Clowney vs Williams

[Jet Nut]

Yeah definitely. Instead he was the number one overall pick, what a bunch of idiots in NFL front offices lol. If only they had you around to set them straight.

So Gholston was really good because the NFL thought he was worth a 6.  Gotcha

[Jet Nut]

It's not what I think , or what everyone else thinks, but what happens on the football field that matters. Khalil Mack is set up to have a monster year in 2015.( he doesn't have 10 plus sacks in 2015 it would be a failure)

.

They are playing that Seattle 4-3 under defense . It has a mixture of both the 3-4 defense, and the 4-3 defense. On the strong side ( where Te lines up). they employ Two defense lineman ( Dt) that are more like 3-4 defensive Lineman. ( both responsible for two gaps) Khalil Mack will play strong side Lb - near the line of scrimmage primarily rushing the Qb ( more as Olb in 3-4 ) where he would see the Te and the Rb trying to block him.( almost impossible for a Te to block him). on the weak side you have both defense lineman that play like a 4-3 defense line play( one Gap) .( inside out) 3 Techique Dt responsible for one gap and a defense lineman( Leo) way outside of the Tackle putting pressure on that gap. ( more like 3-4 olb). The strong safety moves up( plays like a Lb where you have every gap covered with the MLB and the Wlb.

Who on the Raiders do you think WONT have a monster break out year?

Who on he Raiders have you not hyped for a monster break out year......ever?

And by monster, is this like Jamrcus Russell's last season, the one where you predicted so precisely that he would be a top 5 QB. Or in your famous words, Elite! Or when you predicted that Carson Palmer would revert to old form and lead the Raiders to the playoffs as a top QB Lol

[Lupz27]

Im not really sure but it would be good to give Williams the benefit of the doubt. Though Clowney has the hype train behind him, if we were to go back one year and redraft that 1st pick by Houston I could make the argument that Khalil Mack should have been the choice.

Thats why you should wait 3 years to make said argument. Clowney was hurt last year, he could go bananas the next 2 years playing with Watt, and justify the number 1 overall selection.

[cant wait]

Thats why you should wait 3 years to make said argument. Clowney was hurt last year, he could go bananas the next 2 years playing with Watt, and justify the number 1 overall selection.

Clowney could definitely be a 20 sack guy in that D if he's healthy. I think his knees are going to cut his career short though. 5 years tops

[LionelRichie]

Clowney reminds me a little of Lavar Arrington. Ridiculous athlete, struggles in a system, and we'll see how he fares in the nfl. No way clowney lives up to the hype but he should still be a good nfl player - although micro-fracture surgery at 22 is not s good sign.

[BroadwayJoe12]

Dumb question. Leonard Williams is the greatest underrated and underdrafted prospect ever. He's like a Buddha, covered in hair. Like pizza but only if the toppings were the droppings of Jesus. Singlehandily the greatest pick ever to fall to 6.

Clowney, on the other hand, is David's brother. He is also a pizza but his toppings are rotten olives and the semen of Bette Midler.

 

Bette Midler now or 1974?

[Jet Nut]

Thats why you should wait 3 years to make said argument. Clowney was hurt last year, he could go bananas the next 2 years playing with Watt, and justify the number 1 overall selection.

So his senior year he was hurt part of the season, laid down the rest of the season.   His rookie year he gets hurt, bad.  microfusion knee surgery is no joke.  I cant think of an athlete whos come back 100% from that surgery.  

[win4ever]

I think if you are looking at the evaluation at the time of draft, then Clowney is better.  He has a better quickness, speed, agility, and attacks the QBs well.  The issue really is, how much does the surgery rob him of his explosion.  As Knicks fans can attest. Amare Stoudemire is nowhere near the star he once was after that surgery, and it has ruined a lot of careers that were once promising, including Allan Houston, Greg Oden, and the end of Tracy McGrady's career.  Even in baseball, Grady Sizemore was a stud before the injury, and now is a journeyman.  The surgery robs you of explosiveness, because the cartilage that is being replaced (or regrown) isn't nearly as strong, so it can't stand up to the rigors of continuous activity.  If the surgery is factored in, then the biggest strength of Clowney becomes his biggest question, subsequently bringing into question how explosive he can be on a play by play basis.  Playing DE/LB, I'm guessing he's very dependent on his knees to get the initial jump, and then use leverage to move around OL, so I think his talent takes a substantial hit.  With the injury factored in, I would take Williams because atleast he's not injured right now, and has very high potential himself.  

 

So to answer the question, regardless of contract situation, I would take Williams over Clowney because there is a substantial risk that Clowney is never the same again.  If we're talking on who had more talent at the draft?  It's Clowney.  

[cant wait]

I think if you are looking at the evaluation at the time of draft, then Clowney is better.  He has a better quickness, speed, agility, and attacks the QBs well.  The issue really is, how much does the surgery rob him of his explosion.  As Knicks fans can attest. Amare Stoudemire is nowhere near the star he once was after that surgery, and it has ruined a lot of careers that were once promising, including Allan Houston, Greg Oden, and the end of Tracy McGrady's career.  Even in baseball, Grady Sizemore was a stud before the injury, and now is a journeyman.  The surgery robs you of explosiveness, because the cartilage that is being replaced (or regrown) isn't nearly as strong, so it can't stand up to the rigors of continuous activity.  If the surgery is factored in, then the biggest strength of Clowney becomes his biggest question, subsequently bringing into question how explosive he can be on a play by play basis.  Playing DE/LB, I'm guessing he's very dependent on his knees to get the initial jump, and then use leverage to move around OL, so I think his talent takes a substantial hit.  With the injury factored in, I would take Williams because atleast he's not injured right now, and has very high potential himself.  

 

So to answer the question, regardless of contract situation, I would take Williams over Clowney because there is a substantial risk that Clowney is never the same again.  If we're talking on who had more talent at the draft?  It's Clowney.  

stoudemire played pretty well for a few years, but he was a shell of himself by 30

[win4ever]

stoudemire played pretty well for a few years, but he was a shell of himself by 30

He never seemed to gain the explosiveness he showed before the injury. Prior to the injury, he was just a monster, with size, speed, and the athletic ability to jump out of the gym. However, afterwards, had to reinvent himself in a way. The stats were good but the explosiveness was drastically reduced.

[Villain The Foe]

Thats why you should wait 3 years to make said argument. Clowney was hurt last year, he could go bananas the next 2 years playing with Watt, and justify the number 1 overall selection.

Though that statement is always used (and should indeed be done), when is it ever acted on? Im not saying that anyone is a bust here. Im saying that after year 1 Khalil Mack based on his own performance could have been the #1 pick in the draft and would have lived up to expectations. 

 

Sure, Clowney could go bananas the next 2 years playing along side Watt, but Khalil is already on that trajectory, and who is "he" playing with? No one close to the player Watt is thats for sure. 

[pdxgreen]

   Probably Williams.  Spurrier was having problems motivating Clowney to play hard the moment he stepped foot on campus.  Williams is a beast and should be a force for years.

[Lupz27]

Though that statement is always used (and should indeed be done), when is it ever acted on? Im not saying that anyone is a bust here. Im saying that after year 1 Khalil Mack based on his own performance could have been the #1 pick in the draft and would have lived up to expectations.

Sure, Clowney could go bananas the next 2 years playing along side Watt, but Khalil is already on that trajectory, and who is "he" playing with? No one close to the player Watt is thats for sure.

If we're going on performance after year 1 I'd argue ODB Jr. Should have been the 1st pick in the draft.

[Villain The Foe]

If we're going on performance after year 1 I'd argue ODB Jr. Should have been the 1st pick in the draft.

Though the comparison was between Mack and Clowney based on houston's pick, I could understand ODB being the best talent overall in the class. Houston really didnt have a need for WR at that moment. Granted, they really didnt have a need for DE/OLB as much as they did QB, but I believe it was a mixture of need and best available player. Even I slept on ODB. After going back and watching his college games it was obvious that I didnt see enough of him when I was giving my opinion on the WR's of that class. ODB definitely showed imo that he was a better overall WR than dude drafted by the Bills. ODB is great, and I mean the word great. I dont think that he would have a similar season with Fitz throwing the ball though. I think ODB fell into the right situation with Manning. Its crazy because I dont have a hatred for the Giants like many Jet fans do. I've always liked Eli, but I grew an even bigger appreciation for him after he dealt those critical blows to the Pats during those SB runs. 

 

ODB with Eli Manning will be great to see the next two years. Hopefully Nassib can keep up the pace once its his time to take over. 

[cant wait]

He never seemed to gain the explosiveness he showed before the injury. Prior to the injury, he was just a monster, with size, speed, and the athletic ability to jump out of the gym. However, afterwards, had to reinvent himself in a way. The stats were good but the explosiveness was drastically reduced.

He got in when he was 22 and went on to make 5 all star games but he deteriorated pretty fast-- I would consider him a best case scenario unlike Greg oden for example

[Raideraholic]

Who on the Raiders do you think WONT have a monster break out year?

Who on he Raiders have you not hyped for a monster break out year......ever?

And by monster, is this like Jamrcus Russell's last season, the one where you predicted so precisely that he would be a top 5 QB. Or in your famous words, Elite! Or when you predicted that Carson Palmer would revert to old form and lead the Raiders to the playoffs as a top QB Lol

I was on record picking Jamarcus Russell over Calvin Johnson. When you feel a Qb is a franchise Qb ,you take him over the great Wr every time. Ozzie Newsome had Russell graded the highest prospect he had ever graded.( that's coming from one of the best draft evaluators). No one knows how a poor kid going to react getting a monster contract his rookie year. Hey the pick didn't work out , and in hindsight you would pick Calvin Johnson if you were making that choice now.( can't do that as what is done is history) .

Carson Palmer play in Arizona the last two years confirms my opinion on Carson Palmer at the time. your making like C Palmer played like Geno Smith , which isn't the case.

[The Crusher]

So Gholston was really good because the NFL thought he was worth a 6.  Gotcha

I was waiting for this.  Would have typed it if I didn't see it when I finish reading the thread.  Thanks.  LOL

[jvill 51]

So Gholston was really good because the NFL thought he was worth a 6.  Gotcha

 

Yeah, because that was clearly the point of my post

[Jet Nut]

Yeah, because that was clearly the point of my post

It was clearly the logic used to make the main point of your post.

[Jet Nut]

I was on record picking Jamarcus Russell over Calvin Johnson. When you feel a Qb is a franchise Qb ,you take him over the great Wr every time. Ozzie Newsome had Russell graded the highest prospect he had ever graded.( that's coming from one of the best draft evaluators). No one knows how a poor kid going to react getting a monster contract his rookie year. Hey the pick didn't work out , and in hindsight you would pick Calvin Johnson if you were making that choice now.( can't do that as what is done is history) .

Carson Palmer play in Arizona the last two years confirms my opinion on Carson Palmer at the time. your making like C Palmer played like Geno Smith , which isn't the case.

It's easy to like a player coming out of college. Russell turned one great seseason and a huge body and arm into a fortune by luring the one team that is sucked in by physical characteristics more than any other team in he history of the league and turn it into a fortune. But you predicted he would be a top 5, elite QB, best of the NFL after seeing him fail in the NFL for 2 seasons. Seeing the poor practice habits, poor video habits, poor offseason work outs, weight gains and poor dedication to his team and game. There's no excuse for this, you were just a homer. Another thing, the league is littered with players who bust and GMs who then say he was the best they saw. Easy to say that even if you know there wasn't a chance you ever would draft the guy. Why kick a guy, why not strike his agent etc. and of course if he said this it was about his physical tools, we all know about his body, ar, etc. doesn't mean Ozzie would ever draft the guy in round 1.

Going into his first season in Oakland I had said that Palmer was a shell of what he was early in his career. You argued he would go back to being a top QB. He wound up with a ton of turnovers right? He was exactly like Geno Smith. Without the excuse of being a rookie QB coming out of a spread offense and having to learn the game. And he threw 22 his first season in AZ too. Not the worst but not Elite

[jvill 51]

It was clearly the logic used to make the main point of your post.

Maybe I should have put it simpler. What I was trying to get across is that the idea that Clowney (the number 1 overall pick in 2014 and considered an all-world prospect for years before that) would be selling insurance right now if not for one highlight-reel play against Michigan is idiotic.

[Smashmouth]

a lot of people were comparing clowney to LT & bruce smith pre-draft

LT came out of college at 240 pounds and ran a 4.4 40 and was probably (not even including his pass rushing ability) the greatest LB I have ever seen in ALL aspects of the game.... Clowney no matter how good his measureables are should have never been compared to LT in the first place because they are 2 very different players . LT is also 1 of 2 defensive players named NFL MVP . LT used to make tackles on the opposite end of the field 30 yards down field he was an absolute monster. It takes a lot for me to say this because I hate the Giants but that LB crew of Lawrence Taylor, Harry Carson, Gary Reasons, and Carl Banks is the best in history and LT is the best all around LB who ever played the game. That's a bit much to compare Clowney too. These pre draft comparisons are beginning to get ridiculous

[NYs Stepchild]

If both were in same draft how much of a separation between the two would there be?

I think they're real close. Clowney has more freakish potential, but Williams has actually shown his.

They certainly don't play the same position. I'd love to have them both on opposite sides of the line.

[NYs Stepchild]

I read some articles where some talent guys said that Leonard Williams is Reggie White-like, talent-wise.  Not Reggie White, but Reggie White- like.  They are always comparing these guys. Still, I liked reading it.

I think it's Reggie like potential.

Sean Ellis is if floor. Sheldon Richards level is what he's likely to achieve, and Reggie White is his ceiling.

Richards could still improve, but Williams has a higher ceiling...and we still have Mo...if only we had this kind of riches at QB.

If things go well with the secondary, and the scheme, and we can take care of the ball on offense a little, we could potentially have one of the best defenses ever.

I'm thinking we clog up the middle of the field with a nickel base, and let the corners take the outside on an island.

No one is running on us, and if we give these guys 3.5 seconds of coverage someone will get to the QB. Certainly will be nowhere to step up to.

Coples had 39 total QB pressures, and Babin had 36. For some reason they only saw the field together a few times even though good things happened when they did.

I'm predicting a breakout season for Coples right now, and I hope we keep Babin one more year, and use them both on passing downs.

[Savage69]

I think it's Reggie like potential.

Sean Ellis is if floor. Sheldon Richards level is what he's likely to achieve, and Reggie White is his ceiling.

Richards could still improve, but Williams has a higher ceiling...and we still have Mo...if only we had this kind of riches at QB.

If things go well with the secondary, and the scheme, and we can take care of the ball on offense a little, we could potentially have one of the best defenses ever.

I'm thinking we clog up the middle of the field with a nickel base, and let the corners take the outside on an island.

No one is running on us, and if we give these guys 3.5 seconds of coverage someone will get to the QB. Certainly will be nowhere to step up to.

Coples had 39 total QB pressures, and Babin had 36. For some reason they only saw the field together a few times even though good things happened when they did.

I'm predicting a breakout season for Coples right now, and I hope we keep Babin one more year, and use them both on passing downs.

Reggie White was a beast from the start he racked up 70 sacks his first 4 seasons..

[NYs Stepchild]

LT came out of college at 240 pounds and ran a 4.4 40 and was probably (not even including his pass rushing ability) the greatest LB I have ever seen in ALL aspects of the game.... Clowney no matter how good his measureables are should have never been compared to LT in the first place because they are 2 very different players . LT is also 1 of 2 defensive players named NFL MVP . LT used to make tackles on the opposite end of the field 30 yards down field he was an absolute monster. It takes a lot for me to say this because I hate the Giants but that LB crew of Lawrence Taylor, Harry Carson, Gary Reasons, and Carl Banks is the best in history and LT is the best all around LB who ever played the game. That's a bit much to compare Clowney too. These pre draft comparisons are beginning to get ridiculous

Clowney reminds me of Peppers, not LT. That's if he can become more consistent. His motor, and his medical history are huge red flags.

Right now he reminds me more of Miliner than anyone else.

[NYs Stepchild]

Reggie White was a beast from the start he racked up 70 sacks his first 4 seasons..

Yeah well we'll see what his role is going to be. If he's playing 3, or 5 tech Williams is going to have a hell of a time getting that kind of production.

[win4ever]

He got in when he was 22 and went on to make 5 all star games but he deteriorated pretty fast-- I would consider him a best case scenario unlike Greg oden for example

 

Yeah Oden would be the worst case scenario, although I'm not sure how much it translates from basketball to football, because basketball players tend to wear out their knees more over time, and exert much more abuse on them, so I think Clowney has a better shot than them, but it's still significant.  Even a slight reduction in talent could have some lasting effects, should be interesting to see how it plays out.  

[FSU_Jet]

People are really blaming the injuries? really?

 

maybe if clowney did a better job of CONDITIONING HIMSELF in the offseason, he wouldn't be injured all the time!!!

[#27TheDominator]

Reggie White was a beast from the start he racked up 70 sacks his first 4 seasons..

 

Yeah, but he wasn't a rookie.  He started out in the USFL (RIP) for a couple of years.  Memphis Showboats, FTMFW!

[The Crusher]

Wow almost 4 pages discussing who is better?  A guy that got injured halfway through his rookie season to a guy yet to play his rookie season.. Like a bunch of Nostradamus around here. 

[Raideraholic]

It's easy to like a player coming out of college. Russell turned one great seseason and a huge body and arm into a fortune by luring the one team that is sucked in by physical characteristics more than any other team in he history of the league and turn it into a fortune. But you predicted he would be a top 5, elite QB, best of the NFL after seeing him fail in the NFL for 2 seasons. Seeing the poor practice habits, poor video habits, poor offseason work outs, weight gains and poor dedication to his team and game. There's no excuse for this, you were just a homer. Another thing, the league is littered with players who bust and GMs who then say he was the best they saw. Easy to say that even if you know there wasn't a chance you ever would draft the guy. Why kick a guy, why not strike his agent etc. and of course if he said this it was about his physical tools, we all know about his body, ar, etc. doesn't mean Ozzie would ever draft the guy in round 1.

Going into his first season in Oakland I had said that Palmer was a shell of what he was early in his career. You argued he would go back to being a top QB. He wound up with a ton of turnovers right? He was exactly like Geno Smith. Without the excuse of being a rookie QB coming out of a spread offense and having to learn the game. And he threw 22 his first season in AZ too. Not the worst but not Elite

Fact Ozzie Newsome had Jamarcus Russell graded the highest prospect he had every graded on his board.( of course he would have taken him if he had the number 1 pick). What you think a Gm puts his board together, and goes against how he has the player graded. If you can't understand this concept, than there isn't anything I can do to help you comprehend.

The Raiders were quick to admit their mistake with Russell , and didn't waste their time trying to develop a Qb that was going no where with - Sanchez and Geno Smith , and amount of years you wasted hoping you could make chicken salad, out Of chicken crap.

C Palmer has made a big difference in Arizona. you wish he was Qb of the Jets. No need to defend C Palmer because his play speaks for itself. ( ask Cardinals how much they missed not having him). To compare C Palmer to the worst NFL Qb Geno smith isn't worth discussing.

[Savage69]

Wow almost 4 pages discussing who is better?  A guy that got injured halfway through his rookie season to a guy yet to play his rookie season.. Like a bunch of Nostradamus around here. 

You mean Nostradumbass don't you??

[JustInFudge]

Though the comparison was between Mack and Clowney based on houston's pick, I could understand ODB being the best talent overall in the class. Houston really didnt have a need for WR at that moment. Granted, they really didnt have a need for DE/OLB as much as they did QB, but I believe it was a mixture of need and best available player. Even I slept on ODB. After going back and watching his college games it was obvious that I didnt see enough of him when I was giving my opinion on the WR's of that class. ODB definitely showed imo that he was a better overall WR than dude drafted by the Bills. ODB is great, and I mean the word great. I dont think that he would have a similar season with Fitz throwing the ball though. I think ODB fell into the right situation with Manning. Its crazy because I dont have a hatred for the Giants like many Jet fans do. I've always liked Eli, but I grew an even bigger appreciation for him after he dealt those critical blows to the Pats during those SB runs. 

 

ODB with Eli Manning will be great to see the next two years. Hopefully Nassib can keep up the pace once its his time to take over. 

 

Duh, it was like, totally obvi, hence why 2 WR's went before him.  

[Jet Nut]

Fact Ozzie Newsome had Jamarcus Russell graded the highest prospect he had every graded on his board.( of course he would have taken him if he had the number 1 pick). What you think a Gm puts his board together, and goes against how he has the player graded. If you can't understand this concept, than there isn't anything I can do to help you comprehend.

The Raiders were quick to admit their mistake with Russell , and didn't waste their time trying to develop a Qb that was going no where with - Sanchez and Geno Smith , and amount of years you wasted hoping you could make chicken salad, out Of chicken crap.

C Palmer has made a big difference in Arizona. you wish he was Qb of the Jets. No need to defend C Palmer because his play speaks for itself. ( ask Cardinals how much they missed not having him). To compare C Palmer to the worst NFL Qb Geno smith isn't worth discussing.

As I said there are plenty of reasons to not believe what someone is guessing Ozzies board looked like. And once again, because a player grades high for his physical abilities doesn't mean he will be picked anywhere near the round he grades into my f there are no Ed flags because of his mental makeup.

Geno Smith is Unitas compared to Russell. He's a better player and doesn't have any of the work ethic, laziness, weight problem, homie issues that Russell had.

Carson Palmer is a mediocre QB. And you keep bringing up Smith then saying you don't want to compare him to player X. Why?