MacCagnan's valuation history of the QB position

[T0mShane]

9 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

That's fine. But I just don't see the path he could have taken. This is his 4th season. I'm not saying give him forever to find a guy. I just think 3 years is a small window to give a GM.

He’s had four years and he walked into the job with $80 mil in cap space. He wasn’t tasked with being semi-competitive every year, he was tasked, as are all GM’s, with producing a Super Bowl contender. That starts with finding a QB. He hasn’t come close.

[Bugg]

4 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Fair. But I don't think Macc ever thought that Fitz was his longterm answer at QB. After his first year the negotiations with Fitz took forever. Probably because the Jets were offering him a short term contract. I don't think it's fair to say Macc thought Fitz was his guy. He definitely didn't think he was. I think if anything, he thought he was good enough to hold the fort until they could find their guy in the draft. He brought him in initially as a backup QB to Geno.

In the short time he played Watson was clearly a superior QB, while with Mahomes there's too small a sample to say. What we can say though is Adams is ...okay at best, Lee gets blow up by 40 year old men. This is a better alternative? There's a cowardice at the core of how the Jets have drafted.So instead they'll try to make a big splash with Cousins, but not kick the tires on Foles. And take MInka. 

No QB; no LT; no edge guy. Hos does that even happen? 

[Integrity28]

39 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

My point is he hasn't really had a legit chance to land a franchise caliber QB. He's got one this off season.

It’s gems like this that make these threads necessary.

[Larz]

13 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

He's had three offseasons to improve this team. 

We have no players at premium positions.  We have no quarterback, no edge-rusher, no cornerback and no offensive tackle.  

He could've had Mahomes or Lattimore last year, or he could've traded down, acquired another first rounder for this year (the year with all the quarterbacks), and taken TJ Watt or Ryan Ramczyk or Tre'Davious White.  

I think every 21st century GM should be graded on how they address those four positions: QB, O-tackle, Edge-Rusher & Cornerback.  Nearly every other position on the field is surplus.  

I agree with this. He is right back to where he started, lots of cap room and no talent 

[T0mShane]

14 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Fair. But I don't think Macc ever thought that Fitz was his longterm answer at QB. After his first year the negotiations with Fitz took forever. Probably because the Jets were offering him a short term contract. I don't think it's fair to say Macc thought Fitz was his guy. He definitely didn't think he was. I think if anything, he thought he was good enough to hold the fort until they could find their guy in the draft. He brought him in initially as a backup QB to Geno.

Macc should have planted his feet in the ground and forced Todd to go into the season with Petty and Hackenberg. Instead, he was beclowned by Ryan Fitzpatrick all the way through June, at which point he bid against himself to placate his loser head coach and malcontent locker room. A collosal display of organizational weakness and ineptitude.

[Bugg]

3 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

It’s gems like this that make these threads necessary.

Could've dealt up for Wentz; didn't do it. 

Passed on Dax repeatedly. granted, Cowboys with a great OL and solid RB and TE are really ideal, but Prescott would be better than any QB the Jets have had the entire time Coffee Boy has run the draft. 

Watson and Mahomes on the board, didn't take them.

 

 

[RedBeardedSavage]

5 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

He gutted the roster last off season though. He's drafted Williams and Adams in the first round and both picks look good. Lee has been up and down. They weren't going to spend money last off season, they went with a young cheap roster. This off season they are going to spend money and hopefully with 3 picks in the first 2 rounds will be adding a lot of talent to the roster. If they don't, then he should be fired.

3

That's my point, though.  He drafts like he's scared to lose.  

I don't hate the Leo Will pick, he's clearly a good player, but when was the last time a 3-4 DE won you a game?  How about a strong safety?  

You can't expect to win spending first round capital on 3-4 DE's, Strong Safeties and Inside-Linebackers - other teams like the Eagles, as @nycdan has already pointed out, draft premium positions and are rewarded for it.  

If the modern NFL game is built around passing, what does a 3-4 DE, an ILB and a SS do for you?  Those are all arguably run-first defensive positions!  Whereas cornerback, edge-rushers and free safeties are clearly all pass-first defenders. 

Not to mention, with the rules being as they are now, defense is overvalued anyway.  You're better off building a team that can score a lot and can rush the passer as opposed to some theoretical suffocating defense that will just get penalized (because defenses operate under draconian rules currently - you can't touch receivers before they catch it and if you hit them too hard while or after they catch it, you're penalized). 

A smart GM would understand the game he's in and implement a strategy that reflects this.  He'd spend first rounders on quarterbacks, protecting his quarterback, killing the opposing teams' quarterbacks and eliminating places for the opposing quarterback to throw.  

[Jetsplayer21]

Let’s talk about jets history of qb. Whenever we pay a qb a decent amount of $$, they either get hurt or become a bust. Chad, farve, Sanchez, fitz, McCown. You can prob go back further. Name a qb we paid, that played up to his contract ? ?

[CotcheryifyouCan]

the hack pick along with fitz holding the franchise hostage will end both these guys career. i hope im wrong and they knock it out of the park this offseason, but those two moves will live in infamy 

[Beerfish]

He likes strong armed pocket guys hack tom savage etc.

His issue since David carr....go get the q b and fing ignore the oline because i can get olineman in the 5th round

[ScarletKnight89]

40 minutes ago, Bugg said:

In the short time he played Watson was clearly a superior QB, while with Mahomes there's too small a sample to say. What we can say though is Adams is ...okay at best, Lee gets blow up by 40 year old men. This is a better alternative? There's a cowardice at the core of how the Jets have drafted.So instead they'll try to make a big splash with Cousins, but not kick the tires on Foles. And take MInka. 

No QB; no LT; no edge guy. Hos does that even happen? 

Adams played really well down the stretch of the season. To say he's ok at best isn't fair. Lets see how he plays going forward. Watson looked awesome but he got hurt. If Mahomes and/or Watson go on to put up big seasons then Macc did a bad job in that draft (assuming he doesn't find a QB this off season).

[ScarletKnight89]

42 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

It’s gems like this that make these threads necessary.

Oh ok. That's right I forgot, there were so many trades that he could have made....

I love the old "he should have traded up for this guy" line as if we even know if that was possible or whether or not he tried.

[ScarletKnight89]

43 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Macc should have planted his feet in the ground and forced Todd to go into the season with Petty and Hackenberg. Instead, he was beclowned by Ryan Fitzpatrick all the way through June, at which point he bid against himself to placate his loser head coach and malcontent locker room. A collosal display of organizational weakness and ineptitude.

I agree with that for 2017 but for 2016? Coming off of a 10 win season with a veteran roster? A soft 10 wins or not he had to bring back Fitz or get someone better to be the QB. You can't hand the job over to a 4th round QB with zero game reps or a 2nd round rookie who clearly wasn't turning heads in camp. 

[Charlie Brown]

The only thing that can save Mac's legacy is if Hackenberg is really somehow a hidden gem or he gets a quality QB this off season, if not he is toast.

[ZachEY]

2 hours ago, nycdan said:

While most teams use their premium picks for premium positions like QB and pass rusher and try to find late-round starters at OG, S, DT and ILB, we do the opposite.  That is Macc's strategy, following on the heels of it being Idzik's strategy. 

Just for comparison, PHI's last 5 1st round picks were DE, QB, WR, DE, LT.  Ours were S, ILB, DT, S, DT. 

Yay Jets.  

Yeah, but what has Philly been able to do without Jamal Adam's leadership?

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Whose the guy that Macc has missed out on who he should have drafted/signed?

In 2015 it wasn't an off season where the Jets were in a position to land a franchise caliber QB. Winston and Mariota went 1 and 2. He traded a conditional pick for Fitz (good move) and drafted a project in the 4th round in Petty. 4th round QBs very rarely work out. It was a low risk low reward move. But he got a veteran QB for nothing who had a great season for us.

In 2016 he brought back Fitz who was coming off of a 10 win season and a career year and drafted a project in the second round. That was a terrible pick but it was one pick. There was nobody else for the Jets to bring back besides Fitz in FA.

Last year again, whose the guy they should have drafted? Mahomes or Watson? We'll see how their careers develop. He made a smart move by not paying for a guy like Glennon or Cutler. Signed McCown to a team friendly contract and hoped Hack would develop. It was a bad pick. They do happen.

My point is he hasn't really had a legit chance to land a franchise caliber QB. He's got one this off season.

"That was a terrible pick but it was one pick" is what you say about someone who has also made good picks.

[jgb]

15 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Oh ok. That's right I forgot, there were so many trades that he could have made....

I love the old "he should have traded up for this guy" line as if we even know if that was possible or whether or not he tried.

It's even more basic than that. As GM your job is to get a QB. If you fail, you fail. Excuses don't matter in a results-based business.

But beside the QB point, he burned $80 million his first year and look where we are now. That's a fireable offense.

[Pac]

Philly was a dumpster fire before Wentz got there but suddenly they're the model NFL franchise.  Laughable.

Macc tried to trade up for Wentz and was outbid.  It happens.

But lets keep pretending that Macc has passed on multiple franchise QB's because Watson had a couple good games and Dak looks great when Zeke plays.  Makes for good forum fodder.

[Bugg]

42 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Adams played really well down the stretch of the season. To say he's ok at best isn't fair. Lets see how he plays going forward. Watson looked awesome but he got hurt. If Mahomes and/or Watson go on to put up big seasons then Macc did a bad job in that draft (assuming he doesn't find a QB this off season).

He's a safety, and not an All World gaming changing one at that.  Taking a safety over and edge like Watt or a QB like Watson or Mahomes is criminal mismanagement. 

[Villain The Foe]

3 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

2015

• early round QBs were trash, but in the 4th round for some bizarre reason Mac saw fit to use draft capital to trade-up for Bryce Petty, who has subsequently been setup to fail since day 1
• also gave up draft capital for Ryan Fitzpatrick, who despite his lucky season, was and is a trash QB

2016 

• allowed Fitzpatrick and the offense to manipulate him into grossly over-paying for Fitz to return
• drafted a broken Hack with the 2nd round pick, but...
• refused to give up draft capital to trade up for Goff or Wentz
• ignored college results and leadership qualities and passed on guys like Brissett and Prescott, who were drafted well after Hack

2017

• paid good FA money for Josh McCown, who like Fitz is a career loser
• elected to pass on Mahomes and Watson, guys who offensive-minded coaches traded up to get and who will walk into next season as unquestioned starting QBs
• didn't get Petty or Hack on the field for any valuable snaps all season

2018

• about to lose out on Kirk Cousins, even though the Vikings will pay him less, because the state of the Jets in Mac's tenure is even worse than Idzik

 

Discuss...

I applaud you. 

[Villain The Foe]

3 hours ago, Gen X Jet said:

Who's the Jets' QB coach?

If im correct our OC is also the QB coach. 

[RedBeardedSavage]

1 hour ago, Pac said:

Philly was a dumpster fire before Wentz got there but suddenly they're the model NFL franchise.  Laughable.

Macc tried to trade up for Wentz and was outbid.  It happens.

But lets keep pretending that Macc has passed on multiple franchise QB's because Watson had a couple good games and Dak looks great when Zeke plays.  Makes for good forum fodder.

Even before Wentz got there they drafted offensive lineman and pass rushers on the reg. 

Look at their first rounders since 09:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Philadelphia_Eagles_first-round_draft_picks

They didn't all hit.  But they took the important positions. 

Brandon Graham sacked Brady and forced a fumble (he has 16 FF in his career btw), Derek Barnett (last years rookie) recovered it and that sealed the Super Bowl victory.  

They won because they had good quarterback play, an elite offensive line, and a formidable pass rush. 

Funny that their draft history since 09 reflects those priorities to a T.  

[nycdan]

2 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

That's my point, though.  He drafts like he's scared to lose.  

I don't hate the Leo Will pick, he's clearly a good player, but when was the last time a 3-4 DE won you a game?  How about a strong safety?  

You can't expect to win spending first round capital on 3-4 DE's, Strong Safeties and Inside-Linebackers - other teams like the Eagles, as @nycdan has already pointed out, draft premium positions and are rewarded for it.  

If the modern NFL game is built around passing, what does a 3-4 DE, an ILB and a SS do for you?  Those are all arguably run-first defensive positions!  Whereas cornerback, edge-rushers and free safeties are clearly all pass-first defenders. 

Not to mention, with the rules being as they are now, defense is overvalued anyway.  You're better off building a team that can score a lot and can rush the passer as opposed to some theoretical suffocating defense that will just get penalized (because defenses operate under draconian rules currently - you can't touch receivers before they catch it and if you hit them too hard while or after they catch it, you're penalized). 

A smart GM would understand the game he's in and implement a strategy that reflects this.  He'd spend first rounders on quarterbacks, protecting his quarterback, killing the opposing teams' quarterbacks and eliminating places for the opposing quarterback to throw.  

Now here's the kicker.  And @dbatesman if you physically recoiled from my last post, then strap yourself in.  

As I suggested earlier and you clearly pointed out, we drafted all middle/run defense.  DT, DT, S, S, ILB.  The Eagles drafted offense and edge/pass defense.

So now let's look at 2017 team rushing defense stats.  Seriously, if you are not sitting down comfortably, do so.

Okay..here we go.

PHI - allowed 79.2 ypg avg.  1st in NFL

NYJ - allowed 117.9 ypg avg. 24th in NFL 

I...have....no....words.

[RedBeardedSavage]

2 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Now here's the kicker.  And @dbatesman if you physically recoiled from my last post, then strap yourself in.  

As I said earlier, we drafted all middle/run defense.  DT, DT, S, S, ILB.  The Eagles drafted offense and edge/pass defense.

So now let's look at 2017 team rushing defense stats.  Seriously, if you are not sitting down comfortably, do so.

Okay..here we go.

PHI - allowed 79.2 ypg avg.  1st in NFL

NYJ - allowed 117.9 ypg avg. 24th in NFL 

I...have....no....words.

I love your work.

I hate this team.  

[nycdan]

11 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

I love your work.

I hate this team.  

Thanks.  I haven't been this negative since Kotite.  But I'm a data guy.  I can't even help myself.  So I look at the data here and I see the patterns and I get all stabby on the inside.  This board has been an invaluable outlet and likely saved countless small animals from a horrible death. 

Okay so maybe that was a little dark.  But is there a jury in the land that would not let me slide by reason of...Jets fan?  Seriously, it should be a valid legal defense for lots of things.

[jgb]

4 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Mac needs to spend like a drunken sailor to keep his job beyond this year.  He needs cousins, allen robinson, jarvis landry etc.

He needs to spend every penny and make the playoffs next year or him and bowles are toast.

He needs to spend like the extraordinarily rare "intelligent drunken sailor." I am not optimistic considering how he spent $80 million last time around.

[jetstream23]

Either way we’re screwed with the Cousins situation.

If he doesn’t come here then we still don’t have a franchise QB.

If he does come here then I’m going to seriously question his judgement, decision-making and desire to win. 

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

7 hours ago, nycdan said:

PHI's last 5 1st round picks were DE, QB, WR, DE, LT.

Yeah, but Howie Roseman doesn't have highlights and a sweet nickname.

[Integrity28]

8 hours ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Oh ok. That's right I forgot, there were so many trades that he could have made....

I love the old "he should have traded up for this guy" line as if we even know if that was possible or whether or not he tried.

He did try. He’s on record saying ‘too costly’. He did pass on Watson and Mahomes. Nothing in my post is hypothetical. I don’t do hypothetical arguments, I’m not a half-ass Ape. 

[Jetscreen]

10 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

I agree the 2018 portion hurts but I'd still take this years team over what they inherited. If we land a QB especially if it is Cousins or sitting tight at 6 we will be trending upwards very fast. They next tier down would be trading up for a QB, which really isn't that bad because we'd have had $100M to fix the roster. The absolute worst case situation is a division rival trades in front of us and takes a QB we want.

OK. I get what you're saying. However, you could just as easily say they would not be trending upward, or maybe more accurately traeding water as a 5-11 team? Look at Mac's drafts. There's nothing in those draft choices that should give you a warm and fuzzy feeling about the future. His drafts have been marginal at best. Leonard Williams has turned out to be nothing special. He's a good player but not a player living up to his draft spot. Same with Jamal Adams after one season. The 2016 draft is super crap from start to finish. Hack and Lee are both players the jets are rapidly giving up on.

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, Jetscreen said:

OK. I get what you're saying. However, you could just as easily say they would not be trending upward, or maybe more accurately traeding water as a 5-11 team? Look at Mac's drafts. There's nothing in those draft choices that should give you a warm and fuzzy feeling about the future. His drafts have been marginal at best. Leonard Williams has turned out to be nothing special. He's a good player but not a player living up to his draft spot. Same with Jamal Adams after one season. The 2016 draft is super crap from start to finish. Hack and Lee are both players the jets are rapidly giving up on.

Agree. After inheriting a team with $80M, "trending upward" isn't good enough. We should expect better. And Macc/Bowles should be held accountable (but they won't, yet).

[Jetscreen]

10 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Either way, being in Year Four of a regime and having no QB of merit on the roster should get everyone fired. 

Well, Mac has one more shot to get it right. That's why Woody granted those two boobs extensions. He THINKS Mac can get it right. I have no idea what he thinks about Bowles, but that's another discussion. He thinks Mac can select a truly great QB and get the Jets into deep playoff contention. That all boils down to this off season. If he doesn't solve this QB riddle he gets fired, it's as simple as that.

[Jetscreen]

10 hours ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Whose the guy that Macc has missed out on who he should have drafted/signed?

In 2015 it wasn't an off season where the Jets were in a position to land a franchise caliber QB. Winston and Mariota went 1 and 2. He traded a conditional pick for Fitz (good move) and drafted a project in the 4th round in Petty. 4th round QBs very rarely work out. It was a low risk low reward move. But he got a veteran QB for nothing who had a great season for us.

In 2016 he brought back Fitz who was coming off of a 10 win season and a career year and drafted a project in the second round. That was a terrible pick but it was one pick. There was nobody else for the Jets to bring back besides Fitz in FA.

Last year again, whose the guy they should have drafted? Mahomes or Watson? We'll see how their careers develop. He made a smart move by not paying for a guy like Glennon or Cutler. Signed McCown to a team friendly contract and hoped Hack would develop. It was a bad pick. They do happen.

My point is he hasn't really had a legit chance to land a franchise caliber QB. He's got one this off season.

So it's fates fault that Mac sucks? You mean Mac gets to blame the world and he didn't do anything wrong? The GM and HC are always responsible whether you think it's fair or not.

[Jetscreen]

10 hours ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

I'm under no illusion that Macc is a GM of the year candidate, but he isn't being judged fairly. He has been set up to fail from day 1, and he will never succeed for as long as Woody owns the team and Chris Johnson is running it. I can't judge a GM who stands on even ground with the head coach. I don't know which of his moves were his, and which of his moves were heavily influenced by a Johnson. In either case, Macc has to go. We need a head coach who makes personnel decisions who works with a bean counter who makes the transaction happen. No more of this ridiculous power structure.

So is it your suggestion that because he hasn't been able to hire his own HC, that he can be GM for as long as he wants and never be held accountable? It is what it is, Mike MacCagnan accepted the Jets GM job. He should be judged as harshly as Bowles is

[Jetscreen]

10 hours ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

That's fine. But I just don't see the path he could have taken. This is his 4th season. I'm not saying give him forever to find a guy. I just think 3 years is a small window to give a GM.

I think it's a lifetime. It's certainly comparable to what any other GM in this league has gotten. And the fact that he still has a job after being so disappointing in the overall scheme of things makes him the "Teflon Don".