I don't want Watson, I want a better team

[Paradis]

12 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Huh?

You forgot to include if Darnold becomes incredible 

[greenwichjetfan]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

People have been so used to terrible Jets QB play for the last 50 years that they think there are more holes than there are on the Jets roster, year in and year out.  Many of the supposed holes on this roster will no longer be deemed holes with Watson under center.

2 hours ago, Philc1 said:

How did those holes in the Texans roster look last season?

 

[Philc1]

3 hours ago, Butterfield said:

Corey Linsley would be an excellent signing.  David Bakhtiari is another but has been hurt. Didn’t they sign Ricky Wagner a few years ago?

Yeah I was gonna say.  Bakhtiari is one of the most well known LT’s in the game

[Philc1]

1 hour ago, kevinc855 said:

You all wanted 0-16 for Trevor....

NOW all of a sudden a QB doesn't change the team? lol

Trevor is better than Watson and only would have cost us one draft pick

[Skeet Ulrich]

2 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Trevor is better than Watson

This might be one of the worst takes I've heard in a long, long while. 

[bitonti]

8 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Yeah I was gonna say.  Bakhtiari is one of the most well known LT’s in the game

He's the highest paid offensive lineman in the world at the moment 

 

 

[Philc1]

5 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

This might be one of the worst takes I've heard in a long, long while. 

k

[bitonti]

3 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Keep the 2 pick, draft Sewell and trade both Seattle firsts plus Sam for Watson

[Philc1]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

He's the highest paid offensive lineman in the world at the moment 

 

 

Yes but name me the first round pick offensive linemen on those back2back Jet AFCG teams

 

You can’t? Haha.  Owned!  Draft Fields!

[Dunnie]

19 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Can anyone outside Texas name 3 players on Houston's defense that weren't impossibly awful last year? Not 3 starters who were good; just 3 who weren't practice-squad level awful. 

1. Watt isn't the 16-20 sack guy he was but it could be that he has no help and the coverage is so bad at both the LB and secondary levels he's not getting coverage sacks, but he's still very solid. 13 hurries, 9 QB knockdowns, 27 QB pressures, and even intercepted a pass.
2. CB Roby was good in coverage in 2019, but being merely pretty-bad in 2020 makes him Houston's 2nd-best starting defender, and he missed almost half the season (again) anyway. At least he stopped whiffing on tackles, but 9.5 games isn't enough from the only other defender who wasn't comically bad. 

Houston's other starters on D? 

1. DE Carlos Watkins is a backup. You've never heard of him, admit it. After this post you never will again.
2. Mercilus was worse than a backup. Whiffed on 19% of his tackle attempts. Created pressure on 10 of his 35 blitzes.
3. NT Dunn is (or should be) a backup. DRob was a better NT ffs.
4. ILB Adams is a backup. Sucks, gave up 80% completion against, and missed 9% of his tackles
5. ILB Cunningham had a zillion tackles but his missed tackle rate is about 10% and gave up 86% completions against at 12 yards a pop.  
6. CB Hargreaves was a bust with Tampa, and he's no better for Houston. QBs had a 109 passer rating throwing his way, on top of his 13% missed tackle rate
7. CB/NB Lonnie Johnson can run like the wind but the completion percentage against was 73% but is the only Texan DB who didn't give up a TD. Also missed just 8% of his tackles, making him aces for the Texans in that dept as well.
8. SS Reid is both a QB's and a RB's delight: 110.2 rating when throwing his way, and 14% missed tackle rate
9. FS Eric Murray is somehow even worse than Reid, and might be the NFL's worst defender. Not this year; this century: 80% completion against & 6 TDs surrendered for a 135 QB rating against, on top of a 14.5% missed tackle rate. Woof!

Houston's pass D = 70% completion for 4100 yds, 30 TDs, 3 INTs passer rating against = 107.9

Houston's run D = over 2500 yards at 5.2 ypc and 24 TDs

That's the main reason why Houston was 4-12. 

They were a crap team that faced 10 playoff opponents. Then throw in injuries, bad coaching, and probably 4/5 of their OL being even worse than the Jets.

So enough with the "We'll be 4-12 with Watson because Houston was 4-12 with Watson" nonsense. On defense, at least, their team was even worse than ours was and certainly worse than ours will be in 2021. They were a 30something JJ Watt and 10 stiffs. My HS could score on them. 

EXACTLY : BEcause they could not afford anyone on D do to Mr Watson unjustified Mega Deal.

[Dunnie]

9 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

This might be one of the worst takes I've heard in a long, long while. 

True - Should be Trevor OR Wilson could be much better than a QB that has had little success in teh post season and whos number we inflated do to one inspirational WR.

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, Philc1 said:

Yes but name me the first round pick offensive linemen on those back2back Jet AFCG teams

 

You can’t? Haha.  Owned!  Draft Fields!

There's many great arguments out there

the Jets need to spend 2 pick on a qb because we can't name the linemen on Rodgers team a 24 pick

The Jets need to trade 2 and a couple more firsts for Watson who was a former 12 pick 

[Philc1]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

There's many great arguments out there

the Jets need to spend 2 pick on a qb because we can't name the linemen on Rodgers team a 24 pick

The Jets need to trade 2 and a couple more firsts for Watson who was a former 12 pick 

No we now need to trade the 2 pick plus another 4-5 first round picks and Quinnen Williams for Deshaun Watson

[Skeet Ulrich]

5 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

True - Should be Trevor OR Wilson could be much better than a QB that has had little success in teh post season and whos number we inflated do to one inspirational WR.

Why did Watson have his best year statistically without Hopkins? The Texans were just in the divisional round last year and were up 24-3 before BoB went BoB.

I'm not sure how McNair allowing a team chaplain to run his team is Watson's fault.

 

Again - I find it highly comical that you think that Trevor Lawrence(who has yet to take snap 1 in the NFL) is currently better than a guy who has already had established success in the NFL(multiple pro bowls, won divisions, won playoff games, led the NFL in passing).

 

I get it. You don't like Watson for whatever reason. You don't want him on the Jets, that's fair - but don't lie and misrepresent his ability. It makes your point look foolish.

[JustInFudge]

There is an old saying in the NFL that teams dont just get better without better QB play.  Look at the Dolphins.  They've done everything right except QB.  Good lawd if they get Watson, we're proper ****ed.  Look at the Washington Football team, 5-1 with Alex Smith.  2-9 with other QB's.  Look at the Bucs, missed the playoffs, got Brady, in the NFL Champ game.  Look at the Colts, missed the playoffs, got Rivers, went to the playoffs.  Tenn. was mediocre till Tenn. took over.  Steelers were 8-8 w/o Big Ben, 12-4 with him.

It's Brady vs. Rodgers and Mahomes vs. Allen (who played like a top 10 QB) - Watson is in that category.  Why is this trivial?  We have Sam Darnold.  As much as I love Fields as a prospect, the odds are that he's Watson are extremely low.  You can still build a great team around him, the idea that you cant is just silly paranoia.

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, Paradis said:

You forgot to include if Darnold becomes incredible 

I mean, I also didn't include "what if all the lakes, rivers, and oceans suddenly turn to chocolate" as part of my post, because both are equally likely and thus irrelevant to the discussion.

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

One underrated benefit of trading for Watson is that instantaneously, we no longer have the worst starting QB in the NFL.

But at what cost, EY.  At what cost.  Do you not even CARE about the Left Guard spot?

[DoubleDown]

3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

People have been so used to terrible Jets QB play for the last 50 years that they think there are more holes than there are on the Jets roster, year in and year out.  Many of the supposed holes on this roster will no longer be deemed holes with Watson under center.

The Jets have 57 players under contract in 2021 with about 25 of those players practice squad quality or lower.

They literally have holes all over the roster. They are going to have to draft and sign a large number of players just to field a complete team.

[DoubleDown]

6 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

I agree, except the part about finding starters with mid-round picks.  Those are luxuries.  You need starters with your first two picks, and good depth players (you hope) with later picks.  Starters are a luxury in the 4th-7th rounds.

Typically yes, but in the context of trading multiple premium picks for Watson, they WILL need to hit on quality starters with mid round picks.

[Jetsfan80]

9 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

The Jets have 57 players under contract in 2021 with about 25 of those players practice squad quality or lower.

They literally have holes all over the roster. They are going to have to draft and sign a large number of players just to field a complete team.

And luckily we have a ton of draft picks and cap space to do just that.  Even after a hypothetical trade for Watson, this would still be a true statement.

But even prior to doing this, there are still some nice pieces on this roster.  Becton, Quinnen Williams, Mims, Crowder, Marcus Maye (if brought back), Bryce Hall, Franklin-Myers, Bryce Huff, Luvu....there's some decent pieces in there.  And who knows, maybe we'll get something out of Mosley.  Not counting on it at all, just throwing it out there.

And don't sleep on some of the 2020 draft class members we haven't really seen anything from just yet.  This past season was highly unusual when it came to the shortened offseason, the coaching staff doing poorly, etc.  Saleh + a full offseason will reveal that there are more pieces in that 2020 draft class that are useful than we currently think.  Perine, Ashtyn Davis, Zuniga, Cameron Clark.....at least 2 of these will look a LOT better in year 2 of their respective careers, and end up at least decent starters in the long run.

[DoubleDown]

12 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And luckily we have a ton of draft picks and cap space to do just that.  Even after a hypothetical trade for Watson, this would still be a true statement.

As I said in my original post, it decreases the margin for error. The team would need to hit on a larger percentage of draft picks and free agent signings.

In 2021 alone, you lose one or two premium draft picks and $15m in cap space. In future years, more premium draft picks are gone and the cap hit goes up substantially.

It's going to come down to what compensation is given up. If it is within reason you can certainly make it work. But some people seem to have the attitude of "at all costs" which makes no sense for a Jets team in its current state.

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

As I said in my original post, it decreases the margin for error. In 2021 alone, you lose one or two premium draft picks and $15m in cap space. In future years, more premium draft picks are gone and the cap hit goes up substantially.

It's going to come down to what compensation is given up. If it is within reason you can certainly make it work. But some people seem to have the attitude of "at all costs" which makes no sense for a Jets team in its current state.

The reason this is OK, in my view, is because Watson is so young.  Even if the Jets have to sacrifice some of the ability to surround Watson with talent early on, there will still be many years for the Jets to be a perennial contender.  Their Super Bowl window would end up being anywhere from a 6-10 year period, depending on how long Watson lasts in the league.  

So even in an armageddon situation (draft-wise) where the Jets end up with no more than 2 first round picks over the next 3 drafts, all that would do is push the date back a little bit on when the Jets can contend for a title.  It wouldn't wreck the Jets in the long run.  

We both agree that I hope Watson can be had for something reasonable.  Like, say, the # 2 pick, one other 1st rounder, and a mid-rounder or 2.  But if it requires # 2 and two or even three other 1st rounders, I'm still on board with that.  Because a young franchise QB is priceless.

[CanadaSteve]

25 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

Typically yes, but in the context of trading multiple premium picks for Watson, they WILL need to hit on quality starters with mid round picks.

Again, not if they do it smart.

You  can trade #23 and 32 this year, and one of the #1's next year along with number two.  That still leaves us with a #1 next year, and the #2 overall pick this year, which can basically recoup all that and more.

 

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Again, not if they do it smart.

You  can trade #23 and 32 this year, and one of the #1's next year along with number two.  That still leaves us with a #1 next year, and the #2 overall pick this year, which can basically recoup all that and more.

I can't imagine the Texans doing this trade without getting the # 2 pick in the deal.  That would have to be a non-starter.  The Texans need to immediately replace Watson with a QB.  Otherwise the end result might be the NFL forcing McNair to sell the team in the aftermath of that disaster.

Hell, a sale of the team might happen regardless of how this plays out.

[DoubleDown]

36 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The reason this is OK, in my view, is because Watson is so young.  Even if the Jets have to sacrifice some of the ability to surround Watson with talent early on, there will still be many years for the Jets to be a perennial contender.  Their Super Bowl window would end up being anywhere from a 6-10 year period, depending on how long Watson lasts in the league.  

So even in an armageddon situation (draft-wise) where the Jets end up with no more than 2 first round picks over the next 3 drafts, all that would do is push the date back a little bit on when the Jets can contend for a title.  It wouldn't wreck the Jets in the long run.  

We both agree that I hope Watson can be had for something reasonable.  Like, say, the # 2 pick, one other 1st rounder, and a mid-rounder or 2.  But if it requires # 2 and two or even three other 1st rounders, I'm still on board with that.  Because a young franchise QB is priceless.

My feeling is the Texans will demand at least #2 overall, 2021 2nd rounder, 2022 1st rounder, and 2023 1st rounder. That is a ton of draft capital, and it significantly lowers the Jets ability to fill their pipeline with young premium talent.

This doesn't even take into account the cap hits which reduce your ability to sign quality free agents as well.

This is a team that needs a starting quarterback, three new WRs including a #1, two new starters on the OL, a #1 RB, and possibly a #1 TE. And this is just on the offensive side of the ball.

People seem to be ignoring the repercussions of a mega trade for one player. Can it be executed successfully? Sure, but it makes the rebuild much tougher in the sense that you don't have much of a margin for error with your remaining resources.

I am higher on Wilson than most of this board, but it's not crazy to think that in 5 years:

Wilson + two 1st round picks + one 2nd round pick + $100m in cap space > Deshaun Watson

[CanadaSteve]

26 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I can't imagine the Texans doing this trade without getting the # 2 pick in the deal.  That would have to be a non-starter.  The Texans need to immediately replace Watson with a QB.  Otherwise the end result might be the NFL forcing McNair to sell the team in the aftermath of that disaster.

Hell, a sale of the team might happen regardless of how this plays out.

If its a non-starter, then you hang up the phone.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

If its a non-starter, then you hang up the phone.

Their next call would be to Miami to get # 3.  You OK with that?

[Jetsfan80]

9 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

My feeling is the Texans will demand at least #2 overall, 2021 2nd rounder, 2022 1st rounder, and 2023 1st rounder. That is a ton of draft capital, and it significantly lowers the Jets ability to fill their pipeline with young premium talent.

This doesn't even take into account the cap hits which reduce your ability to sign quality free agents as well.

This is a team that needs a starting quarterback, three new WRs including a #1, two new starters on the OL, a #1 RB, and possibly a #1 TE. And this is just on the offensive side of the ball.

People seem to be ignoring the repercussions of a mega trade for one player. Can it be executed successfully? Sure, but it makes the rebuild much tougher in the sense that you don't have much of a margin for error with your remaining resources.

I am higher on Wilson than most of this board, but it's not crazy to think that in 5 years:

Wilson + two 1st round picks + one 2nd round pick + $100m in cap space > Deshaun Watson

 

I mean, its not crazy, but it is extremely unlikely.  Give me the locked in top 5 (or so) QB and worry about the rest later.  Banking on Fields or Wilson to be on Watson's level, or even to end up above average QB's, is always going to be on the side of "not very likely".  Only 12 guys on the planet can play the position at a high level at any given time.  Watson is one of the few in that category.  

And I'm not worried about the cap hit whatsoever.  Watson's cap hit is scheduled to be under $12M in 2021.  Plenty of room to sign free agents when we enter the offseason with the 2nd most cap space.  And FA's, especially WR's, will be clamoring to come here to play with Watson.

[CanadaSteve]

10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Their next call would be to Miami to get # 3.  You OK with that?

If Miami wants to get raped, sure.  

This team is not good enough to give all that draft capital away and put Watson in to be the saviour.  We did that once with Darnold.  Didn't work so well.  Watson had a team around him the first few years.  I don't think he does that here without talent.  

 

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, CanadaSteve said:

If Miami wants to get raped, sure.  

This team is not good enough to give all that draft capital away and put Watson in to be the saviour.  We did that once with Darnold.  Didn't work so well.  Watson had a team around him the first few years.  I don't think he does that here without talent.  

It didn't work out because Darnold is the worst starting QB in the NFL.  Deshaun Watson is a top 5 QB in the NFL.  

Please don't pull the "Texans only won 4 games!" card here.  I don't want you to get embarrassed.  I like you too much.

[Dcronin]

5 hours ago, Charlie Brown said:

Thank you!

It is the myth of the QB solving everything, when they don't and they can't!

Watson won 4 Games; 2 more than the Jets, and that is with far superior talent on the offensive side of the ball!

So great QB play definitely helps your team win but that ISN'T enough!  The Jets haven't been a poor team for almost a decade because of poor QB play alone!

There simply  group of fans who fanaticize about just how good the Jets talent is and that somehow one player or two is holding the jets from being the Bills.

No; we have a horrible roster and there is plenty of work to do besides just having a new QB.

The Bills are a perfect example. Allen is great, but it's not just him. They got better and stronger in so many different areas.

[NYJ1]

23 hours ago, Dcronin said:

We just saw what can happen when Deshaun Watson is on a team lacking talent - he goes 4-12.

We are so much farther away from contending than just a QB. We need all the help we can get, we need all the picks we can get. 

Trade down, sign FAs, do anything to get an influx of talent. But don't give up a ransom for Deshaun.

That's where I'm leaning. Okay, now talk me into how we get Deshaun and still get better.

DC

In a vacuum, I want Deshaun Watson everyday and twice in Sundays. He is a truly great talent. He would undoubtedly RAISE the overall talent on offense. Great QB's are like that. More so than any other position on offense or defense, a QB can make an eye popping difference of the players in the huddle. I've seen it enough times to know such a unique dynamic exists. 

So far be it from me to say, "I don't want Deshaun Watson". I certainly want it... But unfortunately NOT at any cost?

My ceiling for Deshaun is the same type deal that we made trading Jamal.

If the asking price is North of that? Then, if I'm GM (and I'm sure you're all glad for that), I turn the deal down.

If 3 1st round draft choices is asking price? Then my answer is NO. If the Texans were trading Watson within their own division? Then I get the asking price. It makes sense in that scenario. But where the Jets are NOT in the Texans division, 3 1st round draft choices is way too exorbitant. 

That kind of haul will adversely affect JD's ability to build this team. Watson is ONE player and he certainly can't win the SB on his own. Trading for Watson only makes sense if you're able to continue to build the team around him. Because make no mistake, DCronin is CORRECT  when he says, "We need all the help we can get, we need all the picks we can get."

 To me paying 3 1st round draft choices is absurd as offering 100 million dollars guaranteed to a journeyman QB. Now, don't try and say I'm comparing Watson and Kirk Cousins. Watson is a much better QB than Cousins IMO with a much brighter future. Simply using the insanity of that contract offer an an analogy.

So, and honestly before this, any comments I'd made on the subject were before I had the opportunity to really think about it. I've thought about it now and my belief is I have a good handle on this situation.

If you can't acquire Deshaun without adversely affecting the ability to build the team after you acquire him? Then it simply isn't worth it..... And don't forget.... We have Sam Darnold on this team and the jury is still very much out on Sammy. That statement may sound incredible, but I'm sure Rams fans felt the same way as you about KURT WARNER going into the 1999 season. Only difference is Kurt came from bagging groceries, Sammy came from one the very best college programs.

[jetsQuebec]

23 hours ago, Dcronin said:

We just saw what can happen when Deshaun Watson is on a team lacking talent - he goes 4-12.

We are so much farther away from contending than just a QB. We need all the help we can get, we need all the picks we can get. 

Trade down, sign FAs, do anything to get an influx of talent. But don't give up a ransom for Deshaun.

That's where I'm leaning. Okay, now talk me into how we get Deshaun and still get better.

DC

I don’t agree with the 4-12 things, but yeah let’s build through the draft 

 

sign at least 2 key positions/players in FA

 

trade down once or two times with the 2nd overall!!! Imagine having like 8+ players drafted in the 100 NCAA best players, with 11-12 picks overall

[Adoni Beast]

“We can’t give up all those 1st round picks!! One of them might possibly be a top 5 QB in the league one day!!”

....?

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, Dunnie said:

EXACTLY : BEcause they could not afford anyone on D do to Mr Watson unjustified Mega Deal.

Wut?