Zach Wilson: My Scouting

[Larz]

tldr

[Larz]

J/k

Looking forward to reading it Txs 

[win4ever]

1 hour ago, johnnysd said:

Yeah I have said many times that its not so much that Wilson is good and Fields is bad but rather both are really good and it is a choice of who you think is better.

For me personally I have big issues with Fields though I recognize his athleticism. Obviously I am not privy to talking to him live or anything but I really don't like the way he comes across in interviews. In addition throwing out the throwing part of pro days, the one thing I noticed in the pro days is how the other players there were reacting to the QB. Alabama players LOVE Jones. Wilson's players seem to be at ease and very positive, smiling to Zach, but Fields was just aloof and alone. In this area, I thought Mills was pretty impressive he could be a hidden gem.

The other thing that bothers me about Fields is just sort of like "football awareness" People say he can't go through progressions and that is not true, Jeremiah says he can't commit to his second read, also not true. But I see a general "slowness" to his game. On his passes a lot of times there is like a little micro pause where it seems he needs to like double check before letting go. Darnold had this as well and I think it lead to a lot of his struggles.  Also his pocket awareness to me seems really mediocre at best. I think both of these will be really hard to overcome in the NFL.

In terms of the 90/10 -50/50 ball thing, JT in his videos keeps saying "dime or jump ball ?" but after watching him game after game after game throw the 90/10 ball as you mention I just sort of think he is just that good.

Yeah, if not for Fields I can see the argument for Wilson, because Mac Jones doesn't really excite me.  I think he has the same problem I had with Tua last year in that pretty much anyone could thrive in that offense.  I think Hackenberg would have stats in an offense where the entire offense around you could be drafted in the first round.  Lance is basically Wilson with better legs, but less accuracy.  Just pure athletic trait drafting, especially since he basically missed all of last year as well.  

I'm not that big into pro-days, those are just so scripted to the point that I don't know why people put stock in them.  The QBs will only throw passes that make them look great, or manipulate it's made to look great.  For example, I think the WR choices are very carefully picked out per throw.  If you have a weak arm throwing a deep pass, you want a slower guy running that route so it looks like you threw it in stride, rather than some burner having to wait up.  In the grand scheme it looks like a rotation, but I think the throwing calls are partially based on those rotations.  

I think the only pro-day that didn't look good was Bridgewater and that was about wearing gloves or something.  

I think part of why Fields seems slow is that OSU offense is really different than many college offenses.  They give a bunch of autonomy to the receivers to have options down the field, but then base secondary routes to flow from that option.  I don't really know if anyone else runs it that complex for the receivers (although not like I break down all the colleges so they very well could), but it impacts the scouting of QBs.  Meyer's system was extremely easy, quick outlet or mesh concepts to defeat any pressure, and then pick out the one on one match ups.  This one seems much more into down field passing than just moving the chains.  

Although, Fields definitely has his issues as well.  Fields has that never give up attitude that got Sanchez in trouble, where he thinks he can make that circus play, when he should just live to see another play.  His release is longer, which needs to be cleaned up as well.  He's not quite as good on anticipation throws as Wilson, waits a tad longer for routes to develop, but that might also be a product of the option system for WRs.  

I think Wilson could be that good, I just wish I saw it against better competition because there were some guys on that 2020 tape that shouldn't be playing defense on football.  

It'll be interesting to see how all this folds out.  

[Grandy]

13 minutes ago, win4ever said:

Yeah, if not for Fields I can see the argument for Wilson, because Mac Jones doesn't really excite me.  I think he has the same problem I had with Tua last year in that pretty much anyone could thrive in that offense.  I think Hackenberg would have stats in an offense where the entire offense around you could be drafted in the first round.  Lance is basically Wilson with better legs, but less accuracy.  Just pure athletic trait drafting, especially since he basically missed all of last year as well.  

I'm not that big into pro-days, those are just so scripted to the point that I don't know why people put stock in them.  The QBs will only throw passes that make them look great, or manipulate it's made to look great.  For example, I think the WR choices are very carefully picked out per throw.  If you have a weak arm throwing a deep pass, you want a slower guy running that route so it looks like you threw it in stride, rather than some burner having to wait up.  In the grand scheme it looks like a rotation, but I think the throwing calls are partially based on those rotations.  

I think the only pro-day that didn't look good was Bridgewater and that was about wearing gloves or something.  

I think part of why Fields seems slow is that OSU offense is really different than many college offenses.  They give a bunch of autonomy to the receivers to have options down the field, but then base secondary routes to flow from that option.  I don't really know if anyone else runs it that complex for the receivers (although not like I break down all the colleges so they very well could), but it impacts the scouting of QBs.  Meyer's system was extremely easy, quick outlet or mesh concepts to defeat any pressure, and then pick out the one on one match ups.  This one seems much more into down field passing than just moving the chains.  

Although, Fields definitely has his issues as well.  Fields has that never give up attitude that got Sanchez in trouble, where he thinks he can make that circus play, when he should just live to see another play.  His release is longer, which needs to be cleaned up as well.  He's not quite as good on anticipation throws as Wilson, waits a tad longer for routes to develop, but that might also be a product of the option system for WRs.  

I think Wilson could be that good, I just wish I saw it against better competition because there were some guys on that 2020 tape that shouldn't be playing defense on football.  

It'll be interesting to see how all this folds out.  

I have confidence that the competition thing wont be so detrimental. Theres not really a correlation between college level of competition, and pro success. Theres been a lot of guys who have beat up bad teams, but Wilson just put up the highest non-SEC QB rating in NCAA history. 

I think competition might affect how quickly he gets up to NFL speed but not his outlook.

I believe him and Fields have similar floors. Fields is more battle tested, consistently accurate and athletic while Wilson is further ahead in mechanics, manipulation, off-script, and anticipation. The same "Wilson wont be able to get away with that in the NFL" argument can be used for Fields' elongated motion, excessive time to throw, poor pocket management and slower playing speed.

 

[BroadwayRay]

21 hours ago, win4ever said:

I think part of why Fields seems slow is that OSU offense is really different than many college offenses.  

Fields is slow reacting to the blitz and pressure in general. I can't find it now, but I saw some stats recently that showed time-to-throw against the blitz for all the draft QBs. Fields was at the bottom of the list in terms of the time it took him to throw and the number of plays that resulted in sacks. It's definitely an issue that's giving some teams pause and something he needs to work on.

[win4ever]

On 4/24/2021 at 5:15 PM, Grandy said:

I have confidence that the competition thing wont be so detrimental. Theres not really a correlation between college level of competition, and pro success. Theres been a lot of guys who have beat up bad teams, but Wilson just put up the highest non-SEC QB rating in NCAA history. 

I think competition might affect how quickly he gets up to NFL speed but not his outlook.

I believe him and Fields have similar floors. Fields is more battle tested, consistently accurate and athletic while Wilson is further ahead in mechanics, manipulation, off-script, and anticipation. The same "Wilson wont be able to get away with that in the NFL" argument can be used for Fields' elongated motion, excessive time to throw, poor pocket management and slower playing speed.

 

Generally, yes I agree there isn't as much correlation between pro level success and competition level, but you can argue for causation between a significant talent advantage creating an uneven playing field.  

For example, Matt Leinart, or Tua last year.  They gad such advantages over their competition because their teams were just loaded.  Usually this doesn't happen quite often because loaded teams are usually in very good conferences, thus face talented defenses.  In Wilson's case, it's not that his team is loaded, it's that his team for the 2020 season was loaded in comparison to the competition.  He faced a good team in Coastal Carolina, and that performance wasn't the No. 2 overall pick performance.  

It's like some football player from whatever state community college coming to my cousin's wedding and playing flag football.  Overall, he may not be that good, but he'll probably dust us in the family bowl.  

I think the floor for Wilson is considerably lower, because there's just too many questions marks.  I highlighted the processing issues that I saw, competition issues, throw in the injury concerns, and that mobility won't translate as well as Fields.  

[win4ever]

On 4/25/2021 at 2:15 PM, BroadwayRay said:

Fields is slow reacting to the blitz and pressure in general. I can't find it now, but I saw some stats recently that showed time-to-throw against the blitz for all the draft QBs. Fields was at the bottom of the list in terms of the time it took him to throw and the number of plays that resulted in sacks. It's definitely an issue that's giving some teams pause and something he needs to work on.

I saw that stat before too, but is there context?  Like if he ran around (say like Mahomes in the SB) before he threw, where does the clock end?  Right when he should have thrown or when he threw the ball?  I'm not trying to disparage the stat, but want to know how the time is measured.  Because if he's extending plays against blitzes or rolling out, that might extend the time.  Or are there blockers for a blitz.  For example, if there is a LB blitz, and but the running back picks it up, is it a penalty to hold onto the ball?  What are the numbers on the blitz?  If say it's 3 down lineman, and 2 LBs blitz to 5 offensive lineman and a running back, how does the number take into account for blockers? Again, not saying that's a play where he would need to hold onto the ball, but how does the numbers differentiate?  

Like for their careers, both Wilson and Fields are nearly identical against the blitz according to PFF (84.7 Wilson, 82 Fields), but why is Fields slow to react to blitz and Wilson reads them?  I don't even know the basis of this stat, so I'm not touting it, but just wondering how it's classified. 

[BallinPB]

On 4/8/2021 at 7:48 AM, JiFapono said:

Then you havent read my posts.  Look at the QB thread in this forum, I was one of the first posters to bring up Wilson as a prospect.  He was catching fire, lit Bosie St. up and before 98% of this board ever heard the name Zach Wilson, I was calling him a legitimate prospect that deserves attention.  Fast forward 8 months and Ive now watched all his snaps and it's very obvious to me and many others, he's a mess.  I was also one of if not the only posters on the site, arguing against Trevor Lawrence being generational.  Why? Because I call like I see it and want the best possible QB for the Jets.  For example; I'm a Gators alum, die hard fan, I want nothing to do with Kyle Trask.  I'm all action, no hype and I tell it like I see, despite what others may think of my take.  This dates back to me fighting the whole board on Watson and Mahomes, I dont mind swimming against the current. 

Wilson is 100% hype, no different then Trubisky.  Similarly, he was a 1 year wonder, pre-draft riser that nobody new existed and then suddenly despite the analysis and the fact there where clearly  better prospects in Watson/Mahomes, Trubiskly became the QB! of that class.   It's happened many times in the past and this is just another example, which makes this all so head scratching.  You saw here, first hand when Mayfield and Darnold went before Allen and Rosen before Jackson.  GM's, the NFL, the experts, get it wrong all the time.  If you're a Jets fan you should know this all too well.

If you take Zach Wilson, you're hoping you can break him down and reconstruct him into a QB because right now, he's a yolo sandlot player.  I'm not saying it cant be done, there are some very appealing aspects to his game; his arm and sideline accuracy are impressive as hell but the rest is scary as hell.  Like terrifying but you never know, maybe he can figure it out.  All I know, is I wouldnt be willing to risk my career on it. 

I think what you find here, are people genuinely looking at prospect with an open lens whereas much of that activity on the mainboard is just nonsense. 

Can you scout for the Jets next draft??

[BallinPB]

Alot of against the grain takes from Jif and Win4ever on Wilson and it turned out to be correct so far.  

[maury77]

4 hours ago, BallinPB said:

Alot of against the grain takes from Jif and Win4ever on Wilson and it turned out to be correct so far.  

What about me???????? ? Whatever happens to QB1?

[JustInFudge]

15 hours ago, BallinPB said:

Can you scout for the Jets next draft??

You would think at this point some would have recognized and signed me but all good, I give it to @Maxman for free

15 hours ago, BallinPB said:

Alot of against the grain takes from Jif and Win4ever on Wilson and it turned out to be correct so far.  

I feel like I'm owed an apology from a lot of people for the way I was treated in this thread/and many others during this time frame.

[JustInFudge]

33 minutes ago, maury77 said:

What about me???????? ? Whatever happens to QB1?

People were so mean and hurtful, that this was a time when our relationship really blossomed.  We supported each other while everyone else wanted our heads.

[Hal N of Provo]

36 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

You would think at this point some would have recognized and me signed me but all good, I give it to @Maxman for free

I feel like I'm owed an apology from a lot of people for the way I was treated in this thread/and many others during this time frame.

I am sorry you have continued to be so wrong about future HoF QB Zach Wilson.  

[maury77]

This is going to be a fun thread after the Jets play the Bears.

[Hal N of Provo]

15 minutes ago, maury77 said:

This is going to be a fun thread after the Jets play the Bears.

[jgb]

The haters made him suck by talking about it too much. You ruined him.

[Maxman]

3 hours ago, jgb said:

The haters made him suck by talking about it too much. You ruined him.

YOU SPOKE IT INTO EXISTENCE AND WE WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU FOR IT!!!!  lol

[win4ever]

This hurts, especially when Fields seems to be rounding into form.  Fields was always going to be better at getting acclimated to the NFL, because his running ability was a major weapon.  It's an equalizer for linebackers being too aggressive, and he's finally buying in.  I do believe in Wilson, but he still hasn't solved his foot issues, relies very heavily on that hip torque.  

[JustInFudge]

Bumping this and this isnt victory lap stuff, it's honestly just showing the board how good some of our conversations are around prospects and how this board, is way more accurate then the "experts" - it's ******* wild actually.

[JustInFudge]

On 4/7/2021 at 11:07 AM, Irish Jet said:

Bookmarked.

Is it though?  lol

[JustInFudge]

On 4/8/2021 at 7:48 AM, JiF said:

Then you havent read my posts.  Look at the QB thread in this forum, I was one of the first posters to bring up Wilson as a prospect.  He was catching fire, lit Bosie St. up and before 98% of this board ever heard the name Zach Wilson, I was calling him a legitimate prospect that deserves attention.  Fast forward 8 months and Ive now watched all his snaps and it's very obvious to me and many others, he's a mess.  I was also one of if not the only posters on the site, arguing against Trevor Lawrence being generational.  Why? Because I call like I see it and want the best possible QB for the Jets.  For example; I'm a Gators alum, die hard fan, I want nothing to do with Kyle Trask.  I'm all action, no hype and I tell it like I see, despite what others may think of my take.  This dates back to me fighting the whole board on Watson and Mahomes, I dont mind swimming against the current. 

Wilson is 100% hype, no different then Trubisky.  Similarly, he was a 1 year wonder, pre-draft riser that nobody new existed and then suddenly despite the analysis and the fact there where clearly  better prospects in Watson/Mahomes, Trubiskly became the QB! of that class.   It's happened many times in the past and this is just another example, which makes this all so head scratching.  You saw here, first hand when Mayfield and Darnold went before Allen and Rosen before Jackson.  GM's, the NFL, the experts, get it wrong all the time.  If you're a Jets fan you should know this all too well.

If you take Zach Wilson, you're hoping you can break him down and reconstruct him into a QB because right now, he's a yolo sandlot player.  I'm not saying it cant be done, there are some very appealing aspects to his game; his arm and sideline accuracy are impressive as hell but the rest is scary as hell.  Like terrifying but you never know, maybe he can figure it out.  All I know, is I wouldnt be willing to risk my career on it. 

I think what you find here, are people genuinely looking at prospect with an open lens whereas much of that activity on the mainboard is just nonsense. 

 

On 4/8/2021 at 8:06 AM, QB1 said:

“Wilson is 100% hype, no different then Trubisky. “

Totally different players with totally different skill sets and totally different talent levels. What a lazy comparison. 

If it’s so obvious then you should be ringing the alarm about Douglas because he is evaluating the player as worthy of not only the #2 pick but trading our current starter for him.

@The Crusher is this dude still around?  Or does he have an alt because he owes me an apology. 

[JustInFudge]

On 4/8/2021 at 2:48 PM, Tranquilo said:

Nice deflection 

You're still around, you need to apologize.

[JustInFudge]

On 4/8/2021 at 3:22 PM, kdels62 said:

It’s the framing of what was posted. I don’t think the analysis is wrong but it started off with clear intent to prove something negative about Wilson. That’s a bad way to start analysis.  Win4ever is a great, informed poster and people discrediting his opinion are basically exposing themselves as idiots. 

I’m not sure why you’re downvoting my posts and giving me grief. I’m just having fun with the ridiculous divide between Wilson fans and Wilson doubters. 

Apology accepted.

[JustInFudge]

On 4/12/2021 at 2:01 PM, JiF said:

Fair enough but I think the issue is it creates a lot of bad habits and if they're throwing him to the wolves, I'm highly concerned.  The drifting, the bailing on pockets, the sloppy footwork, leaving his feet to throw, etc.  It all comes out because of his extreme confidence in his arm and the arrogance in his play and it's just a little nerve racking when everything is 10x the speed in the NFL.  I've steady maintained, I'm not saying Zachapono cant overcome his issues  and become a good pro.  He has some natural arm talent that is truly impressive.  I just wouldnt bet my career on it and I find him to be a terrifying pick at #2 overall.  That said, trading Sam has alleviated some of that concern because at this point, it is what it is.  I might disagree with the pick but not the logic and you just have to hope they can develop him.  I just really hope they get a bridge QB in the building because I dont like the idea of throwing him to the wolves week 1.

Ok, now I'm doing victory laps.

[The Crusher]

22 minutes ago, JiF said:

 

@The Crusher is this dude still around?  Or does he have an alt because he owes me an apology. 

It was a Nicco alt. He’s likely around, not sure who though, 

[maury77]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

Ok, now I'm doing victory laps.

This is a victory lap I never wanted to take, but I said it at the time that Douglas was ruining Saleh and his staff's chances when Douglas's first move for the new staff was picking Wilson. 

[JustInFudge]

38 minutes ago, maury77 said:

This is a victory lap I never wanted to take, but I said it at the time that Douglas was ruining Saleh and his staff's chances when Douglas's first move for the new staff was picking Wilson. 

I dont even feel good about the Wilson busting victory lap but I do feel good about bragging about how the staff boned this entire thing from jump and because of said debacle, we're in the situation we're in right now.  If you liked Zach Wilson, as a prospect, fine, whatever, you're an idiot but that's on you.  At the very least, handle it the right way and dont bring in an all rookie staff and start him right away.  Like, it was so blatantly obvious that it would backfire to us morons, how the **** did these bozo's getting paid millions not see it? 

 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

4 hours ago, JiF said:

I dont even feel good about the Wilson busting victory lap but I do feel good about bragging about how the staff boned this entire thing from jump and because of said debacle, we're in the situation we're in right now.  If you liked Zach Wilson, as a prospect, fine, whatever, you're an idiot but that's on you.  At the very least, handle it the right way and dont bring in an all rookie staff and start him right away.  Like, it was so blatantly obvious that it would backfire to us morons, how the **** did these bozo's getting paid millions not see it? 

 

Aright. Now hit me with the good prospects for this year. Go. 

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Aright. Now hit me with the good prospects for this year. Go. 

Chatting about it now in the QB 2024 thread...I dont like any of these dudes that are the top of the class.  I'm intrigued by a few mid-rounders but it's November, still time.

[Prodigal Syndicate]

On 11/3/2022 at 4:52 PM, Hal N of Provo said:

I am sorry you have continued to be so wrong about future HoF QB Zach Wilson.  

I wonder if you'll ever post again

[JustInFudge]

3 hours ago, Prodigal Syndicate said:

I wonder if you'll ever post again

Did Hal leave us?

Damn.  Just pick another team like I did and still hang out at least.

[Prodigal Syndicate]

2 minutes ago, JiF said:

Did Hal leave us?

Damn.  Just pick another team like I did and still hang out at least.

A bunch of the Wilson fanatics haven't posted in a couple weeks now.

Unrelated to his benching I'm sure.