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MacCagnan's valuation history of the QB position


Integrity28
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20 minutes ago, Jetscreen said:

Were you planning on answering my question?

Is there a player that jumps off the page at me? - Short answer, not really but that gets away from the point of my post. My point is the logic behind a selection while Rex was the HC was severely flawed. You can hate the picks Macc has made but the though process behind our 1st and 2nd round picks seems sound. (outside of Hack)

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5 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

I hear you and you are right but this team was so devoid of young talent when Mac got here I think taking the top player in each draft regardless of position was not a terrible move. Given the amount of busts we had prior we really just needed to hit on some talent. I didn't think he passed on a LT, CB, or Edge that would have made a huge difference. QB you could certainly argue Watson and Mahomes but I think we wanted to try our first big investment at QB before drafting another QB high. With how many QB needy teams passed on both players it doesn't seem like GMs were overly fond of either prospect last year.

I think this is the offseason that needs to be judged more harshly than any of the 3 that came before it. We have aligned ourselves perfectly to answer the biggest position of the field and if he hits on the QB this team will look a lot better.

I can give him a pass on drafting Leo Will.  A five-technique is an ancillary position, a run defender and a secondary pass-rushing position, but still part of the defensive line; and if that five-technique is a good one like Leonard Williams, he's still collapsing the pocket every third down.  

Last year was the bad one.  Last year's draft was the one where Mac truly lost me.  The Darron Lee year, well, there honestly wasn't much in the way of premium position players at our pick - although we picked Darron Lee just ahead of Will Fuller which doesn't look good.

But selecting Jamal Adams, a strong safety, at 6 ahead of two potential quarterbacks and what looks to be the next great shutdown corner in Marshon Lattimore, was terrible. 

Take a look at the entirety of that first round, it looks like a good one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_NFL_Draft

OT Ryan Ramczyk, Edge TJ Watt, CB Tre'Davious White all had very, very good seasons and theoretically could've been available on a trade-down.  

Where we agree is that this year is truly make-or-break... I would've hoped last-years'-offseason was the breaking point for Mac, and he and Bowles were fired after this past year, but that wasn't the case.  

If he finds a franchise quarterback, a lot can be forgiven.  

BTW we haven't even discussed Mac's later round picks or the wisdom of drafting safeties back-to-back in at 6 & 39...  

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1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

Stephen Hill was a "workout warrior" yet he had more catches, yards and TDs as a rookie than Stewart, Hansen and Peake had combined last year.

The thing is, you have to actually play to have stats.  And since the entire jet offense is veteran cast offs from other teams, bowles makes these guys earn playing time while the defensive draft picks are granted it.

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7 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Is there a player that jumps off the page at me? - Short answer, not really but that gets away from the point of my post. My point is the logic behind a selection while Rex was the HC was severely flawed. You can hate the picks Macc has made but the though process behind our 1st and 2nd round picks seems sound. (outside of Hack)

So you blame the coach for the picks?  Milliner never missed any games in college.  Wilson was a decent enough slot CB, if not worth his draft position.  They supposedly liked Irvin better than Coples, but panicked that they needed the position. Why do I give a **** about any of that?  Draft guys that can play or get fired.  The guys you are comparing Maccagnan's picks to were fired.  They were rightfully fired for their poor drafts.  Maccagnan's drafts have not been significantly better, yet here we sit with him picking at #6 for the 3rd time in 4 years and ready to spend a sh*tload of salary cap for the 2nd time in 4 years.  

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5 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

The thing is, you have to actually play to have stats.  And since the entire jet offense is veteran cast offs from other teams, bowles makes these guys earn playing time while the defensive draft picks are granted it.

Hansen played over 30% of the offensive snaps, yet Kerley, who played less, had significantly better stats.  Bowles isn't going to play Hansen, Stewart and Peake because vets?  How the **** is Robby Anderson getting run then? He was an UDFA the same year as Peake and he played plenty.  Too bad that veteran cast-off was holding them down.  I dislike Bowles as much as the next guy, but the more likely  reason they don't produce is because they suck.

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2 hours ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Simply not true. He's made good picks. Williams is a good player, Adams is a good player, Anderson was a very good UDFA signing, McGuire looked good, Shell has potential to be a piece on the line. We'll see about Maye and some of the other guys in last years draft.

The team is low on talent because we are weak at some of the most crucial positions. No QB, no LT, no CB's, no pass rush. Those have to be addressed. But to say the Jets have no talent across the board is an inaccurate statement. And i'm not saying they have a ton of talent on the roster either. But i'm willing to give him one more off season after he completely gutted the roster to try and build it up.

Finding decent players at low-value positions with premium picks is not good drafting.  It's just minimizing your chances of busting in round 1 while not doing anything to meaningfully improve your chances of winning.  Anderson was a good UDFA signing, or at least he looked that way until we learned why a dude with his talent was an UDFA.  So, not exactly a huge win there.  The other guys you mentioned are on the roster, but that's about all you can say about them.

"The team is low on talent because we are week at some of the most crucial positions."  YES!  Exactly.  In 3 years, they haven't been addressed by the guy who's job it is to address them, and by the guy who you're defending here.  Seriously, your argument is basically, "Sure, there's no QB, no LT, no CB, no pass rush, but we have a SS who looks like he might be decent!"  And, it's incomprehensible why anyone is treating this upcoming season as if it were year 2...

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3 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

I can give him a pass on drafting Leo Will.  A five-technique is an ancillary position, a run defender and a secondary pass-rushing position, but still part of the defensive line; and if that five-technique is a good one like Leonard Williams, he's still collapsing the pocket every third down.  

Last year was the bad one.  Last year's draft was the one where Mac truly lost me.  The Darron Lee year, well, there honestly wasn't much in the way of premium position players at our pick - although we picked Darron Lee just ahead of Will Fuller which doesn't look good.

But selecting Jamal Adams, a strong safety, at 6 ahead of two potential quarterbacks and what looks to be the next great shutdown corner in Marshon Lattimore, was terrible. 

Take a look at the entirety of that first round, it looks like a good one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_NFL_Draft

OT Ryan Ramczyk, Edge TJ Watt, CB Tre'Davious White all had very, very good seasons and theoretically could've been available on a trade-down.  

Where we agree is that this year is truly make-or-break... I would've hoped last-years'-offseason was the breaking point for Mac, and he and Bowles were fired after this past year, but that wasn't the case.  

If he finds a franchise quarterback, a lot can be forgiven.  

BTW we haven't even discussed Mac's later round picks or the wisdom of drafting safeties back-to-back in at 6 & 39...  

We were so slow in 2015 at LB, I can't fault him for taking the fastest LB in the draft from the best defense in college. I think hindsight hurts that pick more than anything else. We had 2 LTs and Shell before last draft, I don't think Tackle was going to be an option no matter how we slice it, much like if we sign 2 FA CBs I don't think CB will be looked at early. TJ Watt was taken at pick 30, it would seem unreasonable to think he'd be in play at #6. I'd have been fine taking a CB last year over Adams but I think there was a clear message that needed to be sent to this team about the type of personality we want. I'm not saying take Tim Tebow in the first but Adams is a Swiss army knife in our backfield he can play every position well and a vocal leader on a team that sorely needed leadership. I'm not supporting the 2 safeties back to back but they both look to be good players so I can't fault the selection especially given the mess that position has been since Kerry Rhodes left.

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1 minute ago, bla bla bla said:

We were so slow in 2015 at LB, I can't fault him for taking the fastest LB in the draft from the best defense in college. I think hindsight hurts that pick more than anything else. We had 2 LTs and Shell before last draft, I don't think Tackle was going to be an option no matter how we slice it, much like if we sign 2 FA CBs I don't think CB will be looked at early. TJ Watt was taken at pick 30, it would seem unreasonable to think he'd be in play at #6. I'd have been fine taking a CB last year over Adams but I think there was a clear message that needed to be sent to this team about the type of personality we want. I'm not saying take Tim Tebow in the first but Adams is a Swiss army knife in our backfield he can play every position well and a vocal leader on a team that sorely needed leadership. I'm not supporting the 2 safeties back to back but they both look to be good players so I can't fault the selection especially given the mess that position has been since Kerry Rhodes left.

It shouldnt be. If you're picking at 6 and not drafting a QB, pass rusher should be the selection. 

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8 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

So you blame the coach for the picks?  Milliner never missed any games in college.  Wilson was a decent enough slot CB, if not worth his draft position.  They supposedly liked Irvin better than Coples, but panicked that they needed the position. Why do I give a **** about any of that?  Draft guys that can play or get fired.  The guys you are comparing Maccagnan's picks to were fired.  They were rightfully fired for their poor drafts.  Maccagnan's drafts have not been significantly better, yet here we sit with him picking at #6 for the 3rd time in 4 years and ready to spend a sh*tload of salary cap for the 2nd time in 4 years.  

No no no not at all. I blame late stage Tanny and Idzik for those picks, saying under Rex just covers that time period.

Milliner never missed time but the dude needed 5 surgeries in college, that is a huge red flag for me. I'm not sure if you read my initial post because I am merely saying how barren this team was when Macc got here. I am not defending his selections, if he doesn't field a competent team this year I'll fire up the billboard thread.

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3 hours ago, JiF said:

2015 Executive of the Year, baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's actually astounding that he was given that award, then 18 months after all the transactions he was lauded for, the majority of them were useless to the team. He literally had enough cap to build a 5 year contender, and he couldn't missed worse if it were the 2nd round and he had Hack written on his card.

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Just now, bla bla bla said:

No no no not at all. I blame late stage Tanny and Idzik for those picks, saying under Rex just covers that time period.

Milliner never missed time but the dude needed 5 surgeries in college, that is a huge red flag for me. I'm not sure if you read my initial post because I am merely saying how barren this team was when Macc got here. I am not defending his selections, if he doesn't field a competent team this year I'll fire up the billboard thread.

You see barren.  I see clean slate.  The guy had a clean slate and three years later people are praising him for having a clean slate, well except for the millions in dead money...

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3 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

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Leo - Best play in draft, had Sheldon who was getting in trouble and Mo who wouldn't agree to a LTD

Smith - Geno had a big arm, Smith was the type of player that would take advantage of that. Geno got knocked out and then Smith tore his ACL after not having an injury history.

Lee - Our LBs might have been the slowest unit in 2015, we went out and got the fastest LB from the best defense in the country.

Hack - As I said this is the pick that hurts

Adams - We had an unproven Hack already if we didn't believe in Watson or Mahomes then it seems to reason that upgrading a terrible secondary with selecting a player most deemed to be a great locker room presence makes sense.

Maye - I wanted Kevin King who the packers traded up infront of us for or Dalvin Cook but with his personality issues I don't think he was even on our board.

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6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

You see barren.  I see clean slate.  The guy had a clean slate and three years later people are praising him for having a clean slate, well except for the millions in dead money...

Yea clean slate fine but not having any of those previous players stick hurts you fielding a team no matter how you slice it.

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2 hours ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Fine. But you have to let these players develop first and see what they are. Adams was considered by many people to be the best player in the draft. I had no problem with that pick and still don't.

You are missing the point. You can get a decent safety late in the draft or in FA. QB, doesn't happen. Defense under these rules as enforced, except for edge rushers like the Iggles have, simply isn't that important. Longer the play and game go on, more likely the defense goes into disarray and the offense makes  a play.If there's no pass rush, the receivers are going to get open. This is lost on a braindread "establish the run" moron like Todd Bowles, but I digress. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SHUTDOWN DEFENSE IN THE 2018 NFL. The best you could hope for is getting a decent pass rush going and limit the damage or make a game-changing play.  And definitely not nearly as important as a QB or edge or LT. 

And these "many people" are idiots who should not be employed by NFL teams in any capacity. They are scared, pussified bags of sheet, many who have been running the Jets since the day Mangini got canned. 

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3 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Pass Rusher at 6 would have been ideal but I don't think any team had Watt near the top of their board especially that early. 

If not pass rusher- then corner. Lattimore was there too. If they sign Cousins the pick should either be a pass rusher or Ward from Ohio State. 

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8 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Never mind the insurmountable evidence that Rex influenced player selection heavily. 

I wasn't going to touch this but I'm thoroughly convinced Rex pushed for John Connor, Stephen Hill, Tajh Boyd, and Calvin Pryor because "Man look at these guys" I think the Ducasse pick was 100% on Tanny though. Ultimately falls to the GM even though I agree with you.

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37 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Some of the OP criticisms aren't really valid (thank GOD he didn't trade the farm for Goff because if he were our QB he'd look like he did as a rookie and not they way he did last year) but the overall point that Maccagnan has been dreadful at QB evaluation stands. Frankly, there just isn't much compelling evidence that Mac and Bowles deserved their extensions and probably should have been fired.

Oh well. Let's hope they don't screw this up.

So you're telling me our coach cannot be expected to develop a QB? Why is he still here at all then? 

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1 minute ago, Matt39 said:

Someone explain the rationale behind Jamal Adams being the best player in the draft? Who thought that and why?

This is a good question, how these things germinate. Nothing about Adams’ college performance indicated that he was ever going to be a difference making player.

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Just now, T0mShane said:

This is a good question, how these things germinate. Nothing about Adams’ college performance indicated that he was ever going to be a difference making player.

Could they just be jokers that get stacked into the deck to fool stupid teams? I'm leaning towards yes.

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Just now, Bugg said:

So you're telling me our coach cannot be expected to develop a QB? Why is he still here at all then? 

In my very post I said:

"Frankly, there just isn't much compelling evidence that Mac and Bowles deserved their extensions and probably should have been fired."

So long story short, I don't know why he's here. Presumably because Woody Johnson's brother liked the "positivity" coming from the locker room.

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1 minute ago, bla bla bla said:

I wasn't going to touch this but I'm thoroughly convinced Rex pushed for John Connor, Stephen Hill, Tajh Boyd, and Calvin Pryor because "Man look at these guys" I think the Ducasse pick was 100% on Tanny though. Ultimately falls to the GM even though I agree with you.

Ultimately, it is both of their responsibility - and people who polarize this argument into being one or the other are usually worker bees. (Not saying you are doing that.)

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Just now, Matt39 said:

Could they just be jokers that get stacked into the deck to fool stupid teams? I'm leaning towards yes.

It could be, right? I mean, bad teams are always at the top of the draft and their organizational structures are usually a mess, so if you’re a good team with a mid-first pick, why not fluff a couple of sh*tty players you’d never draft yourself? It happened with DRob, as I recall. Bradway panicked because he allegedly heard Belichick loved him.

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2 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Yea clean slate fine but not having any of those previous players stick hurts you fielding a team no matter how you slice it.

It really doesn't.  He has had more opportunities to add players that will be here for the long haul, yet has added few. What players has he brought on board that you want here in 2020?   IMO, Williams, Jenkins, Adams, Maye - maybe Shell.  Anderson was one of his hits and he is a guy people are screaming they should cut ASAP.  Same with Erin Henderson and Marshall.  They looked like nice pickups, but one is a locker room destroyer and the other is suing the team.  That is it, despite having a full 53 to fill.  Carpenter and Winters are okay deals. Hurray!

Now contrast that with the resources that he has squandered on guys that didn't last their contract - Revis, Fitzpatrick, Skrine, Wilkerson, Gilchrist.  Who was worth their deal? He gave Cromartie $8M when the guy was playing on a 1/$3M deal.  Why the raise? Ijalana and Powell tested FA, bombed and came back on one year deals.  Why did either of them get real money?  If anybody else was going to pay them they would have done it in 2016.

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38 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Is there a player that jumps off the page at me? - Short answer, not really but that gets away from the point of my post. My point is the logic behind a selection while Rex was the HC was severely flawed. You can hate the picks Macc has made but the though process behind our 1st and 2nd round picks seems sound. (outside of Hack)

I've already admitted that the draft picks have been better under Mac than they were under Idzik or Tanny. Stop going on about the past, that's ancient history. Everyone is so willing to blame every one of their problems on a past HC and a past GM. When does Mac start taking responsibility for his own mistakes?

I'm not debating the thought process behind taking X player, what I am saying is that the results have still been very underwhelming. This is NOT the way to build a contender. The Jets team is floundering as a 5-11 team. Mac's job is to make the Jets SB winners. 3 years into his tenure the team is still every bit as bad as they were under John Idzik.

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1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

It could be, right? I mean, bad teams are always at the top of the draft and their organizational structures are usually a mess, so if you’re a good team with a mid-first pick, why not fluff a couple of sh*tty players you’d never draft yourself? It happened with DRob, as I recall. Bradway panicked because he allegedly heard Belichick loved him.

Fitzpatrick feels like this type of guy.

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4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

It could be, right? I mean, bad teams are always at the top of the draft and their organizational structures are usually a mess, so if you’re a good team with a mid-first pick, why not fluff a couple of sh*tty players you’d never draft yourself? It happened with DRob, as I recall. Bradway panicked because he allegedly heard Belichick loved him.

The good teams generate fake news in hopes that mediocre players get over-drafted early, thus pushing good players down further to them?

NO THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN.

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