NY Jets trade Elijah Moore to the Cleveland Browns: MERGED

[JohnnyLV]

11 hours ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

He's worse than Schittenheimer because he couldn't make Zach Wilson and Joe Flacco look good?

Lol, no. He's worse because he was completely clueless at every aspect of being an OC. Every aspect.

[Jetsfan80]

7 hours ago, JohnnyLV said:

Lol, no. He's worse because he was completely clueless at every aspect of being an OC. Every aspect.

And yet…

 

16 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Managed to have the offense look competent when any QB not named Zach Wilson was under center?

^^^ Empirically verifiable statement.  

[Joe W. Namath]

Mike Lafleur is one of the brighest, young offensive minds in the league and will be a great coach in this league.  He is just a little immature and was not ready to run everything on his own.

McVay will be a great mentor for him.

[slats]

17 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Managed to have the offense look competent when any QB not named Zach Wilson was under center?

Zach had a passer rating of 72.8 last year, compared to Flacco (75.2) and White (75.7). The Jets were 5-4 when Zach started, 1-3 when either Flacco or White started. Everything was bad on offense. Pretty hard to single out Wilson, unless it’s just what you do. His record kinda stands out there. 

[Hal N of Provo]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And yet…

 

^^^ Empirically verifiable statement.  

False.   They could not score with any QB on the field.  Bad OC.  

[Hal N of Provo]

40 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Mike Lafleur is one of the brighest, young offensive minds in the league and will be a great coach in this league.  He is just a little immature and was not ready to run everything on his own.

McVay will be a great mentor for him.

False.   MiLF was in miles over his head and McVay has an attention to detail. MiLF will need to learn that or he will continue to suck forever.  
 

The fact MiLF was hired is a stain in JD and RS.   The fact they let MiLF assemble such an inexperienced staff is stain 2.   The fact they gave him a 2nd season is stain 3.  

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, slats said:

Zach had a passer rating of 72.8 last year, compared to Flacco (75.2) and White (75.7). The Jets were 5-4 when Zach started, 1-3 when either Flacco or White started. Everything was bad on offense. Pretty hard to single out Wilson, unless it’s just what you do. His record kinda stands out there. 

1) So we’re just ignoring the 2021 stats in this equation?  MLF was OC then, too.

2) Joe Flacco looked half dead in most of his outings and Mike White was a former 5th round pick and journeyman.  MLF also got decent productivity out of Josh Johnson.  I’d say arguing that those guys having a QB rating north of 75 is actually proving my point that MLF wasn’t a big problem here.  He wasn’t handed competent QBs yet got some decent production out of them anyways.  
 

Fans who blame MLF for most of Zach’s problems are wearing blinders.  That’s my point here.  None of those guys were supposed to challenge a # 2 overall pick, as the QB room behind Wilson was left barren almost by design.  Yet they outperformed him all the same and the offense performed better (and even competently at times).  

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, Hal N of Provo said:

False.   They could not score with any QB on the field.  Bad OC.  

* Other than the times they scored 31 against CLE and Chicago last year and 34 and 30 against Cincy and Indy in 2021 without Zach, of course.  

Four of the team’s five 30+ point games from 2021-22 came without Zach under center despite Zach getting by far the most starts (22 out of 34) of the group of QBs in that span.  

I’m not even arguing that MLF was particularly good here.  Only that @JohnnyLV’s claim that MLF was Zach’s biggest problem (or even a significant one) is pretty severely flawed.  

It isn’t exactly a new concept to be debunked, either:  OCs, despite JI/JN complaints, couldn’t be reasonably blamed for the majority of the struggles of the likes of Pennington, Sanchez or Darnold over 2 decades, either.  

[Barry McCockinner]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

* Other than the times they scored 31 against CLE and Chicago last year and 34 and 30 against Cincy and Indy in 2021 without Zach, of course.  

Four of the team’s five 30+ point games cane without Zach under center despite Zach getting by far the most starts of the group of QBs in that span.  

that's because MLF only called the good plays for the other QBs.

[Jetsfan80]

6 hours ago, slats said:

Zach had a passer rating of 72.8 last year, compared to Flacco (75.2) and White (75.7). The Jets were 5-4 when Zach started, 1-3 when either Flacco or White started. Everything was bad on offense. Pretty hard to single out Wilson, unless it’s just what you do. His record kinda stands out there. 

 

5 hours ago, Hal N of Provo said:

False.   MiLF was in miles over his head and McVay has an attention to detail. MiLF will need to learn that or he will continue to suck forever.  
 

The fact MiLF was hired is a stain in JD and RS.   The fact they let MiLF assemble such an inexperienced staff is stain 2.   The fact they gave him a 2nd season is stain 3.  

 

3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

1) So we’re just ignoring the 2021 stats in this equation?  MLF was OC then, too.

2) Joe Flacco looked half dead in most of his outings and Mike White was a former 5th round pick and journeyman.  MLF also got decent productivity out of Josh Johnson.  I’d say arguing that those guys having a QB rating north of 75 is actually proving my point that MLF wasn’t a big problem here.  He wasn’t handed competent QBs yet got some decent production out of them anyways.  
 

Fans who blame MLF for most of Zach’s problems are wearing blinders.  That’s my point here.  None of those guys were supposed to challenge a # 2 overall pick, as the QB room behind Wilson was left barren almost by design.  Yet they outperformed him all the same and the offense performed better (and even competently at times).  

3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

* Other than the times they scored 31 against CLE and Chicago last year and 34 and 30 against Cincy and Indy in 2021 without Zach, of course.  

Four of the team’s five 30+ point games from 2021-22 came without Zach under center despite Zach getting by far the most starts (22 out of 34) of the group of QBs in that span.  

I’m not even arguing that MLF was particularly good here.  Only that @JohnnyLV’s claim that MLF was Zach’s biggest problem (or even a significant one) is pretty severely flawed.  

It isn’t exactly a new concept to be debunked, either:  OCs, despite JI/JN complaints, couldn’t be reasonably blamed for the majority of the struggles of the likes of Pennington, Sanchez or Darnold over 2 decades, either.  

 

2021-22 Jets:  A more complete look at the #'s when comparing across the QBs:

 

Non-Zach QBs (12 starts)

• Record:  4-8 (.333)
• PPG:  18.9
• Passing Yards/Game:  278.5
• Completion %:  59.9
• TD %:  2.2
• INT %:  2.2
• Sack %:  3.8
• On Target %:  67.5
• Bad Throw %:  19.0

 

Zach Wilson (22 starts)

• Record:  8-14 (.363)
• PPG:  17.2
• Passing Yards/Game:  182.8
• Completion %:  55.2
• TD %:  2.4
• INT %:  2.9
• Sack %:  9.7
• On Target %:  64.8
• Bad Throw %:  22.9

 

So there you have it.  Zach had the non-Zach QBs beat in only Winning % and TD %.

In every other category that matters, the non-Zachs had the edge, including a substantial edge in Yards/Game, Completion % and Sack %. 

The Yards/Game gap demonstrates a big reason why Zach was so inferior:  He wasn't asked to do much in most of his starts.  You expect some of that out of a young QB, but not this much of a gap.  Clearly, MLF trusted the veteran QBs to do their job whereas Zach couldn't be trusted.  And for good reason.

And again:  Given that the Jets kept the depth chart behind Zach weak almost by design (so they could hand him undeserved QB1 duties from the jump, much like they've done for basically every young QB here under Woody Johnson), there shouldn't have even been a gap at all.  Zach should have been better than this crew of journeymen.  Maybe even significantly so.  

[bicketybam]

The MLF non-Wilson led offense was a juggernaut, said no one ever. They did kick a lot of FG's against the Vikings though.

[Dunnie]

Hey... At least it's only a couple more days before our future franchise QB takes to the field to rebuild his confidence and improve his skillet.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, bicketybam said:

The MLF non-Wilson led offense was a juggernaut, said no one ever. They did kick a lot of FG's against the Vikings though.
 

No one expected it to be a juggernaut with journeymen backups.  The QB depth chart behind Zach was weak by design.  

The idea that 3 different backups and the offenses they led performed competently despite their general suckitude as QBs?  Verifiably accurate.  

And what’s more:  The relative “highs” were higher.  Again:  4 of the 12 non-Zach starts resulted in 30+ points of offense, whereas only 1 of Zach’s 22 starts reached that figure.  

[Jetsfan80]

12 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

Hey... At least it's only a couple more days before our future franchise QB takes to the field to rebuild his confidence and improve his skillet.

 

 

@JTJet @pointman

[Hal N of Provo]

5 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

 

2021-22 Jets:  A more complete look at the #'s when comparing across the QBs:

 

Non-Zach QBs (12 starts)

• Record:  4-8 (.333)
• PPG:  18.9
• Passing Yards/Game:  278.5
• Completion %:  59.9
• TD %:  2.2
• INT %:  2.2
• Sack %:  3.8
• On Target %:  67.5
• Bad Throw %:  19.0

 

Zach Wilson (22 starts)

• Record:  8-14 (.363)
• PPG:  17.2
• Passing Yards/Game:  182.8
• Completion %:  55.2
• TD %:  2.4
• INT %:  2.9
• Sack %:  9.7
• On Target %:  64.8
• Bad Throw %:  22.9

 

So there you have it.  Zach had the non-Zach QBs beat in only Winning % and TD %.

In every other category that matters, the non-Zachs had the edge, including a substantial edge in Yards/Game, Completion % and Sack %. 

The Yards/Game gap demonstrates a big reason why Zach was so inferior:  He wasn't asked to do much in most of his starts.  You expect some of that out of a young QB, but not this much of a gap.  Clearly, MLF trusted the veteran QBs to do their job whereas Zach couldn't be trusted.  And for good reason.

And again:  Given that the Jets kept the depth chart behind Zach weak almost by design (so they could hand him undeserved QB1 duties from the jump, much like they've done for basically every young QB here under Woody Johnson), there shouldn't have even been a gap at all.  Zach should have been better than this crew of journeymen.  Maybe even significantly so.  

Thanks for doing all the legwork to prove MiLF sucked similarly with all QBs and he sucked at his job.  

[Dunnie]

Thanks for doing all the legwork to prove MiLF sucked similarly with all QBs and he sucked at his job.  

Zach was a rookie two years ago ... Losing record is always expected of rookies.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[Dunnie]

 
http://content.invisioncic.com/y326398/monthly_2023_07/IMG_7022.jpeg.970b884bc6ef7cbf815e91d3e76db4ed.jpeg
 
[mention=33560]JTJet[/mention] [mention=11232]pointman[/mention]

Streveler .. the only guy alive that throws a more ugly football than Tebow.

I like his moxie though.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[jgb]

19 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

that's because MLF only called the good plays for the other QBs.

 

11 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

No one expected it to be a juggernaut with journeymen backups.  The QB depth chart behind Zach was weak by design.  

The idea that 3 different backups and the offenses they led performed competently despite their general suckitude as QBs?  Verifiably accurate.  

And what’s more:  The relative “highs” were higher.  Again:  4 of the 12 non-Zach starts resulted in 30+ points of offense, whereas only 1 of Zach’s 22 starts reached that figure.  

Didn’t Jets lead the league in passing 3 weeks into last season? I wonder what happened to change that…

[jgb]

11 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

No one expected it to be a juggernaut with journeymen backups.  The QB depth chart behind Zach was weak by design.  

The idea that 3 different backups and the offenses they led performed competently despite their general suckitude as QBs?  Verifiably accurate.  

And what’s more:  The relative “highs” were higher.  Again:  4 of the 12 non-Zach starts resulted in 30+ points of offense, whereas only 1 of Zach’s 22 starts reached that figure.  
 

Kind of how it makes no sense for basketball fans to chant “OVER-RATED!” when their team beats a higher-ranked team — shouldn’t Zachians pump up these QBs that performed equal/better than Zach?

Instead, they felt compelled to kill with fire anything that threatened Zach getting back on the field.

[Jetsfan80]

10 hours ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Thanks for doing all the legwork to prove MiLF sucked similarly with all QBs and he sucked at his job.  

Josh Johnson (16 teams in 13 years) >>> Zach Wilson and this is your slam dunk moment???

[jgb]

27 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Josh Johnson (16 teams in 13 years) >>> Zach Wilson and this is your slam dunk moment???

“Mike White has been through 3 training camps!!!”

[Jetsfan80]

10 hours ago, Dunnie said:

Zach was a rookie two years ago ... Losing record is always expected of rookies.

These QBs:

• Ben Roethlisberger (13 wins - 2004)
• Dak Prescott (13 - 2016)
• Andrew Luck (11 - 2012)
• Joe Flacco (11 - 2008)
• Matt Ryan (11 - 2008)
• Lamar Jackson (10 - 2018)
• Mac Jones (10 - 2021)
• Kyle Orton (10 - 2005)
• Andy Dalton (9 - 2011)
• RG3 (9 - 2012)
• Chase Daniel (9 - 2010)

And our own Mark Sanchez (9 - 2009)...

...All say hello.

[greenwichjetfan]

On 7/15/2023 at 11:58 AM, JohnnyLV said:

MLF is the worst OC the Jets have ever had

I would be interested in hearing objective things he did well.

It's mind blowing how people can watch the same thing and have such polar opposite reactions. 

In my mind, MLF is the best OC the Jets have had since I became an educated sometime around '03. He ran a modern offense for the first time ever here, brought fresh new ideas that centered around making the QB's life easier, and came up with gameplans to attack opponent weaknesses. You can see how well it worked on every QB that took snaps under center other than Zach Wilson while he was here.

To me, objectively looking at the situation means that if 4 QBs are able to have success under an OC while one is not, then the one QB would be the outlier who is causing failure; not the OC. 

[greenwichjetfan]

God's work @Jetsfan80. I was about to go down the rabbit hole and pull stats and context but I see you've already done it. I'm at a loss for some of the takes that are still persisting about LaFleur and Zach. One got let go because of the other and immediately got a job offer from one of the brightest minds in all of football. The other got demoted and in all probability never be a starter for two consecutive seasons ever again; and for good reason.

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

These QBs:

• Ben Roethlisberger (13 wins - 2004)
• Dak Prescott (13 - 2016)
• Andrew Luck (11 - 2012)
• Joe Flacco (11 - 2008)
• Matt Ryan (11 - 2008)
• Lamar Jackson (10 - 2018)
• Mac Jones (10 - 2021)
• Kyle Orton (10 - 2005)
• Andy Dalton (9 - 2011)
• RG3 (9 - 2012)
• Chase Daniel (9 - 2010)

And our own Mark Sanchez (9 - 2009)...

...All say hello.

And even if they have a losing record, rookie (and certainly 2nd year) QBs that have FQB potential show something that makes you think “this guy might be worth building around” — like Peyton Manning and Justin Herbert, as just the two examples that popped into my head. Even Sanchez saved his relative best for last in the playoffs. Gave some hope that he could potentially be the guy. The number of rookie QBs that look absolutely lost on a football field and become FQBs is like single digits, being generous. 

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

God's work @Jetsfan80. I was about to go down the rabbit hole and pull stats and context but I see you've already done it. I'm at a loss for some of the takes that are still persisting about LaFleur and Zach. One got let go because of the other and immediately got a job offer from one of the brightest minds in all of football. The other got demoted and in all probability never be a starter for two consecutive seasons ever again; and for good reason.

Don’t think people want to accept just how awful Zach was. He was historically bad. Looked like he never played organized football before.

[Jetsfan80]

9 minutes ago, jgb said:

Don’t think people want to accept just how awful Zach was. He was historically bad. Looked like he never played organized football before.

Considering his biggest stage was playing in the Mountain West in a COVID year.....he hadn't. 

Facing Coastal Carolina near Myrtle Beach ain't exactly like facing a Belichick defense in New England. 

Probably shouldn't draft guys like that in the first place.  But what do I know.

[Joe W. Namath]

The trade of Elijah moore has turned into a bash Zach thread.  Jet fans...................................

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

The trade of Elijah moore has turned into a bash Zach thread.  Jet fans...................................

I’ll say something nice about Zach just for you. If he didn’t suck we wouldn’t have Aaron Rodgers.

[jgb]

10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Considering his biggest stage was playing in the Mountain West in a COVID year.....he hadn't. 

Facing Coastal Carolina near Myrtle Beach ain't exactly like facing a Belichick defense in New England. 

Probably shouldn't draft guys like that in the first place.  But what do I know.

QB needs a baseline level of talent to play in this league but after that point, the emotional-psychological makeup is vastly more important.

[FTL Jet Fan]

So much for people giving a sh*t about EM. We have found another area to argue about Wilson.

[Joe W. Namath]

How much space Zach Wilson occupies in the mind of jet fans is hysterical.  He owns you.

[jgb]

19 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

How much space Zach Wilson occupies in the mind of jet fans is hysterical.  He owns you.

Unfortunately the Jets own him for 2 more years.

[Jetsfan80]

46 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

How much space Zach Wilson occupies in the mind of jet fans is hysterical.  He owns you.

Given that we're one injury away from him potentially destroying our chances at winning the division, it will remain a topic of conversation for the next year or 2.

If we had added a veteran QB2 into the mix to provide a buffer I wouldn't bother nearly as much in talking about our QB3.  But alas....

[Joe W. Namath]

17 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Given that we're one injury away from him potentially destroying our chances at winning the division, it will remain a topic of conversation for the next year or 2.

If we had added a veteran QB2 into the mix to provide a buffer I wouldn't bother nearly as much in talking about our QB3.  But alas....

Or we could be one injury away from him stepping up and winning some games for us.

We dont know.  Lets see how he looks in the preseason before we commit to he sucks or he could be good.  

We know he has sucked in the past.  But he is young and has talent.  Players like that can improve.  If we get through a few preseason games and he hasnt improved, joe will bring in a vet as the backup.

There is 0 reason to keep bashing the kid.  Root for him this preseason and if not he will be replaced.