Winning Culture, Leadership, and Quality

[UnitedWhofans]

Chris Canty on the radio yesterday said that the focus should be on winning games in order to create "a winning culture" The definition of this seems to be fluid to Jets fans like myself. If the definition of winning culture has to do with championships only, then it seems almost impossible for a team to create one, especially given that only one team wins the Super Bowl every year.

So the other definition is to string together winning/competitive seasons, which if the case, then trying to win these games is a definite option. The only way that Bowles should play Petty is to have a guarantee that his job is safe. Why should he play the mystery if his job is not safe?

Which brings me to leadership. This team has no leadership players. Wilkerson and Mangold, should be but they are not the personalities that Ray Lewis had or Walter Payton. The Jets need a player with this type of personality. A take charge person. A quality person.

And speaking of quality, it could be said very fairly that coming into this season, 3-5 or 4-4 is where the Jets were expected to be given their schedule. They have beaten all the teams that they were supposed to beat and lost to all the teams they should have lost to. The Bengals game and the failure of Folk in that game is the difference between 3 and 4 wins.

Which is why I think most people are just angry because of the way they have played, the quality. Supporting that notion is the simple fact that despite winning 2 games in a row, people have had very little positive to say. This type of attitude should logically be held for a team with actual expectations or a past of quality, like the Yankees in baseball, instead of a struggling franchise trying to rebuild. As least that's how I see it. I would wish that somebody would explain to to me why they consider the opposite to be true.

[BroadwayJoe12]

You don't need to wax philosophical about why people are angry, it's extremely simple: unless Hackenberg or Petty are franchise QBs, the future is terribly bleak, as it was years ago when we lost out on Mariota and Winston for the sake of "building a winning culture." Finding a franchise QB = building a winning culture. Winning too many games with a lame-duck, journeyman-won't-be-on-your-team-again-next-season QB is not building a winning culture. People are angry, because if the team isn't going to make the playoffs with this roster and at the same time not develop or see what you have at the QB position, the only thing winning does is land them another non-franchise-changing player in the middle of the draft, while you see Winston and Mariota turn into quality players. Unless this team makes the playoffs, winning accomplishes nothing but a lower draft-pick. 

[UnitedWhofans]

7 minutes ago, BroadwayJoe12 said:

You don't need to wax philosophical about why people are angry, it's extremely simple: unless Hackenberg or Petty are franchise QBs, the future is terribly bleak, as it was years ago when we lost out on Mariota and Winston for the sake of "building a winning culture." Finding a franchise QB = building a winning culture. Winning too many games with a lame-duck, journeyman-won't-be-on-your-team-again-next-season QB is not building a winning culture. People are angry, because if the team isn't going to make the playoffs with this roster and at the same time not develop or see what you have at the QB position, the only thing winning does is land them another non-franchise-changing player in the middle of the draft, while you see Winston and Mariota turn into quality players. Unless this team makes the playoffs, winning accomplishes nothing but a lower draft-pick. 

So franchise changing players can only be taken in the top ten. Got it. Then why are the Jaguars still bad? Why are the Browns picking in the top ten every year? Why are the Rams picking in the top ten every year? What happened to their "franchise changing" players.

Hell, the franchise changing player for the Rams came from a grocery store.

And the good thing if Hackenberg and Petty is if they fail, more QB selections come. That's the whole point of the Ron Wolf method.

The only ways you get a franchise QB in the NFL is to be very lucky or develop one. 

[BroadwayJoe12]

3 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

So franchise changing players can only be taken in the top ten. Got it. Then why are the Jaguars still bad? Why are the Browns picking in the top ten every year? Why are the Rams picking in the top ten every year? What happened to their "franchise changing" players.

Hell, the franchise changing player for the Rams came from a grocery store.

And the good thing if Hackenberg and Petty is if they fail, more QB selections come. That's the whole point of the Ron Wolf method.

Because the Browns are one of the few franchises that don't make the Jets look like mouth-breathing ogres; e.g. passing on Wentz. The Rams franchise-changing player wound up being injury prone, but at least they were in position to do so. You can save yourself the page-length arguments, because history has shown, despite some outliers, that you have a better shot of landing a franchise-changing player in the top few picks then you do in the lower rounds. 

[Larz]

the jets are playing to the level of competition because bowles is lost. If this doesn't change, he needs to go

get over it

[Larz]

1 hour ago, BroadwayJoe12 said:

You don't need to wax philosophical about why people are angry, it's extremely simple: unless Hackenberg or Petty are franchise QBs, the future is terribly bleak, as it was years ago when we lost out on Mariota and Winston for the sake of "building a winning culture." Finding a franchise QB = building a winning culture. Winning too many games with a lame-duck, journeyman-won't-be-on-your-team-again-next-season QB is not building a winning culture. People are angry, because if the team isn't going to make the playoffs with this roster and at the same time not develop or see what you have at the QB position, the only thing winning does is land them another non-franchise-changing player in the middle of the draft, while you see Winston and Mariota turn into quality players. Unless this team makes the playoffs, winning accomplishes nothing but a lower draft-pick. 

someone needs to put this to music so it can be the jets theme song. probably rap or death metal

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, Larz said:

the jets are playing to the level of competition because bowles is lost. If this doesn't change, he needs to go

get over it

I'm more concerned about the GM going than the coach, although I do believe that Bowles deserves a 3rd season.

[RutgersJetFan]

1 hour ago, BroadwayJoe12 said:

You don't need to wax philosophical about why people are angry, it's extremely simple: unless Hackenberg or Petty are franchise QBs, the future is terribly bleak, as it was years ago when we lost out on Mariota and Winston for the sake of "building a winning culture."

Dude, the preferred nomenclature is learning how to win.

[UnitedWhofans]

BTW,  the Jets have had top ten picks in their recent history since the 1990s. Mark Sanchez, Dee Milliner, Leonard Williams, Keyshawn Johnson, Vernon Gholston, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Dewayne Robertson, James Farrior

I would say 2 impact players out of those: D'Brick and Leonard Williams. 

So getting a top ten pick doesn't guarantee success.

[joewilly12]

I said it months ago the Jets lack identity. 

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, joewilly12 said:

I said it months ago the Jets lack identity. 

Leadership helps to create an identity, so there you go.

[Larz]

27 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

I'm more concerned about the GM going than the coach, although I do believe that Bowles deserves a 3rd season.

the jets are on a classic schedule roller coaster because they don't have a QB.  shame on both of them for that

next years schedule will be easier, they will do better, than the next schedule is tougher and they will do worse

repeat

[BroadwayJoe12]

21 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

BTW,  the Jets have had top ten picks in their recent history since the 1990s. Mark Sanchez, Dee Milliner, Leonard Williams, Keyshawn Johnson, Vernon Gholston, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Dewayne Robertson, James Farrior

I would say 2 impact players out of those: D'Brick and Leonard Williams. 

So getting a top ten pick doesn't guarantee success.

I'm not entirely sure you're grasping the concept: having a higher pick  =/= guaranteed drafting of franchise player, however, having a higher picker = having a better opportunity to draft a franchise player. Caveat: you have to have a FO in place capable of discerning said franchise player. Nothing is guaranteed, it's about maximizing your chances for success. All things being equal, which our FO has time and again shown that they are not, having a higher pick increases your chances for success. That simply cannot be argued. 

[BroadwayJoe12]

32 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Dude, the preferred nomenclature is learning how to win.

[RoadFan]

This franchise needs to lose... and lose...and lose some more.  4 years of losing. 

Anyone rooting for the Jets to win a meaningless game tomorrow doesn't understand what it will take to end the Jets drought.

Build for 2020 and beyond.  O-Line, find a QB, a pass rusher, and a secondary.  The opportunity is to build a team that will regularly win the AFCE when Brady is done playing.  Anything before 2020 is foolish and will only delay a SB appearance even further.

[The Crusher]

4 minutes ago, RoadFan said:

This franchise needs to lose... and lose...and lose some more.  4 years of losing. 

Anyone rooting for the Jets to win a meaningless game tomorrow doesn't understand what it will take to end the Jets drought.

Build for 2020 and beyond.

Last year screwed our streak

[Il Mostro]

3 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Last year screwed our streak

If at first you do not succeed...

[The Crusher]

34 minutes ago, Il Mostro said:

If at first you do not succeed...

Cheat? 

[Ohio State NY Jets fan]

I think they demonstrated an attempt at creating a Winning Culture by taking a shot in the offseason, coming off a 10 win season,  Marshall and Decker believed, Fitz said he was "ascending", based on that, Mac signed Forte and a few other journeyman to take a shot, they added speed in the draft and the defense talked a big game. Wilkerson was resigned and on paper there was every reason to think they could get another year out of the core veterans; Revis, Mangold, Harris - they took a swing and missed 

Glad they took a swing but frustrated with the almost instant fail with injuries and decline of veterans, they even tried to put Geno in to change it up, and that failed too, 2016 was not meant to be, now Fitz has won a couple of garbage games and that could turn into the final fail of the season

Big question now is when they start playing to develop players and see what (QB?) they have for next year - that is really the only hope left for this season

 

[ID.]

2 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Chris Canty on the radio yesterday said that the focus should be on winning games in order to create "a winning culture" The definition of this seems to be fluid to Jets fans like myself. If the definition of winning culture has to do with championships only, then it seems almost impossible for a team to create one, especially given that only one team wins the Super Bowl every year....

To me, a "winning culture" is built through being competitive every year.  Teams like the Pats, Steelers, Green Bay, Denver.  Those teams might not win a championship every year, but you know they will more than likely get to the playoffs and do some damage.  There will be times when the miss the playoffs, but those are the outliers, not the norm.

 

To me, it starts at the top and having quality folks running the show.  Start with a buffer between the owner and GM, like a VP of football operations.  That will limit the nonsense of things like the Revis or Tebow contracts, which were engineered by Woody for publicity, above all else...

Let this person hire the GM, someone with a proven track record of filling out an organization with quality personnel and overseeing competitive teams.  The rest should fall into place.

A final, extremely important process then needs to be implemented...  Tracking progress and accountability.

Set out the goal, a five year plan, and stick through it come hell or high water.  Don't let the media or fans dictate or force deviation from this plan.

That should lay the groundwork for a "winning culture".  Sounds easy, but in real life much more difficult to achieve, especially under the microscope of the NY market.

[Jet_Engine1]

2 hours ago, Larz said:

someone needs to put this to music so it can be the jets theme song. probably rap or death metal

I would listen to that. Maybe Ex Mortis could cover it.

[varjet]

2 hours ago, ID. said:

To me, a "winning culture" is built through being competitive every year.  Teams like the Pats, Steelers, Green Bay, Denver.  Those teams might not win a championship every year, but you know they will more than likely get to the playoffs and do some damage.  There will be times when the miss the playoffs, but those are the outliers, not the norm.

 

To me, it starts at the top and having quality folks running the show.  Start with a buffer between the owner and GM, like a VP of football operations.  That will limit the nonsense of things like the Revis or Tebow contracts, which were engineered by Woody for publicity, above all else...

Let this person hire the GM, someone with a proven track record of filling out an organization with quality personnel and overseeing competitive teams.  The rest should fall into place.

A final, extremely important process then needs to be implemented...  Tracking progress and accountability.

Set out the goal, a five year plan, and stick through it come hell or high water.  Don't let the media or fans dictate or force deviation from this plan.

That should lay the groundwork for a "winning culture".  Sounds easy, but in real life much more difficult to achieve, especially under the microscope of the NY market.

Brilliant post.  I believe this 100%.

Macc needs to get on a long-term plan.  Last off season there were some moves I would take back.  For one, I think they thought Darron Lee was the missing piece, when many other pieces were missing.  

Build the OL and develop a qb.  The one position group I would pay veterans for is the OL until we find a QB.   Then the other pieces can be filled.  

Jarvis Jenkins?  Says it all to me. 

[j4jets]

Ray Lewis is a "quality person"? 

[southparkcpa]

15 hours ago, ID. said:

To me, a "winning culture" is built through being competitive every year.  Teams like the Pats, Steelers, Green Bay, Denver.  Those teams might not win a championship every year, but you know they will more than likely get to the playoffs and do some damage.  There will be times when the miss the playoffs, but those are the outliers, not the norm.

 

To me, it starts at the top and having quality folks running the show.  Start with a buffer between the owner and GM, like a VP of football operations.  That will limit the nonsense of things like the Revis or Tebow contracts, which were engineered by Woody for publicity, above all else...

Let this person hire the GM, someone with a proven track record of filling out an organization with quality personnel and overseeing competitive teams.  The rest should fall into place.

A final, extremely important process then needs to be implemented...  Tracking progress and accountability.

Set out the goal, a five year plan, and stick through it come hell or high water.  Don't let the media or fans dictate or force deviation from this plan.

That should lay the groundwork for a "winning culture".  Sounds easy, but in real life much more difficult to achieve, especially under the microscope of the NY market.

This is EXACTLY right.  Winning teams like GB, Pats, Giants, Steelers and even the Ravens have won over 25 to 40 years for a reason. Its not the players, its the way players are selected, drafted, developed.  Management is key..not players.

Yes..a Tom Brady is nice but lets face it..the Pats have had the BALLS to show the door to top players who no longer fit the scheme.  They built through 2nd and 5th round picks.  We could have drafted Gronk, but we drafted a developmental Kyle Wilson. MANAGEMANT, PLAN all lack in the NY JETS world.

 

 

 

[UnitedWhofans]

45 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

This is EXACTLY right.  Winning teams like GB, Pats, Giants, Steelers and even the Ravens have won over 25 to 40 years for a reason. Its not the players, its the way players are selected, drafted, developed.  Management is key..not players.

Yes..a Tom Brady is nice but lets face it..the Pats have had the BALLS to show the door to top players who no longer fit the scheme.  They built through 2nd and 5th round picks.  We could have drafted Gronk, but we drafted a developmental Kyle Wilson. MANAGEMANT, PLAN all lack in the NY JETS world.

 

 

 

Pats dont belong on this list yet. Prior to Brady and Belichick, they were a mediocre franchise as well

[Larz]

3 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Pats dont belong on this list yet. Prior to Brady and Belichick, they were a mediocre franchise as well

good 1st round QB = good owner, coach and GM

good 6th round QB = ernie adams

[Ex-Rex]

20 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Chris Canty on the radio yesterday said that the focus should be on winning games in order to create "a winning culture" The definition of this seems to be fluid to Jets fans like myself. If the definition of winning culture has to do with championships only, then it seems almost impossible for a team to create one, especially given that only one team wins the Super Bowl every year.

So the other definition is to string together winning/competitive seasons, which if the case, then trying to win these games is a definite option. The only way that Bowles should play Petty is to have a guarantee that his job is safe. Why should he play the mystery if his job is not safe?

Which brings me to leadership. This team has no leadership players. Wilkerson and Mangold, should be but they are not the personalities that Ray Lewis had or Walter Payton. The Jets need a player with this type of personality. A take charge person. A quality person.

And speaking of quality, it could be said very fairly that coming into this season, 3-5 or 4-4 is where the Jets were expected to be given their schedule. They have beaten all the teams that they were supposed to beat and lost to all the teams they should have lost to. The Bengals game and the failure of Folk in that game is the difference between 3 and 4 wins.

Which is why I think most people are just angry because of the way they have played, the quality. Supporting that notion is the simple fact that despite winning 2 games in a row, people have had very little positive to say. This type of attitude should logically be held for a team with actual expectations or a past of quality, like the Yankees in baseball, instead of a struggling franchise trying to rebuild. As least that's how I see it. I would wish that somebody would explain to to me why they consider the opposite to be true.

I don't. I have said in other threads that I think the Jets will be 5-5 at the break with a four game win streak. I don't think they make the playoffs however because they cannot beat the Patriots and I think either Miami, Buffalo or both will win one against the Jets. That leaves SF, and Indy as possible second half wins. That would mean at best 8-8 or likely 7-9. They have no one to blame but themselves as I saw plays taken off, mental mistakes lead to big plays and just a lack of overall "self confidence" against the so-called big boys. I am not down on the coaches or GM right now. I prefer to stay the course and let go of some overpriced and ineffective veterans and have a great next draft.

[southparkcpa]

1 hour ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Pats dont belong on this list yet. Prior to Brady and Belichick, they were a mediocre franchise as well

They went to the SB in 1985 and 1995 while we were stroking ourselves..... their moves the last 15 years show active management not influenced by fans or an egotistical owner.   

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, southparkcpa said:

They went to the SB in 1985 and 1995 while we were stroking ourselves..... their moves the last 15 years show active management not influenced by fans or an egotistical owner.   

And got destroyed in both. Especially in 1985. Congratulations, you are a less successful version of the Buffalo Bills.

[Jetster]

None of us coming into this year expected Fitz, Revis, Skrine, Mo, to play so poorly. I didn't expect to lose Decker for the entire year. We lost Khiry Robinson & had no back up plan for a short yardage power back. Our TEs are easily the WORST in the league. Macc couldn't fix this mess in 2 drafts, especially without a franchise QB. He's taken Petty, Hackenberg so far & I expect him to go after someone like Glennon or even Garapolo, to find a QB, or draft another one.

We have to rebuild the Oline, you never know, Wesley Johnson might take Mangolds job? That would be a huge bonus if that happens. We already have some young LBs that just need more experience. 

Corner back is also a concern, but finding some pass rushers usually helps in that regard. I'm thinking at least 2 more drafts & free agency, UDFAs, to turn the Jets fortunes around. That puts us in 2019 season, Brady will be going on 42 years old!

That should be this regimes goal. Rebuild this team! Revis? Gone, Harris? Gone, Clady? Gone, Mangold? Gone, Marshall? Gone, Skrine? Gone, Gilchrist? Gone, Forte? Gone. 

None of these players are LEADERS, except Harris who is done as an NFL player. Pray that Hackenberg turns out to be a franchise QB! In 2019 he would be in his PRIME at 24 years old with 10-15 year career ahead of him. I actually believe Macc knows this, he's a very intelligent guy. He's been given a tough assignment, stay competitive without a franchise QB.

As pissed as I've been with Bowles, I do understand continuity wins games. If Gailey retires stick with his protege & keep the offensive system. Bowles has been a successful DC so I think he can develop young players. Lee, Jenkins, Stanford, Burris are a nice start. I'm sure we'll find one guy on the practice squad now who will be a Jet, maybe Middleton or Martin at safety to replace Gilchrist. Keep building Macc, I'm supporting you!

 

[Integrity28]

20 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Dude, the preferred nomenclature is learning how to win.

Right? This isn't 2009. Come on you guys!

[NorthCoastJetsFan]

8 hours ago, southparkcpa said:

This is EXACTLY right.  Winning teams like GB, Pats, Giants, Steelers and even the Ravens have won over 25 to 40 years for a reason. Its not the players, its the way players are selected, drafted, developed.  Management is key..not players.

Yes..a Tom Brady is nice but lets face it..the Pats have had the BALLS to show the door to top players who no longer fit the scheme.  They built through 2nd and 5th round picks.  We could have drafted Gronk, but we drafted a developmental Kyle Wilson. MANAGEMANT, PLAN all lack in the NY JETS world.

 

 

 

Wow. I guess having Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Roethlisberger and Flacco has nothing to do with winning.

You don't win in this league without a franchise QB. Period. 

[Larz]

bowles is a nice guy, just not HC material

he is in way over his head and the team treats him like the substitute teacher

 

[southparkcpa]

10 minutes ago, NorthCoastJetsFan said:

Wow. I guess having Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Roethlisberger and Flacco has nothing to do with winning.

You don't win in this league without a franchise QB. Period. 

Those QBs were all drafted by teams with a solid front office.  Those teams have a track record of winning well before those players arrived.  Of course your point is well taken but....