Air Raid Qbs in the NFL - why are they all bad?

[slats]

1 hour ago, Philc1 said:

For the people trying to use Nick Foles’ one good month in the nfl as the big card to show that air raid qbs might actually be good in the nfl— The Eagles incorporated a lot of gimmicky air raid concepts into their offense if you watched the Super Bowl.  Bates and the Jets run a version of WCO which is totally opposite from air raid

2

 

23 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

And Foles sucked in 2014 and was a JAG backup in KC.  We don’t have the same playbook as Doug Pederson and Bates is at best an unknown commodity as a playcaller who knows if hes skilled enough to incorporate a college offense Bowles certainly won’t help him

 

And the Eagles had arguably the best offensive line in the nfl 

3

Lol. 

You're seeing more NFL teams incorporate more college spread concepts because just about all college QBs run some version of the spread. No matter who the Jets draft, Bates is going to have to adapt what he wants to do to his QB's skill set. If he can't do that, he won't be successful. 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, slats said:

 

Lol. 

You're seeing more NFL teams incorporate more college spread concepts because just about all college QBs run some version of the spread. No matter who the Jets draft, Bates is going to have to adapt what he wants to do to his QB's skill set. If he can't do that, he won't be successful. 

this is the main/only reason why i can see the jets considering mayfield at 3 if it's between mayfield and allen.  mayfield has a nice quick setup and delivery and his precision in the short and intermediate game is what bates wants. 

[#27TheDominator]

Interesting thing to me is how many of these guys and Big12 guys in particular had good to great rookie seasons.  Geno was solid.  I think Bradford, RG3 and Vince Young all won ROY.  Freeman looked very good his first couple of years. Other than Bradford, they all fizzled out in a major way.  It would be typical Jets to draft Mayfield, have a decent season and then have him tank in 2019 or 2020. 

[NYs Stepchild]

2 hours ago, Philc1 said:

For the people trying to use Nick Foles’ one good month in the nfl as the big card to show that air raid qbs might actually be good in the nfl— The Eagles incorporated a lot of gimmicky air raid concepts into their offense if you watched the Super Bowl.  Bates and the Jets run a version of WCO which is totally opposite from air raid

When did the offense the Jets run become germaine to the discussion about why air raid QBs are all bad?

Sounds like a desperate attempt to obfuscate so maybe someone won't notice how badly you've lost this argument. 

[NYs Stepchild]

1 hour ago, Philc1 said:

Geno and Baker — same offense and same conference 

 

 

What can go wrong? ?

Geno did not run the same offense as Mayfield. 

[Warfish]

2 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Well yeah my agenda is to actually be good 

And how should we do that, specifically?

[rangerous]

the thing is there is no such thing as a one type offense, especially in the pro's.  oh they may have tendencies but that should only be to take advantage of the player strengths. there have been plenty of offences that relied primarily on the pass long before the current pass happy era.

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, Philc1 said:

Geno and Baker — same offense and same conference 

 

 

What can go wrong? ?

 

4 minutes ago, NYs Stepchild said:

Geno did not run the same offense as Mayfield. 

Wasn't really in the same conference either.  WVU was in the Big 12 Geno's final year 2012.  Before that, they were in the Big East.  Does that mean Geno will perform well in the NCAA tournament? 

It is kind of a joke comparing these players based on their conference over such a long period.  When Bradford was in the Big 12 so were Texas A&M, Nebraska, Colorado and Missouri.  When Baker Mayfield was in the Big 12 those teams were gone and it had added WVU and TCU. 

[BCJet]

19 minutes ago, rangerous said:

the thing is there is no such thing as a one type offense, especially in the pro's.  oh they may have tendencies but that should only be to take advantage of the player strengths. there have been plenty of offences that relied primarily on the pass long before the current pass happy era.

Yes and no.

There are plenty of recycled OCs who have "their playbook" and continue to force their players to learn what they like to run/call (see Baltimore with the great Marty Mornenwhig).  There are far fewer guys who simply look at the tendencies and areas of strength of their opponent and combine it with the areas of strength/weakness of their players and simply adapt.

[Lupz27]

12 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Well Pat Mahomes and Davis Webb are also Air Raid QBs.

NIck Foles and Case Keenum were as well

Jared Goff is too

 

12 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

And Derek Carr. 

He tends to forget the good QB's lol. 

 

#Agenda. 

Case Keenum is the only QB you can’t use to try, and defend Mayfield because all the other QB’s in these posts are 6’2”-6’6” (Mahomes-Foles).

And it took Case Keenum what 6 years 5 teams, and one of the most talented teams in the league, and brightest offensive minds in the NFL to succeed, to only get tossed aside for a guy who is a prototypical 6’4”ish QB who also never won a damn thing.  If you want to draft Mayfield you should just have signed Keenum and saved the 1st round pick instead of wasting it.

[Lupz27]

10 hours ago, slats said:

Bates is at best an unknown commodity as a playcaller

Bates called plays for the Broncos in 2008, and 2009 I believe which coincides with Cutlers best 2 seasons.

That was supposed to be @Philc1 not you Slats just grabbed the quote from your post so it tagged you.

[HessStation]

United is owning this thread. FML

[Lupz27]

2 minutes ago, HessStation said:

United is owning this thread. FML

Well when one guy continues to throw you layup passes it’s hard to miss lol.

[Jetsplayer21]

So the objective in college was for Allen to be bad and not even rack up 2 thousand yards, while baker put up almost 5k. But I’m sure if Allen wanted to he could have also if he could “ air raid?” Lol

[Villain The Foe]

22 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

 

Case Keenum is the only QB you can’t use to try, and defend Mayfield because all the other QB’s in these posts are 6’2”-6’6” (Mahomes-Foles).

And it took Case Keenum what 6 years 5 teams, and one of the most talented teams in the league, and brightest offensive minds in the NFL to succeed, to only get tossed aside for a guy who is a prototypical 6’4”ish QB who also never won a damn thing.  If you want to draft Mayfield you should just have signed Keenum and saved the 1st round pick instead of wasting it.

So now i can't use successful nfl qb's who played in air raid offenses in college unless they're under 6'2??? ??

It's truly been an exciting time watching people again and again "move the goal posts" in order to either discredit Mayfield's performance or simply set the scenario to where he has no chance to succeed at the next level. 

Folks like this is the reason he's a 2x walk-on and Heisman winner. 

Ill bet on Baker. Seems like those who dont end up being wrong. 

 

[Lupz27]

1 minute ago, Villain The Foe said:

So now i can't use successful nfl qb's who played in air raid offenses in college unless they're under 6'2??? ??

It's truly been an exciting time watching people again and again "move the goal posts" in order to either discredit Mayfield's performance or simply set the scenario to where he has no chance to succeed at the next level. 

Folks like this is the reason he's a 2x walk-on and Heisman winner. 

Ill bet on Baker. Seems like those who dont end up being wrong. 

 

Stop with the Walk on nonsense, dude walked on so he could play without having to sit out the season, it wasn’t because nobody offered him a scholarship it’s so ******* stupid to keep using the he “walks on” and has a “chip” on his shoulder, he was just lucky to come from a family to be financially capable to do this.

[Lupz27]

4 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

So now i can't use successful nfl qb's who played in air raid offenses in college unless they're under 6'2?

Like it or not pretty much.

There is literally ONE QB in the modern NFL that can be pointed to as a successful QB at that height who isn’t a mobile QB (Baker is not a mobile QB in terms of running ability).

And if you scout Baker like you have you will know Baker is NOTHING like Drew Brees, he refuses to check the ball down, he on average holds the ball longer then any of the real top QB’s in this draft, always looking to run around to make the big throw which was all well in good when your team had twice the talent as your opponent, and the defensive players are not NFL caliber chasing you around, that style of play sands a Newton, Roethlisberger without the athletic ability to elude NFL talent (which he does not possess) will get you killed, sacked, and benched.  Baker isn’t Wilson, he isn’t Ben, he isn’t Vick.  He is a like able guy who happened to play for one of the most talented teams in CFB which allowed him to use his talents which on th college level are undeniable as one of the best to play on that level, but by know means does that translate to the next level with all the things above that are flawed with him sorry.

[Villain The Foe]

14 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Stop with the Walk on nonsense, dude walked on so he could play without having to sit out the season, it wasn’t because nobody offered him a scholarship it’s so ******* stupid to keep using the he “walks on” and has a “chip” on his shoulder, he was just lucky to come from a family to be financially capable to do this.

There you go being wrong again and cursing while being wrong. He walked onto OU' campus after his 2013 season at Texas Tech. Because he transferred he sat out the entire 2014 season. Go check the statline if you need some clarification. 

 

The hate is real over this kid. Crazy i tell ya. ?

[Villain The Foe]

3 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Like it or not pretty much.

I know hate when i see it. You're the first to atleast come clean with it. 

[Lupz27]

4 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

There you go being wrong again and cursing while being wrong. He walked onto OU' campus after his 2013 season at Texas Tech. Because he transferred he sat out the entire 2014 season. Go check the statline if you need some clarification. 

 

The hate us real over this kid. Crazy u tell ya. ?

My bad because it was in conference he had to sit out did not know that stipulation, but here is why he initially didn’t get a scholarship, it clearly reads OU planed on giving him one but Tech was ******* with him, and them.

Mayfield transferred to Oklahoma. That got ugly.

There are two relevant rules to know here. One is the NCAA’s, and one is the Big 12’s. The NCAA’s says that players who transfer, if they haven’t already graduated, must sit out a year before returning to game action. That “academic year in residence” is a redshirt season, so players get an extra season tacked on at the end of their careers.

But the Big 12 has a rule that if players transfer within the conference, they lose that year of eligibility, in addition to having to sit out the season. That loss of eligibility could be waived by the player’s former school, but Tech denied Mayfield’s request to do that — and also, for a while, to let Oklahoma put Mayfield on scholarship.

So OU wasn’t allowed to put him on Scholarship, but once they could the following year they did, and always planned to.

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, Lupz27 said:

My bad because it was in conference he had to sit out did not know that stipulation, but here is why he initially didn’t get a scholarship, it clearly reads OU planed on giving him one but Tech was ******* with him, and them.

Mayfield transferred to Oklahoma. That got ugly.

There are two relevant rules to know here. One is the NCAA’s, and one is the Big 12’s. The NCAA’s says that players who transfer, if they haven’t already graduated, must sit out a year before returning to game action. That “academic year in residence” is a redshirt season, so players get an extra season tacked on at the end of their careers.

But the Big 12 has a rule that if players transfer within the conference, they lose that year of eligibility, in addition to having to sit out the season. That loss of eligibility could be waived by the player’s former school, but Tech denied Mayfield’s request to do that — and also, for a while, to let Oklahoma put Mayfield on scholarship.

So OU wasn’t allowed to put him on Scholarship, but once they could the following year they did, and always planned to.

You were wrong. 

Only curse at me when you are certain you are correct. Dont let the hate cloud your focus too much bro. Lol

 

[Lupz27]

7 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

You were wrong. 

Only curse at me when you are certain you are correct. Dont let the hate cloud your focus too much bro. Lol

 

Half wrong lol.

[legler82]

11 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

this is the main/only reason why i can see the jets considering mayfield at 3 if it's between mayfield and allen.  mayfield has a nice quick setup and delivery and his precision in the short and intermediate game is what bates wants. 

According to who?

[Lupz27]

1 minute ago, legler82 said:

According to who?

People who want Mayfield, Mayfield holds the ball WAY to long to work in that type of offense IF that is what Bates wants.

[legler82]

3 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

People who want Mayfield, Mayfield holds the ball WAY to long to work in that type of offense IF that is what Bates wants.

Bates is Mike Shanahan disciple. Yes, Shanahan's is a WCO guy but his version is not the traditional use the short passing game as an extension of the running game type. Shanahan's WCO was run heavy behind zone blocking; it was notorious for routinely churning out 1,000 yard rushers from late round/UFA running backs. The passing attack was then built off of that, with lots of play action, bootlegs and design rollouts attacking the intermediate to deep part of the field, all of Allen's strengths. Plus he unlike Mayfield is familiar with the footwork and ball handling requirements for these plays.  Furthermore, Mike Shanahan tended to gravitate towards big arm athletic QBs (e.g., Elway, Cutler, McNabb, RGIII...etc.) when given the choice.  

[Villain The Foe]

25 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Half wrong lol.

It would have been half, but you jumped out the window with the cursing like you had it in the bag...thats where it went way wrong for you. 

The response article you sent afterwards i didnt even read given that there was no need to. Either Mayfield played in 2014 or he didnt. As you found out...he had to sit out.

Sometimes you just have to take an L when you slip and fall off the soapbox like that brother lol. Still got love for you though. You dont let up a minute, and though i disagree i atleast respect the dedication. 

Look, im a hater when it comes to certain things too...but when you jump out the window like that you got to be right all the way....because if not.....??

[Lupz27]

2 minutes ago, legler82 said:

Bates is Mike Shanahan disciple. Yes, Shanahan's is a WCO guy but his version is not the traditional use the short passing game as an extension of the running game type. Shanahan's WCO was run heavy behind zone blocking; it was notorious for routinely churning out 1,000 yard rushers from late round/UFA running backs. The passing attack was then built off of that, with lots of play action, bootlegs and design rollouts attacking the intermediate to deep part of the field, all of Allen's strengths. Plus he unlike Mayfield is familiar with the footwork and ball handling requirements for these plays.  Furthermore, Mike Shanahan tended to gravitate towards big arm athletic QBs (e.g., Elway, Cutler, McNabb, RGIII...etc.) when given the choice.  

I know all of this, was defending your statement, put the IF in there because we don’t know if Bates will change certain things without Shannahan over seeing the offense.

[Lupz27]

2 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

It would have been half, but you jumped out the window with the cursing like you had it in the bag...thats where it went way wrong for you. 

The response article you sent afterwards i didnt even read given that there was no need to. Either Mayfield played in 2014 or he didnt. As you found out...he had to sit out.

Sometimes you just to to take an L when you slip and fall off the soapbox like that brother lol. Still got love for you though. You dont let up a minute, and though i disagree i atleast respect the dedication. 

Look, im a hater when it comes to certain things too...but when you jump out the window like that you got to be right all the way....because if not.....??

Half wrong because of the Scholarship point, read the article ?

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, Lupz27 said:

Half wrong because of the Scholarship point, read the article ?

I know the story. I've been following Baker Mayfield since 2016. He's why i started watching college football. I knew about this situation for years now. I also know how TT tried to penalize him by forcing the NCAA to take away a year of eligibility from him though he was not on scholarship. TT tried to stick it to him but the athlete bet on himself and organizations like that dont like when they dont get their way. Well Baker did. He beat TT everytime he played against them and the year of eligibility they tried to strip from him he turned into a heisman trophy season. 

Nothing in that article i didnt know for atleast a year because its been a story since he began playing for OU in 2015. 

 

[legler82]

7 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

I know all of this, was defending your statement, put the IF in there because we don’t know if Bates will change certain things without Shannahan over seeing the offense.

I know; my post was really towards the poster claiming to know what Bates wants.  No one knows for certain but history and his NFL ties would suggest something different

[Lupz27]

7 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

I know the story. I've been following Baker Mayfield since 2016. He's why i started watching college football. I knew about this situation for years now. I also know how TT tried to penalize him by forcing the NCAA to take away a year of eligibility from him though he was not on scholarship. TT tried to stick it to him but the athlete bet on himself and organizations like that dont like when they dont get their way. Well Baker did. He beat TT everytime he played against them and the year of eligibility they tried to strip from him he turned into a heisman trophy season. 

Nothing in that article i didnt know for atleast a year because its been a story since he began playing for OU in 2015. 

 

So you know all this yet you still spew he had to walk on at OU when OU couldn’t wait for him to be eligible and hand him a Scholarship lol.

[adb280z]

13 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Well Pat Mahomes and Davis Webb are also Air Raid QBs.

NIck Foles and Case Keenum were as well

Jared Goff is too

Mahomes and Webb haven't done anything yet.  

Foles had 1 great season and a playoff run out of six seasons.

Goff 1 good/1 bad

[Villain The Foe]

21 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

So you know all this yet you still spew he had to walk on at OU when OU couldn’t wait for him to be eligible and hand him a Scholarship lol.

Baker left TT and told them he was leaving before they showed him a scholarship. It was only after he left that they acted like they wanted him. Now what happened was they had Patrick Mahomes and Davis Webb and they though they could dangle the true freshman around. 

The bottomline in order to clear it up is this. The NCAA got wind of the situation, heard bith sides and had to make a decision. The NCAA concluded that Mayfield left and transferred while not on a scholarship, he also followed the rule and sat out a year as a student athlete that transferred and there was nothing that indicates that he violated anything given that he wasnt under scholarship...so this is why the did not take an eligible year from him. 

But, since that is out of the way lets not change the subject again. You were wrong. All of this dog any pony show is unnecessary. Texas tech didnt like that Mayfield bet on himself. They can claim whatever they want...but what they can never claim is that he was under scholarship.

And as a sidenote, this is a perfect example of the level of hate surrounding this kid. Fans are going this far, seriously....this far to find anything that they can find wrong with Baker Mayfield. 

It's incredible to watch human beings do this. Something so pointless actually. The kid was awesome in college, was an underdog and massively overachieved. 

I'm watching people on this website try to find more reasons for why this kid is either no good, a problem child or whatever...to the point that its seriously competing with the amount of excuses i am also being fed on this site as to why everything that we've seen from Josh Allen's game tape means nothing because now he's fixed his footwork and his accuracy at the senior bowl, the combine and his pro day.

This place has seriously turned into some twilight zone, tales from the crypt buffoonery for real. 

I mean most of the time my face is either like this...? or like this...? depending on the level of "reaching" you folks truly want me to accept. The koolaid has definitely been spiked and the amount of pressure from you folks to make sane folks drink is becoming comical.

 

[Philc1]

12 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Interesting thing to me is how many of these guys and Big12 guys in particular had good to great rookie seasons.  Geno was solid.  I think Bradford, RG3 and Vince Young all won ROY.  Freeman looked very good his first couple of years. Other than Bradford, they all fizzled out in a major way.  It would be typical Jets to draft Mayfield, have a decent season and then have him tank in 2019 or 2020. 

Once defensive coordinators get a season’s worth of tape of these guys it’s over

[Philc1]

11 hours ago, NYs Stepchild said:

Geno did not run the same offense as Mayfield. 

Oh yes he did