach, bringing order and discipline (Elliot/Fabini notwithstanding, lol) to a franchise in total chaos where the inmates run the asylum, and also in bringing in very good coaches to work under him more than an evaluator of great talent and great value. He pissed away high picks for low ones like they all had the same value and paid a lot of mediocre (not to mention over the hill) players like superstars in their primes.

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T0mShane

T0mShane

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I am throwing out Dallas and NE* since he was not the GM/VP for either of these teams (not to mention that the success of those teams are largely due to Jones, Kraft, Brady and Belicheat). So you are really left with the Jets and Phags.

I'll give you a shiny nickel if you can tell me who the GM of the 93-97 Patriots was.

The Jets is a tough one to debate because he was both GM and HC. I will argue that most of the success was due to his coaching and not the GM role. So pretty much I think we can only look at the one year he was only the GM. He was the one who hired Groh, and we know how that turned out. The Tuna hand picked his successor, Boobway, and we all know how that turned out. In fact, the Tuna's biggest non coaching achievement with the Jets was bringing in your buddy Tanny and that was as a cap guru.

The players that Parcells brought to the Jets--Martin, Mawae, Chad, Pennington, Coles, Ellis, etc., were the backbone of the same teams that Herm made the playoffs with. Parcells' players carried the Jets franchise for another 6-7 years after he was gone. Where does Parcells' coaching come into play half a decade after he's gone?

Ultimately you have to look at his record as a GM/VP, which as I described above is mediocre at best.

How can you arbitrarily delineate where his coaching ended and his ability to acquire the right players began? The bottom line is that in every job he's had he's almost completely reversed that team's records, and that's not even including the successes he had while coaching them. He takes sh*t rosters and turns them into very good to contending rosters, so much so that the garbage coaches that followed him were able to have success with the players he left behind.

Problem with this is you're only including GOOD key players he brought in. He also brings in "key" players that are not so hot.

I would count Otis Smith as a pretty key player he brought to the Jets being that the guy was our starting corner for 34 games in 2 years. And while it was Parcells who ultimately signed off on it, the truth is BB is responsible for bringing Vinny to the Jets and Parcells said as much himself that year.

That also goes for draft picks. If you want to count John Abraham, you can also count Dorian Boose and Rick Terry.

He may have brought Farrior here, but he also benched him after his rookie season and he was 2nd string until Parcells was no longer connected to the Jets. So in terms of bringing Farrior here, that was a flop move for the Jets not a good one (made all the worse in that he was certainly not the 8th-best prospect that year; I don't recall him being expected to go in the top 15).

And "bringing in Farrior" - who hardly played for a #8 overall pick - was made all the worse by looking at the players we passed up drafting so we could trade down (Orlando Pace at #1. Then we traded down to #6 where Walter Jones was the only obvious pick. Trades out of that spot also to #8 and I think we got like a 4th or a 6th rounder in return for that move). Then benches that player after 1 season in favor of Bryan Cox and then Roman Phifer. Then he dumps Phifer, who starts for a couple of NE's superbowl teams.

Other key players he brought here were Steve Atwater, Ernie Logan, Rick Lyle, Anthony Pleasant, Jerome Henderson, John Hall, Keith Byars, and Pepper Johnson. Anyone recall exactly what we got back in return for 26 year-old Hugh Douglas? I do, and I've used toilet paper to wipe away more valuable things.

It's undeniable that Parcells made some brutal acquisitions, wasted a bunch of money on over-the-hill FA's and put together some drafts that can only be described as catastrophic. I listed the "Key players" that Parcells left on the roster when he quit each job only to point out that, despite his many misfires, he still leaves behind vastly improved rosters with pretty solid foundations. When the likes of Al Groh and Herm and Pete Carroll can walk in the door and have immediate success, that's evidence enough that someone left behind a pretty good bunch of players for their loser asses to work with. This isn't to say that Parcells was a great evaluator, per se, just that he has always been able to fix even the most pitiful teams, leaving behind legit NFL franchises at every stop. This was in response to those trying to paint Parcells as some senile, Matt Millen-type bungler who keeps getting jobs based solely on name recognition.

Like others have mentioned, there are parts of me that will always be thankful to Parcells for turning this team from a punchline at 1-15 to <30 minutes from the superbowl in 2 years. We've stayed relevant for most seasons since 1997 even if we didn't ultimately win anything and his slimy a-hole-ness led to BB moving to NE. But his strength was as a coach, bringing order and discipline (Elliot/Fabini notwithstanding, lol) to a franchise in total chaos where the inmates run the asylum, and also in bringing in very good coaches to work under him more than an evaluator of great talent and great value. He pissed away high picks for low ones like they all had the same value and paid a lot of mediocre (not to mention over the hill) players like superstars in their primes.

I agree with all of this, and I'd only add that Parcells' presence seems to instantly change the perception and performance of whatever team he touches, no matter where he goes. Whatever it is that he does, it works. True, he's flaky and overly sensitive, and he's left every team essentially in the lurch when he became annoyed with his owners and bailed on them, but he's still worth every penny he gets, imo. The guy is like Harvey Keitel in "Pulp Fiction."

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Scott Dierking

Scott Dierking

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I'll give you a shiny nickel if you can tell me who the GM of the 93-97 Patriots was.

The players that Parcells brought to the Jets--Martin, Mawae, Chad, Pennington, Coles, Ellis, etc., were the backbone of the same teams that Herm made the playoffs with. Parcells' players carried the Jets franchise for another 6-7 years after he was gone. Where does Parcells' coaching come into play half a decade after he's gone?

How can you arbitrarily delineate where his coaching ended and his ability to acquire the right players began? The bottom line is that in every job he's had he's almost completely reversed that team's records, and that's not even including the successes he had while coaching them. He takes sh*t rosters and turns them into very good to contending rosters, so much so that the garbage coaches that followed him were able to have success with the players he left behind.

It's undeniable that Parcells made some brutal acquisitions, wasted a bunch of money on over-the-hill FA's and put together some drafts that can only be described as catastrophic. I listed the "Key players" that Parcells left on the roster when he quit each job only to point out that, despite his many misfires, he still leaves behind vastly improved rosters with pretty solid foundations. When the likes of Al Groh and Herm and Pete Carroll can walk in the door and have immediate success, that's evidence enough that someone left behind a pretty good bunch of players for their loser asses to work with. This isn't to say that Parcells was a great evaluator, per se, just that he has always been able to fix even the most pitiful teams, leaving behind legit NFL franchises at every stop. This was in response to those trying to paint Parcells as some senile, Matt Millen-type bungler who keeps getting jobs based solely on name recognition.

I agree with all of this, and I'd only add that Parcells' presence seems to instantly change the perception and performance of whatever team he touches, no matter where he goes. Whatever it is that he does, it works. True, he's flaky and overly sensitive, and he's left every team essentially in the lurch when he became annoyed with his owners and bailed on them, but he's still worth every penny he gets, imo. The guy is like Harvey Keitel in "Pulp Fiction."

The way Parcells left and how he tried to hamstring this franchise as he was leaving will always leave a sour taste in my mouth.

The re-signing of Cox and Lewis, as he was walking out the door showed how he cared for the players more than he id the franchise. Really, a multi-million dollar contract for Cox, who was coming off a broken leg only weeks before?

He accomplished a lot for this organization, but ultimately did not care about it, His actions said that. I hold no reverence for that.

I admire his abilities, but his loyalties turn me off.

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billo83

billo83

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The players that Parcells brought to the Jets--Martin, Mawae, Chad, Pennington, Coles, Ellis, etc., were the backbone of the same teams that Herm made the playoffs with. Parcells' players carried the Jets franchise for another 6-7 years after he was gone. Where does Parcells' coaching come into play half a decade after he's gone?

Where to begin?

First let me say that I think you're position is more of the great fatness as a HC and not as an exclusive GM/VP which is what I'm commenting on. You bring up his time with the Pats* and Boys which he was the HC. There's no question he was a great HC. But as a GM/VP that is not the case.

Let me also say that basing a GM on teams performances after he quits/fired has its flaws. How do you measure the impact of the current GM, owner, and HC on the team, versus what the prior GM did? In the fat Tuna's case, that is really impossible since he quits in the middle of each rebuilding process.

Further, you bring up that the rosters and team has improved during his short stints. Well when he takes over 1-15 teams that have the 1st overall pick in the draft, is that really surprising? There's nowhere to go but up!

No onto your quote above, this is the biggest problem I have with your argument. You want to give his fatness all of the credit in the world for bringing in these "key" players, but conveniently leave out the horrible draft picks and free agent signings,and terrible decisions that caused missed opportunities that had long term effects on the organization. How about drafting the likes of Rick Terry and Dorian Boose, and forcing Hugh Douglas out of town for chicken feed? Here's my biggest beef against the great one: He has the opportunity to get Peyton Manning, but blew it with his stubborness. Then what does he do? Trades down and passes on all world Orlando Pace, trades down again and takes Farrior who did jack for us and was gone in 3 years.

I wonder how many SB appearances we would have had if the fatness hadn't blown it with Peyton? I wonder how much better the Jets would have been with Orlando Pace?

So if you want to talk about the effect of the "key" players on the team after he left, you have to account for the effects of the blown opportunities as I described above as well. Then the Tunas effect is much different then you describe when taking in all of the factors.

So now lets look at the job of Boobway (his hand picked successor) and Herm: 39-41 and 2-3 in post season, no SB or AFCC games. Sounds somewhat mediocre to me.

Now lets look at the Phags: Quits yet again, and mid season at that. He has added good players on D, but the O is in shambles. His GM is a joke, and the team is in disarray. 2 losing seasons out of 3 and a blowout playoff loss. Sure the team is better than what he took over, but as I said earlier, it's not too hard to improve from 1-15.

Again, mediocre at best as an exclusive GM/VP.

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T0mShane

T0mShane

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Where to begin?

First let me say that I think you're position is more of the great fatness as a HC and not as an exclusive GM/VP which is what I'm commenting on. You bring up his time with the Pats* and Boys which he was the HC. There's no question he was a great HC. But as a GM/VP that is not the case.

Let me also say that basing a GM on teams performances after he quits/fired has its flaws. How do you measure the impact of the current GM, owner, and HC on the team, versus what the prior GM did? In the fat Tuna's case, that is really impossible since he quits in the middle of each rebuilding process.

Further, you bring up that the rosters and team has improved during his short stints. Well when he takes over 1-15 teams that have the 1st overall pick in the draft, is that really surprising? There's nowhere to go but up!

No onto your quote above, this is the biggest problem I have with your argument. You want to give his fatness all of the credit in the world for bringing in these "key" players, but conveniently leave out the horrible draft picks and free agent signings,and terrible decisions that caused missed opportunities that had long term effects on the organization. How about drafting the likes of Rick Terry and Dorian Boose, and forcing Hugh Douglas out of town for chicken feed? Here's my biggest beef against the great one: He has the opportunity to get Peyton Manning, but blew it with his stubborness. Then what does he do? Trades down and passes on all world Orlando Pace, trades down again and takes Farrior who did jack for us and was gone in 3 years.

I wonder how many SB appearances we would have had if the fatness hadn't blown it with Peyton? I wonder how much better the Jets would have been with Orlando Pace?

So if you want to talk about the effect of the "key" players on the team after he left, you have to account for the effects of the blown opportunities as I described above as well. Then the Tunas effect is much different then you describe when taking in all of the factors.

So now lets look at the job of Boobway (his hand picked successor) and Herm: 39-41 and 2-3 in post season, no SB or AFCC games. Sounds somewhat mediocre to me.

Now lets look at the Phags: Quits yet again, and mid season at that. He has added good players on D, but the O is in shambles. His GM is a joke, and the team is in disarray. 2 losing seasons out of 3 and a blowout playoff loss. Sure the team is better than what he took over, but as I said earlier, it's not too hard to improve from 1-15.

Again, mediocre at best as an exclusive GM/VP.

Your whole argument is this: Every team Parcells has been with becomes magically resurrected (even after he's gone) despite Parcells' vast failures with personnel because he's such a great coach. Plus, he's fat.

Trivia bonus:

Who were the Pats' and Cowboys GM's when Parcells was at those jobs?

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billo83

billo83

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Your whole argument is this: Every team Parcells has been with becomes magically resurrected (even after he's gone) despite Parcells' vast failures with personnel because he's such a great coach. Plus, he's fat.

Trivia bonus:

Who were the Pats' and Cowboys GM's when Parcells was at those jobs?

Apparently you choose to ignore what I keep saying - I'm only evaluating the Tuna on his exclusive GM/VP role, not anything tied to his coaching which is not in dispute. I will not debate any further until you can get that into your head.

Yes the Tuna is fat, both in the head and body. He is also a Big Time Quitter.

Trivia Bonus #1 - Who has owned the Cowboys for the last 20+ years?

Trivia Bonus #2 - What Head Coach forced his way out of town after complaining that he does not get to buy the groceries?

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BP

BP

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Trivia Bonus #2 - What Head Coach forced his way out of town after complaining that he does not get to buy the groceries?

I keep hearing that. he was over ruled ONCE in New England, and that was all it took. and that was over Terry Glenn (in 1996, his last year there)

So, who was the GM in New England?

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