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Why is there this idea from some people that we can’t draft Wilson and improve the team going forward?


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This is only said by people who love Sam Darnold and are pissed he is not the qb anymore.  They are the same people who hate zach wilson and joe douglas as well. Anyone with a brain knows we have

Thank you.  We're in position now to grab a high end QB prospect. (Thanks largely to our previous QBs poor play) Now is the time to take advantage of that. What really drives me nuts is thos

I think the Jets certainly can draft a QB at #2 and still improve the team with their remaining picks and the picks next year. The concern seems to be whether the Jets are willing to do something

29 minutes ago, JiF said:

Probably because it's a formula that's failed over and over again.  Also, in the history of the NFL, no rookie HC/rookie QB have ever been paired together and achieved sustained success except for Jimmy Johnson and Troy Aikman, who ironically built that team through a massive trade haul but I digress.  Wilson is not a pro-ready QB and it would be wise to find a bridge QB to build the team for when Wilson is ready.  I think throwing him to the wolves with this sh*tty roster would be a tragic mistake.

I mean he’s not pro ready is your opinion  I think he is..

Herbert flourished last year behind an awful oline.. you don’t have to wait for a perfect situation to throw a QB into.

if he’s legit you’ll see it right away regardless of situation

 

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Assuming that at least a substantial portion of the Jets' draft will be focused on offensive support, the Jets that Wilson will join is far better put together than the team that Darnold had to play for in 2019 and 2020 for sure.  

And a bad defense would just put him in bad field position, so they can't really ignore that either.

Unfortunately, the OL is only as good as its weakest link.  The Jets have a first round LT and C and RT making $9mm/year.  Alex Lewis makes $6+mm/Year.  If JD can plug some holes and add depth, this team can be better. 

But I would still find a way to let Wilson watch for awhile before putting him out there, particularly if the OL needs to gel.  

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28 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Correct now the argument is hopefully the Jets don’t take the exact same player they just traded and expect a different outcome.  Grab the better QB in Fields and the Jets might just have something.

The only thing Wilson and Darnold have in common is that are both QB’s they aren’t similliar at all.

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When we traded up to take Darnold we gave up 3 2nd round picks.  We aren't doing that this year.  We earned our pick and were going to use it instead of trading down now and having to trade up in the future to get a QB who may not be as good a prospect.  

Douglas can't be blamed that the crappy build by Mac lead to us having the 2 pick and at 2 there appears to be an elite QB prospect that the staff loves.  

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30 minutes ago, JiF said:

Probably because it's a formula that's failed over and over again.  Also, in the history of the NFL, no rookie HC/rookie QB have ever been paired together and achieved sustained success except for Jimmy Johnson and Troy Aikman, who ironically built that team through a massive trade haul but I digress.  Wilson is not a pro-ready QB and it would be wise to find a bridge QB to build the team for when Wilson is ready.  I think throwing him to the wolves with this sh*tty roster would be a tragic mistake.

Yep, not sure how anyone disagrees with this other than just wanting to. I think there is of course a very shall chance for success and that increases a ton if you wait. 

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1 minute ago, RogerVick1980 said:

The only thing Wilson and Darnold have in common is that are both QB’s they aren’t similliar at all.

See I disagree both QB’s play their best off script, and would play very well in the new Jets offense I contend Darnold is still the better option between the 2, but understand if you want a fresh start at QB, but if you do you should go for the guy who has been touted as 1B behind Lawrence for 5 years and brings a dynamic us Jets fans have never had the pleasure of enjoying which should lead to another foreign feeling, winning.

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40 minutes ago, jetstream23 said:

I think the Jets certainly can draft a QB at #2 and still improve the team with their remaining picks and the picks next year.

The concern seems to be whether the Jets are willing to do something I've somewhat advocated for - forego additional investments on Defense right now in order to properly protect and support the rookie QB they're about to Draft.  There are holes all over this team on both offense and defense.  The Jets needs are numerous - OL, LB, WR, CB, TE, etc.  We can't fix them all in one year.

So what should the plan be?  I'd argue the Jets need to hold their noses and be willing to give up some points on D in order to focus on the O immediately.  Robert Saleh is a defensive coach.  While the Jets still have some needs on D there's enough there to field a team, coach those guys up and get reasonable performance.  Quinnen, Lawson, Maye...those are above average players.  There are some young hopeful pieces like Hall, Davis, etc.  The Jets need to focus on Offense right now because we can't ruin another QB.  If a defender who is ranked 19th on the Jets board is there at #23, they should take the offensive player who is ranked 22nd IMO.  They can come back next year with one of those 1st round picks to land an elite CB, an elite OLB or a younger Edge rusher....and make other investments on D.  Just not right now IMO.  Now, if Patrick Surtain is there at 34 I'm not saying to totally throw value out the window, but I think my point is clear.

Completely agree.  Starting in the 4th round, we can take a corner etc.  We have 5 picks in the 1st 3 rounds.  We should come out of that with the following in no particular order:

qb, rb, wr, te, oline

 

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1 hour ago, RogerVick1980 said:

I agree it’s beneficial but if you think a QB has franchise QB potential you take him.

You don’t pass him up to build the team up when it’s so hard to find a franchise QB.. 

 

1 hour ago, freestater said:

Thank you. 

We're in position now to grab a high end QB prospect. (Thanks largely to our previous QBs poor play) Now is the time to take advantage of that.

What really drives me nuts is those who advocate passing on a QB to "build the team" will follow that unflinchingly with "well, we can use the capital we amass to move up and grab a QB in the future"

Friggin what?!? How could spending multiple 1sts to move up to the position you're in right now be a more effective approach? 

Take the QB. Only this time, spend a pick or two on a line and some playmakers for him. 

 

1 hour ago, LIJetsFan said:

This is a SOJF take.  There is no reason to STILL believe that we are a bad franchise.  The owners are hand off now which is HUGE.  We have a new FO and CS, both seemingly having good pedigrees.  There is no reason on earth except for angst to think that is franchise is now bad.          

 

1 hour ago, UntouchableCrew said:

In all seriousness, if you're really afraid of ruining Wilson just don't play him.

I doubt anyone is truly worried about that in the Jets org, but like, if that's your huge fear you don't need to play him. Sign Alex Smith and give him the nod that he'll get the full season as a starter.

It doesn't change the fact that the Jets are uniquely positioned to grab a top notch QB prospect in a way they likely won't be in the future. You can grab the guy and sit him for a year.

 

1 hour ago, sourceworx said:

This. This this this this.

Take a QB at 2. Then use the next few picks on guys who can help him. Don't use your next pick on a project DT from a D2 school.

I don’t understand how this take is so pervasive with both the absolutely awful recent track record of QB’s taken at the top of the draft and the consistent trend that the better QB’s to come out of drafts - really all of the superstars right now - have been passed on in the draft and ended up in quality situations.

I’d also feel differently if the Jets planned on redshirting the #2 pick this year but as of right now that feels quite unlikely. I really don’t think this is a good situation to walk into  and play week one. At all.

Hopefully this time is different. I’m skeptical it will be.

(I know there’s some talk of sitting him for a year in some of these - but the idea you have to get your guy at the top of the draft just doesn’t make sense to me. It’s certainly not how it’s worked lately.)

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1 hour ago, RogerVick1980 said:

Ive heard  from some people here and on social media that the Jets can’t draft a Qb because there are too many holes on the roster  and/or  Wilson would be put in the same situation as Darnold..

First off we aren’t contending this year anyway so if we can’t fill every hole this year it’s not the end of the world.. it’s about how we continue to build..

I don’t get why some people think if we draft Wilson we will have no ability going forward to improve the team at all and he will be stuck with this exact roster for his whole career..

We have enough assets and flexibility wheter through the draft or cap going forward to where if we make the right moves we have more then enough assets to build a talented team around Wilson eventually..

 

 

 

 

Who is to say that I can’t spend a million dollars on a ‘72 Chevy Nova and improve it enough to win Daytona? 

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6 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

See I disagree both QB’s play their best off script, and would play very well in the new Jets offense I contend Darnold is still the better option between the 2, but understand if you want a fresh start at QB, but if you do you should go for the guy who has been touted as 1B behind Lawrence for 5 years and brings a dynamic us Jets fans have never had the pleasure of enjoying which should lead to another foreign feeling, winning.

Fields being touted as 1B for years means nothing.

Draft experts and draft twitters consensus is not always in line with how the NFl thinks about a player.

 

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Just now, RogerVick1980 said:

Fields being touted as 1B for years means nothing.

Draft experts and draft twitters consensus is not always in line with how the NFl thinks about a player.

 

It’s not just that he has done nothing but prove all that touting was true!  Come on watch the tape of this kid vs a bunch of defenses who field like 10 future NFL pros.

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9 minutes ago, derp said:

 

 

 

 

I don’t understand how this take is so pervasive with both the absolutely awful recent track record of QB’s taken at the top of the draft and the consistent trend that the better QB’s to come out of drafts - really all of the superstars right now - have been passed on in the draft and ended up in quality situations.

I’d also feel differently if the Jets planned on redshirting the #2 pick this year but as of right now that feels quite unlikely. I really don’t think this is a good situation to walk into  and play week one. At all.

Hopefully this time is different. I’m skeptical it will be.

(I know there’s some talk of sitting him for a year in some of these - but the idea you have to get your guy at the top of the draft just doesn’t make sense to me. It’s certainly not how it’s worked lately.)

This whole idea that you shouldn’t draft QBs high because some have busted and are put  on a bad team  is just dumb.

You still take a QB high if you think he’s the guy..

The idea that you take one later in the draft even if you don’t mind him as much as the top QB’s because Mahomes and Watson were drafted later in the top 20 isn’t a wise  move 

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I think some are just used to be negative.  We have a lot of picks at our disposal these next two years so it’s a totally different situation than 2018.  If Wilson is indeed the pick we will be able to build around him.  After pick 2, we have 3 firsts and 3 seconds the next two years.  I’m not saying every one of those picks will be offense but some will.  

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2 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

It’s not just that he has done nothing but prove all that touting was true!  Come on watch the tape of this kid vs a bunch of defenses who field like 10 future NFL pros.

And he’s in an offense surrounded by 10 future pros..

It’s about traits I don’t care about stats and competition..

If you go by that  then you’d take Haskins high and stay away from Josh Allen 

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2 minutes ago, RogerVick1980 said:

And he’s in an offense surrounded by 10 future pros..

It’s about traits I don’t care about stats and competition..

If you go by that  then you’d take Haskins high and stay away from Josh Allen 

Great now next year he will be on an offense with 12 pros.

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2 minutes ago, RogerVick1980 said:

And he’s in an offense surrounded by 10 future pros..

It’s about traits I don’t care about stats and competition..

If you go by that  then you’d take Haskins high and stay away from Josh Allen 

Anyone who watched Haskins and thought hey there is a future great Pro QB needs to stop scouting QB’s IMO.

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Just now, Lupz27 said:

Anyone who watched Haskins and thought hey there is a future great Pro QB needs to stop scouting QB’s IMO.

The point is every QB who’s been in that OSU system has looked great in college.

I’m not comparing Fields to Haskins but if you want to play the game of knocking Wilson for his competition then you can also pick apart how OSU puts all QB’s in a position  to suceed in college but none have done well in the pros..

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1 hour ago, RogerVick1980 said:

Ive heard  from some people here and on social media that the Jets can’t draft a Qb because there are too many holes on the roster  and/or  Wilson would be put in the same situation as Darnold..

First off we aren’t contending this year anyway so if we can’t fill every hole this year it’s not the end of the world.. it’s about how we continue to build..

I don’t get why some people think if we draft Wilson we will have no ability going forward to improve the team at all and he will be stuck with this exact roster for his whole career..

We have enough assets and flexibility wheter through the draft or cap going forward to where if we make the right moves we have more then enough assets to build a talented team around Wilson eventually..

While I agree, I think the trepidation is at least somewhat warranted. 

Personally, I think the infrastructure of this team is the best its been since 2009. I think we have the right people here and we have the right assets. Despite the fact that I think Zach Wilson is the best QB prospect in the draft by a pretty wide margin, I still feel insecure because I've seen the Jets destroy great prospects by playing them too early or asking them to do too much... by not developing them. 

I have faith that the offensive coaching is a dramatic improvement. I really like that we're implementing a Shanahan scheme and I'm really happy that Greg Knapp is on the staff. But do we really know how much better the OL will be? Do we really know how good of a coordinator LaFleur will be? Do we really know how good of a HC Saleh will be? 

 

Ideally, I would like to see a veteran begin the season as starter while the coaching staff/players get acclimated to the new environment, culture, and scheme. I think Zach Wilson would really benefit by sitting out for a few games until a "standard operating procedure" is put in place. I do worry that forcing him into the lineup is more detrimental than beneficial, but I also acknowledge that this isn't a "bad" situation for a QB the way it was for Darnold. It could always be better, but it does feel stable right now. I just hope the Jets do what is right, and if they sense Zach/the offensive line needs more time to gel, don't be afraid to start the season with someone else. 

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14 minutes ago, RogerVick1980 said:

This whole idea that you shouldn’t draft QBs high because some have busted and are put  on a bad team  is just dumb.

You still take a QB high if you think he’s the guy..

The idea that you take one later in the draft even if you don’t mind him as much as the top QB’s because Mahomes and Watson were drafted later in the top 20 isn’t a wise  move 

Please show me which QB’s drafted in the top five have worked out really well for their teams.

Then divide that by the number of QB’s drafted in the top five.

Perhaps the dumb thing is ignoring that glaringly obvious trend?

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7 minutes ago, RogerVick1980 said:

The point is every QB who’s been in that OSU system has looked great in college.

I’m not comparing Fields to Haskins but if you want to play the game of knocking Wilson for his competition then you can also pick apart how OSU puts all QB’s in a position  to suceed in college but none have done well in the pros..

Again I can’t think of an OSU QB before Fields that I thought wow gonna be a good pro QB so to me this OSU argument holds no water is all.

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13 minutes ago, derp said:

 

I don’t understand how this take is so pervasive with both the absolutely awful recent track record of QB’s taken at the top of the draft and the consistent trend that the better QB’s to come out of drafts - really all of the superstars right now - have been passed on in the draft and ended up in quality situations.

 

The first point is kind of irrelevant and a product of the second. Having second choice of the crop doesn't inherently make the player worse than having third choice.

The second is a fair point though. And really, if you don't think very highly of this group of QBs and think you can get a similar talent in 2022 or 2023 then I can see why you'd want to do that. It's what the Dolphins just did -- they seem lukewarm at best on Tua but decided to run in back with him again as they continue to build with tons of premium picks.

But QB is still the most important position on the field and the Jets still have a LOT of premium picks after 2. If you believe in the guy you take him and move heaven and earth to support him. By contrast if you punt on QB you could be sitting there with the 18th pick in 2023 hoping some guy falls to you or moving tons of premium assets to move up. 

It's all on Joe Douglas at this point. If you don't believe in him and Robert Saleh I'm not sure it really matters what the Jets do with that pick. They need to deliver on their draft picks and put them in the best position to succeed.

 

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11 minutes ago, football guy said:

While I agree, I think the trepidation is at least somewhat warranted. 

Personally, I think the infrastructure of this team is the best its been since 2009. I think we have the right people here and we have the right assets. Despite the fact that I think Zach Wilson is the best QB prospect in the draft by a pretty wide margin, I still feel insecure because I've seen the Jets destroy great prospects by playing them too early or asking them to do too much... by not developing them. 

I have faith that the offensive coaching is a dramatic improvement. I really like that we're implementing a Shanahan scheme and I'm really happy that Greg Knapp is on the staff. But do we really know how much better the OL will be? Do we really know how good of a coordinator LaFleur will be? Do we really know how good of a HC Saleh will be? 

 

Ideally, I would like to see a veteran begin the season as starter while the coaching staff/players get acclimated to the new environment, culture, and scheme. I think Zach Wilson would really benefit by sitting out for a few games until a "standard operating procedure" is put in place. I do worry that forcing him into the lineup is more detrimental than beneficial, but I also acknowledge that this isn't a "bad" situation for a QB the way it was for Darnold. It could always be better, but it does feel stable right now. I just hope the Jets do what is right, and if they sense Zach/the offensive line needs more time to gel, don't be afraid to start the season with someone else. 

If they don't want to rush Wilson the only vet I would want is Alex Smith

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I think there is just so little faith in the Jets as a competent football organization... that pretty much any avenue of talent acquisition or organizational philosophy is met with scorn.  I expect that will change if we get back to having more normal NFL cycles of play.  But any decent team is build using trades, draft choices and FA/UDFA acquisitions.   There is never a set method you can come back to again and again (maybe drafting for GB or Baltimore) with much faith. 

It's all a crap shoot.

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2 hours ago, Wit said:

Simply because time and time again, bad franchises draft QBs high and ruin them. Hopefully that narrative is changing with kyler Murray and Baker Mayfield for instance, but the Jets have to prove they won’t ruin him.

Isn't is possible....now run with this for me, please....that bad franchises tend to draft bad QB's, because bad franchises also tend to be bad at talent evaluation?

Just a thought.  

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I believe we have 21 picks in the next 2 drafts.

Assuming we take a QB in round 2, that leaves 20 picks over the next 2 drafts for other positions.

Let's say we hit on 50% (at minimum) of those (meaning the player becomes a starter or key sub ex. 2nd RB, 3d WR, 3rd CB, situational DPR ), that's 10 players.

If at least half of those picks are used on offense (damn well better be), that's 5 or 6 new offensive starters via the draft (not factoring in any potential FAs in the next year) where we already have Becton (starting LT) and Mims (anywhere from #1 - #3 WR TBD) plus the QB we take @ #2 this year.

We can absolutely draft a QB @ #2 this year and still have picks to support him, especially if JD is committed to leaning heavy on offense with the 10 2021 picks we currently have.  If we can hit on better than the average 50% of the picks made, that much the better.

JD has also done a decent job with UDFAs so we can always hope 1 or 2 can become solid contributors on offense as well.

Ya Gotta Believe!!!

 

 

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19 minutes ago, derp said:

Please show me which QB’s drafted in the top five have worked out really well for their teams.

Then divide that by the number of QB’s drafted in the top five.

Perhaps the dumb thing is ignoring that glaringly obvious trend?

But yes by all means let’s wait to draft a QB later on because Mahomes and Watson we’re took then which must mean that’s a foolproof plan or a highly sucessful plan  and QB’s picked at those spots have   never been busts.

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Waiting for your roster to be great before you draft a QB is how you end up like the Colts.  

I know, I know, the Colts did Andrew Luck no favors, too.  Yadda yadda.  They also had three straight 11-5 seasons to begin his career, with Luck going to 3 straight Pro Bowls.  The lesson there is still not to wait on a QB when you think you've found one.  Take him and build.  

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3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Waiting for your roster to be great before you draft a QB is how you end up like the Colts.  

I know, I know, the Colts did Andrew Luck no favors, too.  Yadda yadda.  They also had three straight 11-5 seasons to begin his career, with Luck going to 3 straight Pro Bowls.  The lesson there is still not to wait on a QB when you think you've found one.  Take him and build.  

It’s an absolute shame as the Colts are now built to win.

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1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Isn't is possible....now run with this for me, please....that bad franchises tend to draft bad QB's, because bad franchises also tend to be bad at talent evaluation?

Just a thought.  

That's a fair argument unless those bad organizations are on their 3 or 4th front office (including staff & scouting) in the past 10 years. Then you have to ask yourself "WTF?"

 

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1 minute ago, RogerVick1980 said:

 

Six guys no longer on their current team less than a decade into their careers are your argument?

One retired because he got beat up, a backup who’s currently unsigned, a backup last year who has a chance to start this year but not guaranteed, another backup, and two reclamation projects whose franchises gave up on after paying them.

And the only SB win the guy was hurt and didn’t play for the whole playoff run.

I feel like you’re making my point, not the other way around.

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2 hours ago, adobolo2 said:

Does it matter anymore, we don't have a qb now so we have to draft Wilson/fields/Jones

This was only an argument before we traded Sam.

We didn't have a QB when Darnold was still here, either.  Taking a QB was always going to be a strong possibility whether Darnold was here or not.  

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1 hour ago, sourceworx said:

This. This this this this.

Take a QB at 2. Then use the next few picks on guys who can help him. Don't use your next pick on a project DT from a D2 school.

And especially not "project DT" who was like 26 years old when we took him, no less.

Fire Maccagnan into the Sun.  

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