can we stop with the reporting structure nonsense

[Savage69]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Hey while you're talking Mods, make sure @The Crusher is ok, haven't heard from him in a while.

The all you can eat buffet opened up by him he's chowing down before they close it again. And no one will tell him to leave when he's eating..

[Maxman]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Being a reformed emotional Jets fan myself, I gotta say Darnold has created more feels than any player ever has in my lifetime. 

IMO Chad still has him beat in that regard.

[SAR I]

1 hour ago, Maxman said:

Well Douglas might fail, most of them do. But he isn't giving out Trumaine Johnson like Macc contracts. He has a different plan for building this team.

So you are wrong, once again.

His plan for building this team is whatever Christopher Johnson says.  A year ago, it was "patience" and "rebuilding through the draft".

The firing of Adam Gase and the shifting of all public responsibility from Gase to Douglas changes things markedly.  If we open 0-4 next year, it's Douglas' face on the billboard.  He knows this.  If he doesn't, just wait until after his presser or the next time the media vultures need a story.

What I thought was a patient chummy partnership between Johnson, Gase, and Douglas was wrong.  What it now appears to be is an impatient political relationship between Johnson, Elhai, and Douglas.  That ain't good.  Now Douglas can't be patient.  He's got to have urgency.  8-8 isn't hard.  13-3 is hard.  But it takes time.

SAR I

[jgb]

2 hours ago, Maxman said:

IMO Chad still has him beat in that regard.

Good point think I blocked that from memory. Oh how I yearn to be emotionally invested again by anything Jets related.

[Maxman]

3 hours ago, SAR I said:

His plan for building this team is whatever Christopher Johnson says.  A year ago, it was "patience" and "rebuilding through the draft".

The firing of Adam Gase and the shifting of all public responsibility from Gase to Douglas changes things markedly.  If we open 0-4 next year, it's Douglas' face on the billboard.  He knows this.  If he doesn't, just wait until after his presser or the next time the media vultures need a story.

What I thought was a patient chummy partnership between Johnson, Gase, and Douglas was wrong.  What it now appears to be is an impatient political relationship between Johnson, Elhai, and Douglas.  That ain't good.  Now Douglas can't be patient.  He's got to have urgency.  8-8 isn't hard.  13-3 is hard.  But it takes time.

SAR I

I read every word from the press conference. You can keep spinning a false narrative but you are just wasting time.

I guess I am talking to the only Jets fan that said Gase wouldn't be fired. So I am the one wasting time.

Anyhow CJ said it, Douglas opinion is the one that matters. Also funny that CJ who you have praised as a leader is losing control the second his brother gets kicked out of the UK.

[Defense Wins Championships]

14 hours ago, Warfish said:

Go back to your old account.

He's too embarrassed of himself. 

He was to Sam Darnold; what SAR is to Adam Gase. 

So now he's trying to "hide". 

?

[jamesr]

19 hours ago, slimjasi said:

Agreed completely. 

The reporting structure thing is nonsense. The Rams have the same structure and were in the Super Bowl a couple of years ago. 

The biggest single reason the Jets suck is because they hired two historically bad GMs (Idzik and Mac) within two years of one another. 

Seattle have the same structure. KC have the same structure. SF have the same structure.

Hasn't held them back much, as far as I can see.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

The structure isn't inherently bad, but it becomes a disaster when the GM and head coach are not seeing eye to eye. One example is the GM signing Le'Veon Bell for a head coach who doesn't have a use for him. In this case, Macc was an awful GM and the organizational structure made it worse. 

[Jet Nut]

13 hours ago, SAR I said:

The firing of Adam Gase and the shifting of all public responsibility from Gase to Douglas changes things markedly.  If we open 0-4 next year, it's Douglas' face on the billboard.  He knows this.  If he doesn't, just wait until after his presser or the next time the media vultures need a story.

With a HC who has half a clue we dont open 0-4, only the man of florhum park is that awful at his job.  

 

[pdxgreen]

It's important have one person in charge because you want a coach who has a relationship with a GM that doesn't get superseded (by a relationship with an owner.)  Esp. if your owners are for the most part.... gold plated morons.  Even if the team has success that can all be undone by a phone call or interview that goes bad.  Making the GM A-1 big boss totally gets around that.  If the owner defers to him on certain matters then the coach can do what he does and the GM can do what he does. 

[IndianaJet]

Well...if it wasn't for the structure, we might still be stuck with this guy:

Gase's direct line to the owner was his downfall....so it has some benefits.

[IndianaJet]

1 hour ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

The structure isn't inherently bad, but it becomes a disaster when the GM and head coach are not seeing eye to eye. One example is the GM signing Le'Veon Bell for a head coach who doesn't have a use for him. In this case, Macc was an awful GM and the organizational structure made it worse. 

How does the structure effect this though?  If we had the structure everyone wants, in that scenario GM is the coaches' boss and if the GM wants Le'Veon Bell, the GM signs Le'Veon Bell because the coach does what the GM says.

The structure had nothing to do with Macc and Gase's inability to get on the same page.

And that's the real problem...it's not the structure....it's the fact that for 10+ years we've had crappy coaches, crappy GMs AND these crappy people were never on the same page.

[SAR I]

11 hours ago, Maxman said:

Anyhow CJ said it, Douglas opinion is the one that matters. Also funny that CJ who you have praised as a leader is losing control the second his brother gets kicked out of the UK.

The dysfunction I thought we were done with has come back.  If you are a head coaching candidate looking at this from the outside, the Jets job is worse now than it was back in 2018, and its because we are never in the right position to get a strong head coach.  Just like right now.  Find the weakest HC candidate on the list, that's the guy we're going to get.

SAR I

[jgb]

double
 

[jgb]

11 hours ago, Maxman said:

I guess I am talking to the only Jets fan that said Gase wouldn't be fired. So I am the one wasting time.

 

 

11 minutes ago, SAR I said:

The dysfunction I thought we were done with has come back.  If you are a head coaching candidate looking at this from the outside, the Jets job is worse now than it was back in 2018, and its because we are never in the right position to get a strong head coach.  Just like right now.  Find the weakest HC candidate on the list, that's the guy we're going to get.

SAR I

The optimism is: (1) JD will control the process -- early evidence is that he will, although like you I remain skeptical; and (2) that Jets will pony up this time to get their guy and actually *gasp* engage in and win a bidding war, if necessary. CJ did so with JD. Never saw Woody do that. I hope we finalize this search before Woody returns and the "Jets don't want to be rushed" is just some PR flack boilerplate.

 

[Maxman]

9 minutes ago, SAR I said:

The dysfunction I thought we were done with has come back.  If you are a head coaching candidate looking at this from the outside, the Jets job is worse now than it was back in 2018, and its because we are never in the right position to get a strong head coach.  Just like right now.  Find the weakest HC candidate on the list, that's the guy we're going to get.

SAR I

Ok, but you are wrong again. Otherwise though good post.

[SAR I]

Just now, jgb said:

The optimism is: (1) JD will control the process -- early evidence is that he will, although like you I remain skeptical; and (2) that Jets will pony up this time to get their guy and actually *gasp* engage in and win a bidding war. CJ did so with JD. Never saw Woody do that. I hope we finalize this search before Woody returns.

I'm usually Mr. Optimistic, but not right now.  Today's Douglas press conference is going to tell me a lot.  It's either going to show that he's an Alpha and is qualified to run the entire franchise or its going to show that he's the meek nerd we've seen to date and is in over his head.  You can look at guys like John Davidson, Jeff Gorton, and Brian Cashman and know after 30 seconds of hearing them speak that they are ass-kicking Alpha's.  

I am certain that as a scout, Douglas is a good collegiate player-picker.  I'm good there.  But the guy choosing a head coach?  Wha?  What qualifications does he have exactly?  And if we're being honest, he took a team with a handful of playmakers that went 7-9 and created a mess that was lucky to go 2-14.  If CJ wanted to win right now, why get rid of Jamal, Robbie, and Leonard?  Why couldn't he convince Mosely to play?

Joe Douglas came here because he thought Gase was a good head coach.  Think about that as he picks his replacement.

SAR I

[jgb]

1 minute ago, SAR I said:

I'm usually Mr. Optimistic, but not right now.  Today's Douglas press conference is going to tell me a lot.  It's either going to show that he's an Alpha and is qualified to run the entire franchise or its going to show that he's the meek nerd we've seen to date and is in over his head.  You can look at guys like John Davidson, Jeff Gorton, and Brian Cashman and know after 30 seconds of hearing them speak that they are ass-kicking Alpha's.  

I am certain that as a scout, Douglas is a good collegiate player-picker.  I'm good there.  But the guy choosing a head coach?  Wha?  What qualifications does he have exactly?  And if we're being honest, he took a team with a handful of playmakers that went 7-9 and created a mess that was lucky to go 2-14.  If CJ wanted to win right now, why get rid of Jamal, Robbie, and Leonard?  Why couldn't he convince Mosely to play?

Joe Douglas came here because he thought Gase was a good head coach.  Think about that as he picks his replacement.

SAR I

To be real fair no GM is pre-qualified to choose a HC until they do it successfully. However, we know the Johnsons are not qualified. Let's hope JD gets an unfettered shot and scores. His future here depends on it.

[OilfieldJet]

Management structure matters in any organization. Management quality also matters. In our case, because the Johnson's are pathetic and inept, structure is extremely important.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

1 hour ago, IndianaJet said:

How does the structure effect this though?  If we had the structure everyone wants, in that scenario GM is the coaches' boss and if the GM wants Le'Veon Bell, the GM signs Le'Veon Bell because the coach does what the GM says.

The structure had nothing to do with Macc and Gase's inability to get on the same page.

And that's the real problem...it's not the structure....it's the fact that for 10+ years we've had crappy coaches, crappy GMs AND these crappy people were never on the same page.

I'll say it again. Macc signed Bell. Bell is not a fit in Gase's offense. When the GM and head coach are not on the same page, you have a GM signing players that the HC doesn't want. Signing a TE for a run and shoot offense would be an extreme example, but it's the same premise. 

[IndianaJet]

5 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

I'll say it again. Macc signed Bell. Bell is not a fit in Gase's offense. When the GM and head coach are not on the same page, you have a GM signing players that the HC doesn't want. Signing a TE for a run and shoot offense would be an extreme example, but it's the same premise. 

And I'll say it again....the GM and the HC not being on the same page has nothing to do with the structure.

If the HC reports to the GM and the GM says he wants Bell, even though the HC doesn't like Bell, the GM still signs Bell and the HC has to deal with it. 

Let's say the Jets change the structure this off season and Douglas hires Arthur Smith to be the head coach.  Arthur Smith reports to Douglas.

Arthur Smith doesn't like Justin Fields and would rather draft Sewell with the 2nd pick.

Douglas doesn't want to risk his career on missing out on Fields and takes Fields with the 2nd pick.

The structure is right.....but the HC and GM aren't on the same page...now the HC has to deal with a QB he didn't want.

The structure of the organization has zero to do with this scenario.

[jamesr]

2 hours ago, pdxgreen said:

It's important have one person in charge because you want a coach who has a relationship with a GM that doesn't get superseded (by a relationship with an owner.)  Esp. if your owners are for the most part.... gold plated morons.  Even if the team has success that can all be undone by a phone call or interview that goes bad.  Making the GM A-1 big boss totally gets around that.  If the owner defers to him on certain matters then the coach can do what he does and the GM can do what he does. 

The reason the Johnsons moved away from this structure was because Rex didn't agree with Idzik, but wouldn't go over his head to complain to the Johnsons. In essence it gave the GM too much power.

As said above, if you have the right GM / coach, this isn't an issue. But when you don't, no structure will save you. It may just help you get rid of the misfits quicker - like it just did with Macc & Gase.  

[Lith]

1 hour ago, IndianaJet said:

How does the structure effect this though?  If we had the structure everyone wants, in that scenario GM is the coaches' boss and if the GM wants Le'Veon Bell, the GM signs Le'Veon Bell because the coach does what the GM says.

The structure had nothing to do with Macc and Gase's inability to get on the same page.

And that's the real problem...it's not the structure....it's the fact that for 10+ years we've had crappy coaches, crappy GMs AND these crappy people were never on the same page.

The problem with the structure is that Gase and JD both reported to Chris, who is not a football guy.  So if the coach and GM are not aligned on a player, you don't have a football guy that they both report to to help resolve differences on players. 

So you end up with a highly paid RB that the coach does not want to use. To me, the structure can work if both guys report to a football guy rather than an owner with limited subject matter knowledge.  The strength of the 3rd party they both report to is what determines success or failure of the reporting relationship.

Just my two cents.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

13 minutes ago, IndianaJet said:

And I'll say it again....the GM and the HC not being on the same page has nothing to do with the structure.

If the HC reports to the GM and the GM says he wants Bell, even though the HC doesn't like Bell, the GM still signs Bell and the HC has to deal with it. 

Let's say the Jets change the structure this off season and Douglas hires Arthur Smith to be the head coach.  Arthur Smith reports to Douglas.

Arthur Smith doesn't like Justin Fields and would rather draft Sewell with the 2nd pick.

Douglas doesn't want to risk his career on missing out on Fields and takes Fields with the 2nd pick.

The structure is right.....but the HC and GM aren't on the same page...now the HC has to deal with a QB he didn't want.

The structure of the organization has zero to do with this scenario.

I'll say it again. IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE STRUCTURE.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

2 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

now the HC has to deal with a QB he didn't want

Thank you for proving my point. An organizational structure that lets a GM hire a QB that a HC doesn't fit their offense is EXACTLY why the structure doesn't work when the GM and HC are not on the same page. 

[IndianaJet]

3 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

I'll say it again. IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE STRUCTURE.

Ok....I tried to keep it simple but it appears you just don't get it.  Done with this argument. 

[jgb]

20 minutes ago, IndianaJet said:

And I'll say it again....the GM and the HC not being on the same page has nothing to do with the structure.

If the HC reports to the GM and the GM says he wants Bell, even though the HC doesn't like Bell, the GM still signs Bell and the HC has to deal with it. 

Let's say the Jets change the structure this off season and Douglas hires Arthur Smith to be the head coach.  Arthur Smith reports to Douglas.

Arthur Smith doesn't like Justin Fields and would rather draft Sewell with the 2nd pick.

Douglas doesn't want to risk his career on missing out on Fields and takes Fields with the 2nd pick.

The structure is right.....but the HC and GM aren't on the same page...now the HC has to deal with a QB he didn't want.

The structure of the organization has zero to do with this scenario.

  

6 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

I'll say it again. IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE STRUCTURE.

 

The structure wouldn't be a problem if the owners weren't a problem. See, you're both right. Now shake hands and tell each other you're sorry.

[Matt39]

20 minutes ago, IndianaJet said:

And I'll say it again....the GM and the HC not being on the same page has nothing to do with the structure.

If the HC reports to the GM and the GM says he wants Bell, even though the HC doesn't like Bell, the GM still signs Bell and the HC has to deal with it. 

Let's say the Jets change the structure this off season and Douglas hires Arthur Smith to be the head coach.  Arthur Smith reports to Douglas.

Arthur Smith doesn't like Justin Fields and would rather draft Sewell with the 2nd pick.

Douglas doesn't want to risk his career on missing out on Fields and takes Fields with the 2nd pick.

The structure is right.....but the HC and GM aren't on the same page...now the HC has to deal with a QB he didn't want.

The structure of the organization has zero to do with this scenario.

You would hope these types of things would be ironed out in the interview process. There are always going to be disputes internally over players, the final decision maker or third party being the Johnsons is what hasn’t worked. It’s disjointed.  

[IndianaJet]

7 minutes ago, Lith said:

The problem with the structure is that Gase and JD both reported to Chris, who is not a football guy.  So if the coach and GM are not aligned on a player, you don't have a football guy that they both report to to help resolve differences on players. 

So you end up with a highly paid RB that the coach does not want to use. To me, the structure can work if both guys report to a football guy rather than an owner with limited subject matter knowledge.  The strength of the 3rd party they both report to is what determines success or failure of the reporting relationship.

Just my two cents.

But in this structure....BOTH guys don't report to a football guy.  The HC reports to the GM...a football guy....the GM reports to the owner.

If the GM wants a player and the HC doesn't the GM wins...there's no "football" guy to go to, to resolve the difference.

The structure has nothing to do with helping a situation where the GM and the coach are not on the same page.  If that's the case, the GM is the boss, the GM wins the dispute and the HC has to deal with it.

To go back to the original point, the structure had nothing to do with the disagreement between Macc and Gase in signing Bell....because even if the structure was Gase reports to Macc, Macc reports to Johnson, Macc still signs Bell over Gase's objection.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

5 minutes ago, IndianaJet said:

Ok....I tried to keep it simple but it appears you just don't get it.  Done with this argument. 

Me too. I made it simple for you and you somehow couldn't understand. 

[Waka Flocka Flacco]

1 minute ago, Matt39 said:

You would hope these types of things would be ironed out in the interview process. There are always going to be disputes internally over players, the final decision maker or third party being the Johnsons is what hasn’t worked. It’s disjointed.  

It's not even a matter of disputes. Even given everybody's good faith and best efforts and broad consensus, the fact that Douglas knows there's a possibility that he's drafting for a totally different coaching staff next year matters a lot. You can see what an impact it had on free agency with only McGovern getting a multiyear commitment.

[Maxman]

Just now, Waka Flocka Flacco said:

It's not even a matter of disputes. Even given everybody's good faith and best efforts and broad consensus, the fact that Douglas knows there's a possibility that he's drafting for a totally different coaching staff next year matters a lot. You can see what an impact it had on free agency with only McGovern getting a multiyear commitment.

That is a good point, really puts the Jets in a much better position if they make the right moves this offseason. If is always a big word with the Jets but I think the head coaching job is more attractive because of the roster flexibility and cap room. As well as draft capital of course.

[xboxjets]

1 hour ago, IndianaJet said:

How does the structure effect this though?  If we had the structure everyone wants, in that scenario GM is the coaches' boss and if the GM wants Le'Veon Bell, the GM signs Le'Veon Bell because the coach does what the GM says.

The structure had nothing to do with Macc and Gase's inability to get on the same page.

And that's the real problem...it's not the structure....it's the fact that for 10+ years we've had crappy coaches, crappy GMs AND these crappy people were never on the same page.

To be on the same page you can't have shotgun marriages where the coach is trying to save his job with wins in a lost season while the gm is thinking longer term.

[peebag]

18 hours ago, Maxman said:

IMO Chad still has him beat in that regard.

I canz throwes deez duckz, quack quack

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

5 minutes ago, jgb said:

  

 

The structure wouldn't be a problem if the owners weren't a problem. See, you're both right. Now shake hands and tell each other you're sorry.

My original point stands. The structure isn't inherently bad. It becomes bad when the GM and the HC are not on the same page, AND when they report to an incompetent owner, which circles back to the structure not working when the GM and HC are not on the same page.