Darrelle Revis Holdout: MERGED

[JustInFudge]

I think last night and last Monday you see exactly why the Jets are hesitant to give Revis that deal. Having all these stars on a team completely wipes out the depth on the club. How bad is it when your DC and HC on TV basically say in a preseason game "you know whats even worse is that some of these guys have to play for us in meaningful games"? If you sign someone to a contract like Revis is wanting is wipes out not just the backend depth but also wipes out one of two of those mid rung guys. The Calvin Pace or Bart Scott types. Thats very tough. And there is no corner in the NFL that can make that kind of impact, even one as good as Revis.

Great point and I was having this conversation with my brother last night after watching the show. We have too much potential to be a legitimate long term contender if Sanchez is the real deal to give the farm away to a CB. Its not worth it.

Let him go to Cleveland or St. Louis where there is no star power and he can be a paid loser for the rest of his career.

[Sperm Edwards]

I think last night and last Monday you see exactly why the Jets are hesitant to give Revis that deal. Having all these stars on a team completely wipes out the depth on the club. How bad is it when your DC and HC on TV basically say in a preseason game "you know whats even worse is that some of these guys have to play for us in meaningful games"? If you sign someone to a contract like Revis is wanting is wipes out not just the backend depth but also wipes out one of two of those mid rung guys. The Calvin Pace or Bart Scott types. Thats very tough. And there is no corner in the NFL that can make that kind of impact, even one as good as Revis.

I truly think that's only half of it. I don't doubt for a minute that the 2nd-team depth being filled with 3rd-team depth has escaped the eyes of the Jets coaches and brass. I truly think it's more, and it's that they (probably like many owners) want to get away from bloated signing bonuses that cause 1-year dips in "salary" that cause holdouts. They'd rather guarantee the first 2-3 years with a smaller amount up front. After 3 years the base salary is still good because you won't have $10M or $20M past signing/option/roster bonus being viewed upon as ancient history as though those checks were never cashed, or that they are somehow to be viewed upon as payment for that first season or two and nothing more. Absent that, the year-to-year base salaries would be higher.

What's worse than guaranteeing a contract (like with baseball players) and having a severe injury cripple the team's cap as much as the player's body? Giving a player significant up-front bonus money and having this once-grateful player act like a spoiled child, sitting out the season while 100% healthy and under contract. While guaranteed salaries don't give you the same scheming opportunities that strategically-timed bonuses do, I think the league is seeing that no matter how much bonus money a player gets up-front it may never be enough to prevent a future holdout.

It's a 2-way street, that players would also benefit from guarantees instead of worrying about being cap-casualty cuts. Either way they'd get money for the current and future guaranteed years instead of relying on past bonus money they may have already largely pissed away. It was one thing when players would hold out for better new contracts in their "contract year" when both parties want to hammer something out in a mutually beneficial way. It's another thing when players now hold out for better new contracts when there are still multiple years left on a deal they signed, and for which they cashed up-front, advance-payment bonus checks.

[jason423]

I truly think that's only half of it. I don't doubt for a minute that the 2nd-team depth being filled with 3rd-team depth has escaped the eyes of the Jets coaches and brass. I truly think it's more, and it's that they (probably like many owners) want to get away from bloated signing bonuses that cause 1-year dips in "salary" that cause holdouts. They'd rather guarantee the first 2-3 years with a smaller amount up front. After 3 years the base salary is still good because you won't have $10M or $20M past signing/option/roster bonus being viewed upon as ancient history as though those checks were never cashed, or that they are somehow to be viewed upon as payment for that first season or two and nothing more. Absent that, the year-to-year base salaries would be higher.

What's worse than guaranteeing a contract (like with baseball players) and having a severe injury cripple the team's cap as much as the player's body? Giving a player significant up-front bonus money and having this once-grateful player act like a spoiled child, sitting out the season while 100% healthy and under contract. While guaranteed salaries don't give you the same scheming opportunities that strategically-timed bonuses do, I think the league is seeing that no matter how much bonus money a player gets up-front it may never be enough to prevent a future holdout.

It's a 2-way street, that players would also benefit from guarantees instead of worrying about being cap-casualty cuts. Either way they'd get money for the current and future guaranteed years instead of relying on past bonus money they may have already largely pissed away. It was one thing when players would hold out for better new contracts in their "contract year" when both parties want to hammer something out in a mutually beneficial way. It's another thing when players now hold out for better new contracts when there are still multiple years left on a deal they signed, and for which they cashed up-front, advance-payment bonus checks.

I think the bonus deal is a major issue with Revis in particular. The Jets bent over backwards to get him to agree to a 6 year deal and gave him a potential guarantee that would have made him the 3rd pick in the draft that year. They structured the deal where he would make mega money in the first four years to where, even if he stunk, he was going to be paid like the 8th or 9th pick in the draft. All of that was designed to avoid a holdout during the first 5 years of the deal. But what happened? He held out because 1 years salary was too low for his liking. You absolutely can not trust a guy like that. You can not pay him a boatload of dough in 2010 and then expect him to be happy in 2014 when he is making 6 million dollars and 8 other corners make 9-11 million. Hell hold out again. That bonus means nothing. In his case the Jets really have to use the same mechanisms that Houston used with Andre Johnson where he gives up pretty high workout or roster bonuses if he ever holds out. The team already did it with Brick at the back end of his deal, but it would need to be much higher for Revis.

My whole take on this is that if Sanchez is the goods the Jets dont need Revis. He is a luxury at that point and you dont pay QB money for a luxury. If Sanchez stinks and the plan is to try to get by with mediocre vets at the position he becomes more of a necessity that you can consider, but the Jets can not make that judgment until 2011.

[bitonti]

My whole take on this is that if Sanchez is the goods the Jets dont need Revis.

I agree but all signs point to Sanchez won't be the goods until maybe year 5 of his career.

Right now he's marginally better than last year. Up-and-down. MNF pretty much proved that.

[bitonti]

Your point is to get him signed no matter what the cost, which is no way to run a team.

They don't give out trophies for cap management, yet the one team you tried to counter the Jets with is Philadelphia, the poster-child for frugal cap management.

The Jets chances of winning a SB goes up with Revis. Their chances go down without him. That is not a reason to tear up the contract of a player with 3 years left on his deal and replace it with one averaging $16M per season.

Philly hasn't won jack crap. That's exactly what I dont want. endless 9-7 years and no ring.

I dont necessarily think it will have to be 16 mil per to get it done but they have to give him a real bonus, possibly in the 8 figures.

[Jetsfan80]

I agree but all signs point to Sanchez won't be the goods until maybe year 5 of his career.

Right now he's marginally better than last year. Up-and-down. MNF pretty much proved that.

It was preseason bro. How you gleaned Sanchez's progression based on a few series of action is beyond me. The fact that you aren't confident in Sanchez tells me he's destined for greatness, immediately.

[Jetsfan80]

Philly hasn't won jack crap. That's exactly what I dont want. endless 9-7 years and no ring.

When all is said and done, Rex will be proven to have been a better HC than Andy Reid.

[stoicsentry]

IF I'm the only living man on earth I'll win People Magazine's Sexiest Man Alive. BFD.

Well yes obviously.

I'm talking about more likely scenarios. For example if there is a stock market crash and Johnson & Johnson takes a nose dive and then let's say Woody dies in a freak acid rain storm, the board of directors is struck by lightning, etc.. My point is, if all that happens, the Jets probably won't have a good roster in 2012.

[GreenReaper]

I think last night and last Monday you see exactly why the Jets are hesitant to give Revis that deal. Having all these stars on a team completely wipes out the depth on the club. How bad is it when your DC and HC on TV basically say in a preseason game "you know whats even worse is that some of these guys have to play for us in meaningful games"? If you sign someone to a contract like Revis is wanting is wipes out not just the backend depth but also wipes out one of two of those mid rung guys. The Calvin Pace or Bart Scott types. Thats very tough. And there is no corner in the NFL that can make that kind of impact, even one as good as Revis.

+1

The quality of those 2nd - 3rd tier players are difference makers. You need quality depth to effectively survive a grueling 16 game season. Jets lost team MVP type players in Kris Jenkins and Leon Washington. Yet still ended up #1 in defense and #1 in rushing.

[bitonti]

It was preseason bro. How you gleaned Sanchez's progression based on a few series of action is beyond me. The fact that you aren't confident in Sanchez tells me he's destined for greatness, immediately.

so when Sanchez threw late into double coverage... you are disregarding that because the sample size isn't big enough?

If you read my posts you'd see I think Sanchez will be very good. Just not right now. He will be up and down this year.

[Jetsfan80]

so when Sanchez threw late into double coverage... you are disregarding that because the sample size isn't big enough?

If you read my posts you'd see I think Sanchez will be very good. Just not right now. He will be up and down this year.

I'm saying it was one play in one preseason game. Too early to pass judgment on how well he'll perform this coming season.

[Sperm Edwards]

Well yes obviously.

I'm talking about more likely scenarios. For example if there is a stock market crash and Johnson & Johnson takes a nose dive and then let's say Woody dies in a freak acid rain storm, the board of directors is struck by lightning, etc.. My point is, if all that happens, the Jets probably won't have a good roster in 2012.

As long as we understand each other.

[newjakecity]

http://twitter.com/BobGlauber

In 2008, A. Samuel signed 6-year, $57 million contract as UFA. In 2010, w 3 yrs left on contract, Revis has turned down 10-year, $120 mil.

Can't make this s*** up.

And yes, I know that Revis is better than Samuel, and yes I know we don't know the guaranteed money, since we're relying on good faith that Revis and his agents won't pull this crap again.

Its interesting nonetheless.

[newjakecity]

http://twitter.com/BobGlauber

In 2008, A. Samuel signed 6-year, $57 million contract as UFA. In 2010, w 3 yrs left on contract, Revis has turned down 10-year, $120 mil.

Can't make this s*** up.

And yes, I know that Revis is better than Samuel, and yes I know we don't know the guaranteed money, since we're relying on good faith that Revis and his agents won't pull this crap again.

Its interesting nonetheless.

To further this conversation:

http://twitter.com/BobGlauber

$162 million. RT @DeBo_XL So what does Revis really want?

SMH. Samuel isn't on Revis's level, but he wants a contract that totals nearly three times what Samuel got. Unbelievable.

Schwartz and Feinsod don't negotiate, they extort.

[visajets]

Revis wants the stadium named after him plus a whole lotta $$$.

[newjakecity]

I honestly hope negotiations are going well, but I have my doubts. If they are not and I'm Mike Tannenbaum, on August 30th (one week from Labor Day, two weeks from the start of the season), I give the Revis team an ultimatum (me as Tannenbaum):

1) Take the long term deal we proposed at $120 million. If guranteed money is an issue, we can discuss it that week.

OR

2) Take the short term deal and we'll revisit next year. If we do that, we would consider (and this would be dependent on a number of factors so it is in no way a promise) not buying back your years but instead making you an RFA. That way you can try to get the money you want and we protect ourselves by either matching it or getting a 1st and 3rd in the process. Like I said, that's dependent on a number of factors (status of poison pill, how well does Cromartie play, etc)

The deadline for accepting both deals is Labor Day. If you sign on Labor Day or before, you can prepare with your team to take on Balitmore. If you do not, then negotiations are cut off at which point you can report anytime you want at your current salary (minus fines) or sit the year. We are really excited about the team we have and we CANNOT have years of hard work being derailed due to a contract dispute distraction (no matter who that player is).

And BTW, you sit the year and you risk millions in endorsements as not only will you not be playing the sport that helps you get endorsements in sports history, but you'll go down as a New York villan that nobdoy would want endorsing their products.

Choice is yours.

P.S Schwartz/Feinsod: You're already on thin ice as it is with this organization. If this holdout lasts into the season, you can forget about any of your clients (draft eligible player or free agent, superstar or journeyman) EVER joining the Jets organization. We won't negotiate to help improve your client's salary, we make it clear in pre-draft talk that we won't take your client and why. You may not care now, but this is going to cost you money in the long run.

I almost think if he plays this year and we get a 1st and 3rd for him next year, (if Cromartie and Wilson both play well that is and Cromartie can be resigned), I almost think we should do it. We'd have Revis for this year, maximize what we can get next year, and are more likely to keep the rest of our core around afterwards.

But note that if he chose to sit out, I would make this guy rot before I ever gave him what he wanted. If he chose to come back, he'd be the best dime back in NFL history. If he didn't, he'd be part of a "Where are they now" segment.

[Aten]

P.S Schwartz/Feinsod: You're already on thin ice as it is with this organization. If this holdout lasts into the season, you can forget about any of your clients (draft eligible player or free agent, superstar or journeyman) EVER joining the Jets organization. We won't negotiate to help improve your client's salary, we make it clear in pre-draft talk that we won't take your client and why. You may not care now, but this is going to cost you money in the long run.

Explain to me how this could possibly be the agents' fault when the Jets have stated that they're not dealing on guaranteed money or anything else until they agree on a number for total compensation. Have you just never been paying attention when literally every single year after the first big free agent signs the talking heads explain why the total is just a silly made-up number and what really matters is stuff like the guarantees and the payout over the first three years? The Jets have publicly espoused the backward and retarded position that there needs to be an agreement on the arbitrary term before the terms that actually matter are addressed.

[newjakecity]

I'm a stalker with nothing to add to a conversation.

Deleted original comment. Discretion is the better part of valor.

But I agree with the above.

[Aten]

Deleted original comment. Discretion is the better part of valor.

But I agree with the above.

******* certainly applies, but would you care to explain stalker?

[Aten]

******* certainly applies, but would you care to explain stalker?

Oh, okay, looked it up. This is Florio guy for those who don't know. I sure didn't.

[SouthernJet]

did i miss something..

was there offciial word today revis camp is offciially asking for 16M /yr regardless of length of contract?

[newjakecity]

did i miss something..

was there offciial word today revis camp is offciially asking for 16M /yr regardless of length of contract?

Its from a Bob Glauber tweet. Might or might not be accurate, but considering that he supposedly wants $160 million, it makes sense.

[SouthernJet]

Its from a Bob Glauber tweet. Might or might not be accurate, but considering that he supposedly wants $160 million, it makes sense.

fine , 160M over 15 years, with a 20M signing bonus

[slats]

The deadline for accepting both deals is Labor Day. If you sign on Labor Day or before, you can prepare with your team to take on Balitmore. If you do not, then negotiations are cut off at which point you can report anytime you want at your current salary (minus fines) or sit the year. We are really excited about the team we have and we CANNOT have years of hard work being derailed due to a contract dispute distraction (no matter who that player is).

I guess it's fun to take a hard line and all, but what happens if he extends his hold out into the beginning of the season and the Jets are 0-2, largely because the other team's #1 WR is running circles around Cromartie and his assistants?

I almost think if he plays this year and we get a 1st and 3rd for him next year, (if Cromartie and Wilson both play well that is and Cromartie can be resigned), I almost think we should do it. We'd have Revis for this year, maximize what we can get next year, and are more likely to keep the rest of our core around afterwards.

There's no way he plays this year and gets traded next spring. None. The only way he's traded is if he sits out the entire season.

And a 1st and 3rd? What are you thinking, an RFA tender? What if the team that signs him is in the bottom of the first round? Is that even close to value? Never mind the fact draft picks do not come with guarantees. Tanny may be pretty good, but that didn't stop him from drafting Vernon and Kellen.

[jgb]

nnamdi K entitles him to franchise QB money next season (if there is one) - trade revis for nnamdi straight up conditional on signing a long term deal with nnamdi.

[SoFlaJets]

I keep coming back to my Jets stuff with hope that I'll seea REVIS SIGNED!!!! header....sigh...

[GodWearsAGrayHoodie]

I guess it's fun to take a hard line and all, but what happens if he extends his hold out into the beginning of the season and the Jets are 0-2, largely because the other team's #1 WR is running circles around Cromartie and his assistants?

The Jets franchise existed for 48 years with Darrelle Shavar Revis and I am willing to bet it will still be going strong for many years after Revis is pushing up daisies. On the other hand if Darrelle Shavar Revis takes a hard line and never takes another snap in the NFL, he will have squandered his opportunity to potentially have a hall of fame career and instead he will just be another JAG who played in the NFL for three years, after a year or two forgotten by all but Jet fans and only brought up as the punch line of a joke.

The NFL does not need Revis or Manning or Brady or any one player.

[SoFlaJets]

The Jets franchise existed for 48 years with Darrelle Shavar Revis and I am willing to bet it will still be going strong for many years after Revis is pushing up daisies. On the other hand if Darrelle Shavar Revis takes a hard line and never takes another snap in the NFL, he will have squandered his opportunity to potentially have a hall of fame career and instead he will just be another JAG who played in the NFL for three years, after a year or two forgotten by all but Jet fans and only brought up as the punch line of a joke.

The NFL does not need Revis or Manning or Brady or any one player.

He'll be there vs the Ravens bro-remember: I had a vision...

[visajets]

The difference between 0-2 is Revis and Tanne needs to get this thing done. Cro and Revis on the corners = SHUTDOWN DEFENSE.

[dbatesman]

Deleted original comment. Discretion is the better part of valor.

******* certainly applies

Oh come on. Now you've got everyone all curious. Or maybe just me.

[newjakecity]

I guess it's fun to take a hard line and all, but what happens if he extends his hold out into the beginning of the season and the Jets are 0-2, largely because the other team's #1 WR is running circles around Cromartie and his assistants?

There's no way he plays this year and gets traded next spring. None. The only way he's traded is if he sits out the entire season.

And a 1st and 3rd? What are you thinking, an RFA tender? What if the team that signs him is in the bottom of the first round? Is that even close to value? Never mind the fact draft picks do not come with guarantees. Tanny may be pretty good, but that didn't stop him from drafting Vernon and Kellen.

Where's the limit?

And I didn't think we should take a hard line, but we can't risk this becoming a season long thing regardless of the outcome and regardless of whether this results in an 0-2 start or whatever.

And suppose that doesn't happen. Suppose the Jets start out 2-0 (or the losses aren't as a result of Cromartie and "his assistants", Wilson looks pretty good btw and shouldn't be minimized). Wouldn't Revis lose leverage?

Bottom line, my opinion, he holds out one game, then I cut off negotiations until he comes back.

[newjakecity]

He'll be there vs the Ravens bro-remember: I had a vision...

I really hope you're right. I just don't trust Revis's agents.

[slats]

Where's the limit?

And I didn't think we should take a hard line, but we can't risk this becoming a season long thing regardless of the outcome and regardless of whether this results in an 0-2 start or whatever.

And suppose that doesn't happen. Suppose the Jets start out 2-0 (or the losses aren't as a result of Cromartie and "his assistants", Wilson looks pretty good btw and shouldn't be minimized). Wouldn't Revis lose leverage?

Bottom line, my opinion, he holds out one game, then I cut off negotiations until he comes back.

Not wanting it to be a season long thing and refusing to negotiate if the holdout lasts beyond Labor Day are two diametrically opposed positions.

I hope Revis ends his hold out tonight, and if he doesn't I hope the Jets go 19-0. And of course if the Jets do well without him he loses leverage. A lot of it. That's another risk he'd be taking.

But if he stays out for the season, it's a season long thing. It will remain alive in the press. As much as the Jets need the guy when the season opens up, they'll need him that much more if they manage to get on another playoff run. That's when they'll be playing the best offenses in the league, when every game is an elimination game. They're going to need this guy when they play the Colts, Pats, Saints, or Cowboys. If this holdout lasts until December, the Jets need to be ready to negotiate and sign Revis before their season's over.

Taking a hard line sounds tough and all, but it's not realistic. If it lasts into the regular season, one side or the other is going to lose leverage, and the both should be ready to cut a deal. They need each other.

[newjakecity]

Not wanting it to be a season long thing and refusing to negotiate if the holdout lasts beyond Labor Day are two diametrically opposed positions.

I hope Revis ends his hold out tonight, and if he doesn't I hope the Jets go 19-0. And of course if the Jets do well without him he loses leverage. A lot of it. That's another risk he'd be taking.

But if he stays out for the season, it's a season long thing. It will remain alive in the press. As much as the Jets need the guy when the season opens up, they'll need him that much more if they manage to get on another playoff run. That's when they'll be playing the best offenses in the league, when every game is an elimination game. They're going to need this guy when they play the Colts, Pats, Saints, or Cowboys. If this holdout lasts until December, the Jets need to be ready to negotiate and sign Revis before their season's over.

Taking a hard line sounds tough and all, but it's not realistic. If it lasts into the regular season, one side or the other is going to lose leverage, and the both should be ready to cut a deal. They need each other.

That I agree with you 100% on and have felt that way from the beginning.

Jets are not likely super bowl contenders without Revis.

Revis loses any earning power (playing football or endorsements) by not playing.

I only say labor day because it just seems like it's being put into a position where he would ultimately gain leverage by the Jets losing (and vice versa) if this goes into the season. Simply put due to history, I really have a hard time trusting Neil Schwartz.

I'm not one of those "honor your contract" people. I almost always side with the players when it comes to wanting to get more money (they can get cut for underperforming or if they get injured to a point that diminishes their skill). But it just seems like that Neil Schwartz and Jon Feinsod are holding what could be a special season hostage in order to get all of their demands met without seemingly any negotiation and I don't like the idea of rewarding that type of behavior (nor do I think it makes business sense).

[GodWearsAGrayHoodie]

Taking a hard line sounds tough and all, but it's not realistic.

If I was an owner of an NFL team here is how I would deal with holdouts.....

Fax a deal to the agent that is fair and reasonable. Indicate this is the best deal you will get from us. Clearly state on the offer that the offer expires in 24 hours. Provide a copy of offer to favorite reporter.

24 hours later fax the exact same offer except with all dollar amounts being 1% less. Once again clearly state that this is the best offer you will get from us and it expires in 24 hours. Provide copy to favorite reporter.

24 hours after that fax a third offer this time with all dollar amounts being 1% less than the second offer.

Repeat every day until holdout ends or my offer drops down to as low as the league minimum allows.

Once or twice as an NFL owner I would lose a player to an indefinite holdout. But with every other player they will be at camp on time cause they will know I am willing to have a player rot or lose someone to being redrafted.

Of course this is predicated on actually offering a reasonable offer in the first place.