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Stephen Ross offered Brian Flores $100,000 for each game he lost/ Flores also suing Giants for racism


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Just now, slimjasi said:

I'm curious (because the Rooney Rule, as currently implemented, doesn't cut it):

 

How can the NFL improve the Rooney rule, as it is currently written and enforced? What, specifically, can be done to enact meaningful change?

I truly wish I knew.

If I had a way to cure racism and bias from the human heart, I wouldn't be wasting my time talking about on a Jets forum.

Anything less will be a flawed solution, no matter how well intentioned.

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3 minutes ago, BallinPB said:

Because I don't put any emphasis on skin color which is why I don't care that it's mostly white coaches.  I do not believe owners are not hiring the candidates because they are black.  I believe they are hiring the best candidates because they want to win no matter their skin color.  

But owners do. That's why it's mostly white coaches.

Are white coaches the best candidates 31 to 1?

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24 minutes ago, BallinPB said:

Didn't they interview 2 black candidates before Flores?  I also hate the Rooney rule so I'm not going to go into that.  

Yep the Giants did but people just shout racism then the truth comes out and makes many of those people look like fools. I like to wait for more information to come out first before commenting on such topics

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4 minutes ago, Tranquilo said:

They're trying to change that too. I know this is hard for you to believe, but black, latino, and asian children like to see themselves in education and on TV. Not just white kids.

So I take that as a yes? How should schools actively seek more males in the field? Maybe the NFL could adopt a similar policy.

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2 minutes ago, Tranquilo said:

But owners do. That's why it's mostly white coaches.

Are white coaches the best candidates 31 to 1?

I think it’s 26-1 right and now and who knows?  To say that it’s based on racism though is simple minded however.  

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25 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

I have a question. Its in jest, but  not really:

If we are worrying about head coaches matching population demographic numbers, why cant white players complain that they are not represented enough AS PLAYERS? Shouldn’t it work both way to be fair? If players are only 25% white shouldnt the NFL take measures to level that playing field as well?

Are you making an argument that white players are excluded from playing in the NFL for racial reasons?

What measures should the league implement to make the league 70% white?

Do you think NFL teams avoid white players because they think white players suck compared to black players, without consideration of their experience and performance?

I might argue that the league is ~70% black because young white kids, in general, have materially better and higher-odds-of-success socio-economic options available to them while growing up (in the vast majority) and don't 'need' to choose a violent, brain damaging sport as a "way out" to the same degree black children do.

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Hey guys!

This is a great thread and up until about now everyone's behavior and comments have been respectful and productive.

This kinda crosses over into politics. So, don't get pissed off and become rude if someone disagrees with you. We all have our opinions and assuming a poster is "racist" without knowing anything about them is infuriating and will get this locked fast.

DONT make me get CRUSHER!!!

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1 minute ago, Warfish said:

Are you making an argument that white players are excluded from playing in the NFL for racial reasons?

What measures should the league implement to make the league 70% white?

Do you think NFL teams avoid white players because they think white players suck compared to black players, without consideration of their experience and performance?

I might argue that the league is ~70% black because young white kids, in general, have materially better and higher-odds-of-success socio-economic options available to them while growing up (in the vast majority) and don't 'need' to choose a violent, brain damaging sport as a "way out" to the same degree black children do.

You have a talent of taking a reasonable statement and breaking it down and hyper analyzing each point.

Youd be a good lawyer. And that's a compliment. 

But you are a classic sophist so I wont entertain you on this one because you know EXACTLY what I was getting at

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3 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

Hey guys!

This is a great thread and up until about now everyone's behavior and comments have been respectful and productive.

This kinda crosses over into politics. So, don't get pissed off and become rude if someone disagrees with you. We all have our opinions and assuming a poster is "racist" without knowing anything about them is infuriating and will get this locked fast.

DONT make me get CRUSHER!!!

Reported

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5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

It's interesting how often white men think nothing is ever due to racism or sexism.

 

I mean walk us through the career path to become an NFL coach. How many position coaches are minorities? Where does that pipeline begin? A lot of former players end up on TV and/or retire with F-U type of money. That would be an obvious pool of people that immediately becomes more limited than it could be.How many position coaches interview for coordinator roles? That’s where the issue probably stems from. The question is if it’s a numbers game or if there are handfuls of minority candidates getting passed over for coordinator roles? It’s typically in the data if people are willing to look. What initiatives is the NFL taking to get more people into coaching? The NBA hires former players and immediately puts them at the top- would that help the league? Does the league overthink what it takes to be a good coach?

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3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

It's interesting how often white men think nothing is ever due to racism or sexism.

 

Can you please provide the data or link us with the studies that provide support for your claim?

or is this your personal opinion

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5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

It's interesting how often white men think nothing is ever due to racism or sexism.

 

Interesting how white men can tell me a black man about what’s racist.

 

am I doing this right?

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3 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

You have a talent of taking a reasonable statement and breaking it down and hyper analyzing each point.

Youd be a good lawyer. And that's a compliment. 

But you are a classic sophist so I wont entertain you on this one because you know EXACTLY what I was getting at

I do.  And I hoped to make you consider the full breadth of what you asked might mean, in both directions.

I assure you HP, there was no ill will against you or your asking the question in my reply.  It's a question that should be asked, and thought about, as to how we got here and why.

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Just now, Warfish said:

I do.  And I hoped to make you consider the full breadth of what you asked might mean, in both directions.

I assure you HP, there was no ill will against you or your asking the question in my reply.  It's a question that should be asked, and thought about, as to how we got here and why.

No Ill will. You annoy me at times, but youre always respectful and insightful. And of course racism exists but IMO this is a weak example of that.

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The practice of hiring is subjective and the bottom line is that people normally hire people that they identify with, can relate to, and share common experiences. So, white owners and white GMs are far more likely to "feel" like the black guy is not as good a candidate as one of the white guys. They don't think they are being racist but, in the end, a qualified black guy is not getting the job. Women faced the same sort of obstacles in the business world in the recent past. Ultimately, squeaky wheels get greased so guys like Flores have to be make noise about the lack of opportunities for qualified black coaches to become HCs because the wait and see approach has failed. There are less black HCs now then when the ill-fated Rooney Rule was put in place. It was a stupid rule because it was form over function and, as a practical matter, people hate being told "You are bad, so I am going to make you do this from now on".

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5 minutes ago, BallinPB said:

Interesting how white men can tell me a black man about what’s racist.

 

am I doing this right?

You could be.

Have you considered that perhaps you don't fall into the majority of people who share your race in your opinions on what is or isn't racist?

If you are black, and you think the NFL has not been racist or exclusionary due to race, you're entitled to that opinion. 

It simply isn't factually accurate, as the NFL itself has admitted, repeatedly.  On this issue, I would accept the NFL's self-analysis of it's historical hiring bias/racism over your own individual opinion that they were not, if I had to weight the two viewpoints.

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2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

 

It simply isn't factually accurate, and the NFL itself has admitted, repeatedly.

Is this a barrier of entry to become a position coach in the league? Not getting the opportunity to be a coordinator? Or is this specifically HC’s?

Herm actually was hired as a DB coach to HC, which is rare. A lot of Jets fans I believe thought he was under qualified.

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1 minute ago, Warfish said:

It simply isn't factually accurate, and the NFL itself has admitted, repeatedly.

Right now the NFL seems to be denying everything that Flores said, though. That's a little worrying to me. 

It seems like they're trying to say they used to be racist but aren't anymore, which I find to have small chance

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14 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

Hey guys!

This is a great thread and up until about now everyone's behavior and comments have been respectful and productive.

This kinda crosses over into politics. So, don't get pissed off and become rude if someone disagrees with you. We all have our opinions and assuming a poster is "racist" without knowing anything about them is infuriating and will get this locked fast.

DONT make me get CRUSHER!!!

You know how to reach me!

 

E4F24732-10C9-4EB8-8899-F37382A4AB83.jpeg

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4 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Is this a barrier of entry to become a position coach in the league? Not getting the opportunity to be a coordinator? Or is this specifically HC’s?

Herm actually was hired as a DB coach to HC, which is rare. A lot of Jets fans I believe thought he was under qualified.

I would offer the root cause is indeed a complex one at various levels of hiring, not singly and explicitly only a "Head Coach" issue.  It involves front offices, and bottom-of-rung position coaching opportunities, and everything in between.

And is had been getting better over time, IMO.  Change takes time.

We have a possible example this cycle:  The Texans considering McCown as their head Coach.  I think it's safe to say two things, 1. There are numerous black coaches who have materially better resumes and more qualifications to be a Head Coach than Josh McCown, and 2. You do not see any NFL teams rushing to promote a black ex-QB to their Head Coach position without any coaching experience whatsoever. 

I'll also repeat, I do NOT think Flores has a case in this specific case, as stated far earlier in the thread.

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10 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

The practice of hiring is subjective and the bottom line is that people normally hire people that they identify with, can relate to, and share common experiences. So, white owners and white GMs are far more likely to "feel" like the black guy is not as good a candidate as one of the white guys. They don't think they are being racist but, in the end, a qualified black guy is not getting the job. Women faced the same sort of obstacles in the business world in the recent past. Ultimately, squeaky wheels get greased so guys like Flores have to be make noise about the lack of opportunities for qualified black coaches to become HCs because the wait and see approach has failed. There are less black HCs now then when the ill-fated Rooney Rule was put in place. It was a stupid rule because it was form over function and, as a practical matter, people hate being told "You are bad, so I am going to make you do this from now on".

It certainly is subjective. But the path to HC is overwhelmingly : position coach- OC/DC- HC. Not subjective at all.

Where does this issue begin is the question and what can you do to improve it? I’m not sure what the numbers are.

how do we grow the coaching profession if it’s in dire need of change? Where do the position coaches come from? Why aren’t coordinators getting hired more frequently? How often do position coaches retire opening up a new spot for someone younger? It’s way more complex than just the NFL is racist 

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Of course we are all talking about race, but the story with actual meat (and specific allegations) is that Ross offered his coach 100K for every loss in 2019. That is a big deal and will have him in hot water for a very long time. 

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Just now, Warfish said:

Have you considered that perhaps you don't fall into the majority of people who share your race in your opinions on what is or isn't racist?

BINGO!  Which is why I cringed when you said "white men" as if people of the same race or gender can't have differing opinions.  

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Can we stop this crap.  Lets remeber we wanted Dabol as a coach, its not racist to take a coach with a certain skill set and the giants wanted an offensive coach who can deal with QBs.  Lets say Flores did a great job with Tua who I belive he did not even want. He didnt and tua did not really meet expectations.  Ross is an a$$hole and I am sure Flores hated him so do you think he got a great recomendation from Ross.   One he should not get a jog because he is black he should get it becuase he is a good coach..  I dont think he is a bad coach but do you consider him a great coach?  The one I always wonder about is Erc bienimy, He is always the bridesmaid and has paid his dues.  He must be a really sh*tty interview.  70% of the players are black, that sounds like a really racist leauge.  Trust me the owners all care about winning a title and will hire a martian if they think it will get them there.  There are just a lot of sh*tty owners out there who do a sh*tty job doing thier due dilligance.

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1 minute ago, BallinPB said:

BINGO!  Which is why I cringed when you said "white men" as if people of the same race or gender can't have differing opinions.  

They absolutely can, I agree completely

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4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I would offer the root cause is indeed a complex one at various levels of hiring, not singly and explicitly only a "Head Coach" issue.  It involves front offices, and bottom-of-rung position coaching opportunities, and everything in between.

And is had been getting better over time, IMO.  Change takes time.

We have a possible example this cycle:  The Texans considering McCown as their head Coach.  I think it's safe to say two things, 1. There are numerous black coaches who have materially better resumes and more qualifications to be a Head Coach than Josh McCown, and 2. You do not see any NFL teams rushing to promote a black ex-QB to their Head Coach position without any coaching experience whatsoever. 

I'll also repeat, I do NOT think Flores has a case in this specific case, as stated far earlier in the thread.

QB coach to HC wouldn’t be unprecedented. I think Zorn was one. I really don’t think Mccown gets that job though.

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4 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Of course we are all talking about race, but the story with actual meat (and specific allegations) is that Ross offered his coach 100K for every loss in 2019. That is a big deal and will have him in hot water for a very long time. 

If Flores has evidence of this then, yes, this is the only story. And it is huge. 

But not certifiable as a class action.  

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