Jets begin contract extension talks with Jamal Adams

[BettyBoop]

6 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Jamal gets labeled a “winner” and a “winning player” because he markets himself aggressively that way and because nothing he produces on the field is quantifiable, so his proponents have to resort to abstractions to justify rooting for him. Pat Mahomes is 24-7 as a starting quarterback in the league, but nobody calls him a “winner” because you don’t have to use buzzwords to discuss his greatness. Has anyone ever called Von Miller or JJ Watt a “winner” or a “winning player”? No. Because they don’t need fluffing to justify their significance. Jamal Adams is the homely girl with the “great personality.”

What utter nonsense.

[Jetsfan80]

14 minutes ago, BettyBoop said:

To trade Adams for a first and fourth means one of those picks will have to be used on a replacement for Adams.   

 

12 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

No, it doesn't.  I listed off several viable SS free agent options earlier in the thread.  

We still have Marcus Maye.  We can survive just fine on defense with him and a replacement level SS. 

 

The list, for your convenience:

• Ha-Ha Clinton-Dix (27):  16 career INTs, 33 PDs, 5.5 sacks, 4 FFs.  Last season -  2 INTs, 1 TD, 2 FRs
• Rodney McLeod (29):  13 career INTs, 41 PDs, 12 TFLs, 11 FFs.  Last season - 2 INTs, 6 PDs, 2 FFs
• Tre Boston (27):  14 career INTs, 38 PDs, 12 TFLs, 1 TD.  Last season - 3 INTs, 11 PDs
• Anthony Harris (28):  9 career INTs, 1 TD, 21 PDs, 4 FRs.  Last season - 6 INTs, 1 TD, 11 PDs
• Justin Simmons (26):  11 career INTs, 1 TD, 28 PDs, 8 TFLs.  Last season - 4 INTs, 15 PDs, 2 TFLs
• Vonn Bell (25):  1 career INT, 8.0 sacks, 7 FF's, 7 FRs, 17 QB Hits.  Last season - 1 INT, 1.5 sacks, 2 FFs, 5 FRs, 1 TD
• Karl Joseph (26):  4 career INTs, 1 FF, 3 FRs, 3.0 sacks, 9 TFLs.  Last season:  1 INT, 1 FR, 4 TFLs
• Jimmie Ward (28):  2 career INTs, 29 PDs, 3.0 sacks, 2 FFs, 2 FRs.  Last season:  8 PDs, 1 sack, 2 TFLs

[Jetsfan80]

12 minutes ago, BettyBoop said:

It seems that you think Adams is just not a good player.  He had 6.5 sacks last year.  He did not put added strain on the secondary. 

Never said that.  I believe he's an overrated player because the things he does well don't move the needle significantly for a football team.

He's an amazing tackler and has quite a few qualities you'd look for out of a Linebacker.  But that only does so much.

When he got to the QB, he helped the secondary.  But when he didn't, the guys behind him were forced to pick up the slack.  You can't eat your cake and have it to.  When he hangs around the LOS, someone else back there has to pick up in coverage.  He can't be both an EDGE guy AND a very good safety.  How we used him is not sustainable moving forward.  Use him again in 2020 like we did this year and you'll see his sack total go down as offenses adjust accordingly.  

[Jetsfan80]

12 minutes ago, BettyBoop said:

And Maulet and Bless at CB?  None of the guys you listed would have anything close to the impact Adams has on the defense.  

What exactly did Jamal do to help them?  He couldn't have been spending much time ensuring they're in the right spots when he was freelancing at the LOS.  

[The Voice of Reason]

35 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Except it isn't for a tangible return, its for draft picks.  

You know, crap shoot return

A new player to complain about down the road

And watch the pick turn into Ereck Flowers... then how would everyone feel about trading away an all-pro safety for Ereck Flowers...

[JustInFudge]

47 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I'm talking 1st/2nd round.  Where you find your starting OT's.  You can't find those outside of the first 45 or so picks almost ever.  Just ask @Sperm Edwards.

I do agree that we can find a Center just about anywhere in those first few rounds, and maybe even in the mid-late rounds.  And we might find a starting G in the middle rounds.  But OT?  Nope.  And we need a new LT AND a new RT.  Someone needs to be groomed to replace Beachum, a below average LT who turns 31 in June.  

I could easily find an LT and RT in this draft.  It's loaded. 

Why you such a Douglas hater? 

[JustInFudge]

47 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

No, they don't.  Jamal has always been a loser.  Those guys (especially Donald and Ramsey) have mostly been winners.  That's a pretty massive difference.

Neither have a ring, therefore, not valuable. 

[JustInFudge]

46 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Fine.  Then don't act like a bunch of JN draftniks are the best source to determine whether trading Adams would be worthwhile.  Some JN draftniks are smart.  Most are dumb.  

I'm the greatest draftnik that has ever lived.

[Jet Nut]

16 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Jamal gets labeled a “winner” and a “winning player” because he markets himself aggressively that way and because nothing he produces on the field is quantifiable, so his proponents have to resort to abstractions to justify rooting for him. Pat Mahomes is 24-7 as a starting quarterback in the league, but nobody calls him a “winner” because you don’t have to use buzzwords to discuss his greatness. Has anyone ever called Von Miller or JJ Watt a “winner” or a “winning player”? No. Because they don’t need fluffing to justify their significance. Jamal Adams is the homely girl with the “great personality.”

I've never seen him labeled anything other than a good young player.  I've never seem him market himself as a winner.  

I've never seen a quantifiable way to prove he is or isn't a winner.  

A JJ Watt isn't called a winner because he's won nothing.  His team makes the playoffs with and without him.  But his teams record makes him a quantifiable winner?  

[JustInFudge]

42 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

It goes to show how people are misconstruing the Jamal Adams question: they’re treating is like we’re advocating cutting him or letting him walk as a free agent. There would be a significant and tangible return for moving him.

Curious - how will your perception of Gase/Douglas change once they extend Jamal? 

[Jet Nut]

2 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

And watch the pick turn into Ereck Flowers... then how would everyone feel about trading away an all-pro safety for Ereck Flowers...

Nope, you snap your fingers and poof a couple of top picks.

Then you snap your fingers and poof, they all turn into all pro level players

Then you wake up and realize this hardly ever happens.

Roll over and blame the GM and of course the owners 

[genot]

All the anti-Adams people have egg on their face.  or is it that Douglas doesn't know what the definition of premium position means in the NFL. Adams is a great player, plays hard every week, and is young. you keep those players around.

[BettyBoop]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

The list, for your convenience:

• Ha-Ha Clinton-Dix:  16 career INTs, 33 PDs, 5.5 sacks, 4 FFs.  Last season -  2 INTs, 1 TD, 2 FRs
• Rodney McLeod:  13 career INTs, 41 PDs, 12 TFLs, 11 FFs.  Last season - 2 INTs, 6 PDs, 2 FFs
• Tre Boston:  14 career INTs, 38 PDs, 12 TFLs, 1 TD.  Last season - 3 INTs, 11 PDs
• Anthony Harris:  9 career INTs, 1 TD, 21 PDs, 4 FRs.  Last season - 6 INTs, 1 TD, 11 PDs
• Justin Simmons:  11 career INTs, 1 TD, 28 PDs, 8 TFLs.  Last season - 4 INTs, 15 PDs, 2 TFLs
• Vonn Bell:  1 career INT, 8.0 sacks, 7 FF's, 7 FRs, 17 QB Hits.  Last season - 1 INT, 1.5 sacks, 2 FFs, 5 FRs, 1 TD
• Karl Joseph:  4 career INTs, 1 FF, 3 FRs, 3.0 sacks, 9 TFLs.  Last season:  1 INT, 1 FR, 4 TFLs
• Jimmie Ward:  2 career INTs, 29 PDs, 3.0 sacks, 2 FFs, 2 FRs.  Last season:  8 PDs, 1 sack, 2 TFLs

That's a nice list with all the bells and whistles attached.  A lot of numbers that don't really say much.  And the most sacks I see from last year is 1.5 so I guess that would have put even more pressure on the secondary.  If you think anyone on that list can have even close to the impact that Adams has then there's nothing I can say to that.  If any one of these guys had taken Adams place last year the defense would have been terrible.  

Aside from Adams, the defensive MVP last year was Greg Williams.  You can be assured that Williams wants Adams back (hence the negotiations) because more than anyone he knows what Adams does for his defense.

[BettyBoop]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

What exactly did Jamal do to help them?  He couldn't have been spending much time ensuring they're in the right spots when he was freelancing at the LOS.  

What does that even mean???

[JustInFudge]

34 minutes ago, BettyBoop said:

I understand those who can justify trading Adams for 3+ picks in the 2020-21 first three rounds.  However, it's highly unlikely that is realistic.  For those who want to trade him for a first and a fourth round pick, that's just draft pick lusters who celebrate the Super Bowl on the last Thursday, Friday and Saturday in April.  

To trade Adams for a first and fourth means one of those picks will have to be used on a replacement for Adams.  Unless you're one of the knuckleheads who thinks anyone off the street can play SS because it's such a meaningless position.  It's not.  

For those who think you can't pay Adams, an all-pro, because Moseley (who played one meaningful game for the Jets) is making $17.5mm, well, you might want to read a book about binary thinking.  It's just not logical.

By 2021 Douglas will completely remake the team building around Adams on defense and Darnold on offense.  

The loudest "trade Jamal" people in the room who say he's not worth the contract because he's not impact player and only tackles people for a living and is not one of the best players in the league are screaming for a trade that will bring a "haul" which includes a 1st round pick + more  day 2 picks.    

Lets chew on that logic for a minute.

 

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, BettyBoop said:

What does that even mean???

Did you watch any Jets games this year?  Jamal spent at least 30 % of his snaps near the LOS looking to tackle a ball-carrier rather than handling traditional Safety duties.  

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, JiF said:

The loudest "trade Jamal" people in the room who say he's not worth the contract because he's not impact player and only tackles people for a living and is not one of the best players in the league are screaming for a trade that will bring a "haul" which includes a 1st round pick + more picks day 2 picks.    

 

 

The same people who question this also wonder why people like Mike Maccagnan ever get GM jobs in the league.  All it takes is one dumb GM to misunderstand positional importance and practice market inefficiency for a favorable trade to happen.  

Not saying it WILL happen.  Only that a lot CAN happen.  And if we do find a dumb GM out there to give us a 1st & 3rd (or perhaps more), we SHOULD pull the trigger.  

Not sure why this consistently has proven to be so hard for people to understand.

[Jetsfan80]

9 minutes ago, BettyBoop said:

That's a nice list with all the bells and whistles attached.  A lot of numbers that don't really say much. 

Yet you just threw "6.5 sacks" at me like it meant something.  

[Barry McCockinner]

JamALL-PRO

lock him up

[BettyBoop]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Did you watch any Jets games this year?  Jamal spent at least 30 % of his snaps near the LOS looking to tackle a ball-carrier rather than handling traditional Safety duties.  

Did you know that 98% of statistics (e.g., 30 % of his snaps near the LOS) are made up?  He did the duties his defensive coordinator assigned to him.  As a result, he got 6.5 sacks.  He was second on the team in sacks, more than twice the guy in third place.  

The defense didn't overachieve last year because he was 'loafing around the line of scrimmage', whatever that even means.

[BettyBoop]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yet you just threw "6.5 sacks" at me like it meant something.  

It didn't?  It means he didn't 'wander around the line of scrimmage'.  It means a hell of a lot more than 

Karl Joseph:  4 career INTs, 1 FF, 3 FRs, 3.0 sacks, 9 TFLs.  Last season:  1 INT, 1 FR, 4 TFLs 

Did you watch any Jets games last year?

[JustInFudge]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

The same people who question this also wonder why people like Mike Maccagnan ever get GM jobs in the league.  All it takes is one dumb GM to misunderstand positional importance and practice market inefficiency for a favorable trade to happen.  

Not saying it WILL happen.  Only that a lot CAN happen.  And if we do find a dumb GM out there to give us a 1st & 3rd (or perhaps more), we SHOULD pull the trigger.  

Not sure why this consistently has proven to be so hard for people to understand.

You know when that type haul DOES happen?    When your trading for one of the best players in the league.  Why is this so consistently hard for you to understand?

 

 

[JustInFudge]

2 minutes ago, BettyBoop said:

It didn't?

It means something when other safeties do it.  When Jamal scores 2 TD's on the season and gets 6.5 sacks (something no other Safety did this year), it's meaningless.

This is legit one of the dumbest conversations I've ever been a part of but I cant turn away because it's so amazing the sh*t that people are coming up with to defend this moronic position. 

[Jet Nut]

10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Not saying it WILL happen.  Only that a lot CAN happen.  And if we do find a dumb GM out there to give us a 1st & 3rd (or perhaps more), we SHOULD pull the trigger.  

Why would you trade your best player for a lower 1st round pick than the one spent on that player and a mid 3rd round pick?

How is that a way to build a team and why is this so hard to understand and needs so many imaginary reasons to justify it?  

[joewilly12]

32 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

What exactly did Jamal do to help them?  He couldn't have been spending much time ensuring they're in the right spots when he was freelancing at the LOS.  

The DC Gregg Williams determines where Jamal Adams lines up and where he plays he is not a freelancer on his own. 

Piss poor argument on your behalf. 

As someone else said, you are truly embarrassing yourself. 

[sec101row23]

21 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

The same people who question this also wonder why people like Mike Maccagnan ever get GM jobs in the league.  All it takes is one dumb GM to misunderstand positional importance and practice market inefficiency for a favorable trade to happen.  

Not saying it WILL happen.  Only that a lot CAN happen.  And if we do find a dumb GM out there to give us a 1st & 3rd (or perhaps more), we SHOULD pull the trigger.  

Not sure why this consistently has proven to be so hard for people to understand.

Lol...so the entire premise of your argument is based on a GM needing to be f**king stupid.   That kind of ends the debate here doesn’t it?  

[Beerfish]

Well a defense has a very simple choice if they implement their SS the way the Jets implement Adams.

And that is you give up things to get things.

IF the SS is up on the line especially the end of the line on a lot of plays you get some extra tackles in run defense and of course you get the sacks.

You must account for the Ss being up high so you have to drop a LB into coverage (See Hewitt being asked to cover slots, WRs, TES ad getting killed all year)

You can give no safety help to your CBS vs particularly dangerous players.

If as some suggest we want to build the team around Adams skill set then we need to draft CBs, olbs that can cover and do not draft olb edge pass rushers at all.

[JustInFudge]

1 minute ago, sec101row23 said:

Lol...so the entire premise of your argument is based on a GM needing to be f**king stupid.   That kind of ends the debate here doesn’t it?  

[Jetsfan80]

It means something when other safeties do it.  When Jamal scores 2 TD's on the season and gets 6.5 sacks (something no other Safety did this year), it's meaningless.
This is legit one of the dumbest conversations I've ever been a part of but I cant turn away because it's so amazing the sh*t that people are coming up with to defend this moronic position. 

I agree that numbers are meaningful. But the inconsistency is what I have a problem with.

You can’t say Jamal’s sacks mattered then turn around and say the numbers aren’t meaningful for other Safeties.

You also can’t ignore Jamal’s 0.66 INTs per season. It’s a glaring deficiency for those who try to argue Jamal plays 5-6 different positions on D.

[Stark]

1 minute ago, joewilly12 said:

The DC Gregg Williams determines where Jamal Adams lines up and where he plays he is not a freelancer on his own. 

Piss poor argument on your behalf. 

As someone else said, you are truly embarrassing yourself. 

fun fact we lost enough LB's. It's not Jamal's fault. Good thing he is versatile enough to help fill a void.

Mosely, Williamson, Cashman, McClellan

But, yeah we were playing our "normal" defense and Jamal is an irresponsible, overated free-lancer, that gets to be on the field all the time because Greg Williams is intimidated by Jamal and wouldn't correct/bench him if this was true...

lol.

Some people will find any reason to hate/dislike Jamal because of where he was drafted. this "debate" has become comical at this point. 

[sec101row23]

6 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Well a defense has a very simple choice if they implement their SS the way the Jets implement Adams.

And that is you give up things to get things.

IF the SS is up on the line especially the end of the line on a lot of plays you get some extra tackles in run defense and of course you get the sacks.

You must account for the Ss being up high so you have to drop a LB into coverage (See Hewitt being asked to cover slots, WRs, TES ad getting killed all year)

You can give no safety help to your CBS vs particularly dangerous players.

If as some suggest we want to build the team around Adams skill set then we need to draft CBs, olbs that can cover and do not draft olb edge pass rushers at all.

Edge rusher solves many issues.  If you can generate pass rush without having to use your safety, you don’t need to drop a LBer in coverage.  Solve for Edge.  

[Jet Nut]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You also can’t ignore Jamal’s 0.66 INTs per season. It’s a glaring deficiency for those who try to argue Jamal plays 5-6 different positions on D.

Youre giving us the average INT per season for a 3rd year player and then calling it a glaring deficiency?  After carrying on that hes asked to line up at the LOS and play in ways other than pass defense?  

 

[Stark]

4 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Youre giving us the average INT per season for a 3rd year player and then calling it a glaring deficiency?  After carrying on that hes asked to line up at the LOS and play in ways other than pass defense?  

 

80 gonna 80

[Beerfish]

5 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Edge rusher solves many issues.  If you can generate pass rush without having to use your safety, you don’t need to drop a LBer in coverage.  Solve for Edge.  

Exactly and the year after we have paid Jamal Adams 15 million per year he is going to have 1.5 sacks and his tackle numbers will fall as well.  He will then have to cover a lot more and be like the vast majority of Ss in this league.

[Jet Nut]

5 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Exactly and the year after we have paid Jamal Adams 15 million per year he is going to have 1.5 sacks and his tackle numbers will fall as well.  He will then have to cover a lot more and be like the vast majority of Ss in this league.

On what level does this make any sense?

Where is the basis for this?

Other than dreaming up a scenario from under a dark cloud of doom and gloom.