Give cousins 30 mil per and draft a QB in the first

[Skeet Ulrich]

15 minutes ago, Nick Blitz said:

A proven NFL winner? 

Been to the Playoffs twice, lost the first game twice.

Only in Jets fandom is a QB with a career 23-25-1 record a proven NFL winner.

 

[HighPitch]

22 hours ago, nico002 said:

We have more cap that we know what to do with. There are not enough quality FA for us to spend even 2/3 of it.

if we are ok paying bum ass Wilkerson 18 mil, cousins is easily worth it.

guy is a top 5 QB and has 3-6 years of production left.

QB issue solved for present and future.

This is exactly the best cass scenario for us. 

[jetrider]

Cousins would be as exciting as bringing Sanchez back, IMO.

[RESNewYork]

5 minutes ago, Jetster said:

If we drafted Lamar Jackson & he's 25% better than Tyrod Taylor, considering Tyrod Taylor is 25% better than Josh McCown, that's a 50% increase in QB talent then we have right now. I would consider that a win-win for the NY Jets.

I dont know what this means but if you're on the Lamar Jackson train then sign me up. 

Now we need a slogan

[kelly]

2 minutes ago, RESNewYork said:

I dont know what this means but if you're on the Lamar Jackson train then sign me up. 

Now we need a slogan

[Bruce Harper]

Is he really that good?

[kelly]

3 minutes ago, Bruce Harper said:

Is he really that good?

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, kevinc855 said:

So bet on a unproven college kid over a proven nfl winner. Sounds rational 

His career record as a QB is 22-25-1, 0-1 in the playoffs.

I.e. he is not a "proven NFL winner", he's (thus far) a net loser as a NFL QB. 

These are the facts, no judgement being made here.

Second, let's expand your post:

I would bet on a proven (in college), low-cost college winner/producer over a productive, but exceedingly expensive, NFL QB with a career record of 22-25-1 to-date.

Remember, Kirk Cousins was once a unproven college kid too, one so poorly considered he wasn't taken till the 4th, and even then only by a team that just wanted a young backup for their shiny new #1 pick QB. 

If Cousins cost 15 mil a year, I'd be far more supportive (well, accepting) of it.  At his predicted asking price.....no.  He's good, no doubt.  He's not 30 mil a year for 7 years good.  Which is why the Skins haven't themselves signed him long term.

[nico002]

1 hour ago, Kleckineau said:

You stated "this isn’t baseball, the nfl does not guarantee contracts."

I pointed out there is guaranteed money for guys like Cousins and lots of it.

BTW I wouldnt mind if the Jets make a run for this guy.

They need to make a bold move whether through the draft or F/A because Metlife is becoming a festering cesspool of visiting teams fans from sold PSL tix. I went 2X this year and I am not going back till next season. They need to start putting out a better product very soon

 

90 million guaranteed 

40 year 1- still have 50 mil in cap 

20 year 2

20 year 3

10 year 4

[RESNewYork]

10 minutes ago, kelly said:

Is this code?

[Jetster]

20 minutes ago, RESNewYork said:

I dont know what this means but if you're on the Lamar Jackson train then sign me up. 

Now we need a slogan

I just want some offensive excitement. This team has been so boring for so long it's disheartening. I want a guy that can take off & leave a LB dead in his tracks on a 20 yard Gallup and get out of bounds. A guy that can scramble & flick the Bowl 50 yards on a rope. Randall Cunningham was FUN TO WATCH! 

Football is supposed to be entertainment, watching Bowles expressionless on the sideline & watching us run left center 20 times for 43 yards is worse than having a root canal.

[MDL_JET]

If Cousins does go elsewhere, Jets would have to be a the bottom for him unless it was a crap ton of money. 

Jags, Vikings, Broncos are all better situations. Especially the Jags, if I were them I'd go all in on Cousins. 

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Emotionally, I want to (and think we might just) select Baker Mayfield, the most productive QB in college football today.

He has many of the same things that made me like Watson, he wins, he produces, and he faces similar "metrics" criticisms, in Mayfields case his height and the rankings of the Defenses he plays against.

I free admit tho, I've never watched him play, I'm not a minor league football fan and only start to care when it comes close to draft time.  Now, at 3-5 with many losses looming, it's getting closer to draft time IMO, so I'm planning on watching Mayfield play on Saturday vs. another top ranked team, and see if he's real or not.

I do not believe the Jets will pick #1 or #2 overall, so if presumable Darnold and Rosen are the two "big elite names" I don't see us getting either (and I flat out don't want Darnold, at all, he's all hype, hope and projection, no substance, like most USC QB's of recent vintage).

So we'll see.  I always prefer drafting QB's to trading for veteran castoff QB's, not matter how hyped.  End of teh day, if Cousins is available, he was castoff by Washington, unwanted.  It's rare that kind of pickup wins titles, and while draft picks are risky as well, they're far FAR less expensive in both short and long term financials.

+1

Absent a replacement already on-hand, nobody lets a healthy, productive, starting QB hit FA, no matter the expense. Or anyway, there are only a few specific reasons if they do:

• They have a good reason from a skills perspective, after seeing him up close for long enough
• The QB has a personality issue that cannot be fixed (e.g. Jeff George)
• They do already have a replacement they (rightly or wrongly) like even better for the long haul. Manning/Luck; Brees/Rivers; Favre/Rodgers; Montana/Young; Gannon/Grbac; Flutie/Johnson; Testaverde/Zeier; Bledsoe/Brady; eventually Alex Smith/Pat Mahomes...

Even among previously-productive QBs, usually you just end up with Daunte Culpepper in Miami or Elvis Grbac in Baltimore.

If Washington just lets him go to roll the dice on a QB falling to them, it's too simple to say the reason is just because they're blind/dumb to know he's worth $30m/year. They've seen, kept, and started him for years. They know what he is and what he isn't, both good and bad. 

Not worth the Jets bypassing a draft pick after bypassing attainable veterans (like Cousins in 2015) and draft picks since 2014. That is, unless it's all crap and those that do watch these prospects are all wrong yet again, and after the dust settles, there's only going to end up being maybe 1 or kinda-sorta 2 QBs in this draft worth taking. It's happened before (1999).

[CanadaSteve]

4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The way Maccagnan has handled the roster is only marginally dumber than paying Cousins $30m/year.

Nobody is paying that. He’s a legitimate starter, but age and physical ceiling say he’s far closer to Alex Smith than Derek Carr, and that’s what you have to be to get that kind of money.

His absolute ceiling, for a desperate team that’s convinced they can’t find a QB in a QB-rich draft, is about $22-23m. 

I can’t think of any team or GM dumb enough to guarantee him $90m for the next 3 years unless the league and NFLPA announce in February that they’ve reached terms on a new CBA and the 2018 salary cap ceiling is immediately climbing to $275m

$30m/year for Cousins, lol. 

Problem is Sperm, is that is exactly how FA works. It didn't matter that Derek Carr hadn't actually played in the playoffs...His contract had to be higher than Andrew Luck.  And it didn't matter that Mathew Stafford hasn't done as much as Luck either, he HAD to be more than Derek Carr.  And it doesn't matter that all these guys can't hold a jock strap for Tom Brady; each position has to go by the bench mark of the previous year's value, and they have to top it.  It just never seems to matter if, you know, the guy is ACTUALLY better than the other person who recently signed the highest contract at said position. 

So yeah, I have a feeling we are looking at a Kirk Cousins signing that has to be more than $135 million, and more than the $27 per year Stafford signed for. 

With the way this league is going, they need to have a team salary cap MINUS one position on the team: QB.  You get to pay your starting QB whatever you want, and then the rest of the 52 players get paid within the salary cap.

[CanadaSteve]

3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Not worth the Jets bypassing a draft pick after bypassing attainable veterans (like Cousins) and draft picks since 2014. That is, unless it's all crap and those that do watch these prospects are all wrong yet again, and after the dust settles, there's only going to end up being maybe 1 or kinda-sorta 2 QBs in this draft worth taking. It's happened before (1999).

I doubt Baker Mayfield squeezes into the first round.

BUT...

Do you sign Cousins, if it is under $30 million a year, AND draft Mayfield in the 2nd and let him sit a year or two, just like how Cousins did. 

[Jetster]

23 minutes ago, Warfish said:

His career record as a QB is 22-25-1, 0-1 in the playoffs.

I.e. he is not a "proven NFL winner", he's (thus far) a net loser as a NFL QB. 

These are the facts, no judgement being made here.

Second, let's expand your post:

I would bet on a proven (in college), low-cost college winner/producer over a productive, but exceedingly expensive, NFL QB with a career record of 22-25-1 to-date.

Remember, Kirk Cousins was once a unproven college kid too, one so poorly considered he wasn't taken till the 4th, and even then only by a team that just wanted a young backup for their shiny new #1 pick QB. 

If Cousins cost 15 mil a year, I'd be far more supportive (well, accepting) of it.  At his predicted asking price.....no.  He's good, no doubt.  He's not 30 mil a year for 7 years good.  Which is why the Skins haven't themselves signed him long term.

When you get me a Jet QB that can accomplish this than I'll accept your notion that going hard after Cousins is the wrong move for the NY Jets. Kirk Cousins 1st year as the starter in 2015: 

 

Kirk Cousins, who took over as starting quarterback in the preseason, finished the season with career highs in touchdowns (29), yards (4,166), and completion percentage (69.8%). His completion percentage led the league, while his 29 touchdowns tied him for second on the franchise single-season list.^[55]

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, CanadaSteve said:

Problem is Sperm, is that is exactly how FA works. It didn't matter that Derek Carr hadn't actually played in the playoffs...His contract had to be higher than Andrew Luck.  And it didn't matter that Mathew Stafford hasn't done as much as Luck either, he HAD to be more than Derek Carr.  And it doesn't matter that all these guys can't hold a jock strap for Tom Brady; each position has to go by the bench mark of the previous year's value, and they have to top it.  It just never seems to matter if, you know, the guy is ACTUALLY better than the other person who recently signed the highest contract at said position. 

So yeah, I have a feeling we are looking at a Kirk Cousins signing that has to be more than $135 million, and more than the $27 per year Stafford signed for. 

With the way this league is going, they need to have a team salary cap MINUS one position on the team: QB.  You get to pay your starting QB whatever you want, and then the rest of the 52 players get paid within the salary cap.

No, that's how FA works for young QBs. In no small part, the thought process is even after the guaranteed portion is over, they'll still be the QB. By then, the money won't seem like a lot, and might even seem like a bargain. Their hit can be further lowered in years 2-3 by restructuring, because they're worth keeping for 5-7 years after the original signing date. That's why, unless the QB is older and a champion (or even a near-champion), or has uncanny physical skills, they don't become the record-setter in contracts. 

Even more, that doesn't factor in the discount that's going to happen just because of timing: this isn't a draft with only 1-2 top QB prospects and nobody else worthy of a 5th rounder, other than massive reaching.

[Jetster]

12 minutes ago, MDL_JET said:

If Cousins does go elsewhere, Jets would have to be a the bottom for him unless it was a crap ton of money. 

Jags, Vikings, Broncos are all better situations. Especially the Jags, if I were them I'd go all in on Cousins. 

Your right. Did you see Elway went to Osweiller? Cousins to Denver if Skins foolishly let him get out of the building. Broncos are starting to show their age though too.

[Warfish]

Just now, Jetster said:

When you get me a Jet QB that can accomplish this than I'll accept your notion that going hard after Cousins is the wrong move for the NY Jets. Kirk Cousins 1st year as the starter in 2015: 

 

Kirk Cousins, who took over as starting quarterback in the preseason, finished the season with career highs in touchdowns (29), yards (4,166), and completion percentage (69.8%). His completion percentage led the league, while his 29 touchdowns tied him for second on the franchise single-season list.^[55]

i.e. Fitzpatrick levels of production with less wins.

I get it man, I do.  But willfully ignoring that Cousins is a sub-.500 QB (on a much more talented Offensively prioritized/skilled team than ours) and will cost in the ballpark of 30 million a year for a minimum of 5-6 years is only considering part of the big picture.

Yes, I want 70% completion %, 4,000+ yards, and 30+ TD's from my QB.  I also want 12-4 seasons, playoff wins, and consistency too, and I want it for less than 150 million over 5 years and the risk that he's not as good as some think.

Which is why I go draft.  But I understand your view, we just agree to disagree.

[Augustiniak]

15 minutes ago, MDL_JET said:

If Cousins does go elsewhere, Jets would have to be a the bottom for him unless it was a crap ton of money. 

Jags, Vikings, Broncos are all better situations. Especially the Jags, if I were them I'd go all in on Cousins. 

exactly, i cannot see a scenario where he comes to this team, with an OL in flux, no true #1 wr, and a head coach that doesn't have an inclination to develop offensive talent.  the jets will be drafting a qb, hopefully, and we can only hope the browns get cousins or mccarron and forgo drafting a qb in the first round.  

[Warfish]

7 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

I doubt Baker Mayfield squeezes into the first round.

BUT...

Do you sign Cousins, if it is under $30 million a year, AND draft Mayfield in the 2nd and let him sit a year or two, just like how Cousins did. 

Wouldn't be the drop dead worst outcome.  Expensive, but I like the idea of having multiple younger QB options.  Keep Hack as the #3, because why not, he's only 22 years old.

Overkill effort at QB is warranted for this franchise, tbqh.

 

If I had been GM, we'd currently have Deshaun Watson, Petty and Hack.  And I'd likely STILL draft Baker Mayfield this coming draft (dumping Petty to do it).

God, imagine having Watson, Mayfield, and Hack as the QB trio going into 2018.  Man that'd have been exciting.

[CanadaSteve]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

No, that's how FA works for young QBs. In no small part, the thought process is even after the guaranteed portion is over, they'll still be the QB. By then, the money won't seem like a lot, and might even seem like a bargain. Their hit can be further lowered in years 2-3 by restructuring, because they're worth keeping for 5-7 years after the original signing date. That's why, unless the QB is older and a champion (or even a near-champion), or has uncanny physical skills, they don't become the record-setter in contracts. 

Even more, that doesn't factor in the discount that's going to happen just because of timing: this isn't a draft with only 1-2 top QB prospects and nobody else worthy of a 5th rounder, other than massive reaching.

So, you're saying in no way when Derek Carr signed that contract part of the stipulation was to be the highest paid QB after Luck?  And then, when it was time to re-up Stafford, there was no stipulation that he wanted to be the highest paid QB...Even though neither of those players have done anything to warrant being considered it?  I can understand when Brady's contract was up, he gets paid as the top.  I can understand Brees, I can understand Rodgers.  When do you just not pay a guy who just isn't worth what he thinks he is?  MAYBE that is why Washington hasn't paid Cousins, because they just don't think he is worth that big of an investment.

[kelly]

35 minutes ago, RESNewYork said:

Is this code?

[Sperm Edwards]

5 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

I doubt Baker Mayfield squeezes into the first round.

BUT...

Do you sign Cousins, if it is under $30 million a year, AND draft Mayfield in the 2nd and let him sit a year or two, just like how Cousins did. 

Awful idea IMO.

If you sign Cousins for $30m, you can't then go pissing away high 2nd round picks for the QB job 4 years from now. 

Signing a QB for that amount means more starters around him must come from the draft, and must be productive while on those rookie contracts, and the best chance of hitting on that is to use the high picks to find them.

If you want to simultaneously find a future QB for after-Cousins, in the same year as first signing Cousins, you find him no earlier than round 6 and hope you get lucky. And for the Jets, not even that this year, since we just gave away our 5th round pick on a player who - even if he's a success - becomes a young UFA in 2020 looking for non-5th round dollars.

[kevinc855]

1 hour ago, Nick Blitz said:

A proven NFL winner? 

Been to the Playoffs twice, lost the first game twice.

Ahh.  Now jet fans turn their nose on the playoffs, huh, we should concentrate on getting in a position to lose a wildcard game first 

[CanadaSteve]

5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Awful idea IMO.

If you sign Cousins for $30m, you can't then go pissing away high 2nd round picks for the QB job 4 years from now. 

Signing a QB for that amount means more starters around him must come from the draft, and must be productive while on those rookie contracts, and the best chance of hitting on that is to use the high picks to find them.

If you want to simultaneously find a future QB for after-Cousins, in the same year as first signing Cousins, you find him no earlier than round 6 and hope you get lucky. And for the Jets, not even that this year, since we just gave away our 5th round pick on a player who - even if he's a success - becomes a young UFA in 2020 looking for non-5th round dollars.

Worked for Washington....to a degree.  They drafted Cousins in round 4 same year they drafted Griffin.  I don't think it is the worse idea, but it would also depend on how the rest of the draft was utilized.

Last paragraph....I have to laugh.  You really despise Mac and all his moves, don't you?

 

[Pac]

6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

If you want to simultaneously find a future QB for after-Cousins, in the same year as first signing Cousins, you find him no earlier than round 6 and hope you get lucky. And for the Jets, not even that this year, since we just gave away our 5th round pick on a player who - even if he's a success - becomes a young UFA in 2020 looking for non-5th round dollars.

We have 2 5th rounders and if he turns into what they're hoping then they won't mind having to pay him in 3 years.  Good players eventually get paid.

[Jetster]

13 minutes ago, Warfish said:

i.e. Fitzpatrick levels of production with less wins.

I get it man, I do.  But willfully ignoring that Cousins is a sub-.500 QB (on a much more talented Offensively prioritized/skilled team than ours) and will cost in the ballpark of 30 million a year for a minimum of 5-6 years is only considering part of the big picture.

Yes, I want 70% completion %, 4,000+ yards, and 30+ TD's from my QB.  I also want 12-4 seasons, playoff wins, and consistency too, and I want it for less than 150 million over 5 years and the risk that he's not as good as some think.

Which is why I go draft.  But I understand your view, we just agree to disagree.

During Cousins ascension to starting QB, the Washington Redskins had one of the worst defenses in the entire NFL. Go back & look at the Skins defensive rankings. I saw a couple of Monday Night games featuring the Redskins & you could hear the disgust in Jon Grudens voice as they could never get off the field. That's why they threw a gazillion dollars at Josh Norman. Listen War, I'm not in the give him 30 million crowd but I think we need to take a shot if it's at all possible.

[kevinc855]

10 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Awful idea IMO.

If you sign Cousins for $30m, you can't then go pissing away high 2nd round picks for the QB job 4 years from now. 

Signing a QB for that amount means more starters around him must come from the draft, and must be productive while on those rookie contracts, and the best chance of hitting on that is to use the high picks to find them.

If you want to simultaneously find a future QB for after-Cousins, in the same year as first signing Cousins, you find him no earlier than round 6 and hope you get lucky. And for the Jets, not even that this year, since we just gave away our 5th round pick on a player who - even if he's a success - becomes a young UFA in 2020 looking for non-5th round dollars.

Cousins is in his early 30s, no way, he’s got another 5-6 years at least. 

[kevinc855]

28 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Wouldn't be the drop dead worst outcome.  Expensive, but I like the idea of having multiple younger QB options.  Keep Hack as the #3, because why not, he's only 22 years old.

Overkill effort at QB is warranted for this franchise, tbqh.

 

If I had been GM, we'd currently have Deshaun Watson, Petty and Hack.  And I'd likely STILL draft Baker Mayfield this coming draft (dumping Petty to do it).

God, imagine having Watson, Mayfield, and Hack as the QB trio going into 2018.  Man that'd have been exciting.

And passing on a safety like Adams you have opposing qbs throwing 70 yard bombs over your head like they did weekly against the jets 

[kelly]

2 minutes ago, Pac said:

We have 2 5th rounders and if he turns into what they're hoping then they won't mind having to pay him in 3 years.  Good players eventually get paid.

[Sperm Edwards]

16 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

So, you're saying in no way when Derek Carr signed that contract part of the stipulation was to be the highest paid QB after Luck?  And then, when it was time to re-up Stafford, there was no stipulation that he wanted to be the highest paid QB...Even though neither of those players have done anything to warrant being considered it?  I can understand when Brady's contract was up, he gets paid as the top.  I can understand Brees, I can understand Rodgers.  When do you just not pay a guy who just isn't worth what he thinks he is?  MAYBE that is why Washington hasn't paid Cousins, because they just don't think he is worth that big of an investment.

No. Use my words, not your changing of my words with the "So, you're saying..." that I was not saying.

Derek Carr was 4.5 years younger than Cousins will be this coming FA period.

Stafford is a good year younger, has unusual arm strength that GMs drool over, arguably became a better QB once he lost Calvin Johnson, and he was "their" guy as a former #1 overall pick rather than a FA switching teams, making him already a fan favorite. You may scoff at that stuff, but you'd be wrong to think emotional ties to the player - for both the organization and for the fan base - doesn't factor in the talks. 

So whatever Carr's or Stafford's agents may or may not have said is irrelevant. Cousins does not have the same pull those guys had. He doesn't have the long-term future potential that Carr has for Oakland; Cousins wouldn't have the emotional attachment that Stafford has for Detroit, and quite simply, no GM is making him the highest paid QB in the history of the league. 

But put in more plain terms, those guys got that much because they are unanimously viewed as franchise QBs. Cousins is not.

Cousins seems more in line for a slightly-higher (but proportional for salary cap inflation) version of what Alex Smith got in KC. That isn't in the $30m range. It's closer to the $23m range at the very top end.

[Sperm Edwards]

12 minutes ago, Pac said:

We have 2 5th rounders and if he turns into what they're hoping then they won't mind having to pay him in 3 years.  Good players eventually get paid.

And that isn't a problem unless you pay Kirk Cousins $30m/year. 

[Warfish]

11 minutes ago, Jetster said:

During Cousins ascension to starting QB, the Washington Redskins had one of the worst defenses in the entire NFL.

Which only serves to inflate his passing numbers.

11 minutes ago, Jetster said:

I'm not in the give him 30 million crowd but I think we need to take a shot if it's at all possible.

Fair enough, as I've said, it's far more palatable at a reasonable cost.  But he will not accept a reasonable cost, so it's moot.

[Warfish]

8 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

And passing on a safety like Adams you have opposing qbs throwing 70 yard bombs over your head like they did weekly against the jets 

Appreciate your feedback, Coach Bowles. 

DT, CB, DE, LB and backup Safety in the 2018 Draft, got it!