ZW All-22 Breakdown

[NYJ37/12]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

1:30 mark

People, including me, thought that throw was off - wide and high - when in further analysis - he put the ball exactly where it should have been.

6:30 mark.

Made me feel a heck of a lot better.  I'll tell you, that throw more than anything other bothered me the most, especially because he's been hitting the longer once nicely.- but it seems Zach put it in the right place.  Very happy to see that.

This is just young guys learning to play together.

This just proves that most of us have no idea what we are looking at. Unless you are aware of the play call, route depths and reads, its impossible to know who is at fault for missed plays.

[rtnelson]

3 minutes ago, NYJ37/12 said:

This just proves that most of us have no idea what we are looking at. Unless you are aware of the play call, route depths and reads, its impossible to know who is at fault for missed plays.

Especially prior to the all-22 coming out.

[maury77]

1 hour ago, rtnelson said:

It shows that it wasn't inaccuracy that caused the drop, but miscommunication.  We don't, and will never know what the call or design actually was.  But the goal of showing that it wasn't Zach being inaccurate was achieved.

So if Wilson dirts a throw 5 yards short, its a miscommunication because he expected the receiver to run a shorter route? You can literally make that speculation about any missed pass in the NFL. 

[slimjasi]

@Irish Jet

Your "wild miss" is at 6:45. 

[T0mShane]

13 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

And for those that use feelings instead of tape to shove up their bum.

You’re mad that people are criticizing the worst statistical quarterback in the sport but tell me more about how my feelings are obscuring the data. 

[JustInFudge]

2 hours ago, rtnelson said:

I'm a big fan of this guys breakdowns, but finally we got a clear all-22 view of the Elijah Moore drop/bad pass.  Time stamping it to that play for those not interested in the rest of the video.

 

Few comments; this dude has no idea what the play call was, he has no idea what the route was supposed to be, and has no idea if Zach Wilson put the ball "where he wanted to"....he's speculating like the rest of us.  

[slimjasi]

 

 

21 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

The reason for the all-22 is to make people who think Zach played well on Sunday think Zach played well. 

Let me get this straight -

The reason for studying the game the way NFL coaches do is to make Zach look better than he really was? 

Interesting. 

[LIJetsFan]

Based on my eyeball test I've been underwhelmed by Zack's progress to date.  However, after watching/listening to this vid and reading this thread my estimation of him has gone up a bit.  I'm back in the "he has talent and looks to be improving" camp.    

[T0mShane]

4 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

 

 

Let me get this straight -

The reason for studying the game the way NFL coaches do is to make Zach look better than he really was? 

Interesting. 

That is not an NFL coach studying that tape. It is, in fact, a random young Jets fan.

[rtnelson]

9 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

You’re mad that people are criticizing the worst statistical quarterback in the sport but tell me more about how my feelings are obscuring the data. 

Taking out his first 3 starts his statistics have drastically improved.  2 wins 2 losses 4TD 4INT 60% completions in his last 4 starts.  Not great, but certainly not statistically the worst QB in the sport over that span.

You had said earlier in this thread how you don't need all-22 to tell you what your feelings already told you.  Thus, shoving it up your bum.

[slimjasi]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

That is not an NFL coach studying that tape. It is, in fact, a random young Jets fan.

*sigh*

Not what I said. I'm saying that we are viewing the game the same way that NFL coaches do. If Wilson looks decent on the all-22 (hint: he does), that is a good thing. 

I'm fascinated by why you guys are so dug into this "Wilson is terrible" narrative. It's really been over the top on here. 

 

[Hal N of Provo]

2 hours ago, rtnelson said:

I'm a big fan of this guys breakdowns, but finally we got a clear all-22 view of the Elijah Moore drop/bad pass.  Time stamping it to that play for those not interested in the rest of the video.

 

They say the OLine takes 8 weeks or so to learn the new scheme.   They look good in protection on most plays.  

[doitny]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

1:30 mark

People, including me, thought that throw was off - wide and high - when in further analysis - he put the ball exactly where it should have been.

6:30 mark.

Made me feel a heck of a lot better.  I'll tell you, that throw more than anything other bothered me the most, especially because he's been hitting the longer once nicely.- but it seems Zach put it in the right place.  Very happy to see that.

This is just young guys learning to play together.

yeah that first play was a nice throw. but i dont like the play. 2 WRs in the same area vs 4 defenders. the 2 TEs stay to block and the RB comes out to the flat but Fant who does such a good job on his guy pushes him so far to the flat he was too close to the RB to make him an option. 

i agree with the 6:30 one. looks like a bit of miscommunication with Moore.

i love these all 22s

[T0mShane]

7 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

*sigh*

Not what I said. I'm saying that we are viewing the game the same way that NFL coaches do. If Wilson looks decent on the all-22 (hint: he does), that is a good thing. 

I'm fascinated by why you guys are so dug into this "Wilson is terrible" narrative. It's really been over the top on here. 

 

I’m not dug in on “Wilson is terrible.” I said that Wilson looked better this week in the first half of the Eagles game but looked terrible in the second half. “You guys” are upset that people are pointing out that he sucked in the second half. 

[slimjasi]

Just now, T0mShane said:

I’m not dug in on “Wilson is terrible.” I said that Wilson looked better this week in the first half of the Eagles game but looked terrible in the second half. “You guys” are upset that people are pointing out that he sucked in the second half. 

Ok, you aren't dug in at all. 

Carry on. 

[T0mShane]

13 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

Taking out his first 3 starts his statistics have drastically improved.  2 wins 2 losses 4TD 4INT 60% completions in his last 4 starts. 

Those are interesting and encouraging stats, indeed. 

[rtnelson]

4 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

*sigh*

Not what I said. I'm saying that we are viewing the game the same way that NFL coaches do. If Wilson looks decent on the all-22 (hint: he does), that is a good thing. 

I'm fascinated by why you guys are so dug into this "Wilson is terrible" narrative. It's really been over the top on here. 

 

I get where they're coming from.  I really do.  For long stretches this season he has looked downright terrible.

I honestly think many of them didn't want to draft him, felt confident in their opinions through most of the year, and will be unwilling to ever change their mind.  In the end it's a win win for them.

If Zach does become great and a franchise player, it means the Jets are probably winning.  So as a fan they win.

If Zach fizzles out and eventually gets the boot, they can have their silver lining that they "called it from the start".

Why you wouldn't use the chance to feel a bit of optimism when he finally looks like a competent QB is beyond me.  But I guess it's just not in my nature to be so hung up on the negative things.

However I've never seen a fan base so willing to hate on a seemingly good kid who is obviously working hard, and so unwilling to even acknowledge any improvement.

[T0mShane]

14 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

You had said earlier in this thread how you don't need all-22 to tell you what your feelings already told you.  Thus, shoving it up your bum.

I most certainly did not say that. 

[Irish Jet]

25 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

@Irish Jet

Your "wild miss" is at 6:45. 

 

1 hour ago, Irish Jet said:

Put it on mute and it really does highlight what a terrible throw it was. Moore did well to get a hand on it. 

 

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, rtnelson said:

so unwilling to even acknowledge any improvement.

Who isn’t acknowledging this improvement?

[Irish Jet]

15 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

Taking out his first 3 starts his statistics have drastically improved.  2 wins 2 losses 4TD 4INT 60% completions in his last 4 starts.  Not great, but certainly not statistically the worst QB in the sport over that span.

In other words if we pretend that the worst QB performance in the league this season didn't happen, ignore the garbage time context for the stats vs Atlanta and then carry the four we can feel much better about ourselves. 

And if it's just recent displays you're prioritising then It's pretty convenient that you didn't start with week 5. 

[Irish Jet]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Who isn’t acknowledging this improvement?

Me.

[rtnelson]

7 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I’m not dug in on “Wilson is terrible.” I said that Wilson looked better this week in the first half of the Eagles game but looked terrible in the second half. “You guys” are upset that people are pointing out that he sucked in the second half. 

He had a great first half, but the second half wasn't nearly as bad as people think.  Obviously not perfect, but there are a lot of good decisions and nice throws peppered all over the second half tape.  I would not call his play terrible, or say he sucked.

[rtnelson]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

I like quarterbacks that don’t require Zapruder films to make me feel better about them. 

You pretty much did mate.

[T0mShane]

3 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

Me.

I think by “acknowledging” they mean “this is exactly like Josh Allen’s career arc”

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, rtnelson said:

He had a great first half, but the second half wasn't nearly as bad as people think.  Obviously not perfect, but there are a lot of good decisions and nice throws peppered all over the second half tape.  I would not call his play terrible, or say he sucked.

No, he sucked 

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

You pretty much did mate.

He was 11 for 24 with an INT in the second half. If you want me to watch a video based on magical thinking about how he could have been 13/24 with a TD and a pick if his receivers did something else, I’m all good with that, thanks. 

[Irish Jet]

2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I think by “acknowledging” they mean “this is exactly like Josh Allen’s career arc”

Indeed.  Josh Allen is actually known as the "glitch in the matrix" precisely because his path is most likely way for any NFL QB. 

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, maury77 said:

The whole problem with Luke Grant's analysis is that he assumes that the route calls for Moore to keep running towards the sideline. Why is one assuming that Moore ran the route wrong? Because it is man coverage Moore's route automatically calls for him to keep running towards the sideline? That's a lot of assumption on Grant's part. 

The whole video is pile of assumptions and he's kind of clueless, the leaps he's making here without saying the truth: "I have no idea what the play call is but...", it would go along way to earning credibility.  He just seems full of sh*t. 

For example.

The first play he examines around the minute mark, is almost the exact same play as the infamous Moore drop but in the first 1, the receiver/TE stays into protect the extra rusher and in the later one, he delays his release since there is nobody to block.  That said, the formation is the same and the route combo to the left side in the same.  On the first play, Moore sits in the spot and Zach hits him.  On the second play, Moore does the same thing, this time Zach throws it to the sideline.  Granted the coverage was different but the call looked the same.  As you said, there is no rule that requires Moore to keep running to the sideline.  You can beat man with a curl/comeback.  Conceptually, the spacing would have been very weird to have Moore running to the sideline with a go route on the outside.

 

 

 

 

 

[Columbia Jet Fan]

I heard on a podcast that this game from ZW was like a Rorschach test. What you take away from this game says more about you and your pre-conceived thoughts on ZW than it does his performance. 

He played a fine game. If he was a veteran you wouldn't even think twice of it - it was an average game. Since he is a rookie under the microscope people will use any play to show he is either a bust or the second coming depending on your perspective. 

If you're a hater of ZW you can point to several errant throws and the fact that he didn't do anything to wow you. 

If you're a ZW supporter you'll point to progress in his decision making, ability to play within structure, and time to throw. 

Bottom line is if he did this for 17 games this season all of us would be going into next season confident we got our guy. However, he has shown way more bad than good this year, so looking at what is arguably his best game of the year and saying this is ZW now is probably unreasonably optimistic. He still has five games, and my hope is that he continues to build off of these last two weeks where he has shown a better ability to play within structure. If he can sprinkle in a few more hero plays over the next five weeks while limiting the dumb ones, I'l go into next year reasonably confident. 

 

[rtnelson]

7 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

In other words if we pretend that the worst QB performance in the league this season didn't happen, ignore the garbage time context for the stats vs Atlanta and then carry the four we can feel much better about ourselves. 

And if it's just recent displays you're prioritising then It's pretty convenient that you didn't start with week 5. 

I can hold two things in my head at once.  He was awful to start the year, but past his third start his stats aren't as god awful as people think.

The offense as a whole looks completely different and the OL can actually block now.  So while some might take pleasure in looking at the stats as a whole thinking that proves something about how he played this past week, I personally think that lumping recent weeks together makes sense.

Oh, and those are his stats in his last 5 starts, so... I didn't skip anything.

He hasn't had a multiple INT game since the Broncos in week 3.  Looking beyond that, his numbers look like rookie numbers.

[rtnelson]

7 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

He was 11 for 24 with an INT in the second half. If you want me to watch a video based on magical thinking about how he could have been 13/24 with a TD and a pick if his receivers did something else, I’m all good with that, thanks. 

Just go watch the "every throw" film again.  There were plenty of good throws and good decisions in the second half.  If you just want to look at stats, that's well and good.  I just find that strange because everyone in the business would tell you stats don't tell the whole story.

[slimjasi]

Just now, rtnelson said:

I get where they're coming from.  I really do.  For long stretches this season he has looked downright terrible.

Right. But this is my problem. 

When you have a guy who has played 7 complete NFL games, the sample sizes are truly miniscule. So, when you see some sudden improvement, that is potentially meaningful and a big deal. People seem incapable of letting go of narratives that were largely developed over his first 3-4 games. 

If you think about Wilson, he played 5 games, was bad in 3 of them, got hurt, and has played in two games since. In his first 3 career NFL games, he threw 7 interceptions. He has thrown a total of 4 in his four complete starts since then. His completion percentage and QB ratings are also trending in the right direction. (His two worst ratings of the year were in weeks 2 and 3).

Rookie QBs get better. Labeling him as the worst QB in the sport after 3-4 games is just total loony tunes and completely unfair. 

[Darnold's Forehead]

4 minutes ago, rtnelson said:

I get where they're coming from.  I really do.  For long stretches this season he has looked downright terrible.

I honestly think many of them didn't want to draft him, felt confident in their opinions through most of the year, and will be unwilling to ever change their mind.  In the end it's a win win for them.

If Zach does become great and a franchise player, it means the Jets are probably winning.  So as a fan they win.

If Zach fizzles out and eventually gets the boot, they can have their silver lining that they "called it from the start".

Why you wouldn't use the chance to feel a bit of optimism when he finally looks like a competent QB is beyond me.  But I guess it's just not in my nature to be so hung up on the negative things.

However I've never seen a fan base so willing to hate on a seemingly good kid who is obviously working hard, and so unwilling to even acknowledge any improvement.

I don’t think anyone, I certainly don’t, hates Wilson.  I was fine with the pick. I will root for and hope he improves until the day he’s no longer playing (here).  The only thing I care about is the Jets winning and being successful.  That is why I point out our starting QB’s flaws, which there have been a lot of up to this point.

People screamed about LaFluer.  People screamed about the OL.  People are screaming about Saleh, Ulbrich, JD and the defense.  People are allowed to scream about Wilson, and there are a number of people around here who just cannot handle that.  It is all justified.  The team is 3-9 and has been historically bad in multiple facets multiple times this year.

QBs have and develop tendencies.  Sure they learn to fix them and grow out of them, but like Darnold and SO many other QBs who come into the league, sometimes they don’t.  Wilson looks promising, but it’s foolish and disingenuous to ignore his issues when he has yet to consistently show otherwise in the few games he’s played.  I take 1 red pill with breakfast each morning.

[slimjasi]

28 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

 

 

That's great! Don't listen to anyone about anything! You already KNOW Wilson is terrible!