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joewilly12

Jets slow rebuild a product of disjointed team timelines

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One could argue that the Jets do not have a disjointed timeline anymore.  

They are building gradually through the draft.

The fact that the QB is on year 3/5 of his rookie contract and needs development is irrelevant.  As is the fact that the coach needs a good roster to not get fired.  Maybe this is a test to see how Gase does with a bad roster.

JD is not overdrafting or overpaying WR.  At this point they sign players short term and draft the players they like the best.

That is what it looks like to me.  

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50 year rebuild what's another decade? take your time, fellas!

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18 minutes ago, varjet said:

One could argue that the Jets do not have a disjointed timeline anymore.  

They are building gradually through the draft.

The fact that the QB is on year 3/5 of his rookie contract and needs development is irrelevant.  As is the fact that the coach needs a good roster to not get fired.  Maybe this is a test to see how Gase does with a bad roster.

JD is not overdrafting or overpaying WR.  At this point they sign players short term and draft the players they like the best.

That is what it looks like to me.  

 

Of course they're disjointed.  

Coach wants to win now to save his job, GM wants to save money and build for the future.

QB wants consistency with his offense.  You don't want to bring in a third offense for your young qB to learn in 4 years.  That's the definition of disjointed.

The point of the article is you really want your GM, HC and QB all on the same timeline - currently they're all on different ones.

It's only not disjointed if it's JD plan to cut Sam, fire Gase and draft a QB at number after this year.`And in that case you're right, but I don't think Gase is going anywhere.

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14 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

 

Of course they're disjointed.  

Coach wants to win now to save his job, GM wants to save money and build for the future.

QB wants consistency with his offense.  You don't want to bring in a third offense for your young qB to learn in 4 years.  That's the definition of disjointed.

The point of the article is you really want your GM, HC and QB all on the same timeline - currently they're all on different ones.

It's only not disjointed if it's JD plan to cut Sam, fire Gase and draft a QB at number after this year.`And in that case you're right, but I don't think Gase is going anywhere.

I don't necessarily agree with that , Sam is still on his rookie contract  and Gase IMO is going nowhere as he has a good working relationship with Douglas and the owner likes him.

They presumptively have the QB, they took steps to building the Oline, they drafted some skilled offensive players who unfortunately are hurt . They also have cap and draft capital going into next year. I think the foundation has been laid and the Jets are finally building the right way as opposed to bringing in overpriced aging vets to wring a few more wins out of a noting season. 

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3 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

I don't necessarily agree with that , Sam is still on his rookie contract  and Gase IMO is going nowhere as he has a good working relationship with Douglas and the owner likes him.

They presumptively have the QB, they took steps to building the Oline, they drafted some skilled offensive players who unfortunately are hurt . They also have cap and draft capital going into next year. I think the foundation has been laid and the Jets are finally building the right way as opposed to bringing in overpriced aging vets to wring a few more wins out of a noting season. 

Although the Jets reportedly have among the highest available cap space now, from my recollection they started the offseason with a lot of holes and not necessarily a lot of cap space.  Releasing Winters, trading Jamal and Mosley opting out freed up (or deferred) cap space.  

But for those that agree that there now is a plan in place (there was not before), the key for JD is to execute the plan.  Building through the draft is tough to see when all of the draft picks are hurt except a few, who all actually look great to decent.  

The value OL signings not looking too hot right now, although Lewis looks decent to good.  

I would have spent the extra money on Robby, even if for only two years.  

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13 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

They presumptively have the QB, they took steps to building the Oline, they drafted some skilled offensive players who unfortunately are hurt . They also have cap and draft capital going into next year. I think the foundation has been laid and the Jets are finally building the right way as opposed to bringing in overpriced aging vets to wring a few more wins out of a noting season. 

You're absolutely correct that the foundation has been laid.. for a new QB.. next season..

Offensive line is the more difficult of the two position groups to put together and it takes time for that group to really gel. So a wasted season allowing those guys time to get ready for the high round QB seem much more likely than making the commitment to Darnold come this offseason. 

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5 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

You're absolutely correct that the foundation has been laid.. for a new QB.. next season..

Offensive line is the more difficult of the two position groups to put together and it takes time for that group to really gel. So a wasted season allowing those guys time to get ready for the high round QB seem much more likely than making the commitment to Darnold come this offseason. 

I'm not convinced . Taking a rookie QB  in essence pushes back the cycle a bit . Having Sam in the same system ( I know all will say the system sucks - patience my friends, patience) for another year and adding pieces is better IMO . Plus Sam is still young so its not like we're working with a 30 year old QB . 

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15 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

Johnson admitted last week that he waited too long to fire Maccagann. It was a costly mistake.

Joe Douglas replaced Maccagnan in June 2019, but his first year was a wash because the roster was largely set. Imagine how things would have been different had Douglas been hired in January 2019 with Gase and the two could strip down the roster and rebuild the way they envisioned.

A bit of revisionist history/fantasy here. There's no telling if Joe Douglas would've even been on the Jets radar back in January of 2019, or is he even would've been available. My guess is that he wouldn't've been. Chris Johnson said shortly after firing Maccagnan that he was uncomfortable firing both Mac and Bowles at the same time because he was a novice owner and thought filling both jobs at once would've been too daunting. I took him at face value there. Letting Mac try to save his job with another predictable first rounder and a huge free agent class was a mistake, though. But he didn't have the confidence to intervene. 

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It’s funny because Gase certainly isn’t coaching as if he needs - or wants- to win now.

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there's no such thing as rebuilding in the modern NFL 

only reloading

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5 minutes ago, slats said:

A bit of revisionist history/fantasy here. There's no telling if Joe Douglas would've even been on the Jets radar back in January of 2019, or is he even would've been available. My guess is that he wouldn't've been. Chris Johnson said shortly after firing Maccagnan that he was uncomfortable firing both Mac and Bowles at the same time because he was a novice owner and thought filling both jobs at once would've been too daunting. I took him at face value there. Letting Mac try to save his job with another predictable first rounder and a huge free agent class was a mistake, though. But he didn't have the confidence to intervene. 

That sentence sums up this sh*t show of a franchise. Ownership has no clue on how to do what needs to be done. That admission is far worse than what any coach or GM, past or present, has done, or could ever do, to this team.

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33 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

I don't necessarily agree with that , Sam is still on his rookie contract  and Gase IMO is going nowhere as he has a good working relationship with Douglas and the owner likes him.

They presumptively have the QB, they took steps to building the Oline, they drafted some skilled offensive players who unfortunately are hurt . They also have cap and draft capital going into next year. I think the foundation has been laid and the Jets are finally building the right way as opposed to bringing in overpriced aging vets to wring a few more wins out of a noting season. 

All the injuries are killing them, but I don't know how many more free passes Gase or Darnold is gonna get. Does Joe Douglas even want to save Gase's ass? Because while he doesn't have the authority to fire him, I'm pretty confident that he has CJ's ear more than anyone else in the organization. 

If the Jets are in top five draft pick stratosphere once again, do they blame the injuries and the coach for Darnold's poor performance? Or does Joe Douglas use the collapse of 2020 to seize control of the team and put his head coach and their QB in place along with JD's second full offseason. With or without Gase and/or Darnold (Gase goes waaaaaaaay before Darnold, IMHO), the team needs to look competent next year at the very least. What's JD's best course of action to get there? Stay the course? Keep Darnold and bring in a new offensive guy who wants to work with him? Or clean house? There's a lot of season left to play, but if the Jets don't stop looking like a bottom feeder by the second half of the year, I think a house-cleaning will probably be in order. 

And while the Johnson's have never fired a HC during the season, Darnold's timeline might accelerate Gase's exit. I'm sure everyone's fully away that Gregg Williams took over for the Browns and Mayfield came to life under him. The Jets could fire Gase and Loggains, promote Williams and Cooter, and see if that jump starts their QB before making a decision on him next winter. 

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1 minute ago, section314 said:

That sentence sums up this sh*t show of a franchise. Ownership has no clue on how to do what needs to be done. That admission is far worse than what any coach or GM, past or present, has done, or could ever do, to this team.

In a best case scenario, the Jets have their acts together and have a plan for long-term success, but the 2020 season is being sacrificed, as are probably Gase and Darnold as well.   That is the best case scenario.

I don't think the Jets are seriously competing this season.   Just look at the the schedule:

1) AFC West (Chiefs, etc.), NFC West (49ers, Seahawks, etc.) (12,000 miles of travel)

2) Patriots with Newton and Bills before Josh Allen gets extension.

3) Still rebuilding, no Mosley.

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3 minutes ago, slats said:

All the injuries are killing them, but I don't know how many more free passes Gase or Darnold is gonna get. Does Joe Douglas even want to save Gase's ass? Because while he doesn't have the authority to fire him, I'm pretty confident that he has CJ's ear more than anyone else in the organization. 

If the Jets are in top five draft pick stratosphere once again, do they blame the injuries and the coach for Darnold's poor performance? Or does Joe Douglas use the collapse of 2020 to seize control of the team and put his head coach and their QB in place along with JD's second full offseason. With or without Gase and/or Darnold (Gase goes waaaaaaaay before Darnold, IMHO), the team needs to look competent next year at the very least. What's JD's best course of action to get there? Stay the course? Keep Darnold and bring in a new offensive guy who wants to work with him? Or clean house? There's a lot of season left to play, but if the Jets don't stop looking like a bottom feeder by the second half of the year, I think a house-cleaning will probably be in order. 

And while the Johnson's have never fired a HC during the season, Darnold's timeline might accelerate Gase's exit. I'm sure everyone's fully away that Gregg Williams took over for the Browns and Mayfield came to life under him. The Jets could fire Gase and Loggains, promote Williams and Cooter, and see if that jump starts their QB before making a decision on him next winter. 

My problem is you fire Gase and dump Sam then your starting over with a new QB , a new system and new HC.  The cycle just keeps repeating. It's been the Browns model for the past two decades. So what if Lawrence is not what everyone predicts he'll be or if the new HC doesn't mesh with him then your setting everything back another 2-3 years.  I think they need to stay the course , the foundation is being built  albeit not as quickly as many here would like including myself.

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27 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

I'm not convinced . Taking a rookie QB  in essence pushes back the cycle a bit . Having Sam in the same system ( I know all will say the system sucks - patience my friends, patience) for another year and adding pieces is better IMO . Plus Sam is still young so its not like we're working with a 30 year old QB . 

but you'll be working with a QB who will be on his 2nd contract...a new QB and coach isn't as bad as you think it is... Gase has had many years to produce an offense that cracked the top 20....but you're just like, "It's gonna happen one day!"

You reference the Browns, but what about all the other teams that have rookie or 2nd year QBs with new coaches that are scoring points?

Time doesn't turn sh*t into gold. 

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3 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

My problem is you fire Gase and dump Sam then your starting over with a new QB , a new system and new HC.  The cycle just keeps repeating. It's been the Browns model for the past two decades. So what if Lawrence is not what everyone predicts he'll be or if the new HC doesn't mesh with him then your setting everything back another 2-3 years.  I think they need to stay the course , the foundation is being built  albeit not as quickly as many here would like including myself.

I'm not advocating, I'm speculating. What do you do at QB and HC if this team is 4-12 or worse this year? I mean, they could turn things around -they did last year- but right now four wins seems like a lot. You might want to continue to stay the course, but that's gonna be a hard sell for the majority of fans - and maybe inside the building, too. 

I also think JD could still get a first rounder or more for Darnold if he puts him on the market, and Darnold would probably be happy to help facilitate the trade. 

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42 minutes ago, slats said:

A bit of revisionist history/fantasy here. There's no telling if Joe Douglas would've even been on the Jets radar back in January of 2019, or is he even would've been available. My guess is that he wouldn't've been. Chris Johnson said shortly after firing Maccagnan that he was uncomfortable firing both Mac and Bowles at the same time because he was a novice owner and thought filling both jobs at once would've been too daunting. I took him at face value there. Letting Mac try to save his job with another predictable first rounder and a huge free agent class was a mistake, though. But he didn't have the confidence to intervene. 

Brian Costello 

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It's obvious JD's plan is his plan and he's not going to let Darnold's timeline interfere with that.  And unfortunately, I tend to agree with JD.  While I really like Darnold and want him to be the face of the franchise we've shown time and time again that a quick fix and winning free agency isn't going to get us there long term.  While I wish JD provided Darnold more weapons on offense to truly judge Darnold I do understand the strategy and building for the future.  Fixing Idzik and Macc's terrible decisions unfortunately isn't happening overnight and with the timing of JD's hire last year the clock really only starts ticking for him now since he's only had one draft.

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26 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

I think they need to stay the course , the foundation is being built  albeit not as quickly as many here would like including myself.

Stay the course, as in retain Gase and resign Darnold to a 2nd contract?

What have you seen from either of them to warrant that kind of investment?  Gase is a horrible Coach producing the worst offenses in the NFL in his time to-date, and Sam looks more and more like a complete bust who will never be what Jets Fans fantasized he would be.

What is the worse sin, going 5-7 win seasons over and over and over hoping the guys you have will suddenly change who they are, or trying to find better Coaches and players to improve (and risk they might not be better after all)?

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41 minutes ago, bitonti said:

there's no such thing as rebuilding in the modern NFL 

only reloading

I generally agree, but our talent level seems so low compared to the best teams, I think we could be an exception.

It’s possible that I am overreacting to two bad games, but this team feels historically underpowered to me 

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4 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Are you somehow under the impression that I didn't realize that I was quoting an article? 

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Just now, slats said:

Are you somehow under the impression that I didn't realize that I was quoting an article? 

No I just wanted to make sure you knew I didn't write the article. I post the articles that I see are intriguing and may not always agree with all of them. Thanks 

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29 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

My problem is you fire Gase and dump Sam then your starting over with a new QB , a new system and new HC.  The cycle just keeps repeating. It's been the Browns model for the past two decades. So what if Lawrence is not what everyone predicts he'll be or if the new HC doesn't mesh with him then your setting everything back another 2-3 years.  I think they need to stay the course , the foundation is being built  albeit not as quickly as many here would like including myself.

I want to agree with this, but Gase surviving a 2-14/3-13/4-12 (ish) season is inconceivable to me. 
 

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1 minute ago, joewilly12 said:

No I just wanted to make sure you knew I didn't write the article. I post the articles that I see are intriguing and may not always agree with all of them. Thanks 

Yeah, okay, you never have to do that. I can tell the difference when you post an article using two basic principles. First, your articles are generally posted in an unreadable font and, second, they tend to be far less knee-jerk reactionary than your original content. 

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16 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Stay the course, as in retain Gase and resign Darnold to a 2nd contract?

What have you seen from either of them to warrant that kind of investment?  Gase is a horrible Coach producing the worst offenses in the NFL in his time to-date, and Sam looks more and more like a complete bust who will never be what Jets Fans fantasized he would be.

What is the worse sin, going 5-7 win seasons over and over and over hoping the guys you have will suddenly change who they are, or trying to find better Coaches and players to improve (and risk they might not be better after all)?

I don't think this is the case, but it's not an accident that JD took Morgan in the 4th rd. And that they seem to be hiding him like the Canadians did the hostages in Iran years ago. This thing continues to turn to sh*t, don't be surprised if they bypass White and go straight to Morgan.

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1 hour ago, 56mehl56 said:

I don't necessarily agree with that , Sam is still on his rookie contract  and Gase IMO is going nowhere as he has a good working relationship with Douglas and the owner likes him.

They presumptively have the QB, they took steps to building the Oline, they drafted some skilled offensive players who unfortunately are hurt . They also have cap and draft capital going into next year. I think the foundation has been laid and the Jets are finally building the right way as opposed to bringing in overpriced aging vets to wring a few more wins out of a noting season. 

Okay, I agree with the bolded and believe that to be accurate.

Where I disagree is with Darnold.  I believe JD has already given up on Sam and we will be bringing in a new QB.  That, of course, causes all kinds of problems.  Because after Gase fails with the new guy (and he will) and JD is tied to Gase - we'll have to start all over again, bringing in a new GM and/or coach but already committed to a QB.

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6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Okay, I agree with the bolded and believe that to be accurate.

Where I disagree is with Darnold.  I believe JD has already given up on Sam and we will be bringing in a new QB.  That, of course, causes all kinds of problems.  Because after Gase fails with the new guy (and he will) and JD is tied to Gase - we'll have to start all over again, bringing in a new GM and/or coach but already committed to a QB.

Was this a CNN report or something you saw on Access Hollywood, cmon why would you feel JD has already given up on Sam  

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There is no disjointed timeline.  The coach is incompetent. He's not good enough. I could qoute  source after source and it wouldn't make it any clearer.  As long as he's here... nothing will get better.  Even a new coach worth his salt would get this roster to a certain amount of wins.

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11 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Okay, I agree with the bolded and believe that to be accurate.

Where I disagree is with Darnold.  I believe JD has already given up on Sam and we will be bringing in a new QB.  That, of course, causes all kinds of problems.  Because after Gase fails with the new guy (and he will) and JD is tied to Gase - we'll have to start all over again, bringing in a new GM and/or coach but already committed to a QB.

1.) Joe Douglas may be hedging his bets, but there's no way he's already given up on Sam. 

2.) A plausible theoretic future scenario where the Jets unload Darnold but keep Gase does not exist. Darnold could (easily, IMHO) outlast Gase, not a chance Gase outlasts Sam. 

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30 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Stay the course, as in retain Gase and resign Darnold to a 2nd contract?

What have you seen from either of them to warrant that kind of investment?  Gase is a horrible Coach producing the worst offenses in the NFL in his time to-date, and Sam looks more and more like a complete bust who will never be what Jets Fans fantasized he would be.

What is the worse sin, going 5-7 win seasons over and over and over hoping the guys you have will suddenly change who they are, or trying to find better Coaches and players to improve (and risk they might not be better after all)?

That's part of the problem , Jet fans have become so intolerant and impatient. I get it , its been 50 years blah blah blah . Look at some of Sam's games last season - Cowboys , Raiders , he has the talent , they just need to solidify the offense. Combine injuries , lack of practice/hitting due to CBA/Covid  and facing two quality opponents right out of the gate the start of the season  was destined to be a nightmare given the circumstances. 

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33 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I want to agree with this, but Gase surviving a 2-14/3-13/4-12 (ish) season is inconceivable to me. 
 

In essence what difference does the record make. This year was all about setting a foundation.

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15 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Okay, I agree with the bolded and believe that to be accurate.

Where I disagree is with Darnold.  I believe JD has already given up on Sam and we will be bringing in a new QB.  That, of course, causes all kinds of problems.  Because after Gase fails with the new guy (and he will) and JD is tied to Gase - we'll have to start all over again, bringing in a new GM and/or coach but already committed to a QB.

Follow the money.

Darnold is theoretically a $20+mm/year QB talent who is under contract for cheap next year.

So the Jets are either trading him for high picks or using him.  

I think his combination of good and bad games is a reflection of the coaching.   Who are the Jets signing to play QB better than Darnold for what Darnold currently makes?  Look at what we paid Fitzpatrick and McCown.

He is going nowhere unless he is traded for an Adams like deal, and then Flacco and Morgan play.

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