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McShay on Macc

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45 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Don’t forget picking Marcus Maye over Dalvin Cook.  Which makes missing on Kareem Hunt even worse.  At least if he took Maye in the second and came back with Hunt in the 3rd you could excuse it, but no he doubled down on below average talent and took Stewart over Hunt. 

Dalvin Cook didnt even play last year

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19 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Dalvin Cook didnt even play last year

 

11 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Ok, thanks.  

 

9 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Find evidence that will be supporting in full. You're welcome

Dalvin Cook did not even play last year.  Yet he had 50 more rushing yards than Elijah McGuire.  RB of the future!

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1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

 

 

Dalvin Cook did not even play last year.  Yet he had 50 more rushing yards than Elijah McGuire.  RB of the future!

Exactly, that’s why it wasn’t even worth responding to.  

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47 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Help me understand why 21/22 picks remaining on the roster is cause for praise when that amounts to back-to-back 5-11 seasons?

I personally think it is completely reasonable to think that when the majority of your best players are in their first few seasons in the league, growing pains are to be expected.

The Jaguars won 15 games combined in the 4 seasons leading into last season.  Does that mean their roster was awful or they just were young?

Last year the playoffs included 7 of the top 10 oldest teams in the NFL.  2 more in the top half.  The Chiefs were 17th, Jags 25th and Rams 31.

So yes, a young roster can definitely contend, but it is far less common.

If people want to say the Jets roster is awful, then that's fine.  I personally think there is more talent present then some.  That should also be fine.  I'm not trying to say that the roster is loaded.  It's not.  I just don't think it's the desolate wasteland some make it out to be.

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Just now, HawkeyeJet said:

I personally think it is completely reasonable to think that when the majority of your best players are in their first few seasons in the league, growing pains are to be expected.

The Jaguars won 15 games combined in the 4 seasons leading into last season.  Does that mean their roster was awful or they just were young?

Last year the playoffs included 7 of the top 10 oldest teams in the NFL.  2 more in the top half.  The Chiefs were 17th, Jags 25th and Rams 31.

So yes, a young roster can definitely contend, but it is far less common.

I think this can be kind of overblown.  Teams that contend will keep a few older vets on and add older players to help down the stretch - like the Chiefs adding Revis.  Our team is built around a 40 year old QB.  5-11 youth develops into 6-10/7-9 vets.  The guys first draft has 3 years under its belt - what are they waiting for?

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3 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I personally think it is completely reasonable to think that when the majority of your best players are in their first few seasons in the league, growing pains are to be expected.

The Jaguars won 15 games combined in the 4 seasons leading into last season.  Does that mean their roster was awful or they just were young?

Last year the playoffs included 7 of the top 10 oldest teams in the NFL.  2 more in the top half.  The Chiefs were 17th, Jags 25th and Rams 31.

So yes, a young roster can definitely contend, but it is far less common.

If people want to say the Jets roster is awful, then that's fine.  I personally think there is more talent present then some.  That should also be fine.  I'm not trying to say that the roster is loaded.  It's not.  I just don't think it's the desolate wasteland some make it out to be.

I think Shane's question is a good one.  How many Jets could you get a 3rd round pick or better for right now?

Also, growing pains we can tolerate, that's actually not what you're seeing though.  You're seeing guys who are playing exactly to what you can expect from them.  Who do you see as falling under "growing pains?"  What player on the team right now is going to be significantly better in a year or two?

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43 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Who are the seven good starters he drafted? Just curious.

I'm guessing, Williams, Lee, Jenkins, Shell, Adams, Maye and the 7th is either Robby Anderson, who he didn't draft, or Lachlan Edwards. 

But there are still players that could develop into good starters. Many players take a few years to realize their potential. 

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The everyday JETS fan, give them a GM they don't want him, give them a QB they don't want him, give them a coach they don't want him..

at that point what the phuck do you want ...GEEZ... little ones

 

tenor.gif

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3 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

I'm guessing, Williams, Lee, Jenkins, Shell, Adams, Maye and the 7th is either Robby Anderson, who he didn't draft, or Lachlan Edwards. 

But there are still players that could develop into good starters. Many players take a few years to realize their potential. 

Half those guys are simply not "good" starters.  Williams has materially underperformed his draft position.  Lee as well, more than half the fanbase is desperate to have him cut/traded.  Shell?  Average at best.  Adams, one season, too early to judge.  Same for Maye.  Robby wasn't drafted (so not part of the 22 Macc drafted).  And a Punter?  Seriously?

The fact that we cannot easily identify these "seven good starters" is rather telling.  That only you even tried (everyone else ignored the question) is also telling.   

I also don't give much worth to the 21 of 22 stat.  For one, Macc controls the roster so he doesn't get a pat on the back for keeping say, Hack on the roster.  It's also telling how many FA we've signed (in terms of number of players) and how few have lasted more than a season or two.

Macc's era so far is one of disappointment, in record, in talent, and in overall roster improvement.  It's damn hard to say we're materially better today, three years in, than we were the day Macc and Bowles were hired. 21 of 22 and two 5 win seasons, yeah, great.

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19 hours ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I present this without(much) commentary.  I think the general consensus of Jets fan is that Macc has done a poor job.  On the other hand, I think non Jets fans have a different perception.  McShay appears to be one.  I am not advocating for or against, I just find it interesting.  The numbers used here will go down a bit, but I think his overall point would stay the same.

 

21 of 22 still on the roster. I wonder what is considered good. Or, if there is a number that's considered good. Or, if this is just an anecdotal observation with some related speculation, what is the number for all of the other GMs in the league, just for some context.

Of course, intuitively, that sounds good. Always good to have a little context, though. Also, as noted above, picks like Hack seem to make the quoted metric sound good despite all indications suggesting the Hack pick is very likely a major bust.

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49 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

There just seems to be this dichotomy that Jets fans think their team is in horrible shape and those outside think it's not as bad.

Very weird. Same thing with Bowles

I think Mac and Bowles are treated well by the league and the press.   People like them.  They are good, honest guys.  It is possible that they also cooperate with the press in providing information, so the press is nice to them.  

But nice does not walk the dog.  I am not convinced that either of them are good at their jobs.  

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Lets see he has solidified safety, safety, non impact ILb and punter in three years.

The saints in one year:

One of the best CBs in the league

A starting RT being groomed for LT

A massive weapon at RB

A starting safety

A starting ILB (who got hurt)

 

 

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19 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

I agree to a point.  I don't think McShay is saying all are good picks.  But, there will be high turnover of that number going into this season.  Lots of guys are hanging on by a thread.  Hack, Petty and Devin Smith just to name a few. This time next year I'd like to see the number in X of 22.

it will be x of 28, since the further you go out you expect dropoffs

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25 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Half those guys are simply not "good" starters.  Williams has materially underperformed his draft position.  Lee as well, more than half the fanbase is desperate to have him cut/traded.  Shell?  Average at best.  Adams, one season, too early to judge.  Same for Maye.  Robby wasn't drafted (so not part of the 22 Macc drafted).  And a Punter?  Seriously?

The fact that we cannot easily identify these "seven good starters" is rather telling.  That only you even tried (everyone else ignored the question) is also telling.   

I also don't give much worth to the 21 of 22 stat.  For one, Macc controls the roster so he doesn't get a pat on the back for keeping say, Hack on the roster.  It's also telling how many FA we've signed (in terms of number of players) and how few have lasted more than a season or two.

Macc's era so far is one of disappointment, in record, in talent, and in overall roster improvement.  It's damn hard to say we're materially better today, three years in, than we were the day Macc and Bowles were hired. 21 of 22 and two 5 win seasons, yeah, great.

I'm not ready to anoint Macc, but he hasn't been nearly as bad as some of you make it seem. His FA pick ups and trades this past  year were great. He did something no other Jet GM has done in a decade and that's hit on a 2nd round pick. And he has us in position to draft a franchise QB. 

Macc is at a cross-roads of his Jets tenure. If he hits on a QB and a few of his draft picks continue to emerge he will be here for a long time. If not, then guys like you can prepare to build your case for getting the next GM fired...

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32 minutes ago, JETSfan4life_1 said:

The everyday JETS fan, give them a GM they don't want him, give them a QB they don't want him, give them a coach they don't want him..

at that point what the phuck do you want ...GEEZ... little ones

Maybe ones that don't suck, a la Macc, Bowles, and Fitz, er, Hack, er, McCown, er, Petty, er, Teddy now?

Maybe ones that can win more than 5 games in their third year together?

I know, it's asking alot to be competitive.  Some folks standards just aren't that high I guess.

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Macc had a good off-season in 2017. His off-season so far has been solid. He has gotten better as a GM. Giving he was a first time GM, this is a good sign. 

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1 minute ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

I'm not ready to anoint Macc, but he hasn't been nearly as bad as some of you make it seem. His FA pick ups and trades this past  year were great. He did something no other Jet GM has done in a decade and that's hit on a 2nd round pick. And he has us in position to draft a franchise QB. 

Macc is at a cross-roads of his Jets tenure. If he hits on a QB and a few of his draft picks continue to emerge he will be here for a long time. If not, then guys like you can prepare to build your case for getting the next GM fired...

His FA pickups were "great"?  Guess we define term that differently.

Optimism is fine.  Wake me when we win games to back that optimism up.

Or have we already given up on that for 2018 now too?

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Regardless of what the fans think it's clear that both Mac and Bowles are "respected" throughout the league and are perceived in a much more favorable light than they are by Jets fans. Why would be an interesting discussion but it's clear that is the case.

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23 minutes ago, SouthernJet said:

it will be x of 28, since the further you go out you expect dropoffs

Right, but I'm saying that if right now it's 21 of 22, then I want to see next year what X of 22 is from those 3 drafts in 2015, 2016, and 2017.

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37 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Lets see he has solidified safety, safety, non impact ILb and punter in three years.

The saints in one year:

One of the best CBs in the league

A starting RT being groomed for LT

A massive weapon at RB

A starting safety

A starting ILB (who got hurt)

The Saints 2017 draft was one of the best drafts any team has had over the last 10 years. but it does point out what a smart FO can do with smart drafting.  

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For the record, I think he meant the 6-7 solid starters in 3 drafts is good hit rate.  Not the 22/23 note, but who knows

53 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Half those guys are simply not "good" starters.  Williams has materially underperformed his draft position.  Lee as well, more than half the fanbase is desperate to have him cut/traded.  Shell?  Average at best.  Adams, one season, too early to judge.  Same for Maye.  Robby wasn't drafted (so not part of the 22 Macc drafted).  And a Punter?  Seriously?

The fact that we cannot easily identify these "seven good starters" is rather telling.  That only you even tried (everyone else ignored the question) is also telling.   

I also don't give much worth to the 21 of 22 stat.  For one, Macc controls the roster so he doesn't get a pat on the back for keeping say, Hack on the roster.  It's also telling how many FA we've signed (in terms of number of players) and how few have lasted more than a season or two.

Macc's era so far is one of disappointment, in record, in talent, and in overall roster improvement.  It's damn hard to say we're materially better today, three years in, than we were the day Macc and Bowles were hired. 21 of 22 and two 5 win seasons, yeah, great.

The fact that in you call Shell average at best, and then seem to imply that makes him a bad pick is kind of the main part of any argument over the Macc.

You are right, he is average at best.  If you rank the RTs in the league he's in the bottom half, but he is at minimum serviceable as a Starter.  He was a 5th Rd pick.  That is a good return on a 5th RD pick.  A lot of people talk about Jenkins like that too.  Is he a superstar?  No.  But he's a solid player.  A solid starter.  That's perfectly fine for a 3rd round pick.

Macc has done a good job on those type of players.  To date, his main issue is he hasn't crushed the 1st 2 rounds, and hasn't drafted any superstars, so to speak.  No denying that.  

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2 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

For the record, I think he meant the 6-7 solid starters in 3 drafts is good hit rate.  Not the 22/23 note, but who knows

The fact that in you call Shell average at best, and then seem to imply that makes him a bad pick is kind of the main part of any argument over the Macc.

You are right, he is average at best.  If you rank the RTs in the league he's in the bottom half, but he is at minimum serviceable as a Starter.  He was a 5th Rd pick.  That is a good return on a 5th RD pick.  A lot of people talk about Jenkins like that too.  Is he a superstar?  No.  But he's a solid player.  A solid starter.  That's perfectly fine for a 3rd round pick.

Macc has done a good job on those type of players.  To date, his main issue is he hasn't crushed the 1st 2 rounds, and hasn't drafted any superstars, so to speak.  No denying that.  

I actually think Mac has done a great job with UDFAs too.

Whiffing on 2nd rounders year after year has been his biggest weakness.

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1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

I think Shane's question is a good one.  How many Jets could you get a 3rd round pick or better for right now?

Also, growing pains we can tolerate, that's actually not what you're seeing though.  You're seeing guys who are playing exactly to what you can expect from them.  Who do you see as falling under "growing pains?"  What player on the team right now is going to be significantly better in a year or two?

I was talking about growing pains as a team, not as individual players.  I don't have the answer to your question.  I still think Williams, both safeties, Jenkins and Lee have lots of growth potential.  That doesn't mean they will, but I think they can. 

As far as Shane's statement, that is valid.  I will not argue anyone who says that the roster is devoid of elite, high end talent.  Hopefully that changes soon.

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2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Who are the seven good starters he drafted? Just curious.

Devin Smith, Lorenzo Mauldin, Hackenberg, Petty, Ardarius Stewart, Darron Lee and Baker Mayfield 

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11 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I actually think Mac has done a great job with UDFAs too.

Whiffing on 2nd rounders year after year has been his biggest weakness.

Too bad he’s been whiffing on 1st rounders and 3rd-7th rounders too

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