Sam & the great QB’s of the past

[Fantasy Island]

Honestly, name one positive influence Sam has had here since being drafted?

I'll wait.........

[Wonderboy]

1 hour ago, The Crusher said:

Yeah, nothing creepy here

Here ya go big guy- gonna text these guys to go after Gase

 

[Jetsfan80]

38 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

Learn to read. What are you like 13? Puberty is a biatch.

Why would I read this thread?

[Wonderboy]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Why would I read this thread?

Who said you can read?

[Wonderboy]

28 minutes ago, Fantasy Island said:

Honestly, name one positive influence Sam has had here since being drafted?

I'll wait.........

He played a big part in getting Mac fired so there’s that.

[Wonderboy]

23 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Why would I read this thread?

Maybe you’ll learn something about yourself.

“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”

Herbert Spencer

[CTM]

2 hours ago, nico002 said:

Math is hard, I know 

(F-)

Show your work nico!

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, nico002 said:

Way to pick a completely arbitrary number to fabricate your point. A 40 rating holds no relationship to a 3.8 rating. In fact a 40 rating is 7x closer to a 153 rating than it is to a 3.8 rating. Darnold had a 90 average outside of the 3.8. 

lol what?

The point is a 40 QB Rating is pathetically bad, and he was under 40 four different times in his career.  Meaning the New England game isn't his only "outlier".  

As a point of reference, Mitchell Trubisky has only had 2 such games (despite a longer career), and his career QB rating is 86.1 (Darnold's is 81.2).

And lol at any Darnold apologist taking issue with someone setting "arbitrary" goalposts.  You whackos are the kings at using "Week X - Week Y" parameters to try to make Darnold look great.  "He went 6-2!!!!!  And between Week 14-16 he was 12th in yardage!!!!"

[Icer]

I love when people fight the fact that Darnold has only played terrible in 4 games while forgetting to defend the other 20 games where he has been straight mediocre/subpar. Time is up, regardless of the coach, playcalls and weapons. We need significant progress, or that 5th year option is getting declined. Let's see what happens if they ever play more aggressively, right now I see a QB with hesitancy to throw the ball past the sticks and perfectly compliant to go with whatever sh*t Gase is dialing up. 

[BurnleyJet]

To be fair to Sam’s had zero help, I also hate the coach. I’m genuinely worried if we do Draft Trevor Lawrence, we will ruin him also. You can’t have any young QB roll out with this sh*t show and no receivers.
 

I hope they can Gase soon, and JBC takes over the OC position, and they design an offence to use Darnold’s skills, just to see if he’s salvageable. That’s my hope for 2020. That how bad it’s got.

[Losmeister]

considering all the hype about him and we spent 4 draft piks by the worst(?) gm we have had...  how do you conclude sam is a secret elite qb?

he is crap at reading  defenses, crap technique and flat out scared of contact.

 

[Losmeister]

nicoise salad is another person who is outta touch with reality..

 

he cherry pciks stats then crits u when you use all the data...     an adolescent arsewipe milquetoast poster..

but, yet, you guys still engage him...  go out and seek a drug addled crazy homeless person and ur chance of reasoning with them is about the same...

(no insult to those who have to deal iwth addiction and mental health issues)

[Losmeister]

1 hour ago, Icer said:

I love when people fight the fact that Darnold has only played terrible in 4 games while forgetting to defend the other 20 games where he has been straight mediocre/subpar. Time is up, regardless of the coach, playcalls and weapons. We need significant progress, or that 5th year option is getting declined. Let's see what happens if they ever play more aggressively, right now I see a QB with hesitancy to throw the ball past the sticks and perfectly compliant to go with whatever sh*t Gase is dialing up. 

you forgot to add that he is a pussy who doenst like contact

[OilfieldJet]

Hey Los, forensic posts as usual. Not sure why we have this hand-wringing over yet another QB savior to be. We play him until the end of the year and make a choice. It sucks that he has few weapons and a poor coach, but life is tough! I’m sure he won’t be the first “star potential” QB to be the front man at a car dealership. 
 

Jets will be consistently disadvantaged while the Johnson’s own the team. Maybe, if JD is the real deal and given some authority, we have some hope. But if the Johnson brothers continue to exercise any decision making, we have no hope.

[jgb]

8 hours ago, bitonti said:

Look we can talk about all the bull crap in the world about Sam.

Bottom line he's due a 25 mil 5th year option and he's not looking like he's worth 25 cents


Sent from my Pixel 2 using JetNation.com mobile app
 

Exactly. You only pay $25M to guys you are confident are worth $25M, not to guys who you can rationalize *might* be worth that in a hypothetical different set of circumstances.

[nico002]

7 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

lol what?

The point is a 40 QB Rating is pathetically bad, and he was under 40 four different times in his career.  Meaning the New England game isn't his only "outlier".  

As a point of reference, Mitchell Trubisky has only had 2 such games (despite a longer career), and his career QB rating is 86.1 (Darnold's is 81.2).

And lol at any Darnold apologist taking issue with someone setting "arbitrary" goalposts.  You whackos are the kings at using "Week X - Week Y" parameters to try to make Darnold look great.  "He went 6-2!!!!!  And between Week 14-16 he was 12th in yardage!!!!"

You don’t understand math, it’s ok. 
 

By the way, other than the 3.8 Darnold didn’t have a game under a 71 rating last year. And he hasn’t had one of your so called frequent 40 rating games since week 9 of 2018. Another false narrative by “jet fan”80. You’re a fraud.

By the way, Russell Wilson also had 4 40 rating games in his first two years, Peyton had 3. This is really a indictment on Darnold you’ve found here. What a joke. 

[Fantasy Island]

8 hours ago, Wonderboy said:

He played a big part in getting Mac fired so there’s that.

My bad. I meant coaching wise.

[jgb]

13 minutes ago, nico002 said:

You don’t understand math, it’s ok. 
 

By the way, other than the 3.8 Darnold didn’t have a game under a 71 rating last year. And he hasn’t had one of your so called frequent 40 rating games since week 9 of 2018. Another false narrative by “jet fan”80. You’re a fraud.

Serious question: with what you know now, do you pay Darnold $25M for a fifth year? If yes, do you think that decision will help or hinder the team's ability to find/pay the "weapinz" that even the most ardent Sam supports he needs to appear to be a competent QB.

[nico002]

10 minutes ago, jgb said:

Serious question with what you know now, do you pay Darnold $25M for a fifth year? If yes, do you think that decision will help or hinder the team's ability to find/pay the "weapinz" that even the most ardent Sam supports he needs to appear to be a competent QB.

Who the hell knows? It’s been 2 years, there are two full seasons to go before they decision is made. This whole “rookie contract” window is the biggest BS going in the NFL. I guess KC is depleted of weapons now that mahomes got paid? Brees hasn’t had weapons his whole career either. Good thing Brady took a pay cut to allow NE to sign all those weapons.

[nico002]

7 hours ago, Icer said:

I love when people fight the fact that Darnold has only played terrible in 4 games while forgetting to defend the other 20 games where he has been straight mediocre/subpar. Time is up, regardless of the coach, playcalls and weapons. We need significant progress, or that 5th year option is getting declined. Let's see what happens if they ever play more aggressively, right now I see a QB with hesitancy to throw the ball past the sticks and perfectly compliant to go with whatever sh*t Gase is dialing up. 

I love when people ignore facts and invent false narratives. Sam Darnolds averages from his top 20 games (71% of starts)

67% comp 4802 yards 34 TD 13 Int 97 rating 

very sub par 

thats with the worst skill group in the leuage, the worst oline in the leuage, and mono. I honestly don’t know what else anyone could hope for 
 

 

[bitonti]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

Exactly. You only pay $25M to guys you are confident are worth $25M, not to guys who you can rationalize *might* be worth that in a hypothetical different set of circumstances.

yup. it's dumb to pay the 25 mil you have to long term extend him next year to the tune of Matt Stafford 100 mil 

and none of that seems smart

but even if that WAS something this franchise wanted to do, the ownership forgot their ATM pin code for the last 10 years

when's the last time the Johnsons gave 20 mil to anyone for any reason?

the fanbase need to realize that gase and sam are tied at the hip and both are hopefully done  as NYJ after this year 

[nico002]

3 minutes ago, bitonti said:

yup. it's dumb to pay the 25 mil you have to long term extend him next year to the tune of Matt Stafford 100 mil 

and none of that seems smart

but even if that WAS something this franchise wanted to do, the ownership forgot their ATM pin code for the last 10 years

when's the last time the Johnsons gave 20 mil to anyone for any reason?

the fanbase need to realize that gase and sam are tied at the hip and both are hopefully done  as NYJ after this year 

Wrong on all fronts 

[Waka Flocka Flacco]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

yup. it's dumb to pay the 25 mil you have to long term extend him next year to the tune of Matt Stafford 100 mil 

and none of that seems smart

but even if that WAS something this franchise wanted to do, the ownership forgot their ATM pin code for the last 10 years

when's the last time the Johnsons gave 20 mil to anyone for any reason?

the fanbase need to realize that gase and sam are tied at the hip and both are hopefully done  as NYJ after this year 

I think they have to be, because if they're not then Douglas is tied to them too, and you would have to think a presumably sane person would not want that.

[GreekJet]

Watch Justin Herbert and compare him to Sam. One player looks confident when he throws the ball. The other does not. 
 

Sam doesn’t step into his throws, he leaves the pocket early, and is not accurate outside of 10 yards. 
 

 

[nico002]

1 minute ago, GreekJet said:

Watch Justin Herbert and compare him to Sam. One player looks confident when he throws the ball. The other does not. 
 

Sam doesn’t step into his throws, he leaves the pocket early, and is not accurate outside of 10 yards. 
 

 

lol obvious troll is obvious 

[Waka Flocka Flacco]

9 hours ago, Fantasy Island said:

Honestly, name one positive influence Sam has had here since being drafted?

I'll wait.........

A positive influence? Why are we talking about a high net worth individual like he is a troubled teen?

@CTM

(Did I do that right?)

[Sperm Edwards]

Being fair, if you want any credibility by throwing out entire football games when it doesn’t suit an argument, then throw out other things that have far more real-assessment value.

Like when a team is up on the Jets by 3 scores with 3 min left and the D goes into full prevent . Even if we score a TD in 1.5 to 2 min then it’s mission accomplished for their D by allowing every underneath, non-sideline pass we want to march downfield. That’s not really an assessment of how good of a QB he is since Luke Falk could do the same thing with little difficulty — not unless that’s the type of D a QB has to typically overcome to prove his worth.

So the Jets’ extreme PF/PA disparity has been pivotal in helping Darnold’s numbers:

vs. Buffalo

Toss out the last garbage time possession. Losing 27-10, starting the drive from the 14 with 3 minutes left, it’s nonsense to count 7/8 passing for 57 yards since the upside is being down 2 scores and kicking off with about a minute left. Buffalo knew it, too, which is why they let him dink & dunk down the field. 

Darnold’s true week 1 was what he was before that, so 21/35 (60%) 215/1/1 (75 passer rating) was really 14/27 (52%) 158/1/1 (65 rating). Isn’t that a lot closer to what you remember watching?

And an equal statistical outlier is the 69-yard TD to Crowder, since Crowder caught the ball behind the LOS and ran 69.5 yards with it, with Darnold getting credit as though he’d shredded the D with a cannon throw that hit his receiver in full stride down the sideline. I’m not removing that from the numbers, but everyone knows that he threw a 0-yard pass not a 69-yard TD, since there was more than 69 YAC. 

vs. San Fran

Again toss out the last garbage time possession. Down 31-6 with 3 min left, there wasn’t even a theoretical possibility of a comeback even if we were using Bo Jackson in Tecmo. The Jets’ TD drive didn’t help the Jets’ comeback possibilities even a little bit, yet it was pivotal in erasing to Darnold’s tragic numbers from when his attempts actually counted. 

21/32 (66%), 179/1/0 (90.5) — see, this looks like he had a sort of decent game overall

Again remove the “outlier” garbage time drive SF let him have, since it served their interest to let him complete dumpoffs that kept the clock running.  Without this outlier drive, his SF numbers look more like what you remember:

15/26 (58%), 103/0/0 (66.7) — this isn’t pretty decent overall; it’s tragic

2-game total this year (removing the 2 useless garbage time drives):

29/53 (54.7%), 261/1/1 (4.9 Y/A, 66.3 passer rating)

These are sub-Geno Smith numbers even leaving in a 69-yard TD pass that was 69.5 YAC.

But yeah, #OutlierStats or something, lol.

[nico002]

3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Being fair, if you want any credibility by throwing out entire football games when it doesn’t suit an argument, then throw out other things that have far more real-assessment value.

Like when a team is up on the Jets by 3 scores with 3 min left and the D goes into full prevent . Even if we score a TD in 1.5 to 2 min then it’s mission accomplished for their D by allowing every underneath, non-sideline pass we want to march downfield. That’s not really an assessment of how good of a QB he is since Luke Falk could do the same thing with little difficulty — not unless that’s the type of D a QB has to typically overcome to prove his worth.

So the Jets’ extreme PF/PA disparity has been pivotal in helping Darnold’s numbers:

vs. Buffalo

Toss out the last garbage time possession. Losing 27-10, starting the drive from the 14 with 3 minutes left, it’s nonsense to count 7/8 passing for 57 yards since the upside is being down 2 scores and kicking off with about a minute left. Buffalo knew it, too, which is why they let him dink & dunk down the field. 

Darnold’s true week 1 was what he was before that, so 21/35 (60%) 215/1/1 (75 passer rating) was really 14/27 (52%) 158/1/1 (65 rating). Isn’t that a lot closer to what you remember watching?

And an equal statistical outlier is the 69-yard TD to Crowder, since Crowder caught the ball behind the LOS and ran 69.5 yards with it, with Darnold getting credit as though he’d shredded the D with a cannon throw that hit his receiver in full stride down the sideline. I’m not removing that from the numbers, but everyone knows that he threw a 0-yard pass not a 69-yard TD, since there was more than 69 YAC. 

vs. San Fran

Again toss out the last garbage time possession. Down 31-6 with 3 min left, there wasn’t even a theoretical possibility of a comeback even if we were using Bo Jackson in Tecmo. The Jets’ TD drive didn’t help the Jets’ comeback possibilities even a little bit, yet it was pivotal in erasing to Darnold’s tragic numbers from when his attempts actually counted. 

21/32 (66%), 179/1/0 (90.5) — see, this looks like he had a sort of decent game overall

Again remove the “outlier” garbage time drive SF let him have, since it served their interest to let him complete dumpoffs that kept the clock running.  Without this outlier drive, his SF numbers look more like what you remember:

15/26 (58%), 103/0/0 (66.7) — this isn’t pretty decent overall; it’s tragic

2-game total this year (removing the 2 useless garbage time drives):

29/53 (54.7%), 261/1/1 (4.9 Y/A, 66.3 passer rating)

These are sub-Geno Smith numbers even leaving in a 69-yard TD pass that was 69.5 YAC.

But yeah, #OutlierStats or something, lol.

Where do drops get factored in this brilliant analysis? I mean I saw Darnold throw a perfect TD pass to Herndon that hit him square in the numbers. If that doesn’t off set the “garbage time” stats I don’t know what does. Regardless, you are focusing on two games this year I am talking about his entire career. I literally gave you Sam’s averages from his top 20 starts (71% of games) and you choose to ignore it over two games to open the pandemic season with literally no one to throw to. So yea sample size, outliers, etc- figure it out. 

[predator_05]

11 hours ago, Wonderboy said:

I don’t know ANY poster on this board who has declared Sam to be great. He hasn’t excelled like many new qb’s, past or present but that’s not the point. And to label him a bust is beyond stupid. He’s shown potential and is worth the wait to come around. The qb’s I mentioned went through even more difficult times than Sam has, overcame their obstacles and bloomed to become all time greats. 

You are 100% correct, but here's the problem:

1. the environment surrounding QBs has changed significantly. There is no patience. Fans are more demanding, owners are more demanding, and there is about 100x more discussion on the NFL than there was previously. Example: justin herbert of the chargers is having his entire career projected by today's 'experts' on the basis of...1 game. More pressure for results. 

2. More pressure for results, means coaching is not what it once was. Peyton manning used to have his collar grabbed by his coach, but you can't 'coach' players hard anymore. Players are practically left to 'figure it out on their own' because nervous, anxiety-ridden coaches no longer take the blame for losses. 

3. Players are less team-oriented and more selfish. The QB's authority is challenged by greedy players that tend to be unprofessional. Not saying this is the case with sam, but generally speaking, a young QB doesn't walk into a welcoming, cooperative environment. 

 

For a young QB to be successful in 2020, he needs a near-perfect set of circumstances: good coaches, good support cast, patient owner, and an unquestioned authority in trying times. If one of those elements is missing, the QB's likelihood of success is significantly lower. In 2020, you have less time to ease through your growing pains. 

[Sperm Edwards]

37 minutes ago, nico002 said:

Where do drops get factored in this brilliant analysis? I mean I saw Darnold throw a perfect TD pass to Herndon that hit him square in the numbers. If that doesn’t off set the “garbage time” stats I don’t know what does. Regardless, you are focusing on two games this year I am talking about his entire career. I literally gave you Sam’s averages from his top 20 starts (71% of games) and you choose to ignore it over two games to open the pandemic season with literally no one to throw to. So yea sample size, outliers, etc- figure it out. 

Drops are factored in because all QBs get them.

Mahomes was mentioned in the OP; well IIRC Demarcus Robinson flat-out dropped 2 TD passes on that first Thursday night game alone. Mahomes didn't do nothing the rest of the game - let alone the rest of the season - and leave Chiefs fans to console themselves by citing the TD (actually TDs) that got away. 

All QBs get dropped passes, and dropped TD passes at that. It's the same reason I left in the long TD to Crowder because other QBs get those, too. I felt while it was worth noting, since it's Darnold's only non-garbage-time TD of the season so far, but everyone knows it's not really an indication of outstanding quarterbacking. Crowder & Herndon more than cancel each other out here. 

If Darnold had 5-6 (or more) TDs this year, and Crowder's was merely one of them, it wouldn't have stood out so glaringly (or at all).

[nico002]

6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Well, drops are factored in because all QBs get them.

Mahomes was mentioned in the OP; well IIRC Demarcus Robinson flat-out dropped 2 TD passes on that first Thursday night game alone. Mahomes didn't do nothing the rest of the game - let alone the rest of the season - and leave Chiefs fans to console themselves by citing the TD (actually TDs) that got away. 

All QBs get dropped passes, and dropped TD passes at that. It's the same reason I left in the long TD to Crowder because other QBs get those, too. I felt while it was worth noting, since it's Darnold's only non-garbage-time TD of the season so far, but everyone knows it's not really an indication of outstanding quarterbacking. Crowder & Herndon more than cancel each other out here. 

If Darnold had 5-6 (or more) TDs this year, and Crowder's was merely one of them, it wouldn't have stood out so glaringly.

Every QB benefits from garbage time stats as well. Let’s stop pretending like Darnold has had some garbage time benefit his whole career... it’s been the exact opposite actually, I don’t think there is a QB in the leuage that has had to work harder for TDs than Darnold. No 70 yard screen passes here. If Darnold had 6 TDs this year he’d be on pace for 50- thats your expectation with this cast of stooges playing offense? It’s been two games, stop over reacting. 

[Sperm Edwards]

5 minutes ago, nico002 said:

Every QB benefits from garbage time stats as well. Let’s stop pretending like Darnold has had some garbage time benefit his whole career... it’s been the exact opposite actually, I don’t think there is a QB in the leuage that has had to work harder for TDs than Darnold. No 70 yard screen passes here. If Darnold had 6 TDs this year he’d be on pace for 50- thats your expectation with this cast of stooges playing offense? It’s been two games, stop over reacting. 

No, that's where you're wrong again. Every QB - particularly those who keep their teams in the game, or QB their teams to late leads - does not benefit from prevent defenses (let alone in 100% of the games thus far). Only teams trailing by 3 scores in the last few minutes of a game get spotted like this.

And it's all the more relevant here because these two useless, 100% worthless TD drives are the only things keeping him from numbers that'd label him as Ginger Geno this season. 

I'm not even as down on him as some are, but dude he's looked nothing like a worthwhile 3rd overall pick that should've gone #1 overall if Cleveland's GM had 2 brain cells.

[nico002]

5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No, that's where you're wrong again. Every QB - particularly those who keep their teams in the game, or QB their teams to late leads - does not benefit from prevent defenses (let alone in 100% of the games thus far). Only teams trailing by 3 scores in the last few minutes of a game get spotted like this.

And it's all the more relevant here because these two useless, 100% worthless TD drives are the only things keeping him from numbers that'd label him as Ginger Geno this season. 

Yet you keep ignoring the Herndon TD, or the inability to run for a 3rd and 4th and 1. And 3-4 other drive killing drops in the first two games. Or the Herndon fumble. All things out of the QBs control that would have kept drives going and off set “garbage time” stats. The idea that other QBs don’t ever fall behind is laughable, they all do and they all benefit from “prevent” defenses. Not to mention that every other QB out there has 1-3 guys that can take the ball make a play and make the QB look good. Those Hogan passes behind the line? Julio Jones is taking those to the house for Matt Ryan.  You can cherry pick as much as you want, it doesn’t change the fact that you are making blanket assumptions off two games. 

[Wonderboy]

30 minutes ago, predator_05 said:

You are 100% correct, but here's the problem:

1. the environment surrounding QBs has changed significantly. There is no patience. Fans are more demanding, owners are more demanding, and there is about 100x more discussion on the NFL than there was previously. Example: justin herbert of the chargers is having his entire career projected by today's 'experts' on the basis of...1 game. More pressure for results. 

2. More pressure for results, means coaching is not what it once was. Peyton manning used to have his collar grabbed by his coach, but you can't 'coach' players hard anymore. Players are practically left to 'figure it out on their own' because nervous, anxiety-ridden coaches no longer take the blame for losses. 

3. Players are less team-oriented and more selfish. The QB's authority is challenged by greedy players that tend to be unprofessional. Not saying this is the case with sam, but generally speaking, a young QB doesn't walk into a welcoming, cooperative environment. 

 

For a young QB to be successful in 2020, he needs a near-perfect set of circumstances: good coaches, good support cast, patient owner, and an unquestioned authority in trying times. If one of those elements is missing, the QB's likelihood of success is significantly lower. In 2020, you have less time to ease through your growing pains. 

Very good points. Post 2000, there’s not many QB’s that come to mind other than Rodgers and Brees. It’s the instant oatmeal mentality that has ruined many.  The QB position is a very unique one that takes time to develop. There’s been many like Vick and RG III who were ‘all that’ but lacked the qualities a Brady possessed to win a title.  And it’s the easiest position for an organization and HC to impede the progress of a can’t miss prospect. Testervde and Plunkett went through excruciating years before they finally escaped Gase-like torture and rose to their potential.  Hopefully Sam can outlast Gase here and find his way. 

[predator_05]

10 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

Very good points. Post 2000, there’s not many QB’s that come to mind other than Rodgers and Brees. It’s the instant oatmeal mentality that has ruined many.  The QB position is a very unique one that takes time to develop. There’s been many like Vick and RG III who were ‘all that’ but lacked the qualities a Brady possessed to win a title.  And it’s the easiest position for an organization and HC to impede the progress of a can’t miss prospect. Testervde and Plunkett went through excruciating years before they finally escaped Gase-like torture and rose to their potential.  Hopefully Sam can outlast Gase here and find his way. 

The odds are stacked against him. Maybe pocket passers are being phased out for those 'running' QBs like Lamar jackson and josh allen