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105 replies to this topic

#1 Jetknowledge

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 01:24 AM

Clearly we have a great defensive base.

Games are won in the trenches and our line is strong with potential.

Our backfield as a unit maybe the most talented in the league.

And Decker is looking the part with geno & Vick who can add another dimension to the offense.

Seriously how is no 1 noticing our O line is dreadful?

Last year our best line man was Austin Howard, who is gone now.

Mangold & Ferguson play has been declining over the years, Willie colon does not seem to be all that good by play, but he has the mentality that you can admire & who else gives you a reason to believe?

If holes don't open and qbs dont have time in the pocket we will go no where!
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#2 artemusclyde

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:04 AM

You could've simply said Geno Smith and the point would have been gotten across just as clearly as your post.


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#3 WickedAwesome

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:13 AM

Jets are definitely turning it around for a change... which makes me think Idzik will be fired by 2016 so that Woody can replace him with Tebow or Skip Bayless.

 

Your defensive line is nasty, you have good depth at RB, some decent WR's, and finally some things going for you.

 

That will all be masked by the fact that your offensive line is swiss cheese and Geno can't read defenses, and there's nothing that can be done because the only thing seperating Michael Vick from Mark Sanchez is skin color and a butt fumble.

 

Oh, and speed, which in Vick's case just means he can get to wherever he's going to fumble faster.

 

I don't even think Geno is meant to be your franchise quarterback. I think he was just a no loss gamble to hold you over while you build the rest of your team.


Edited by WickedAwesome, 01 August 2014 - 04:14 AM.

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#4 Better2bgreenthanblue

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 06:29 AM

"Geno can't read defenses" I question. I think the juries out on Geno. If he continues to improve and develop he could be well on his way to becoming a top 10 QB in the next 2-3 years. I also think Winters is developing and other young lineman like Aboushi or Dozier show promise. I see this years team as young and loaded with potential. Granted not everyone will blossom but some will and next years offseason we may have only a couple holes to fill to become legit. IMO 5 key young guys who could step up are Geno, Milliner, McDougle, D Davis, Pryor (and I really hope Hill as a bonus).

Edited by Better2bgreenthanblue, 01 August 2014 - 06:30 AM.

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#5 slats

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 07:59 AM

For the most part, I like what they're doing with the OL. Could they do more? Yes. But they've got the two well paid first rounders in Mangold and Brick, which makes it hard to add much more cost. The only OL position I'd take in the first round is the LT, anyway, and they have one of those. I like drafting OL in the third round and later (like they've done the last two years), and adding reasonably priced free agents like Colon and Giacomini. The only thing I really would've done differently this year is hit the position again in the sixth or seventh, but really can't complain with the way they're going about it.

The OL, IMHO, is a unit that can be coached up into effectiveness as long as the individual parts are competent. Moreso than any other unit on a football team. Giacomini was good enough to win a Super Bowl title last year, the guys drafted last year should be better, everyone seems to like Dozier... I'm willing to wait and see what happens there.
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#6 bealeb319

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 08:05 AM

I wonder if part of our problem with our offense is that they play the jets defense during training camp and lose all confidence?


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#7 slats

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 08:10 AM

From yesterday's camp report:

4. Offensive line fared well in drills with the D-line. The defensive line is the unit that often gets talked about, but in one-on-one drills, Willie Colon got pushed backwards a little but stood up Sheldon Richardson, and you could hear their collision as far away as Ithaca; Nick Mangold held Kenrick Ellis up; Muhammad Wilkerson got inside against Brian Winters but Winters got his hands up and didn't let him past; and Jason Babin tried going outside then inside against D'Brickashaw Ferguson, but Ferguson deftly moved his feet to keep Babin in front of him.

That's going against the DL that Rex Ryan the general consensus says might be the best in the league.
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#8 Jetlife33

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 08:14 AM

The Jets OL if I'm not mistaken was great at run blocking last year, not so much pass protection, but that's because there was a rookie QB hanging on to the ball too long. In the WCO there should be many quick throws. I think the OL can get by with an improvered Brian Winters and a healthy Willie Colon. Plus guys like Oboushi and Dozier seem to be impressing.

Edited by Jetlife33, 01 August 2014 - 08:15 AM.

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#9 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 08:21 AM

Clearly we have a great defensive base.

Games are won in the trenches and our line is strong with potential.

Our backfield as a unit maybe the most talented in the league.

And Decker is looking the part with geno & Vick who can add another dimension to the offense.

Seriously how is no 1 noticing our O line is dreadful?

Last year our best line man was Austin Howard, who is gone now.

Mangold & Ferguson play has been declining over the years, Willie colon does not seem to be all that good by play, but he has the mentality that you can admire & who else gives you a reason to believe?

If holes don't open and qbs dont have time in the pocket we will go no where!

 

Seattle had the #27 ranked OL last year according to PFF (FO ranks results, which credits the OL for having a good QB and a good RB, rather than the individuals' performances).

 

No one doubts a good line is preferable to a bad one (look no further than the 2009-2010 Jets to see the mediocrity it helped conceal). But barring having so many other top-ranked units like those Jets teams had, including its OL, this team will go as far as the QB takes them. Because while Wilson would surely do better on a top-5 line than a bottom-5 line, he'll also do better on a bottom-5 line than a Sanchez (or 2013-level Geno Smith) type will do behind a top-5 line.

 

Ultimately, the team is mostly going as far as the QB takes it.  He affects a lot more than the team's offensive passing stats.


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#10 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 08:37 AM

The Jets OL if I'm not mistaken was great at run blocking last year, not so much pass protection, but that's because there was a rookie QB hanging on to the ball too long. In the WCO there should be many quick throws. I think the OL can get by with an improvered Brian Winters and a healthy Willie Colon. Plus guys like Oboushi and Dozier seem to be impressing.

 

The 2013 OL was one of the lower-ranked run blocking squads in the league as I recall.  

 

Most of the pass-blocking woes were to Geno's blind side, and probably for a few reasons all working together.

 

First, it's his blind side to begin with.

 

Second, it was his rookie year (as you note) and he most definitely looked clueless at times. I take for granted that his awareness would be lower on the side of his body his back is facing. On his right side, he can still be clueless but would still see the pressure.

 

Last, the left side was the weakness. Ferguson gave up 8 sacks, but I don't know how much of that was him being obsessed with helping out someone else's responsibilities due to the Vlad/Winters combo. Even when he wasn't helping out to his right, I'm sure his mind was on it when his own guy wasn't rushing so wide to his left.  

 

Not any one thing on its own, though they're all significant, but all 3 together may add up to the product appearing worse than it was (outside of LG which was untenable from Sept through Nov outside of week 2 when Vlad handled Wilfat surprisingly). The rest of the line (Ferguson in particular) it's hard to know for sure without being in the team's film room and hearing the players' assessments of what went on. But my belief is that as the LG improves so will Ferguson.


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#11 SouthernJet

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 08:51 AM

Seattle had the #27 ranked OL last year according to PFF (FO ranks results, which credits the OL for having a good QB and a good RB, rather than the individuals' performances).

 

No one doubts a good line is preferable to a bad one (look no further than the 2009-2010 Jets to see the mediocrity it helped conceal). But barring having so many other top-ranked units like those Jets teams had, including its OL, this team will go as far as the QB takes them. Because while Wilson would surely do better on a top-5 line than a bottom-5 line, he'll also do better on a bottom-5 line than a Sanchez (or 2013-level Geno Smith) type will do behind a top-5 line.

 

Ultimately, the team is mostly going as far as the QB takes it.  He affects a lot more than the team's offensive passing stats.

ya, I saw Wilson play live several times down here and he 'hides' bad line play in many cases. I've seen it way too many times :(


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#12 JiF

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:00 AM

From yesterday's camp report:

4. Offensive line fared well in drills with the D-line. The defensive line is the unit that often gets talked about, but in one-on-one drills, Willie Colon got pushed backwards a little but stood up Sheldon Richardson, and you could hear their collision as far away as Ithaca; Nick Mangold held Kenrick Ellis up; Muhammad Wilkerson got inside against Brian Winters but Winters got his hands up and didn't let him past; and Jason Babin tried going outside then inside against D'Brickashaw Ferguson, but Ferguson deftly moved his feet to keep Babin in front of him.

That's going against the DL that Rex Ryan the general consensus says might be the best in the league.

This was going to be my point. Your not going to find a better situation for them to develop in camp. The DL is nasty and apparently Rex is throwing all sorts of looks at the O. If you can't get better practicing vs this D then there is problem.

Edited by JiF, 01 August 2014 - 09:00 AM.

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#13 nycdan

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:04 AM

The 2013 OL was one of the lower-ranked run blocking squads in the league as I recall.  

 

 

How much of that was due to the relatively anemic passing game allowing opposing defenses to cheat the run more than usual?


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#14 Jetlife33

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:20 AM

The 2013 OL was one of the lower-ranked run blocking squads in the league as I recall.

Most of the pass-blocking woes were to Geno's blind side, and probably for a few reasons all working together.

First, it's his blind side to begin with.

Second, it was his rookie year (as you note) and he most definitely looked clueless at times. I take for granted that his awareness would be lower on the side of his body his back is facing. On his right side, he can still be clueless but would still see the pressure.

Last, the left side was the weakness. Ferguson gave up 8 sacks, but I don't know how much of that was him being obsessed with helping out someone else's responsibilities due to the Vlad/Winters combo. Even when he wasn't helping out to his right, I'm sure his mind was on it when his own guy wasn't rushing so wide to his left.

Not any one thing on its own, though they're all significant, but all 3 together may add up to the product appearing worse than it was (outside of LG which was untenable from Sept through Nov outside of week 2 when Vlad handled Wilfat surprisingly). The rest of the line (Ferguson in particular) it's hard to know for sure without being in the team's film room and hearing the players' assessments of what went on. But my belief is that as the LG improves so will Ferguson.


Thanks for clarifying that Sperm, I stand corrected. Good point about the LG position effecting Brick. Hopefully Winters picks it up in year 2.
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#15 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:44 AM

How much of that was due to the relatively anemic passing game allowing opposing defenses to cheat the run more than usual?

 

I wasn't referring solely to run-blocking.  Despite what it seems by looking at team totals initially, Seattle does attempt to pass more than run. Watch a random game from last season and you'll see guys get into Seattle's backfield fast. Wilson runs around behind the LOS an awful lot. It's not your typical drop back, count to 2, then fire it in.

 

Truth is even Smith did that a lot last year (bad as he was on balance). There were a number of plays where the statue would have just taken his beating, but instead Smith ducked around or shifted to the side or just flat-out ran. In the past the complaints would have been that Michael Vick at his youngest couldn't have gotten a pass off there. Truth is he just had no pocket awareness (to complement his terrible accuracy). Now Smith didn't always complete a pass in those situations, and sometimes he turned it over anyway (because he was pretty bad and so were his targets), but at least he gave himself the chance that his line didn't give him. 


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#16 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:48 AM

Thanks for clarifying that Sperm, I stand corrected. Good point about the LG position effecting Brick. Hopefully Winters picks it up in year 2.


I'm not saying it definitely did, but it stands to reason it probably did (at least somewhat). It's hard enough worrying about his own man without trying to keep an eye on someone else's, even on downs where Ducasse/Winters DID hold their blocks. It had to always be on Ferguson's mind nearly every time Smith dropped back to pass.

I don't know. Maybe I just WISH that this was the case so I can have optimism about Ferguson (and Mangold) improving if we get average LG play or better.
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#17 Il Mostro

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:48 AM

Brick and Mangold will have bounce-back seasons (if only for their own career's sakes), Winters will be more than capable in his second year and Geno has figured out that his legs are an asset -- he will be known as Geno "Scatman" Smith.  All will be fine on the blind side.


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#18 Sperm Edwards

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:59 AM

Brick and Mangold will have bounce-back seasons (if only for their own career's sakes), Winters will be more than capable in his second year and Geno has figured out that his legs are an asset -- he will be known as Geno "Scatman" Smith.  All will be fine on the blind side.


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#19 stoicsentry

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:29 AM

Compare the sacks and pressures early last season vs. late. The difference is stark. Geno was causing a lot of those early sacks, and he progressed a lot in limiting them as the season went on. Winters was a rookie and not a good one at that, and Ferguson and Mangold both had to pick him up. This year, we have options. Either Winters has picked it up or he hasn't. If he hasn't, then we have guys like Aboushi and Dozier ready to step in.


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#20 #27TheDominator

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:49 AM

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#21 bitonti

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:01 AM

Once upon a time the Jets had 4 Pro Bowlers on the offensive line (Brick, Faneca, Mangold, Moore, Woody).

 

In the years that followed, Jets fans expected their OL to be this level of good. 

 

This line isn't as good as the Faneca line of 2009. But it's far from the team's biggest problem. 

 

Similar to how Jets fans expected every coaching staff to be as good as the Parcells/Belichek coaching staff of the late 90's. 


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#22 RutgersJetFan

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:10 AM

Once upon a time the Jets had 4 Pro Bowlers on the offensive line (Brick, Faneca, Mangold, Moore, Woody).

 

In the years that followed, Jets fans expected their OL to be this level of good.

 

This line isn't as good as the Faneca line of 2009. But it's far from the team's biggest problem. 

 

Similar to how Jets fans expected every coaching staff to be as good as the Parcells/Belichek coaching staff of the late 90's.

 

No. In the years that followed, Jets fans expected the organization to perform some sort of maintenance on the depth chart in order to make up for the inevitable losses. This isn't a matter of luck of the draw, from '06 to '12 the Jets used one early pick on OL and only developed one legit player. Despite everyone knowing Moore was approaching retirement and Woody was getting old. Jets fans certainly are not the smartest lot, but this one is on the Jets.


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#23 bitonti

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:15 AM

No. In the years that followed, Jets fans expected the organization to perform some sort of maintenance on the depth chart in order to make up for the inevitable losses. This isn't a matter of luck of the draw, from '06 to '12 the Jets used one early pick on OL and only developed one legit player. Despite everyone knowing Moore was approaching retirement and Woody was getting old. Jets fans certainly are not the smartest lot, but this one is on the Jets.

 

maybe that's true to an extent but replacing Faneca (a 9x Pro Bowler) was not necessarily an easy task, even if they drafted a lineman in rd 1. Similarly Woody was a lightning strike, another multiple Pro Bowler who kinda fell into their laps. I agree they didn't do enough to maintain but it's also possible that group's high level would never be maintained.  It's especially hard to develop great backups (or use high draft picks on them) when these players never see the field. 


Edited by bitonti, 01 August 2014 - 11:16 AM.

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#24 Integrity28

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 11:45 AM

Clearly we have a great defensive base.

Games are won in the trenches and our line is strong with potential.

Our backfield as a unit maybe the most talented in the league.

And Decker is looking the part with geno & Vick who can add another dimension to the offense.

Seriously how is no 1 noticing our O line is dreadful?

Last year our best line man was Austin Howard, who is gone now.

Mangold & Ferguson play has been declining over the years, Willie colon does not seem to be all that good by play, but he has the mentality that you can admire & who else gives you a reason to believe?

If holes don't open and qbs dont have time in the pocket we will go no where!

 

Adrian Peterson single-handedly gives the Vikings the best RB corps in the NFL.

 

Other than that, yeah, the O-line is a work in progress. Which is why it'll be important to have 2 QBs, both of whom are mobile, and a myriad of dump-off options like Chris Johnson, Daryl Richardson, Jace Amaro (in theory) for the QB to use as safety valves that we didn't have last year. Not to mention these are guys that can take a dump-off on a broken play and turn it into a big play.


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#25 Matt39

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 12:01 PM

A guard who can't pass block ruins an offense. Seattle protected Wilson decently, plus he's really good and he's elusive. Lynch breaks more tackles than anyone in football.

 

If Winters doesnt get his sh*t together it could be a long year again for the offense. He was JP Machado bad last year.


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