Scouts take on Brock Bowers - merged

[Lupz27]

13 hours ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Ok let’s get a talent line Bowers in the fifth round. Can we take a qb at 199 while we’re shoppin 

Kittle and Purdy say hello!

[derp]

39 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I think he’s saying that fast guys are fast, but everyone reaches peak speed after the first twenty yards. The second twenty is known as the flying twenty. Lamar, Chris Johnson, and Garrett are fast through every stage of the 40. Most guys are not. 

Also Garrett Wilson had a faster flying 20 than Jones, Lamar Jackson has not run a pre-draft 40 to compare (unless we’re talking about the former Nebraska cornerback, which I doubt), and we’ve got calculations assuming people run the 40 starting at maximum speed instead of at a standstill.

[Lupz27]

13 hours ago, Dcat said:

who is knocking him as a prospect?  The question is: Is Bowers the correct prospect for the NY Jets?  That's the arg... not whether Bowers is a good prospect. 

You keep changing the debate to demonstrating that Bowers is good. Nobody disagrees.  Instead of repeatedly trying to demonstrate that Bowers was successful at Ga, how about why he would be better for us than any other alternative?  Sheesh.  You like to change the context. You and the Bowers proponents can be exhausting.  Yeah he's good.  SHould the Jets pick him given their present situation?  My opinion: No.

This

If the Jets are sitting at say 20th I’m salivating at Bowers falling to them.

[Bobby816]

8 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Kittle and Purdy say hello!

By that logic we shouldn’t draft a QB ever before the 6th bc the GOAT in Brady was drafted there.

 

This positional value thing is so overrated. The guys who don’t want Bowers want a WR when Nacua was a top 10 rookie WR in the mid rounds last year for crying out loud 

[Lupz27]

5 hours ago, Bobby816 said:

I do find it funny that the guys who don’t want Bowers pretty much criticize the position more so than anything. That’s kind of what I’m gathering.

 

Yet did we not draft Q 3rd overall when DTs don’t make too much of an impact bc he was BPA? I wasn’t on this board then to know peoples thoughts on that pick.

Wait what DT’s don’t make an impact?

You just start watching football yesterday bro?

[Gastineau Lives]

31 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Kittle and Purdy say hello!

Please furnish a list of fifth and sixth rounders that would say hello but don’t have the time to take out of their ups routes?

[Lupz27]

1 minute ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Please furnish a list of fifth and sixth rounders that would say hello but don’t have the time to take out of their ups routes?

Well if you go back I was pounding the table for Kittle he went in the 5th round STUPIDLY!

 

[Beerfish]

9 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Well if you go back I was pounding the table for Kittle he went in the 5th round STUPIDLY!

 

4-141 Chad Hansen - New York Jets

5-146 George Kittle - San Francisco 49ers

 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

On 4/17/2024 at 6:14 AM, Rich Thornburgh said:

I just don’t get the hype about bowers.  The athletes in the nfl are bigger, stronger and faster he’s not going to routinely run them over like he did these college players 

There’s def a case to be made for him based on his college profile and analytics.

But for some reason, it just feels like if the Jets draft him, for whatever reason, it won’t work out.

He’s not gonna be able to outrun dudes in the NFL like that.

He’ll have to develop a lot as a route runner into more of an actual WR.

[Bobby816]

5 hours ago, Lupz27 said:

Wait what DT’s don’t make an impact?

You just start watching football yesterday bro?

My point is DT isn’t a premium position. And the reason a lot don’t want Bowers is bc they say TE isn’t a premium position. Every position makes an impact, especially if you have an elite player there.

[Bobby816]

I want either of them. And I go back and for the on who I want more…

 

But I do have to ask why Bowers is getting crapped on by some. When it’s not exactly like Odunze is this totally different type weapon. Odunze ran 4.47 likely just slightly better than what I’d imagine Bowers would run (my guess would be around 4.55) and Bowers is bigger than Odunze and is better with the ball in his hands.

[Jetkwondo]

27 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

I want either of them. And I go back and for the on who I want more…

 

But I do have to ask why Bowers is getting crapped on by some. When it’s not exactly like Odunze is this totally different type weapon. Odunze ran 4.47 likely just slightly better than what I’d imagine Bowers would run (my guess would be around 4.55) and Bowers is bigger than Odunze and is better with the ball in his hands.

Guessing gets GM's fired

[slats]

3 hours ago, Bobby816 said:

My point is DT isn’t a premium position. And the reason a lot don’t want Bowers is bc they say TE isn’t a premium position. Every position makes an impact, especially if you have an elite player there.

DT is 100% a premium position in the NFL. Guys like Aaron Donald, Chris Jones, or how about Quinnen Williams? These are guys who literally change the outcomes of games. That’s why the top DTs make over $30M/year while the top TE makes $17M (and doesn’t deserve it). 16 DTs make more money than the top TE. 34 DTs make over $10M compared to 12 TEs. It’s not even remotely close. 
 
The problem with Bowers isn’t just that he’s a TE, but that he’s an undersized TE who may not be able to make the transition to to play TE in the NFL due to his size. He’s an exciting prospect, but one without a position in the NFL. Whether he’s a TE, H-back, or slot WR, none of those positions is worth a top ten pick. There just aren’t a lot of comps for 6’3”-235lb dudes having a ton of success in this league. I get that he’s faster/more agile than most, but he’s probably not faster or more agile than the WR he’d most likely be replacing on the field. He’s getting compared to Kittle but he’s much closer in size to Jusczcyk. The team that drafts him is going to have to rework their offense to include this sliding H-back in there instead of a slot receiver. In the Jets case, that’s Bowers instead of Gipson/Lazard. For all the love and accolades Bowers gets, I don’t think he’s a clear upgrade here at all. Now if you’re replacing Gipson/Lazard on the field with either Nabers or Odunze, you’ve clearly upgraded and, again, it’s not even close. And like DT, WR is a premium position. And the Jets are thin there. 
 
Throw in Bowers’ lingering hamstring after adding some weight in a failed attempt to appear TE sized, and that’s another concern. This guy is such a risky pick. It’s crazy to me that you guys can’t see that. 

[Augustiniak]

5 minutes ago, slats said:

DT is 100% a premium position in the NFL. Guys like Aaron Donald, Chris Jones, or how about Quinnen Williams? These are guys who literally change the outcomes of games. That’s why the top DTs make over $30M/year while the top TE makes $17M (and doesn’t deserve it). 16 DTs make more money than the top TE. 34 DTs make over $10M compared to 12 TEs. It’s not even remotely close. 
 
The problem with Bowers isn’t just that he’s a TE, but that he’s an undersized TE who may not be able to make the transition to to play TE in the NFL due to his size. He’s an exciting prospect, but one without a position in the NFL. Whether he’s a TE, H-back, or slot WR, none of those positions is worth a top ten pick. There just aren’t a lot of comps for 6’3”-235lb dudes having a ton of success in this league. I get that he’s faster/more agile than most, but he’s probably not faster or more agile than the WR he’d most likely be replacing on the field. He’s getting compared to Kittle but he’s much closer in size to Jusczcyk. The team that drafts him is going to have to rework their offense to include this sliding H-back in there instead of a slot receiver. In the Jets case, that’s Bowers instead of Gipson/Lazard. For all the love and accolades Bowers gets, I don’t think he’s a clear upgrade here at all. Now if you’re replacing Gipson/Lazard on the field with either Nabers or Odunze, you’ve clearly upgraded and, again, it’s not even close. And like DT, WR is a premium position. And the Jets are thin there. 
 
Throw in Bowers’ lingering hamstring after adding some weight in a failed attempt to appear TE sized, and that’s another concern. This guy is such a risky pick. It’s crazy to me that you guys can’t see that. 

Jd has only taken premium positions in round 1 and for those who say avt is a guard, he may have been thought of as a Rt when he was drafted.  Plus when healthy he was trending as an elite guard.  But enough.  I don’t see the jets taking bowers.  I can sooner see jd trading back and then taking BTJ and adding a home run threat.

[Bobby816]

3 minutes ago, slats said:

DT is 100% a premium position in the NFL. Guys like Aaron Donald, Chris Jones, or how about Quinnen Williams? These are guys who literally change the outcomes of games. That’s why the top DTs make over $30M/year while the top TE makes $17M (and doesn’t deserve it). 16 DTs make more money than the top TE. 34 DTs make over $10M compared to 12 TEs. It’s not even remotely close. 
 
The problem with Bowers isn’t just that he’s a TE, but that he’s an undersized TE who may not be able to make the transition to to play TE in the NFL due to his size. He’s an exciting prospect, but one without a position in the NFL. Whether he’s a TE, H-back, or slot WR, none of those positions is worth a top ten pick. There just aren’t a lot of comps for 6’3”-235lb dudes having a ton of success in this league. I get that he’s faster/more agile than most, but he’s probably not faster or more agile than the WR he’d most likely be replacing on the field. He’s getting compared to Kittle but he’s much closer in size to Jusczcyk. The team that drafts him is going to have to rework their offense to include this sliding H-back in there instead of a slot receiver. In the Jets case, that’s Bowers instead of Gipson/Lazard. For all the love and accolades Bowers gets, I don’t think he’s a clear upgrade here at all. Now if you’re replacing Gipson/Lazard on the field with either Nabers or Odunze, you’ve clearly upgraded and, again, it’s not even close. And like DT, WR is a premium position. And the Jets are thin there. 
 
Throw in Bowers’ lingering hamstring after adding some weight in a failed attempt to appear TE sized, and that’s another concern. This guy is such a risky pick. It’s crazy to me that you guys can’t see that. 

Do Kelce, Kittle, Andrews, LaPorta, etc not alter games as well?

 

My point wasn’t to say DT isn’t valuable. My point was saying that if a player is an elite talent. It really doesn’t matter what position they play. Especially in modern football and how TEs seems to be more valuable every year.

 

I see him and MHJ as the lowest risk guys in this draft. So quite the opposite of you.

Every guy has concerns. No prospect is completely clean.

I like Odunze a ton but I’m worried with him that he’s not exactly this crisp route runner, his speed is average and a lot of his production is deep down field. Which doesn’t translate well to the NFL unless you’re crazy fast.

[GangGreened]

Trade back and BTJ > Bowers

[Bobby816]

3 minutes ago, GangGreened said:

Trade back and BTJ > Bowers

I like BTS but not over Bowers. In a trade back that’d be who I’d want.

[slats]

2 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

Do Kelce, Kittle, Andrews, LaPorta, etc not alter games as well?

 

Kelce: 6’5” - 250

Kittle: 6’4” - 250

Andrews: 6’5” - 247

LaPorta: the closest, at 6’3” - 245

LaPorta got force fed the ball in Detroit with 120 targets as a rookie. I don’t see that with Bowers here on the Jets when Rodgers has Breece to dump the ball off to, instead. But again, if Bowers had the same college tape at an inch or two taller and 15 or more pounds heavier, I’d at least be confident that he could play TE at the NFL level. I am not convinced of that at this time. 

[Bobby816]

1 minute ago, slats said:

Kelce: 6’5” - 250

Kittle: 6’4” - 250

Andrews: 6’5” - 247

LaPorta: the closest, at 6’3” - 245

LaPorta got force fed the ball in Detroit with 120 targets as a rookie. I don’t see that with Bowers here on the Jets when Rodgers has Breece to dump the ball off to, instead. But again, if Bowers had the same college tape at an inch or two taller and 15 or more pounds heavier, I’d at least be confident that he could play TE at the NFL level. I am not convinced of that at this time. 

Wait so there’s not different ways to win at positions?

Chris jones is 6’6” 325lbs and Aaron Donald is 6’1” 280lbs. Yet both are elite DTs. Yet there’s a gigantic size difference between them. Tyreeke Hill is 5’10” 190lbs Mike Evans is 6’5” 225lbs both elite WRs. Heck just on our own team look at the size difference between Sauce and Reed at CB and both are great. Look at the size difference between Mike Williams and Garrett Wilson.

 

If his size was such an issue why couldn’t NFL talent in college stop him?

[RedBeardedSavage]

23 minutes ago, slats said:

DT is 100% a premium position in the NFL. Guys like Aaron Donald, Chris Jones, or how about Quinnen Williams? These are guys who literally change the outcomes of games. That’s why the top DTs make over $30M/year while the top TE makes $17M (and doesn’t deserve it). 16 DTs make more money than the top TE. 34 DTs make over $10M compared to 12 TEs. It’s not even remotely close. 
 
The problem with Bowers isn’t just that he’s a TE, but that he’s an undersized TE who may not be able to make the transition to to play TE in the NFL due to his size. He’s an exciting prospect, but one without a position in the NFL. Whether he’s a TE, H-back, or slot WR, none of those positions is worth a top ten pick. There just aren’t a lot of comps for 6’3”-235lb dudes having a ton of success in this league. I get that he’s faster/more agile than most, but he’s probably not faster or more agile than the WR he’d most likely be replacing on the field. He’s getting compared to Kittle but he’s much closer in size to Jusczcyk. The team that drafts him is going to have to rework their offense to include this sliding H-back in there instead of a slot receiver. In the Jets case, that’s Bowers instead of Gipson/Lazard. For all the love and accolades Bowers gets, I don’t think he’s a clear upgrade here at all. Now if you’re replacing Gipson/Lazard on the field with either Nabers or Odunze, you’ve clearly upgraded and, again, it’s not even close. And like DT, WR is a premium position. And the Jets are thin there. 
 
Throw in Bowers’ lingering hamstring after adding some weight in a failed attempt to appear TE sized, and that’s another concern. This guy is such a risky pick. It’s crazy to me that you guys can’t see that. 

• the DT argument is perfect
• the Jusczcyk comp is disturbingly accurate

TE is supposed to be a mismatch position - too fast for LB'ers and too big for corners/safeties.

Bowers is small and we don't know how fast he is. 

[Jet_Engine1]

So, people tend to forget that when a player gets drafted from college and goes to the NFL, he isn't getting the Captain America serum. The same players Bowers smoked in the SEC will most likely be NFL players this year or next. Saying "we don't know if Bowers is fast" because he didn't run a 40 in shorts and a tank top while dismissing 3 years of tape of him outrunning dudes is silly. As for the size comp, sure, dimensionally, yeah, he's similar to Jusczyk... who ran about a 4.7.

 

I'm not a "Bowers or Bust" guy by any means, and have even jokingly called him a "Generational H-Back", but the kid can play. 

 

If he's the pick, cool. If they go WR/OL... cool. 

[slats]

14 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

Wait so there’s not different ways to win at positions?

Chris jones is 6’6” 325lbs and Aaron Donald is 6’1” 280lbs. Yet both are elite DTs. Yet there’s a gigantic size difference between them. Tyreeke Hill is 5’10” 190lbs Mike Evans is 6’5” 225lbs both elite WRs. Heck just on our own team look at the size difference between Sauce and Reed at CB and both are great. Look at the size difference between Mike Williams and Garrett Wilson.

 

If his size was such an issue why couldn’t NFL talent in college stop him?

DT, WR, and CB are all premium positions in the NFL. The top players are the top players because of elite size, elite skills, or some combination of the two. Hill beats you by always being the fastest guy on the field, Evans beats you by being bigger and stronger and probably about the same speed as Brock Bowers. 
 
Bowers doesn’t offer any of that. We know he’s undersized, that he refused to test, and that he has a hamstring issue that’s often a death knell for speed guys. He’s fast, but he’s not record setting fast. You’re projecting this guy who collected about half of his receptions behind the LOS to enter the league as an elite TE right out of the gate. To me, that’s insanity. Could he do it? Sure. Why not? Would I bet a top ten pick on that? No ****ing way. 

[Jet Nut]

13 hours ago, T0mShane said:

He was asked specifically the earliest he could see Bowers going. 

And it’s at 15?  
There’s a difference between just shooting for clicks and what he’s been saying for a month I guess

[Bobby816]

20 minutes ago, slats said:

DT, WR, and CB are all premium positions in the NFL. The top players are the top players because of elite size, elite skills, or some combination of the two. Hill beats you by always being the fastest guy on the field, Evans beats you by being bigger and stronger and probably about the same speed as Brock Bowers. 
 
Bowers doesn’t offer any of that. We know he’s undersized, that he refused to test, and that he has a hamstring issue that’s often a death knell for speed guys. He’s fast, but he’s not record setting fast. You’re projecting this guy who collected about half of his receptions behind the LOS to enter the league as an elite TE right out of the gate. To me, that’s insanity. Could he do it? Sure. Why not? Would I bet a top ten pick on that? No ****ing way. 

Everything you mentioned can be named about every guy at 10th overall. As I stated issues some could have with Odunze.

Just bc Odunze’s position next to his name says WR makes a difference? Even though he’s very well be used “similar” being receiving weapons. Except Odunze offers little to nothing blocking. Which is getting out to the side of a skill that Bowers has. And he was blocking SEC DEs

[T0mShane]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

And it’s at 15?  

I provided the link and the time stamp!

[Jet_Engine1]

26 minutes ago, slats said:

DT, WR, and CB are all premium positions in the NFL. The top players are the top players because of elite size, elite skills, or some combination of the two. Hill beats you by always being the fastest guy on the field, Evans beats you by being bigger and stronger and probably about the same speed as Brock Bowers. 
 
Bowers doesn’t offer any of that. We know he’s undersized, that he refused to test, and that he has a hamstring issue that’s often a death knell for speed guys. He’s fast, but he’s not record setting fast. You’re projecting this guy who collected about half of his receptions behind the LOS to enter the league as an elite TE right out of the gate. To me, that’s insanity. Could he do it? Sure. Why not? Would I bet a top ten pick on that? No ****ing way. 

 

Saying that Brock Bowers "Refused to test" is total crap. You meant Caleb Williams... right?

Quote

 

Brock Bowers Won’t Be in Action at Georgia Pro Day
Georgia tight end Bowers suffered a high ankle sprain during the 2023 college football campaign that cost him a month of playing time. 

Two weeks ago, the 2024 NFL Combine took place in Indianapolis, and Bowers did not participate in any of the drills. The Georgia tight end wanted to heal the ankle as much as possible, with the intention of participating at Georgia’s Pro Day.

Georgia hosts their pro day today, Wednesday, March 13, with multiple draft-eligible Bulldogs taking to the field to showcase their athleticism in testing events and workout in positional drills.

However, Bowers — alongside potential first-round offensive tackle Amarius Mims — will not participate at the Georgia Pro Day. The ankle appears to not be 100% yet, requiring additional time for it to heal.

 

 

[RedBeardedSavage]

46 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

So, people tend to forget that when a player gets drafted from college and goes to the NFL, he isn't getting the Captain America serum. The same players Bowers smoked in the SEC will most likely be NFL players this year or next. Saying "we don't know if Bowers is fast" because he didn't run a 40 in shorts and a tank top while dismissing 3 years of tape of him outrunning dudes is silly. As for the size comp, sure, dimensionally, yeah, he's similar to Jusczyk... who ran about a 4.7.

 

I'm not a "Bowers or Bust" guy by any means, and have even jokingly called him a "Generational H-Back", but the kid can play. 

 

If he's the pick, cool. If they go WR/OL... cool. 

A lot of other posters/non-Brock-cultists in this thread seem to give señor Bowers the benefit of the doubt and say "he's great, and I don't question his speed, but TE/h-back simply is not a premium position". It's a reasonable, intelligent and fair take. 

Allow me to throw caution right in the winds' face and be a hyperbolic douchebag:

• I absolutely believe Bowers is hiding from testing because he is not an elite athlete (by NFL standards, of course, not us unwashed heathens)
• While a disproportionate amount of the NFL is from the SEC, I feel people underrate the absolute scarceness of NFL talent, NFL starter talent and NFL above-average starter talent - that is to say, Brock was still facing mostly a bunch of dudes that will not play in the NFL, will not start in the NFL and will not be good in the NFL 

The NFL is a game of freaks. I don't want to spend high picks on dudes that are not freakish. For all the crap the combine takes - and the televised, commercialized, drawn-out nature of it is super cringe - quantifiable athletic measurements do matter in separating the Han Solos from the Jek Porkins. 

[slats]

3 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

Everything you mentioned can be named about every guy at 10th overall. As I stated issues some could have with Odunze.

Just bc Odunze’s position next to his name says WR makes a difference? Even though he’s very well be used “similar” being receiving weapons. Except Odunze offers little to nothing blocking. Which is getting out to the side of a skill that Bowers has. And he was blocking SEC DEs

Please list all the 6’3”, 235lb guys who have dominated on offense at the NFL level. 

[derp]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I provided the link and the time stamp!

Propping up Bowers in rankings is such an easy take for draft media folks because when he doesn't go as high as they have him ranked then they can blame the position and if he isn't elite they can blame the situation. But if he hits they can be like hey look I nailed this. Plus everyone is doing it. No risk, really.

[slats]

11 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

 

Saying that Brock Bowers "Refused to test" is total crap. You meant Caleb Williams... right?

 

I’d say that if his high ankle sprain from the college football season is still keeping him from doing any testing (but also doesn’t stop him from doing positional drills?) is a red flag in and of itself. I thought it was his hamstring, though, which might be more concerning. 

[Bobby816]

4 minutes ago, slats said:

Please list all the 6’3”, 235lb guys who have dominated on offense at the NFL level. 

DK Metcalf. George Kittle. AJ Brown. Cooper Kupp. Dalton Schultz. And this is just currently in the league.

[derp]

1 minute ago, Bobby816 said:

DK Metcalf. George Kittle. AJ Brown. Cooper Kupp. Dalton Schultz. And this is just currently in the league.

I’m just guessing but I don’t think he meant with a two inch and 25 pound margin of error. And Dalton Schultz has dominated?!?

[slats]

1 minute ago, Bobby816 said:

DK Metcalf. George Kittle. AJ Brown. Cooper Kupp. Dalton Schultz. And this is just currently in the league.

Just stop. The only guy there listed at Bowers size is Metcalf, who ran a 4.33 40. 

[RedBeardedSavage]

6 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

DK Metcalf. George Kittle. AJ Brown. Cooper Kupp. Dalton Schultz. And this is just currently in the league.

I'm not so sure about all of those measurements, but ehh, not a single one of those guys was a first-round pick.

If the investment cost was a mid-round pick for Brock, as it was for nearly everyone you listed above, the risk and opportunity cost would be a lot less. 

Also, pretty sure all of those dudes tested athletically and tested pretty well (Kupp doing the worst, but also had the best 3 cone I've heard of @ his pro day {6.53}, which makes sense considering how well that dude separates in the NFL).

[T0mShane]

10 minutes ago, slats said:

I’d say that if his high ankle sprain from the college football season is still keeping him from doing any testing (but also doesn’t stop him from doing positional drills?) is a red flag in and of itself. I thought it was his hamstring, though, which might be more concerning. 

Originally it was the ankle sprain, but as they got closer to Georgia’s Pro Day, it morphed into a hamstring. Seems likely that he just didn’t want to put up sh*tty lateral agility scores and went out of his way to avoid getting bad numbers committed to paper.