Do Jets have the right people in charge?

[JustInFudge]

Meh, same old boring talking points.  Assumptive and silly because nobody is going anywhere, and nobody expected this team to be good.  Literally, everyone, including Vegas, knew this team was winning 3-5 games and guess what?  They're going to win 4.  I know, the horror, how dare they meet the expectations that 95% of working brain community had for this team.

Here are some thoughts and I think if you embrace these logical, reasonable points about the state of the NY Jets, you'll see that this is all to be expected and there is nothing (other than QB play) that says this team doesnt improve drastically next year w/ the assets they have at their disposal and some young players getting crucial experience, that lets be real, we've never actually seen the New York Jets do.  It's always been a major complaint for ALL OF US, let the youngsters play in the lost season.  This team has always kept veterans in the game to earn that next contract.   Herm to Gase.  Saleh is different.

- the 2020 draft was JD's first ever draft. 1st.  The 1st time you do something, you're typically not very good at it.  Especially, when you considered the circumstances.  Wonky offseason w/ covid, couldnt really meet and evaluate the way they have in years past, no combine, bogus college season and he was drafting for a different Head Coach who had a totally different philosophy and system.  I think you can give him a pass considering how good this draft has been in comparison.

- the structure is what everyone has been screaming for literally for years around here.  GM who hired his HC, who reports to GM and HC picked his staff, not forced upon them like years past.  This is the first time we've let this happen since Tanny picked Rex, which was the greatest years of this team's history since the turn of the century. 

- this team sucks.  Bottom 3 rosters in the NFL.  Years of inept drafting and terrible FA's contract from Big Mac and the stench of the worst hire in NFL history, Adam Gase.  Yes, it's going to take 2-3 years to fix that mess.  There was nothing here and Adam Gase was force feeding Frank Gore the record books.  It's about the Jim's and Joe's, not the X's and O's.

- and as bad as this roster is/was, with competent QB play, this team could have probably doubled their win total.  I dont think it's anywhere near as bad as the end record will show.  There has been improvement from this team.  They have not given up.  Yes, the D is bad but the O has also forced them to be on the field for a ridiculous amount of time.  Not good for a young D. 

- the Saleh/JD combination could 100% work out.  People learn from their past experience and mistakes.  I dont take these 2 as complete fools like many regimes of the past.  Nobody on the face of the earth has the crystal ball to tell us what is going to happen for sure.  There are a handful of examples of teams whose current regime started out poorly, maybe even worse than the Jets but a few years later, are suddenly in the playoff hunt.  I know it doesnt feel that way, but the Jets could very easily make that type of jump.  Yes, a large part of this is on Zach Wilson but the good news is, we have the benefit of knowing, this system works with competent QB play.

- The Jets have 4 picks in the first round 2 rounds, 2 in the top 10.  They could turn that into more 1st and 2nd round picks or they could hit on 4 premium players at impact positions, like they did this year and suddenly, the Jets are cooking with fire.

Face it folks, doesnt matter how frustrated you are or what you think of Saleh/JD, they're here at least for the next 2 years.

 

 

[SAM SAM HE'S OUR MAN]

18 hours ago, jgb said:

This is only Year 1 of Teh Rebuild™. So he gets 4 more years, actually.

It's the 14th rebuild !!!!! OH THE PAIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JustInFudge]

21 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Literally, everyone, including Vegas, knew this team was winning 3-5 games and guess what?  They're going to win 4.  I know, the horror, how dare they meet the expectations that 95% of working brain community had for this team.

The 5% you asked?

 

•  Thumb Down (1)
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1. 

   T0mShane

[More Cowbell]

21 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

No im not.  Not even close.  I said that if a player they draft doesnt develop into a starter they can become part of the depth every team needs.  They draft like they did this past season and we should be more than happy

Last season is not the norm. We got a lot of rookie starters because there was literally nobody  on the team they had to compete with because the team was gutted. What I am saying is after round 3, you are not looking at a guy you can likely pencil in as a starter, you are looking at rotational guys at best, more likely depth. That is a normal draft where a team has established starters at most positions. All of these players in our secondary including Michael Carter who has played well are competing  for nickel and dime spots on at probably 70% of other teams. Some probably  are not playing at all. This team gave them an opportunity  because we had no corners and then both S got injured. We just had a lot of open positions. 

[Biggs]

28 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

 

- the 2020 draft was JD's first ever draft. 1st.  The 1st time you do something, you're typically not very good at it.  Especially, when you considered the circumstances.  Wonky offseason w/ covid, couldnt really meet and evaluate the way they have in years past, no combine, bogus college season and he was drafting for a different Head Coach who had a totally different philosophy and system.  I think you can give him a pass considering how good this draft has been in comparison.

 

 

 

First ever drafts by new management have been the cornerstone of those teams turnarounds.   Rarely do teams have successful rebuilds where the first big draft is  underwhelming.  

The premise of your thread is wrong.  If someone is hired and isn't very good at what they are doing you're making an assumption that without mentors they will get good at it through trial and error.   If you hired someone who isn't ready the chances of them magically becoming great at it in a vacuum they now are in charge of is very slim.  

After reading your argument if I believed it I would say Douglas is already a sunk cost.  I do believe that about Saleh.  I'm not there yet on Douglas.  

Douglas had a major advantage in his first ever draft.  He was hired after the draft not after the season.   He had more time to evaluate the roster and the draft than any other first time GM's.  

[Jets Voice of Reason]

26 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Meh, same old boring talking points.  Assumptive and silly because nobody is going anywhere, and nobody expected this team to be good.  Literally, everyone, including Vegas, knew this team was winning 3-5 games and guess what?  They're going to win 4.  I know, the horror, how dare they meet the expectations that 95% of working brain community had for this team.

Here are some thoughts and I think if you embrace these logical, reasonable points about the state of the NY Jets, you'll see that this is all to be expected and there is nothing (other than QB play) that says this team doesnt improve drastically next year w/ the assets they have at their disposal and some young players getting crucial experience, that lets be real, we've never actually seen the New York Jets do.  It's always been a major complaint for ALL OF US, let the youngsters play in the lost season.  This team has always kept veterans in the game to earn that next contract.   Herm to Gase.  Saleh is different.

- the 2020 draft was JD's first ever draft. 1st.  The 1st time you do something, you're typically not very good at it.  Especially, when you considered the circumstances.  Wonky offseason w/ covid, couldnt really meet and evaluate the way they have in years past, no combine, bogus college season and he was drafting for a different Head Coach who had a totally different philosophy and system.  I think you can give him a pass considering how good this draft has been in comparison.

- the structure is what everyone has been screaming for literally for years around here.  GM who hired his HC, who reports to GM and HC picked his staff, not forced upon them like years past.  This is the first time we've let this happen since Tanny picked Rex, which was the greatest years of this team's history since the turn of the century. 

- this team sucks.  Bottom 3 rosters in the NFL.  Years of inept drafting and terrible FA's contract from Big Mac and the stench of the worst hire in NFL history, Adam Gase.  Yes, it's going to take 2-3 years to fix that mess.  There was nothing here and Adam Gase was force feeding Frank Gore the record books.  It's about the Jim's and Joe's, not the X's and O's.

- and as bad as this roster is/was, with competent QB play, this team could have probably doubled their win total.  I dont think it's anywhere near as bad as the end record will show.  There has been improvement from this team.  They have not given up.  Yes, the D is bad but the O has also forced them to be on the field for a ridiculous amount of time.  Not good for a young D. 

- the Saleh/JD combination could 100% work out.  People learn from their past experience and mistakes.  I dont take these 2 as complete fools like many regimes of the past.  Nobody on the face of the earth has the crystal ball to tell us what is going to happen for sure.  There are a handful of examples of teams whose current regime started out poorly, maybe even worse than the Jets but a few years later, are suddenly in the playoff hunt.  I know it doesnt feel that way, but the Jets could very easily make that type of jump.  Yes, a large part of this is on Zach Wilson but the good news is, we have the benefit of knowing, this system works with competent QB play.

- The Jets have 4 picks in the first round 2 rounds, 2 in the top 10.  They could turn that into more 1st and 2nd round picks or they could hit on 4 premium players at impact positions, like they did this year and suddenly, the Jets are cooking with fire.

Face it folks, doesnt matter how frustrated you are or what you think of Saleh/JD, they're here at least for the next 2 years.

 

 

A lot hinges on this offseason. The asset building in terms of draft picks comes to a head and JD like you said can add four top 40 picks to the team or acquire more picks in the process. It’s also shaping up to be a way more talented draft class than last year in my opinion, at least in terms of depth. 

JD’s seat isn’t even warm until 2023 and even then they might just opt to let Saleh and JD have three years together. The team would have to be another like 4 win team next year for them to not get an easy another two years together. 

[JustInFudge]

2 minutes ago, Biggs said:

First ever drafts by new management have been the cornerstone of those teams turnarounds.   Rarely do teams have successful rebuilds where the first big draft is  underwhelming.  

The premise of your thread is wrong.  If someone is hired and isn't very good at what they are doing you're making an assumption that without mentors they will get good at it through trial and error.   If you hired someone who isn't ready the chances of them magically becoming great at it in a vacuum they now are in charge of is very slim.  

After reading your argument if I believed it I would say Douglas is already a sunk cost.  I do believe that about Saleh.  I'm not there yet on Douglas.  

Douglas had a major advantage in his first ever draft.  He was hired after the draft not after the season.   He had more time to evaluate the roster and the draft than any other first time GM's.  

How many first ever drafts happened for a GM during covid and also, drafting for a Head Coach that would be removed that same year?  There are examples in the NFL right now, where the first draft of a regime was a disaster, but that team is good now.  Bengals come to mind. Leading the division, first ever draft for Zach Taylor netted 1 starter out of 10 picks, a guard they had to pick at 11th overall. 

The premise of my post is right and logical.  Yours is based on emotion.  People learn and get better at their jobs with time and there are numerous examples of that playing out in the NFL, right now.  You have no clue, if Saleh is ready.  Nobody was winning with this roster.  Again, plenty of example's regimes starting out bad and now competing for the playoffs/leading their division. Acting as if it's impossible for a rookie Head Coach to grow into his role, is just well, very narrow minded. 

To say Douglas has a major advantage in his first ever draft, is one of the worst takes I've ever heard in my life and that's ok.  We can agree to disagree.  I dont know if this will work out and neither do you but I whole heartedly disagree with everything you've posted above.

❤️ 

 

 

[slats]

18 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

“Everybody wants to win now, but the general rule is a GM needs three years to get anything done, assuming he’s not taking over a franchise in good shape,” a current NFL general manager said. “With the Jets, it was so bad there, you might get progress after three years. But that’s a five-year rebuilding project at least.”

This is why Joe Douglas’ first major negotiating move was to get himself six years. I’m pretty sure everyone once knew this. I understand the impatience; I have to look at this team, too. But them sucking thru a decade of rudderless stewardship before Douglas has nothing to do with him other than he had a lot of work to do. That three years they’re talking about? JD and Saleh probably get that. They have a second year guaranteed, and I doubt that the win/loss mandate that a lot of fans would like to see implemented will be. 

18 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Douglas, a well-respected former VP of player personnel for the Philadelphia Eagles, got near universal support from those SNY interviewed. Almost everyone loved that he was committed to building his team from the trenches – focusing on the offensive and defensive lines. In fact, he drafted offensive linemen in the first round in each of his first two drafts, even trading up for Vera-Tucker in April. And he has spent about $70 million on free agent contracts for offensive linemen, too.

I keep coming back to this with JD, that he’s easily the mostly highly regarded candidate the Jets have managed to hire since Bill Parcells. That’s not insignificant. And for @kevinc855 looking for an explanation of, “the right way,” they mention the building thru the trenches here. The OL was awful enough for me to advocate back to back first round OL (a major departure), and he delivered. He understands the importance of positional value with premium picks drafting two OL, two WRs, and a QB in the first two rounds so far. I think everyone expects an Edge with his first pick this year. His trades have been genius, and will probably get a couple other GMs fired. Yes, he has to hit on the picks, and fortunately his second draft looks a lot better than his COVID infected first. If Becton can get back on the field and produce -he’s looked when when he’s on the field!- that draft will look a lot better. 

18 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

It’s not that anyone was against hiring Saleh, the former 49ers defensive coordinator who has never been a head coach before. It was more that they expressed concern about the combination of an inexperienced head coach with an inexperienced staff taking over a very inexperienced team. “That’s a lot of people learning on the job at the same time,” said a former NFL executive. “And right now they all look like they’re in over their heads.”

This was my biggest concern about this staff. I feel like they bit off more than they could chew. It’s the primary reason I was in favor of trading down instead of drafting a rookie QB: rookie HC, rookie OC, rookie QB - that’s a tough recipe. The good news is that after being on the hot seat with fans early, LaFluer looks like an inventive and creative play caller. For all the complaints of Saleh hiring his buddy there, his buddy looks like a solid hire. I suspect they recognize that they should’ve done more for the QB room from the start, and that led to the trade for Flacco (trying to correct that mistake midstream - a good thing!), and it’s my hope and anticipation that they’ll shore up the position this offseason with a marginal starter type to back up/be ready to take over for Wilson. But Wilson’s development will remain the priority. 
 
Now it’s up to these gentlemen to self scout over the offseason, identify and correct the mistakes they made, and move forward. I have no doubt that they’re smart guys. Everybody’s coming back in 2022. There will not be a QB competition. Everyone will need to be better in their second year as a pro. I really hope they are. I already know it’s going to be a nightmare around here until the draft, at least. 

[JustInFudge]

59 minutes ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

A lot hinges on this offseason. The asset building in terms of draft picks comes to a head and JD like you said can add four top 40 picks to the team or acquire more picks in the process. It’s also shaping up to be a way more talented draft class than last year in my opinion, at least in terms of depth. 

JD’s seat isn’t even warm until 2023 and even then they might just opt to let Saleh and JD have three years together. The team would have to be another like 4 win team next year for them to not get an easy another two years together. 

100%.  I'm not saying anything is guaranteed, I'm just saying a couple of smart moves, good draft picks, healthy Lawson, some new FA's...absolutely ridiculous to write this regime off already.  Nobody should be surprised by what happened this year and to think that everyone is incapable of growing and learning, is just stupid.  Sorry, it is.

[varjet]

Good points above.  I will add:

• If the Jets look as bad next year as this year, in terms of QB play (JD's pick) and defense (Saleh's expertise), I think the Johnsons panic push the eject button.  JD will have had enough time to create a roster that can win at least 6-7 games in a 17 win season.
• I don't think you can give JD a mulligan on his Covid 2020 drafting.  Supposedly he interviewed Becton's HS coaches.  He did his work on Becton.  We fans read articles.  We fans knew that Wirfs had his act more together.  JD needs to upgrade the people he has scouting-somebody's head has to roll.  In 2020 JD went for WR and LT and in 2022 they need to look for the same thing.  2022 was lots of depth on the back-end, which generally worked out, although I am feeling now that the Sherwood/Hamsah picks may bust. 
• But this Jags-Jets game is a bigger trap than we think.  It could be JD's Toilet Bowl.  If the Jets get blown out, I would not fall off my chair if the Johnsons panic. 

[PepPep]

18 hours ago, Wit said:

Well the forever rebuilding Detroit lions and Cleveland browns would like to have a word with you. 

I would add the Bengals and Jaguars who did have some short stretches of success but for the most part have been mired in mediocrity. 

 

18 hours ago, Matt39 said:

Where has Joe Douglas been anyways?

Not sure what this means. From the get go Douglas has said he will be building this team through the draft. He won't be overspending on Free Agents to put this team in financial hell. Has he whiffed on draft picks and FAs, yes, of course. But everything he has done so far has been to build a culture where the team builds through the draft (this includes valuing draft capital), maintains financial flexibility and retains only critical talent to the future success of the team. This is how you build for long term success and it takes time to get all the pieces in place. You have to acquire draft picks, you have clear cap space, you have to hit on draft picks and you have to do it year in year out until a team is built. Of course you add FA pieces here and there, but thats not really at the core of his plan. 

It may infuriate fans but this really IS year one of a rebuild in the sense that Saleh is a new rookie coach with new rookie coordinator. The players are majority very young- rookies or second year guys- including a QB in his first year, and they are all playing together in a new system. Not saying it will take 5 years, just saying there is an absurd panic and overreaction from Jet fans because of the struggles they are seeing on the football field. Oh and may I add the insane amount of injuries really, really hurt the Jets this year. 

What exactly is JD supposed to be doing at this juncture other than monitoring his roster and looking towards the offseason. Step in and second guess his rookie coach- forcing him to bench Zach? Sign some bum vets off the street that aren't worth signing or have no familiarity with the system? For what reason? To try and win one or two of these last 3 games? What in gods name are you talking about? 

[kmnj]

-it starts with terrible ownership-the jets have that without question and that wont change. 

the jets have a terrible gm and a terrible coach is indicated by actual results on the field shown by their record .

Joe may be worst the gm we have had-he was handed an average team and made them terrible-his number one last year is a bust , his number two last year was a bust-his entire first draft was a bust-this year he drafted a worse version of geno smith at the top of the draft and hired a coach that is supposed to be a defensive guy and our defense is beyond awful

new does not mean -good

having a plan does not mean you can execute it

the only thing Joe has done well is drafting moore and getting rid of players for great draft capital

Parcells was handed a 1-15 team and got us to the AFC championship in the same period that Joe has us at the bottom of the league

 

 

 

[Matt39]

4 minutes ago, PepPep said:

 

What exactly is JD supposed to be doing at this juncture  

Win. Have a team that blocks and tackles. Doesnt drop passes. Doesnt commit dumb penalties. Doesnt have a parade of players in the trainers room. These are things that can be fixed easily and they havent been. If the fundamentals arent improving it's tough to have faith that the big picture stuff follows.

[kmnj]

4 minutes ago, PepPep said:

I would add the Bengals and Jaguars who did have some short stretches of success but for the most part have been mired in mediocrity. 

 

Not sure what this means. From the get go Douglas has said he will be building this team through the draft. He won't be overspending on Free Agents to put this team in financial hell. Has he whiffed on draft picks and FAs, yes, of course. But everything he has done so far has been to build a culture where the team builds through the draft (this includes valuing draft capital), maintains financial flexibility and retains only critical talent to the future success of the team. This is how you build for long term success and it takes time to get all the pieces in place. You have to acquire draft picks, you have clear cap space, you have to hit on draft picks and you have to do it year in year out until a team is built. Of course you add FA pieces here and there, but thats not really at the core of his plan. 

It may infuriate fans but this really IS year one of a rebuild in the sense that Saleh is a new rookie coach with new rookie coordinator. The players are majority very young- rookies or second year guys- including a QB in his first year, and they are all playing together in a new system. Not saying it will take 5 years, just saying there is an absurd panic and overreaction from Jet fans because of the struggles they are seeing on the football field. Oh and may I add the insane amount of injuries really, really hurt the Jets this year. 

What exactly is JD supposed to be doing at this juncture other than monitoring his roster and looking towards the offseason. Step in and second guess his rookie coach- forcing him to bench Zach? Sign some bum vets off the street that aren't worth signing or have no familiarity with the system? For what reason? To try and win one or two of these last 3 games? What in gods name are you talking about? 

the bolded is comical and it is amazing some gullible fans buy into that-Joe basically created an built in excuse to buy himself more time-next year they will suck again then Joe will fire Saleh and be starting his "year one "rebuild again and probably working again with a rookie qb

A new coach and new gm does not mean they are good at their jobs-just means they are new

I hate when people talk about injuries-every team has had them that is part of football and some of the top teams are young as far as talent goes as well-just because they are young is not an excuse-Mims sucks and is a monster bust not because he is young but because he sucks

 

 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, JiFapono said:

Face it folks, doesnt matter how frustrated you are or what you think of Saleh/JD, they're here at least for the next 2 years.

I think this would be a safe bet, yes.  Like it or not, agree with it or not.  Same as for Wilson.  

[T0mShane]

30 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

100%.  I'm not saying anything is guaranteed, I'm just saying a couple of smart moves, good draft picks, healthy Lawson, some new FA's...absolutely ridiculous to right this regime off already.  Nobody should be surprised by what happened this year and to think that everyone is incapable of growing and learning, is just stupid.  Sorry, it is.

They’re all doomed. Douglas should cobble together whatever package he can to go after Watson or Russell or whoever he can get his hands on because the trajectory of this team is horrible. We can say all we want about how bad Maccagnan was, but neither Douglas nor Saleh have displayed much of a foundation of competence upon which to expand, particularly Saleh.

[Biggs]

26 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

The premise of my post is right and logical.  Yours is based on emotion. 

 

 

That's not a cogent argument.  The rest of your post was simply excuses.   I disagree with your premise.  Most GM's and Head coaches who don't draft well and develop talent don't last.   If they don't do it right away they are playing catchup and ultimately get canned.   In our division the fact that the Pats were able to rebuild in one offseason puts us at an even further disadvantage.  

Saleh is a dead man walking.  Douglas has a lot of decisions to make if he's going to survive.

The Bengals had a great second draft.  Stud QB at 1 NFL ready day 1.  Had Burrow sucked the Bengals GM and HC would be in serious trouble right now. 

[PepPep]

1 hour ago, JiFapono said:

- the 2020 draft was JD's first ever draft. 1st.  The 1st time you do something, you're typically not very good at it.  Especially, when you considered the circumstances.  Wonky offseason w/ covid, couldnt really meet and evaluate the way they have in years past, no combine, bogus college season and he was drafting for a different Head Coach who had a totally different philosophy and system.  I think you can give him a pass considering how good this draft has been in comparison.

 

33 minutes ago, slats said:

His trades have been genius, and will probably get a couple other GMs fired. Yes, he has to hit on the picks, and fortunately his second draft looks a lot better than his COVID infected first. If Becton can get back on the field and produce -he’s looked when when he’s on the field!- that draft will look a lot better. 

 

59 minutes ago, Biggs said:

First ever drafts by new management have been the cornerstone of those teams turnarounds.   Rarely do teams have successful rebuilds where the first big draft is  underwhelming.  

The premise of your thread is wrong.  If someone is hired and isn't very good at what they are doing you're making an assumption that without mentors they will get good at it through trial and error.   If you hired someone who isn't ready the chances of them magically becoming great at it in a vacuum they now are in charge of is very slim.  

 

18 minutes ago, varjet said:

I don't think you can give JD a mulligan on his Covid 2020 drafting.  Supposedly he interviewed Becton's HS coaches.  He did his work on Becton.  We fans read articles.  We fans knew that Wirfs had his act more together.  JD needs to upgrade the people he has scouting-somebody's head has to roll.  In 2020 JD went for WR and LT and in 2022 they need to look for the same thing.  2022 was lots of depth on the back-end, which generally worked out, although I am feeling now that the Sherwood/Hamsah picks may bust. 

Everyone has relentlessly knocked JD for his 2020 draft. These are players who have been in the NFL for 2 seasons. 2 seasons. We're talking about some guys who were hurt or were not ready to step in as starters and have not played a full season of NFL football yet. So, yes, the draft may be a bust but we are judging it awfully early (even though its not looking stellar). But lets look at it closer.

COVID aside, the Jets draft Becton who was at times DOMINANT as a rookie. A Dominant NFL LT as a rookie. I'll repeat that. A DOMINANT NFL LT as a rookie. In the run game and the pass game. Upside is sky-high. He dealt with some injuries his rookie season but he still played 14 games. He had an absolute freak injury this season that led to surgery and the Jets pretty much shutting him down. All of this b.s. about him being lazy, out of shape, not caring about football or 'not having his act together' is complete nonsense until proven otherwise. Far from a bust. If anything he looks very promising. 

Mims has struggled. Only his second year but he's squandered a ton of opportunities and he doesn't look promising. But even with Mims, its too early to tell. He has the tools and talent to turn things around and will get an opportunity in the offseason to fight for a roster spot. 

Ash Davis has been a starter all year. He struggled in coverage but has been solid in the box. The kid is clearly learning when you watch him play. Again, he has the talent and can become a good player or end up a bust. Time will tell. He will have a chance to start next year. 

The next two have looked like whifs- Zuniga and Perine. If you can't break through as a third rounder and contribute on a young, struggling team like the Jets you probably not going to be much of an NFL player. 

Morgan was a miscalculation. Another whif. 

Clark- A developmental player devastated by injuries. I have no idea what to make of him because I have not seen anything of him. Let's just say another whif. 

Hall- JD hits on a gem. Despite the lack of talent in the Jets secondary, you can't really take away the fact that Hall, in his second year (going on 22 games) is their best performing and #1 CB regularly taking on the opposing teams top outside WR.    

Mann- Inconsistent starter. Not much more to say about Mann. He's been good he's been bad. He will probably get another shot next year to show he can maintain some consistency. 

So, JD got potentially a Franchise LT (at least from what we have seen so far). He got a very good CB (#1, #2, whatever argument you want to make on whether or not Hall is a 'shut-down' CB, fine. But as a second year player, he's very good. And he got two inconsistent starters Ash Davis and Mann. For arguments sake lets say the rest are whifs. It's really still too early to tell but- thats not AWFUL.   

[PepPep]

37 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Win. Have a team that blocks and tackles. Doesnt drop passes. Doesnt commit dumb penalties. Doesnt have a parade of players in the trainers room. These are things that can be fixed easily and they havent been. If the fundamentals arent improving it's tough to have faith that the big picture stuff follows.

You are conflating a couple of different things. Dropping passes and committing penalties is not on the GM. Injuries are not on the GM. A lot of this is on coaching and talent. Not just fundamentals. The injury thing I have no answer for and have no idea how to fix. Injuries happen but to constantly be top in the NFL in injuries is just astounding. 

[kevinc855]

1 hour ago, slats said:

, and he delivered

Are we overlooking Becton not playing a full game this year 

[Matt39]

3 minutes ago, PepPep said:

You are conflating a couple of different things. Dropping passes and committing penalties is not on the GM. Injuries are not on the GM. A lot of this is on coaching and talent. Not just fundamentals. The injury thing I have no answer for and have no idea how to fix. Injuries happen but to constantly be top in the NFL in injuries is just astounding. 

Saleh reports to Douglas and was hired by Douglas. So it is on him too. The Jets are dead last in point differential. If the team tackled and wasn't dropping passes weekly it'd be different...but the fundamentals being so bad is a major flag that this group isnt doing their jobs. These are things that needed to be implemented year 1. Starts with practice.

[JustInFudge]

19 minutes ago, Biggs said:

That's not a cogent argument.  The rest of your post was simply excuses.   I disagree with your premise.  Most GM's and Head coaches who don't draft well and develop talent don't last.   If they don't do it right away they are playing catchup and ultimately get canned.   In our division the fact that the Pats were able to rebuild in one offseason puts us at an even further disadvantage.  

Saleh is a dead man walking.  Douglas has a lot of decisions to make if he's going to survive.

The Bengals had a great second draft.  Stud QB at 1 NFL ready day 1.  Had Burrow sucked the Bengals GM and HC would be in serious trouble right now. 

You can disagree all you want, but you're getting there based on emotion and not logic.  It doesnt mean you're right and I'm not even saying I'm right, I'm just saying you dont know, none of us do. There is plenty of enough resources and plenty of enough examples to say that these dudes have a good chance of improving and possibly, significantly if executed well.  Could it not?  Yeah, no sh*t.  The Pats are a terrible comparison and not even worthy of undressing. 

Saying Saleh is a dead man walking, is emotional by premise and lacks any logical understanding of the situation.  He's getting next year for sure, and more than likely 2023 as well. 

The Jets had a great first draft with Saleh and JD. So technically, they're a step ahead of the Taylor regime in Cinci.  Wilson sucks right now which hurts but the beauty of the situation is, we know the offense good to very good with just placement level QB'ing.  And as long as they approach the position appropriately moving forward, they can 100% get better.   

In general, the idea that this team cant/wont get better, is just emotional feely feels and lacks all logic.  If Saleh and JD hit another homerun in the draft, like they did this year, they 100% will be a better team next year.  This is a bottom 3 roster in the league, I dont know how you could possibly think it's going to get worse when you're watching rookies perform and gain valuable experience knowing how much they have available to get better next season.

 

 

[slats]

1 minute ago, kevinc855 said:

Are we overlooking Becton not playing a full game this year 

No, the Becton situation is frustrating. But, obviously, he recognized the critical need to improve the OL by taking a potential HoF type talent in the player. At the time, I thought Wirfs was the safer choice (and he seems to’ve been) but I can’t be too critical of his willingness to take the gamble there. 
 
Again, this was contrasted in his second draft. He didn’t wait for his OL this year, he traded up and grabbed him. He didn’t (speculatively) pass on his preferred WR to trade down and add picks, he stayed right where he was and stuck the pick. I think just about everyone is pretty happy with AVT and Moore. Sometimes people get better at things after the first time they do it. Weird. 

[PepPep]

37 minutes ago, kmnj said:

the bolded is comical and it is amazing some gullible fans buy into that-Joe basically created an built in excuse to buy himself more time-next year they will suck again then Joe will fire Saleh and be starting his "year one "rebuild again and probably working again with a rookie qb

A new coach and new gm does not mean they are good at their jobs-just means they are new

I hate when people talk about injuries-every team has had them that is part of football and some of the top teams are young as far as talent goes as well-just because they are young is not an excuse-Mims sucks and is a monster bust not because he is young but because he sucks

 

 

I don't quite understand your argument. Are you suggesting JD fired Gase (who absolutely sucked- I think we can all agree) and hired Saleh so that he can get rid of Darnold and draft a new QB and re-start the clock to buy himself more time? This is all with a 6 year contract? What, just so he can say he is having a rebuild if the team is doing poorly and the fans won't turn on him? Like, rather than winning? Have you thought this through. 

Injuries happen in the NFL. But not to the level that they are happening to the Jets. And when a young team without a lot of top end talent or vet depth goes through so many injuries there is absolutely no way they will win a lot of games. I don't care who the coach or GM are. 

I never said Mims was a good player. All I said was that he is a talented player and this being his second year in the NFL he will have another shot next year to make the roster. 

[kevinc855]

2 hours ago, JiFapono said:

Saleh/JD, they're here at least for the next 2 years

You are prob right.

But I think a lot depends on 2022 win loss record. Woody panics easily and honestly could you imagine this place and the fan base/media in general if we have another say 6-11 or worse record next year? If you think it’s ugly now….

This plan calls for patience, agreed, but man did they pick the wrong market (NY) to attempt this in 

[PepPep]

10 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Saleh reports to Douglas and was hired by Douglas. So it is on him too. The Jets are dead last in point differential. If the team tackled and wasn't dropping passes weekly it'd be different...but the fundamentals being so bad is a major flag that this group isnt doing their jobs. These are things that needed to be implemented year 1. Starts with practice.

Ok. So you are saying its on JD because he hired Saleh. Fine. Then its on the Johnsons b/c they hired JD by that logic...

So should JD fire Saleh? Should the Johnsons fire JD? Seriously. You are venting. 

[PepPep]

8 minutes ago, slats said:

No, the Becton situation is frustrating. But, obviously, he recognized the critical need to improve the OL by taking a potential HoF type talent in the player. At the time, I thought Wirfs was the safer choice (and he seems to’ve been) but I can’t be too critical of his willingness to take the gamble there. 
 
Again, this was contrasted in his second draft. He didn’t wait for his OL this year, he traded up and grabbed him. He didn’t (speculatively) pass on his preferred WR to trade down and add picks, he stayed right where he was and stuck the pick. I think just about everyone is pretty happy with AVT and Moore. Sometimes people get better at things after the first time they do it. Weird. 

If someone rolled up on AVT and he was out all season due to knee surgery I wonder if Jet fans would go after him or JD with the same vengeance and furious anger lol 

this forum is absurd sometimes. 

[kevinc855]

6 minutes ago, slats said:

No, the Becton situation is frustrating. But, obviously, he recognized the critical need to improve the OL by taking a potential HoF type talent in the player. At the time, I thought Wirfs was the safer choice (and he seems to’ve been) but I can’t be too critical of his willingness to take the gamble there. 
 
Again, this was contrasted in his second draft. He didn’t wait for his OL this year, he traded up and grabbed him. He didn’t (speculatively) pass on his preferred WR to trade down and add picks, he stayed right where he was and stuck the pick. I think just about everyone is pretty happy with AVT and Moore. Sometimes people get better at things after the first time they do it. Weird. 

Hopefully, even at the time many of us were advocating Wirfs over Becton. 
 

JD is no doubt a gambler. Sometimes, I’m more of a play it safe guy. We don’t need to be 15-2 to get in the tournament. Give me a competent team over consistently swinging for the fences and missing which is what we may be looking at with Wilson. 

I think people are overlooking the real possibility and massive implications a Wilson bust would become. And that would be all on JD. 

Hes here in 22 without a doubt. My argument like I made to @JiFapono is that 23 in my eyes is not as safe should the Jets not compete again in 22 regardless of the “plan”

[JustInFudge]

37 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

They’re all doomed. Douglas should cobble together whatever package he can to go after Watson or Russell or whoever he can get his hands on because the trajectory of this team is horrible. We can say all we want about how bad Maccagnan was, but neither Douglas nor Saleh have displayed much of a foundation of competence upon which to expand, particularly Saleh.

I wont argue that they've given reasons for pause and concern, but I disagree that they can't change the trajectory.  Yes, QB is a HUGE piece of that puzzle, but this team is going to get better.  It's really silly to think it's not when we know what they have available to them in the offseason.  I'm not saying they're making the playoffs next year, but I do think as long as they get placement level QB'ing next season, they can push .500 and start to change the trajectory.  Silly to think they cant just because you're all up in your feels.  Again, they are exactly what they were expected to be...a good offense (with a real QB) and a historically bad defense.  This was all expected and it played out, being all jammed up about is dumb.  

Lets see what they do this offseason.  Lets see how it plays out on the field after the offseason because guess what?  You dont have a choice.  It's happening no matter what.  JD and Saleh have a vision, whether you believe in it or not, doesnt matter.  Woody Johnson believes.  So we're going to see this play out.  I expect them to get better.  How much better?  We'll see. 

[JustInFudge]

9 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

You are prob right.

But I think a lot depends on 2022 win loss record. Woody panics easily and honestly could you imagine this place and the fan base/media in general if we have another say 6-11 or worse record next year? If you think it’s ugly now….

This plan calls for patience, agreed, but man did they pick the wrong market (NY) to attempt this in 

Fair.  I wont argue that, if they tank again next season that could be all she wrote but I just dont see it happening.  I think with a real QB this season, they could have doubled their win total.  I'm not convinced on Zach by any means, but I have to believe they've learned their lesson with how they botched the QB situation this season.  JD was with a team that won a Super Bowl with a QB backing up the #2 overall pick.  Or at least, I hope he's learned.

 

[maury77]

2 hours ago, JiFapono said:

Meh, same old boring talking points.  Assumptive and silly because nobody is going anywhere, and nobody expected this team to be good.  Literally, everyone, including Vegas, knew this team was winning 3-5 games and guess what?  They're going to win 4.  I know, the horror, how dare they meet the expectations that 95% of working brain community had for this team.

Here are some thoughts and I think if you embrace these logical, reasonable points about the state of the NY Jets, you'll see that this is all to be expected and there is nothing (other than QB play) that says this team doesnt improve drastically next year w/ the assets they have at their disposal and some young players getting crucial experience, that lets be real, we've never actually seen the New York Jets do.  It's always been a major complaint for ALL OF US, let the youngsters play in the lost season.  This team has always kept veterans in the game to earn that next contract.   Herm to Gase.  Saleh is different.

- the 2020 draft was JD's first ever draft. 1st.  The 1st time you do something, you're typically not very good at it.  Especially, when you considered the circumstances.  Wonky offseason w/ covid, couldnt really meet and evaluate the way they have in years past, no combine, bogus college season and he was drafting for a different Head Coach who had a totally different philosophy and system.  I think you can give him a pass considering how good this draft has been in comparison.

- the structure is what everyone has been screaming for literally for years around here.  GM who hired his HC, who reports to GM and HC picked his staff, not forced upon them like years past.  This is the first time we've let this happen since Tanny picked Rex, which was the greatest years of this team's history since the turn of the century. 

- this team sucks.  Bottom 3 rosters in the NFL.  Years of inept drafting and terrible FA's contract from Big Mac and the stench of the worst hire in NFL history, Adam Gase.  Yes, it's going to take 2-3 years to fix that mess.  There was nothing here and Adam Gase was force feeding Frank Gore the record books.  It's about the Jim's and Joe's, not the X's and O's.

- and as bad as this roster is/was, with competent QB play, this team could have probably doubled their win total.  I dont think it's anywhere near as bad as the end record will show.  There has been improvement from this team.  They have not given up.  Yes, the D is bad but the O has also forced them to be on the field for a ridiculous amount of time.  Not good for a young D. 

- the Saleh/JD combination could 100% work out.  People learn from their past experience and mistakes.  I dont take these 2 as complete fools like many regimes of the past.  Nobody on the face of the earth has the crystal ball to tell us what is going to happen for sure.  There are a handful of examples of teams whose current regime started out poorly, maybe even worse than the Jets but a few years later, are suddenly in the playoff hunt.  I know it doesnt feel that way, but the Jets could very easily make that type of jump.  Yes, a large part of this is on Zach Wilson but the good news is, we have the benefit of knowing, this system works with competent QB play.

- The Jets have 4 picks in the first round 2 rounds, 2 in the top 10.  They could turn that into more 1st and 2nd round picks or they could hit on 4 premium players at impact positions, like they did this year and suddenly, the Jets are cooking with fire.

Face it folks, doesnt matter how frustrated you are or what you think of Saleh/JD, they're here at least for the next 2 years.

 

 

I'm going to argue with you merely because we agree with each other 99% of the time and I'm tired of arguing with the same people on the board all the time.

Douglas has a sound theory in place, but he is very poor at executing it thus far. Building through the draft and signing value free agents is the best way to build a team, but you still have to hit on your picks. If you told me to save for retirement by funding an IRA, that is sound advice. If I told you I was funding my IRA by investing in VCRs, I'm not going to do well. 

Yes, the 2020 draft was hamstrung because of Covid, 1st year, etc. However, Wirfs was a higher rated player than Becton by many NFL draft folks and Wirfs has, so far, been a superior player. Douglas had good receivers available in the second when he traded back, but he traded back. That could have been called into question immediately even though many of us (myself included) wanted Mims. Passing on other WRs in the third for Davis and Zuniga was immediately criticized by many of us. Bryce Hall is a nice starter, but let's not pretend he's Revis either. Hall is likely never going to sniff a pro bowl. 

I think the 2021 draft is ok. I'm bored of discussing Wilson. AVT looks like he might turn into a pro bowler, but G is not a high impact decision and I don't know how many extra wins AVT is going to lead to. Moore has looked good, but I think his stats are a little misleading as he has feasted in garbage time. The Carters look like good, solid players, but teams aren't game planning around them either. 

Saleh's decision to surround himself with first timers on his staff was a incredibly stupid idea given how young the roster was. This was immediately noticeable and I mentioned it before the season started. 

Look, sh!t happens sometimes. Darnold busted, but I can't criticize the decision to pick him at 3. He was the #1 QB on many boards and he crapped out. It happens. But Douglas is making so many decisions that I find immediately dubious that I have very little faith that he is going to execute this plan (which is sound in theory) well. 

[Biggs]

25 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

You can disagree all you want, but you're getting there based on emotion and not logic.  It doesnt mean you're right and I'm not even saying I'm right, I'm just saying you dont know, none of us do. There is plenty of enough resources and plenty of enough examples to say that these dudes have a good chance of improving and possibly, significantly if executed well.  Could it not?  Yeah, no sh*t.  The Pats are a terrible comparison and not even worthy of undressing. 

Saying Saleh is a dead man walking, is emotional by premise and lacks any logical understanding of the situation.  He's getting next year for sure, and more than likely 2023 as well. 

The Jets had a great first draft with Saleh and JD. So technically, they're a step ahead of the Taylor regime in Cinci.  Wilson sucks right now which hurts but the beauty of the situation is, we know the offense good to very good with just placement level QB'ing.  And as long as they approach the position appropriately moving forward, they can 100% get better.   

In general, the idea that this team cant/wont get better, is just emotional feely feels and lacks all logic.  If Saleh and JD hit another homerun in the draft, like they did this year, they 100% will be a better team next year.  This is a bottom 3 roster in the league, I dont know how you could possibly think it's going to get worse when you're watching rookies perform and gain valuable experience knowing how much they have available to get better next season.

 

 

I moved back East last year.  I was a season ticket holder in AZ.  I was there when Keim and Arians had a nice run, all the way to the NFC finals.  Arians left and Keim drafted Rosen, signed Bradford to start and hired Steve Wilks as their HC.  Steve Wilks blew away the owner and the GM who was a former GM of the year.  He was a leader of men.  A CEO type who would be instrumental in changing the culture.   They hired an experienced OC and put Rosen on the bench.  Bradford shat the bed from day 1.  Rosen got thrown into the fire and like Zach and Darnold was awful.  They end up with the first pick in the draft.  Dump the HC for an offensive HC who would put their rookie QB in position to succeed day 1.  

I'm not a huge fan of Murray or Kingsbury.  Kingsbury did something interesting with Murray.  He installed Murray's college O and terminology into the O from day 1 and has built on it since.   

Saleh was clearly hired because he's a motivator and CEO type.  As a long time Jets fans with rare exceptions the Jets have usually been successful with coaching staffs that top to bottom are coaches.  Guys who teach and aren't system guys.  Guys who see what kind of players they actually have and scheme based on who they have and what they are facing.   We had two great coaching staffs.  One in the early 60's and one when Parcells was here.  Not surprisingly we got results.

Mangini was probably the best coach and drafter we had and he was run out of town by the same ownership you expect to be patient while Douglas and Saleh graduate from diapers to tidy whity's and finally boxers.  I don't see it with Saleh.  Douglas at least has the pedigree but the longer he is in this building without the people he grew into his position with the worse he will be.  

FYI-Most of these guys fail.  Most of them don't execute well.  Right off the bat they sold us and themselves that Zach was a ready to start product.  Completely sh*t the bed on that one.  Now can they turn it around?  Maybe.  

They aren't going to survive unless they are better than the competition.  Getting better isn't the goal.  The Jets literally can't get worse.  They suck.  Getting better is a low bar.  They have to get better than the rest of the league and in particular the teams in our division.  

As an aside I think you bring a lot to the table.  You would do better making your argument than telling me I'm emotionally attached to my argument.  I see potential in JD.  I see a total fraud in Saleh and I've been watching NFL HC for a very long time.  It doesn't make me right but it also doesn't make me emotional.  

[JustInFudge]

8 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

Hopefully, even at the time many of us were advocating Wirfs over Becton. 
 

JD is no doubt a gambler. Sometimes, I’m more of a play it safe guy. We don’t need to be 15-2 to get in the tournament. Give me a competent team over consistently swinging for the fences and missing which is what we may be looking at with Wilson. 

I think people are overlooking the real possibility and massive implications a Wilson bust would become. And that would be all on JD. 

Hes here in 22 without a doubt. My argument like I made to @JiFapono is that 23 in my eyes is not as safe should the Jets not compete again in 22 regardless of the “plan”

It was down to Becton or Wirfs for me and I admittedly ended up on Becton.  LT, freak, etc.  It was the pick I would have made as well and quite honestly, I'm not ready to give up him but you also have to give credit to JD, he did a great job of creating depth by signing Moses and being able to move Fant, who has been fantastic.  I'm one of those that would actually like to see Becton play RT next year.  

Wilson busting will hurt, no doubt but as I've said before, we know the offense is good to very good.  We have to hope they learned their lesson and they dont go into the season without a legitimate camp competition.  Wilson has not earned being the unquestioned starter next season.

 

[maury77]

14 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

It was down to Becton or Wirfs for me and I admittedly ended up on Becton.  LT, freak, etc.  It was the pick I would have made as well and quite honestly, I'm not ready to give up him but you also have to give credit to JD, he did a great job of creating depth by signing Moses and being able to move Fant, who has been fantastic.  I'm one of those that would actually like to see Becton play RT next year.  

Wilson busting will hurt, no doubt but as I've said before, we know the offense is good to very good.  We have to hope they learned their lesson and they dont go into the season without a legitimate camp competition.  Wilson has not earned being the unquestioned starter next season.

 

In the draft there are misses and there are misses. You and I have been on the same page with Willson since last year, I guess the difference is you are willing to give Douglas more of a pass over it. I felt it was such a bad decision from the start that it is going to be extraordinarily difficult for Douglas to make me a believer again. 

[slats]

18 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Mangini was probably the best coach and drafter we had

Massive loss of credibility right here. Mangenius got run out of Cleveland and, except for a short stint with Jim Harbaugh who opted not to bring him to college, has been out of football ever since. He sucks, and everyone but some odd, hanger-on Jet fans seem to understand it.