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Will Mahomes pass Montana as the best QB ever?

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27 minutes ago, ghost_in_pads02 said:

You forgot Bradys two SBs comebacks against Seattle and Atlanta.

No, I remember, lol. He's my GOAT.

My point was that Montana had the rep of pulling off those late game heroics. Not a bad rep to have...

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26 minutes ago, CTM said:

Brady is the GOAT and it's not close, the debate is for #2

I don't think anyone would call me a Jets homer, but I simply won't consider Brady part of the conversation.  When you get caught for cheating a 3rd time, with dozens of other allegations, and circumvent the salary cap by being paid by the team in other ways, you don't get to be the GOAT.

Frankly, if you knew the rules would be fair, would you take Brady in his prime as your first choice in building a team?  I wouldn't.  

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I doubt anyone will ever surpass Montana in my eyes.

With the game on the line, even dudes like Brady and Elway completely pale in comparison.

He played during an era where defenders could smack the dogsh*t out of the QB and he still routinely came through in the biggest spots.

I actually feel sorry for the younger fans who never got the chance to see him play.

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54 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Terrell Davis? Travis, you're 7 years too late. 

AAAGH, you're correct sir.

I hate when little things like "actual facts" ruin my arguments. Excuse me now, as I walk away deservedly chastened....

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On 1/13/2020 at 9:29 AM, TeddEY said:

I don't think anyone would call me a Jets homer, but I simply won't consider Brady part of the conversation.  When you get caught for cheating a 3rd time, with dozens of other allegations, and circumvent the salary cap by being paid by the team in other ways, you don't get to be the GOAT.

Frankly, if you knew the rules would be fair, would you take Brady in his prime as your first choice in building a team?  I wouldn't.  

I would, hes a great player who doesnt shrivel under pressure and I think his work ethic and determination to win and be the best are nearly unrivaled

I'm in the camp that all these guys cheat, steroid use is pervasive and teams take extensive counter measures for spying which means that is also common. Maybe the Pat's were better at it than others, or maybe they get more attention from other teams due to the unprecedented level of success they've had. 

His best year was post spygate when theoretically they'd have been on thier best behavior. I just dont think it's as big a factor as some want it to be. To me the 17 year marriage of an all time coach and all time QB combined with dysfunctional divisional rivals is a simpler explanation. The Pat's spent a decade where they and the other teams expected them to be the best that's a huge psychological advantage. From a practical sense, 5 gimmes a year in the division goes a long way towards wild card byes and home playoff games, which goes a long way towards winning SB's

 

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24 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

No, I remember, lol. He's my GOAT.

My point was that Montana had the rep of pulling off those late game heroics. Not a bad rep to have...

I see what you are saying.

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14 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Quarterbacks don't win Superbowls, teams do.

Funny how some QB's always seem to be in contention though, regardless of the team around them.

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18 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

I doubt anyone will ever surpass Montana in my eyes.

With the game on the line, even dudes like Brady and Elway completely pale in comparison.

He played during an era where defenders could smack the dogsh*t out of the QB and he still routinely came through in the biggest spots.

I actually feel sorry for the younger fans who never got the chance to see him play.

The Brees, Bradys, Peyton, Rivers also played In that era as well....the rules didnt change to after 07.

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14 hours ago, nycdan said:

I told me son that in 10 years he might look back and realize he got to watch the GOAT from the beginning of his career.  I used to think Rodgers was going to take that title over.  Now the torch has passed to Mahomes.  It's early but he really could shatter every record if he can play this way for a full career.  The kid is just unbelievably good.

He could play at 75 % of what he is now and still set a bunch of records.  

He could have thrown 15 fewer TDs last season and still led the league.  That's how much better he is than the rest of the pack right now.

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13 hours ago, New York Mick said:

What makes Montana the best is what he did in the Supers Bowls. No one will ever be as good as he was in that category and Mahomes has a lot to do before he’s even mentioned in the top of anything. If he keeps playing like he did today obviously but he’s not going to. 

1) Why not?

2) Even if you're correct, see my above post.  75 % of what Mahomes is right now for the rest of his career + a couple rings would make him a GOAT candidate.  

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11 hours ago, pdxgreen said:

Will Aaron Judge pass Hank Aaron as the greatest home run hitter of all time?

The thread was created by Nico as a way to try to rip on Mahomes back in September.  Don't take that part seriously.

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1 hour ago, 14 in Green said:

 

Peyton was excellent, and if he's your GOAT, that's fine.

I feel that with the teams he played with, his playoff record was terrible. He was fortunate to be in Denver when Terrel Davis was so dominant. Getting a second ring there quieted the skeptics a bit. If you remember before that, all you would see before his playoff appearances were graphics showing the juxtaposition between his regular and post season record.

To me a very good comp to Peyton was Dan Marino. Two all time greats. Prolific numbers and regular season success. When it comes to a GOAT discussion though, I think it comes down to Brady and Montana. Brady has more rings, but Montana just had an aura about him. When he got the ball late in the game with his team trailing, you just knew he'd get it done.

I go back and forth, but Brady gets my nod. His number of playoff wins, and rings are something I don't think we'll ever see another QB come close to.

 

Peyton's rosters were actually pretty terrible, with the exception of Marvin Harrison.  The Colts were incredibly lucky to be propped up by Peyton for as long as they were.  Their owner is a drunk, drug addict, and awful person.  

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1 hour ago, CTM said:

Brady is the GOAT and it's not close, the debate is for #2

Brady is Lance Armstrong.  

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17 minutes ago, CTM said:

I'm in the camp that all these guys cheat, steroid use is pervasive and teams take extensive counter measures for spying which means that is also common. Maybe the Pat's were better at it than others, or maybe they get more attention from other teams due to the unprecedented level of success they've had.

 

Come on now.  The rest of the NFL had to sit there and take the Pats' cheating for decades because the league needed to "protect the shield".  The fact that they were ONLY caught 3 times despite it being quite clear they were doing it all the time is telling.  That means that 28 teams remained silent on the issue while only 3 (Rams, Jets, Bengals) actually reported the Pats for cheating.

It was a running joke among the rest of the league about QB headsets going out at inopportune times, playbooks going missing, and the Pats knowing the plays.  It's also telling that OL who left the Pats always had less success elsewhere and a lot of RB's picked up fumbling issues without the deflated footballs.  

Also, for such a math guy as yourself, I'm surprised you've never considered the fact that the Pats' record at home was mathematically unsustainable without excessive cheating going on.

Wait for the 30 for 30 that comes out on all of the Pats' cheating after Belichick and Brady retire before shrugging it all off.  

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1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

1) Why not?

2) Even if you're correct, see my above post.  75 % of what Mahomes is right now for the rest of his career + a couple rings would make him a GOAT candidate.  

Why can’t he play every game for the next 10 years like he played yesterday? Because athletes don’t have nearly a perfect game every outing. 
I also said SB performance. What Montana did in the SBs will probably never be duplicated. Mahomes has the ability to do it but I would bet against it without thinking twice. 

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2 minutes ago, New York Mick said:

Why can’t he play every game for the next 10 years like he played yesterday? Because athletes don’t have nearly a perfect game every outing. 

 

He wasn't perfect though.  Hence why the team fell behind 24-0 in the first place.  

It only SEEMED like Mahomes played a perfect game because they ended up winning in a blowout.  We haven't seen a game like that before, where a team goes behind by 20+ then wins by 20+.  It simply doesn't happen.

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On 1/12/2020 at 11:15 PM, pdxgreen said:

You missed the joke.  

Ohhhh.....  In my defense, the joke was just far too nuanced for this place.

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38 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Come on now.  The rest of the NFL had to sit there and take the Pats' cheating for decades because the league needed to "protect the shield".  The fact that they were ONLY caught 3 times despite it being quite clear they were doing it all the time is telling.  That means that 28 teams remained silent on the issue while only 3 (Rams, Jets, Bengals) actually reported the Pats for cheating.

It was a running joke among the rest of the league about QB headsets going out at inopportune times, playbooks going missing, and the Pats knowing the plays.  It's also telling that OL who left the Pats always had less success elsewhere and a lot of RB's picked up fumbling issues without the deflated footballs.  

Also, for such a math guy as yourself, I'm surprised you've never considered the fact that the Pats' record at home was mathematically unsustainable without excessive cheating going on.

Wait for the 30 for 30 that comes out on all of the Pats' cheating after Belichick and Brady retire before shrugging it all off.  

All I know is cheating, as in doing anything to get an edge, is pervasive in sports at all levels. 

It's also far more likely for a fan of a rival team to take your slant than mine which is why I rarely answer these things seriously. It's just not worth the energy, but EY is not a Jet homer as he said so I answered now I'm done.

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

You got to admit, Montana was still a quite brittle though. Guys like Elway, Marino, Moon and Kelly, played in that same era and stayed on the field more often than Montana ever did. 

Montana played 15 years and only started a full 16 games twice in his career. Montana gets that "Jordan effect" at times. Instead of him being an injury prone QB, it's instead made to be like this guy was playing back when the league was lawless, as if this was the era where it was simply the norm that no QB could play a full 16 game season. Na, Montana was a great QB that was also prone to injury.

He was not as durable, no doubt, he also played in the NFC, which was the dominant division in the 80s, with some great defenses, that were all in the NFC.

80's Giants, Eagles, Bears, and Vikings

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14 minutes ago, CTM said:

All I know is cheating, as in doing anything to get an edge, is pervasive in sports at all levels. 

It's also far more likely for a fan of a rival team to take your slant than mine which is why I rarely answer these things seriously. It's just not worth the energy, but EY is not a Jet homer as he said so I answered now I'm done.

Of course, but some teams/players do so more egregiously and arrogantly than others.  Similar to the way Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens will never get in the HOF but some other PED users have and will.  Brady and Belichick will get in the HOF but the public perception of them will be firmly negative.

Yes, Jets fans hate Brady and the Pats.  Know who else does?  All other NFL teams' fans aside from the Pats.  And its not just the winning.  Several other dynasties weren't hated as much as the Pats.  People revere the Steelers of the 70s and the 49ers of the 80s.  The Pats won't be revered.  And the cheating is the biggest part of that.  

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No list with Brady on it at the top has integrity.

Best QB's of all time:
1. Joe Montana

2. Peyton Manning

3. Brett Favre

4. Johnny Unitas

5. Aaron Rodgers

6. Drew Brees

7. Tom Brady*

8. Dan Marino

9. John Elway

10. Roger Staubach

 

*He's a Pumpkin Eater

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4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Of course, but some teams/players do so more egregiously and arrogantly than others.  Similar to the way Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens will never get in the HOF but some other PED users have and will.  Brady and Belichick will get in the HOF but the public perception of them will be firmly negative.

So your position is that, in a sport in which PED's are handed out like candy in single A, that Bonds just used a ton more than others?

You don't think that Bonds was an arrogant ahole and set all kinds of records has anything to do with him getting more scorn than others? 

Silly take imo.

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3 minutes ago, CTM said:

So your position is that, in a sport in which PED's are handed out like candy in single A, that Bonds just used a ton more than others?

You don't think that Bonds was an arrogant ahole and set all kinds of records has anything to do with him getting more scorn than others? 

Silly take imo.

 

Yes, I do.  Because at his age (late 30s) he gained such an incredible muscle mass.  Hell, even his head expanded in size.  It was visually startling.  

Yes, Bonds was an arrogant a-hole, and was always known to be one.  He saw what McGwire and Sosa did in '98 and how much they were loved for it, said "I can do better than that" and started going to BALCO.  That in itself wasn't his biggest sin. 

But using as much as he did was so clear and obvious, and he used it not only to break the single-season HR mark but Hank's record too.  Yes, Hank Aaron, who was stuck on 713 HR's all offseason the year before he broke Ruth's 714 mark, receiving death threats all offseason in the process.  Hank, who helped pave the way for future black players.  It's like Bonds was spitting on the game. 

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42 minutes ago, chirorob said:

He was not as durable, no doubt, he also played in the NFC, which was the dominant division in the 80s, with some great defenses, that were all in the NFC.

80's Giants, Eagles, Bears, and Vikings

Facts. 

 

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50 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yes, I do.  Because at his age (late 30s) he gained such an incredible muscle mass.  Hell, even his head expanded in size.  It was visually startling.  

Yes, Bonds was an arrogant a-hole, and was always known to be one.  He saw what McGwire and Sosa did in '98 and how much they were loved for it, said "I can do better than that" and started going to BALCO.  That in itself wasn't his biggest sin. 

But using as much as he did was so clear and obvious, and he used it not only to break the single-season HR mark but Hank's record too.  Yes, Hank Aaron, who was stuck on 713 HR's all offseason the year before he broke Ruth's 714 mark, receiving death threats all offseason in the process.  Hank, who helped pave the way for future black players.  It's like Bonds was spitting on the game. 

The story I've always heard, was Bonds became the 1st player to ever have 500 stolen bases, and 500 home runs, and he did it clean.

Then, McGwire and Sosa obviously juiced up, and shattered the HR record, so Bonds said, "OK, let me show you what I can do."  I don't know that he did more steroids than the others, or if he was just the best player to use them.   The fact he was a total A Hole who broke the 2 biggest records in the sport is what pissed people off so much. 

Hell, Raffy Palmiero went from a guy who hit 30 home runs in 3 years (over 1800 At Bats) to a guy with 560 home runs.

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17 minutes ago, chirorob said:

The story I've always heard, was Bonds became the 1st player to ever have 500 stolen bases, and 500 home runs, and he did it clean.

Then, McGwire and Sosa obviously juiced up, and shattered the HR record, so Bonds said, "OK, let me show you what I can do."  I don't know that he did more steroids than the others, or if he was just the best player to use them.   The fact he was a total A Hole who broke the 2 biggest records in the sport is what pissed people off so much. 

Hell, Raffy Palmiero went from a guy who hit 30 home runs in 3 years (over 1800 At Bats) to a guy with 560 home runs.

 

^^^ Exactly how it went down.  Bonds knew he was a HOFer without steroids, but was pissed over all the attention other guys were getting WITH steroids.  

Now he's not a HOFer at all because of that decision.  Maybe in time he will be, but some older voters need to die off first.  Personally, I would never vote him into the Hall.  

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5 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Terrell Davis? Travis, you're 7 years too late. 

Yeah, TD played with Elway lol

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3 hours ago, CTM said:

I would, hes a great player who doesnt shrivel under pressure and I think his work ethic and determination to win and be the best are nearly unrivaled

I'm in the camp that all these guys cheat, steroid use is pervasive and teams take extensive counter measures for spying which means that is also common. Maybe the Pat's were better at it than others, or maybe they get more attention from other teams due to the unprecedented level of success they've had. 

His best year was post spygate when theoretically they'd have been on thier best behavior. I just dont think it's as big a factor as some want it to be. To me the 17 year marriage of an all time coach and all time QB combined with dysfunctional divisional rivals is a simpler explanation. The Pat's spent a decade where they and the other teams expected them to be the best that's a huge psychological advantage. From a practical sense, 5 gimmes a year in the division goes a long way towards wild card byes and home playoff games.

 

Maybe you’re under less pressure when you know the other teams plays?  And why do we assume that the year after spygate, their behavior improved.

I’m just saying, knowing all I do, and imagining all I don’t, I wouldn’t mess with Brady if picking an all-time team.

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17 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Maybe you’re under less pressure when you know the other teams plays?  And why do we assume that the year after spygate, their behavior improved.

I’m just saying, knowing all I do, and imagining all I don’t, I wouldn’t mess with Brady if picking an all-time team.

That's a fine position obviously, I know it's not one you came to through green goggles so I tried to answer as best I could. 

I do believe he is a special player and in some ways I admire the rags to riches part of his story.

If the cheating was an overwhelming part of his success, which I dont believe, I'm fairly confident Belichick was the architect.

Further, I'm extremely confident the biggest advantage to be gained in knowing the other teams plays is from a defensive pov, so why the decade of middling defenses and top 3 offenses? Did they just decide not to cheat when on D?

It just doesnt add up to me.

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18 hours ago, chirorob said:

The story I've always heard, was Bonds became the 1st player to ever have 500 stolen bases, and 500 home runs, and he did it clean.

Then, McGwire and Sosa obviously juiced up, and shattered the HR record, so Bonds said, "OK, let me show you what I can do."  I don't know that he did more steroids than the others, or if he was just the best player to use them.   The fact he was a total A Hole who broke the 2 biggest records in the sport is what pissed people off so much. 

Hell, Raffy Palmiero went from a guy who hit 30 home runs in 3 years (over 1800 At Bats) to a guy with 560 home runs.

Don’t remember the year off the top of my head but BB had a year that was video game like and so far ahead of all other hitters in all major categories that is was laughable.
 

I still remember He was IBB with the bases loaded with his team down 2. 

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23 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

Peyton was excellent, and if he's your GOAT, that's fine.

I feel that with the teams he played with, his playoff record was terrible. He was fortunate to be in Denver when Terrel Davis was so dominant.

Maybe stick to hating Darnold and ball-washing Baker. I wouldn’t even say you’re good at that, but at least with all the nonstop repetition, you’ve gotten to some sort of adequacy with it.

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19 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

^^^ Exactly how it went down.  Bonds knew he was a HOFer without steroids, but was pissed over all the attention other guys were getting WITH steroids.  

Now he's not a HOFer at all because of that decision.  Maybe in time he will be, but some older voters need to die off first.  Personally, I would never vote him into the Hall.  

Bonds before steroids was the best player I ever saw

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20 hours ago, playtowinthegame said:

No list with Brady on it at the top has integrity.

Best QB's of all time:
1. Joe Montana

2. Peyton Manning

3. Brett Favre

4. Johnny Unitas

5. Aaron Rodgers

6. Drew Brees

7. Tom Brady*

8. Dan Marino

9. John Elway

10. Roger Staubach

 

*He's a Pumpkin Eater

Brady is the GOAT.  

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22 hours ago, CTM said:

His best year was post spygate when theoretically they'd have been on thier best behavior.

I mean, he did have like 6 years of footage on other teams to help him out, even if that one tape was stomped out.

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