AP Comeback Player of the Year & Most Improved: Ryan Tannehill

[Philc1]

20 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So zero credit for Demaryius Thomas, Alex Lewis, Ryan Griffin, Braxton Berrios or Vyncint Smith?   And no acknowledgment that the Center position was a mess, thus rendering it necessary to make a move late in the offseason?  All righty then.

I never said the bar was high to be the "best GM here since...".  And we're all well aware he hasn't had a draft yet.  That's only been said about 15,000 times.  

The center position was a mess because Gase and Douglas signed a washed up Ryan Kalil one month before the season

[jetstream23]

On 1/18/2020 at 5:51 AM, Barry McCockinner said:

This is what we call cherry picking. No need for further explanation, you already know.

So you don’t think Tannehill deserves the award because injuries don’t count? Or because getting back to the player he once was in Miami isn’t good enough? Or because this award is 40% Derrick Henry’s?

[Jetsfan80]

The center position was a mess because Gase and Douglas signed a washed up Ryan Kalil one month before the season

 

Sure that’s it. Had nothing to do with the likes of Wesley Johnson and Spencer Long manning the position before their arrival.

 

Signing Kalil was a symptom of the problem (OL neglect for 5 years), not the cause.

[jgb]

Who the Hell saw this coming???

[T0mShane]

On 1/17/2020 at 1:34 PM, Barry McCockinner said:

 

Kudos to current street free agent looking for another team Ryan Tannehill 

[Jet Nut]

On 1/19/2020 at 10:05 AM, Philc1 said:

The center position was a mess because Gase and Douglas signed a washed up Ryan Kalil one month before the season

 

No, the C position was a mess because Macc ignored it and when JD came on he had to scramble for scraps, took a chance on Kalil

All the rest is pure BS 

[Jetsfan80]

33 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

 

No, the C position was a mess because Macc ignored it and when JD came on he had to scramble for scraps, took a chance on Kalil

All the rest is pure BS 

 

We rarely agree.  On this we're in full agreement.   

 

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

^^^ By the way did you guys know that's Robert Redford?  I only learned that recently and it blew my mind.  

[greenwichjetfan]

On 1/17/2020 at 11:31 PM, T0mShane said:

Gase ran Tannehill out of Miami a full three months after he was fired, and traded Kenyan Drake a full ten months after he was fired, which is a vulgar display of power from the grave if I’ve ever seen one 

Lemme try:

Macc is responsible for being near last in every significant offensive category this year! And that’s after playing one of the easiest schedules we’ve seen in years!

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Lemme try:

Macc is responsible for being near last in every significant offensive category this year! And that’s after playing one of the easiest schedules we’ve seen in years!

Now you're getting it.  lol.

[T0mShane]

1 hour ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Lemme try:

Macc is responsible for being near last in every significant offensive category this year! And that’s after playing one of the easiest schedules we’ve seen in years!

So it’s your contention that a man who is considered to be possibly the worst GM in team history, who—over the course of five offseasons—staffed his offensive unit with players who wouldn’t start for any of the teams in this year’s playoffs, bears little to no responsibility for the struggles of this year’s offense, but the coach who showed up in January, who asked for an upgrade at backup TE and C—and was refused on both—should bear all the responsibility for said offense? 

[BROOKLYN JET]

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Kudos to current street free agent looking for another team Ryan Tannehill 

Gase!

[Jetsfan80]

23 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

So it’s your contention that a man who is considered to be possibly the worst GM in team history, who—over the course of five offseasons—staffed his offensive unit with players who wouldn’t start for any of the teams in this year’s playoffs, bears little to no responsibility for the struggles of this year’s offense, but the coach who showed up in January, who asked for an upgrade at backup TE and C—and was refused on both—should bear all the responsibility for said offense? 

 

Spencer Long, Jarvis Harrison and Kelechi Osemele are all Gase's fault.

[greenwichjetfan]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

So it’s your contention that a man who is considered to be possibly the worst GM in team history, who—over the course of five offseasons—staffed his offensive unit with players who wouldn’t start for any of the teams in this year’s playoffs, bears little to no responsibility for the struggles of this year’s offense, but the coach who showed up in January, who asked for an upgrade at backup TE and C—and was refused on both—should bear all the responsibility for said offense? 

It’s been my contention since 12/31/18 that Gase proved he was garbage as an OC and HC over a 5 year span with three different teams once he was without Peyton, and that Macc had nothing to do with those failures.

Ready for this? The Jets under Macc, Bowles and Bates were better in every offensive category than under Gase! The Jets won more games this year because their SoS was easier than last year’s and their defense was vastly improved from last year.

I too hated Macc, but you being a martyr for Gase just because he ousted him is based purely on emotion and has no roots in logical reasoning. Contending that there can only be one person (Macc) for this year’s offensive failures is stupid. Gase is every bit as culpable, if not more so considering he actually made the offense worse even after Macc was gone. As I said before the year started, I was ok with a losing season if it meant the offense took a big leap. Instead, the worst-case scenario played out: the Jets picked up some easy wins driven by their defense while Gase pulled a Gase and ruined the offense.

[greenwichjetfan]

21 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Spencer Long, Jarvis Harrison and Kelechi Osemele are all Gase's fault.

This is sad 80. See below for why it’s sad:

The 2015-2018 dolphins and the 2014 bears offense were all Macc’s fault.

[Jetsfan80]

11 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

This is sad 80. See below for why it’s sad:

The 2015-2018 dolphins and the 2014 bears offense were all Macc’s fault.

 

I mean, I agree that Gase sucks.  But the 2014 Bears isn't a great reason to rip him.  Cutler threw for 28 TDs under Gase that year (career high).  

[SAR I]

3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Kudos to current street free agent looking for another team Ryan Tannehill 

Yeah, this makes me doubt Adam Gase so not.

SAR I

[Warfish]

1 minute ago, SAR I said:

Yeah, this makes me doubt Adam Gase so not.

SAR I

So where would you rank Gase in terms of AFC HC's?

We know you see Sam as #2 behind only Mahomes.

Where is Gase, would you say, vs. his AFC peers?

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So where would you rank Gase in terms of AFC HC's?

We know you see Sam as #2 behind only Mahomes.

Where is Gase, would you say, vs. his AFC peers?

 

SAR Logic:

 

Jets offense rank: 32nd. 

Gase and Darnold:  Both awesome.  

 

[slimjasi]

3 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

 

No, the C position was a mess because Macc ignored it and when JD came on he had to scramble for scraps, took a chance on Kalil

All the rest is pure BS 

Well, Phil blames “Gase” for that signing and every other signing that hasn’t worked out 

[SAR I]

6 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So where would you rank Gase in terms of AFC HC's?

We know you see Sam as #2 behind only Mahomes.

Where is Gase, would you say, vs. his AFC peers?

He's an INC.

Incomplete.  Can't judge right now.  Head coach is comprised of 2 elements:

#1.  Culture / Fight Level / Overcoming Obstacles / Staying Together As A Team

#2.  Strategy / Gameplanning / Halftime Adjustments / Clock Management

Gase nailed #1 this year, didn't get a fair shot to show #2.  So I'm firmly in the camp of giving him next season to show us what we didn't get a chance to see this year.  Fair?

SAR I

[Warfish]

3 minutes ago, SAR I said:

He's an INC.

Incomplete.  Can't judge right now.  Head coach is comprised of 2 elements:

#1.  Culture / Fight Level / Overcoming Obstacles / Staying Together As A Team

#2.  Strategy / Gameplanning / Halftime Adjustments / Clock Management

Gase nailed #1 this year, didn't get a fair shot to show #2.  So I'm firmly in the camp of giving him next season to show us what we didn't get a chance to see this year.  Fair?

SAR I

Four years as an NFL Head Coach, and he's an incomplete, eh?

How many years does it take to "complete" your evaluation of an NFL Head Coach to a point where you could compare him vs. other coaches?

And just a point:  Gase being back for 2020 is not up for debate, the team has already decided.  So no reason to include (or debate) that.  This question is purely about his place amongst AFC Coaches, in the same way you were able to evaluate sam Darnold (after only two partial seasons) as being the 2nd best in the AFC today.

[SAR I]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

SAR Logic:

Jets offense rank: 32nd. 

Gase and Darnold:  Both awesome.  

Last 8 Games.  Run those numbers.

Don't have the offensive rank, but here's what we have to work with in the meantime:

Gase: 6-2 record is second-best in the NFL, 18 players on IR is tops in the NFL.

Darnold: 93.3 QBR is Top 10 in the NFL.  15 TD's, 4 INT's.  Growth.  "Taking the next step".

We good?  No, I'm not asking you.  I'm telling you.  We good.

SAR I

[Biggs]

Congratulations Mariota for sucking enough to force Vrabel to play Tannehill.   

[SAR I]

17 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Four years as an NFL Head Coach, and he's an incomplete, eh?

I don't judge a head coach on his first gig in the NFL.  As a Jets fan you should know better than anyone that a rookie NFL head coach is the toughest job in all of sports, you get no time and it's all luck of the draw based on how good/bad your personnel is.  Mangini did a great job in patiently building and got whacked so that Rex Ryan could step in and look like a God until it turned out he wasn't.

I judge Adam Gase solely on his time in NJ.  So far, he's an INC.  I feel good about Year 2.  I like what Peyton Manning said about making adjustments to suit his limited skillset and what I saw with this crippled roster and hobbled Darnold reinforces that. 

17 minutes ago, Warfish said:

How many years does it take to "complete" your evaluation of an NFL Head Coach to a point where you could compare him vs. other coaches?

Year 3 in NJ will tell the tale.  I knew by Year 3 what Michaels, Walton, Coslet, Edwards, Mangini, Ryan, and Bowles were.  I expect the same from Gase.  I expect the playoffs in 2020.  So I expect to be pleased.

17 minutes ago, Warfish said:

And just a point:  Gase being back for 2020 is not up for debate, the team has already decided.  So no reason to include (or debate) that.  This question is purely about his place amongst AFC Coaches, in the same way you were able to evaluate sam Darnold (after only two partial seasons) as being the 2nd best in the AFC today.

Belichick
Tomlin
Harbaugh
Reid

Those are your Top 4 AFC head coaches.

O'Brien
Reich
Lynn
Gase
Gruden
McDermott
Vrabel

Those are your Next 7.  I put Gase somewhere in that group.  He's had a 10 win playoff season as a head coach.  He was the OC for a Super Bowl team with a record-breaking offense.  His team believes in him.  He can rally the troops against adversity.  We have a legitimate homefield advantage now.  We can win in late November and December, a major plus for an outdoor team in the northeast.

SAR I
 

[slimjasi]

20 minutes ago, Warfish said:

And just a point:  Gase being back for 2020 is not up for debate, the team has already decided.  So no reason to include that.

True, but a significant percentage of this board has been calling for Gase’s head since we were 0-4, so I think it makes some sense to include that here.

I do think you are right that we have seen enough of Gase elsewhere to point to things we don’t like and be concerned. Gase has had a lot of excuses throughout his career (in particular, tons of injuries, which seem to follow his teams like the plague), and I am not sure how much longer they will save him going forward. 
 

I also agree with SAR that the culture argument is the best thing Gase has going for him. What percentage of teams start 1-7 and finish 7-9 or better? To my knowledge, I only know Carolina having accomplished this (who also finished 7-9), although I assume there are others? Does anyone know? 

I would confidently state this:

There is no way that the players on this team hate Gase the way Manish wants us to believe they do. 
 

Now, whether or not Gase can turn into a good HC here, I’m not sure. I certainly have my doubts.

 

[Warfish]

Just now, slimjasi said:

True, but a significant percentage of this board has been calling for Gase’s head since we were 0-4, so I think it makes some sense to include that here.

I don't, when the question was specifically "how do you, SAR, rank Gase amongst AFC Head Coaches".

Just now, slimjasi said:

I do think you are right that we have seen enough of Gase elsewhere to point to things we don’t like and be concerned. Gase has had a lot of excuses throughout his career (in particular, tons of injuries, which seem to follow his teams like the plague), and I am not sure how much longer they will save him going forward.

 

SAR says we cannot judge him till after his 7th NFL Season as a Head Coach, i.e. after his third season as Jets Head Coach.

So I guess we'll go with that, especially since the odds the Johnsons would move away from Gase before then are effectively nill.

Just now, slimjasi said:

I also agree with SAR that the culture argument is the best thing Gase has going for him. What percentage of teams start 1-7 and finish 7-9 or better? To my knowledge, I only know Carolina having accomplished this (who also finished 7-9), although I assume there are others? Does anyone know?

I have no idea.  Is going 1-7, being eliminated, then going 6-2 vs. mostly the worst teams in the NFL a good thing?

Just now, slimjasi said:

I would confidently state this:

There is no way that the players on this team hate Gase the way Manish wants us to believe they do. 

A few almost assuredly do.  The majority almost assuredly do not.

Just now, slimjasi said:

Now, whether or not Gase can turn into a good HC, I’m not sure. I certainly have my doubts.

Well, I guess we'll know this time in 2022, if SAR is right.

[Xtina]

15 minutes ago, SAR I said:

I don't judge a head coach on his first gig in the NFL.  As a Jets fan you should know better than anyone that a rookie NFL head coach is the toughest job in all of sports, you get no time and it's all luck of the draw based on how good/bad your personnel is.  Mangini did a great job in patiently building and got whacked so that Rex Ryan could step in and look like a God until it turned out he wasn't.

I judge Adam Gase solely on his time in NJ.  So far, he's an INC.  I feel good about Year 2.  I like what Peyton Manning said about making adjustments to suit his limited skillset and what I saw with this crippled roster and hobbled Darnold reinforces that. 

Year 3 in NJ will tell the tale.  I knew by Year 3 what Michaels, Walton, Coslet, Edwards, Mangini, Ryan, and Bowles were.  I expect the same from Gase.  I expect the playoffs in 2020.  So I expect to be pleased.

Belichick
Tomlin
Harbaugh
Reid

Those are your Top 4 AFC head coaches.

O'Brien
Reich
Lynn
Gase
Gruden
McDermott
Vrabel

Those are your Next 7.  I put Gase somewhere in that group.  He's had a 10 win playoff season as a head coach.  He was the OC for a Super Bowl team with a record-breaking offense.  His team believes in him.  He can rally the troops against adversity.  We have a legitimate homefield advantage now.  We can win in late November and December, a major plus for an outdoor team in the northeast.

SAR I
 

This is how sime

 

16 minutes ago, SAR I said:

I don't judge a head coach on his first gig in the NFL.  As a Jets fan you should know better than anyone that a rookie NFL head coach is the toughest job in all of sports, you get no time and it's all luck of the draw based on how good/bad your personnel is.  Mangini did a great job in patiently building and got whacked so that Rex Ryan could step in and look like a God until it turned out he wasn't.

I judge Adam Gase solely on his time in NJ.  So far, he's an INC.  I feel good about Year 2.  I like what Peyton Manning said about making adjustments to suit his limited skillset and what I saw with this crippled roster and hobbled Darnold reinforces that. 

Year 3 in NJ will tell the tale.  I knew by Year 3 what Michaels, Walton, Coslet, Edwards, Mangini, Ryan, and Bowles were.  I expect the same from Gase.  I expect the playoffs in 2020.  So I expect to be pleased.

Belichick
Tomlin
Harbaugh
Reid

Those are your Top 4 AFC head coaches.

O'Brien
Reich
Lynn
Gase
Gruden
McDermott
Vrabel

Those are your Next 7.  I put Gase somewhere in that group.  He's had a 10 win playoff season as a head coach.  He was the OC for a Super Bowl team with a record-breaking offense.  His team believes in him.  He can rally the troops against adversity.  We have a legitimate homefield advantage now.  We can win in late November and December, a major plus for an outdoor team in the northeast.

SAR I
 

This is how someone like Gase manages to get a job 

[SAR I]

7 minutes ago, Xtina said:

This is how someone like Gase manages to get a job 

You mean that as a shot against Gase but you are actually spot-on in the big picture.

There aren't many great head coaches.  There are 4 in the AFC.  Meaning the next 12 are various stages of suck until they get their rosters right and can prove/disprove that they are NFL caliber.

Would you trade Gase straight up for Lynn?  He was a rock star a year ago, now his team fell to pieces and he's on the wrong side of the ball.  Reich?  Talk of the league two years ago, now a bum without Luck.  Vrabel?  One-hit wonder, another defensive guy.  Gruden and O'Brien?  We've seen their ceilings methinks.

Adam Gase is probably Top 8 in the AFC.  That's pretty sad.  No, not because of Gases ability; because the NFL does such a bad job of manufacturing quality head coaches. 

SAR I

[greenwichjetfan]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I mean, I agree that Gase sucks.  But the 2014 Bears isn't a great reason to rip him.  Cutler threw for 28 TDs under Gase that year (career high).  

Cutler threw 21 TDs under Gase on the bears while the league average that year was 26.3 passing TDs.

The 28 TD season you’re referring to for Cutler was the year before. Aaron Kramer was OC and Gase was still in Den. So really, it's a great reason to rip him, because he brought Cutler down to below average in just one offseason. And get this! The next year when Gase moved to Miami and brought Cutler along, Cutler had the second worst season of his entire career!

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, slimjasi said:

Well, Phil blames “Gase” for that signing and every other signing that hasn’t worked out 

Seeing a trend? 

?

[T0mShane]

2 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

while Gase pulled a Gase and ruined the offense.

[T0mShane]

1 hour ago, SAR I said:

There aren't many great head coaches.  There are 4 in the AFC.  Meaning the next 12 are various stages of suck until they get their rosters right and can prove/disprove that they are NFL caliber.

Jets fans: Let’s fire Gase!

 

Also Jets fans: Is Norv Turner still alive because 

[UnitedWhofans]

1 hour ago, Xtina said:

 

 

This is how someone like Gase manages to get a job 

Truth be told successful NFL coaches are very rare.

[SAR I]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Jets fans: Let’s fire Gase!

NFL history shows that there are far more Super Bowl winning head coaches who their teams stuck with through thick and thin for 5+ years than there are Super Bowl winning head coaches who were recent hires.  Why?  Perhaps because they are great, that's possible. 

Or perhaps it's primarily because they are given the time necessary to build a team in their image, a team whose abilities are in sync with what the coach is trying to do.  I like patience.  I'd like to try that for a change.

SAR I