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WR Prospects vs Press Coverage


Tranquilo
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And people still want to take Williams in the Top 10 despite him possibly not being ready until October/November…

Just make a deal for Samuel for Gods sake

Then take Ekwonu at #4 and ship Becton’s ass out of town.

If you can keep #10 while dealing for Deebo, then take Johnson/Karlaftis afterwards.

If not, then double dip with edgerushers in Round 2 with something like a Mafe/Ebiketie combo.

That’s how you do it

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30 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

If you don’t make a trade you still take Williams without question.



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24:25:31:32

Fool hardy and ignorant of what the post just told you. 
 

jameson Williams has run 192 routes vs press man and avg’d less than a fcking yard. 
 

Less than 1. 

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11 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Fool hardy and ignorant of what the post just told you. 
 

jameson Williams has run 192 routes vs press man and avg’d less than a fcking yard. 
 

Less than 1. 

Would it honestly surprise that many people if he ends up being Ted Ginn 2.0?

Solid deep threat on simple go-routes but never ends up living up to his draft status?

Or Robby Anderson for that matter. Who Douglas just let walk out the door two years ago?

I almost expect it

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57 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

And people still want to take Williams in the Top 10 despite him possibly not being ready until October/November…

Just make a deal for Samuel for Gods sake

Then take Ekwonu at #4 and ship Becton’s ass out of town.

If you can keep #10 while dealing for Deebo, then take Johnson/Karlaftis afterwards.

If not, then double dip with edgerushers in Round 2 with something like a Mafe/Ebiketie combo.

That’s how you do it

I have no issue with this. I also like Drake Jackson- although I know he is projected as more of a pass rush specialist rather than an every down lineman.

I would add that, in this scenario, it might make more sense to take an Edge in Rd. 2 and then double up much later on with a more developmental player. Two guys to keep an eye on are Alex Wright out of UAB and Christopher Allen out of 'Bama. There's also guys like Jeffrey Gunter, Jeremiah Moon, and the Edge who recorded the fasted 40 time at the combine ever- Amare Barno, amongst others. 

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1 hour ago, Tranquilo said:

 

Super interesting. There was concern that CeeDee Lamb would struggle against press coverage in the NFL. It can all be figured out, but these stats get one thinking.

I've thought all along that Burks could end up being a total stud. He might become a really physical player who you can put anywhere, like Deebo.

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1 minute ago, Zachtomims47 said:

If Dotson gets to the right situation, I can see him becoming the best pro easily. He’s getting the Elijah Moore treatment. 

I don’t disagree but he’s literally the same player as Moore.

He probably has the best hands in this entire class, I just think he’s a bit redundant for us.

I’m also not sold on him lasting until #35 or #38 despite a pretty lackluster combine.

He’s damn near a shoe-in to be another Emmanuel Sanders and probably goes somewhere in the mid-20’s.

At the end of the day, this big debate among the wideouts is going to mean jack.

The Jets are going to end up making a move for a guy like Deebo within the next 4 days. You aren’t willing to give up #35, #38 and #69 for a 28 year old Tyreek Hill in addition to paying him $30 million a year if you’re in love with this WR class when you have 4 picks in the Top 38 alone.

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8 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

If Dotson gets to the right situation, I can see him becoming the best pro easily. He’s getting the Elijah Moore treatment. 

Really like Dotson. Strikes me as a really smart and technical WR.

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4 minutes ago, PepPep said:

I have no issue with this. I also like Drake Jackson- although I know he is projected as more of a pass rush specialist rather than an every down lineman.

I would add that, in this scenario, it might make more sense to take an Edge in Rd. 2 and then double up much later on with a more developmental player. Two guys to keep an eye on are Alex Wright out of UAB and Christopher Allen out of 'Bama. There's also guys like Jeffrey Gunter, Jeremiah Moon, and the Edge who recorded the fasted 40 time at the combine ever- Amare Barno, amongst others. 

Agreed, especially on Barno.

I’m a big Hokies fan, and while I don’t see him ever being an every down player, I can absolutely see him being a 5-6 sack a year specialist on 3rd downs.

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14 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

I don’t disagree but he’s literally the same player as Moore.

He probably has the best hands in this entire class, I just think he’s a bit redundant for us.

I’m also not sold on him lasting until #35 or #38 despite a pretty lackluster combine.

He’s damn near a shoe-in to be another Emmanuel Sanders and probably goes somewhere in the mid-20’s.

At the end of the day, this big debate among the wideouts is going to mean jack.

The Jets are going to end up making a move for a guy like Deebo within the next 4 days. You aren’t willing to give up #35, #38 and #69 for a 28 year old Tyreek Hill in addition to paying him $30 million a year if you’re in love with this WR class when you have 4 picks in the Top 38 alone.

I didn’t mean for the Jets. But now that you mention it, having 2 Moores seems pretty OK to me. 

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34 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

Would it honestly surprise that many people if he ends up being Ted Ginn 2.0?

Solid deep threat on simple go-routes but never ends up living up to his draft status?

Or Robby Anderson for that matter. Who Douglas just let walk out the door two years ago?

I almost expect it

He's far more than that.  His stop and go speed and his explosiveness makes him very special.  

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50 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Fool hardy and ignorant of what the post just told you. 
 

jameson Williams has run 192 routes vs press man and avg’d less than a fcking yard. 
 

Less than 1. 

I'm not sure what your problem is but I can have an opinion without you calling me ignorant.  The nastiness is old.

Now to the point.  He was so bad yet he went for over 1,500 yards and 15 TD's in 2021.   He's an explosive player,  that has amazing stop and go speed with a second gear when he gets into the open field.  He's far more than just a deep threat.   He can learn to beat press and/or you can put him in motion to beat it.   Getting him the ball won't be a problem.

You may not like him and that's a fine opinion to have - but to call someone ignorant and be completely dismissive of the belief that he'll the best WR in this class is just ridiculous.  He may fail, he may not - but the opinion is shared by many and is completely valid.

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12 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

He's far more than that.  His stop and go speed and his explosiveness makes him very special.  

His speed is really his biggest attribute.

I get that “speed kills”, but you have to have something beyond that.

I don’t think that he’s a sh*t prospect whose value is being totally overblown, especially as a part of this lackluster class.

But when you factor in that he’s been doo-doo with DB’s roughing him up at the line, isn’t exactly known as a scrapper, is coming off an ACL just 3 months ago that will likely keep him out the first 4-8 weeks of a season in which we’re desperately trying to figure out if our prized young QB is “the guy”, transferred away from Ohio State because he couldn’t elevate himself to anything more than 4th/5th in the pecking order…this is far from the slam dunk pick that his supporters would have you believe.

Garrett Wilson is still easily the cleanest receiver in this class…and I’d still rather make a move for a proven commodity like Deebo.

We have the money and the assets…make it happen.

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Those stats seem a bit misleading, even though I like Burks a lot.  He faced press 1 /10th as many times as dotson?

Yards per rout what is that actually saying?  Is this actually yards after catching the ball?  Total yards divided by press?

Would like to see some nfl comparables to this stat to give it more meaning.

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1 hour ago, Paradis said:

Fool hardy and ignorant of what the post just told you. 
 

jameson Williams has run 192 routes vs press man and avg’d less than a fcking yard. 
 

Less than 1. 

Well if you take this tact Burks is a god and the rest are all utter garbage.

1600 yards and 15 tds in the sec, looks like he feasted on non press.

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3 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

His speed is really his biggest attribute.

I get that “speed kills”, but you have to have something beyond that.

I don’t think that he’s a sh*t prospect whose value is being totally overblown, especially as a part of this lackluster class.

But when you factor in that he’s been doo-doo with DB’s roughing him up at the line, isn’t exactly known as a scrapper, is coming off an ACL just 3 months ago that will likely keep him out the first 4-8 weeks of a season in which we’re desperately trying to figure out if our prized young QB is “the guy”, transferred away from Ohio State because he couldn’t elevate himself to anything more than 4th/5th in the pecking order…this is far from the slam dunk pick that his supporters would have you believe.

Garrett Wilson is still easily the cleanest receiver in this class…and I’d still rather make a move for a proven commodity like Deebo.

We have the money and the assets…make it happen.

I'm not a fan of Wilson - Surely the cleanest, completely agree.  I just think he's, IMO, lacking in big upside.  

Williams is far more than just "fast" though - there are plenty of fast guys - that don't go for 1500 and 15 TD's.  When I use the word explosive - it's not just the 40 time -  it's the quick speed, the stop and go speed.  the second gear he has when he needs it.  He can quickly stop and accelerate to top speed very quickly.  Making any slight miss means he's getting open.  Very little room for error for defenders. 

Look, of course he can bust - no question.  Of course Wilson or London (or anyone else) can end up being the better player.....and yes, I also agree he's the riskiest of the three.

But, I believe his upside is sooo much bigger that that risk is worth taking.

Just my opinion.

 

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15 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I'm not a fan of Wilson - Surely the cleanest, completely agree.  I just think he's, IMO, lacking in big upside.  

Williams is far more than just "fast" though - there are plenty of fast guys - that don't go for 1500 and 15 TD's.  When I use the word explosive - it's not just the 40 time -  it's the quick speed, the stop and go speed.  the second gear he has when he needs it.  He can quickly stop and accelerate to top speed very quickly.  Making any slight miss means he's getting open.  Very little room for error for defenders. 

Look, of course he can bust - no question.  Of course Wilson or London (or anyone else) can end up being the better player.....and yes, I also agree he's the riskiest of the three.

But, I believe his upside is sooo much bigger that that risk is worth taking.

Just my opinion.

 

Overall that’s pretty fair, but like I said, I’d be pretty damn shocked at this point if the Jets don’t trade for a wideout.

They have the cap space, they have the draft capital, and with the failed Tyreek Hill trade it’s been announced to the entire football world that the Jets will give up premium assets and dish out a top of the market contract for a legitimate #1 WR.

Now suddenly you have a 26 year old just entering his prime who has 3 years experience in this very same system, with a close relationship with our current offensive coordinator, who is now straight up saying that he doesn’t want to be retained by his current team, which itself has very close ties to our new HC and coaching staff as a whole…

Douglas and Saleh both know that they’re going as far as Zach Wilson goes.

They’re attached at the hip and just took a young QB #2 overall 12 months ago.

I’ll continue to believe that either Deebo, Metcalf, McLaurin or Brown will be a Jet until the #35 pick is announced on Friday night and we haven’t drafted a receiver yet.

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54 minutes ago, 65 Toss Power Trap said:

Super interesting. There was concern that CeeDee Lamb would struggle against press coverage in the NFL. It can all be figured out, but these stats get one thinking.

I've thought all along that Burks could end up being a total stud. He might become a really physical player who you can put anywhere, like Deebo.

As this draft process plays out, I find myself liking Burks more and more.  Just a feeling I have about him…

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1 hour ago, Paradis said:

Fool hardy and ignorant of what the post just told you. 
 

jameson Williams has run 192 routes vs press man and avg’d less than a fcking yard. 
 

Less than 1. 

Still like me some Treylon “bore hunting with only a knife” Burks. 
 

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31 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

Overall that’s pretty fair, but like I said, I’d be pretty damn shocked at this point if the Jets don’t trade for a wideout.

They have the cap space, they have the draft capital, and with the failed Tyreek Hill trade it’s been announced to the entire football world that the Jets will give up premium assets and dish out a top of the market contract for a legitimate #1 WR.

Now suddenly you have a 26 year old just entering his prime who has 3 years experience in this very same system, with a close relationship with our current offensive coordinator, who is now straight up saying that he doesn’t want to be retained by his current team, which itself has very close ties to our new HC and coaching staff as a whole…

Douglas and Saleh both know that they’re going as far as Zach Wilson goes.

They’re attached at the hip and just took a young QB #2 overall 12 months ago.

I’ll continue to believe that either Deebo, Metcalf, McLaurin or Brown will be a Jet until the #35 pick is announced on Friday night and we haven’t drafted a receiver yet.

Completely agree.  I believe there is a far better chance than not that one of those WR's will be a Jet before the draft.

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

I'm not sure what your problem is but I can have an opinion without you calling me ignorant.  The nastiness is old.

Now to the point.  He was so bad yet he went for over 1,500 yards and 15 TD's in 2021.   He's an explosive player,  that has amazing stop and go speed with a second gear when he gets into the open field.  He's far more than just a deep threat.   He can learn to beat press and/or you can put him in motion to beat it.   Getting him the ball won't be a problem.

You may not like him and that's a fine opinion to have - but to call someone ignorant and be completely dismissive of the belief that he'll the best WR in this class is just ridiculous.  He may fail, he may not - but the opinion is shared by many and is completely valid.

disagree. It's frustrating because people present you with information counter to points to your "absolute" take on this or that - and there's no sense of malleability. I could present you with a receiver coach breaking down issues with the player, and still get a "ahhhhh no", which I would argue is ignorant. I'm not saying it with malice. 

Keyarris Garrett threw up a Div-1 leading 96/1500/8 a few years ago. He never played a down in the NFL. Stat lines don't guarantee some herculian future state in the NFL.  "he can learn to beat, press" ....yea that sounds promising. I'm not a Williams hater, I would like to have him on the team, but I wouldn't spend a 1st round pick on him, that's for sure. There's too much undeveloped parts of his game, and too much production came from a 1-trick pony formation.  Also, he doesn't have great stop and start speed. He's super fast, but he is not sudden. 

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

I'm not a fan of Wilson - Surely the cleanest, completely agree.  I just think he's, IMO, lacking in big upside.  

Williams is far more than just "fast" though - there are plenty of fast guys - that don't go for 1500 and 15 TD's.  When I use the word explosive - it's not just the 40 time -  it's the quick speed, the stop and go speed.  the second gear he has when he needs it.  He can quickly stop and accelerate to top speed very quickly.  Making any slight miss means he's getting open.  Very little room for error for defenders. 

 

Point me to the film where he runs a 5-8 yard dig or in route with this stop and go speed. Doesn't exist... I'm open to being wrong, but he finds success one way for the most part. Just outrunning people.

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24 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Point me to the film where he runs a 5-8 yard dig or in route with this stop and go speed. Doesn't exist... I'm open to being wrong, but he finds success one way for the most part. Just outrunning people.

Here you go..

I think this is a pretty good example...showing the stop and go and why he's sooo good at it..

And then after that is showing the stop route you're looking for.  If you just want to see the stop route it's about at 4:30 or so.  But I think the full video is pretty good and worthwhile.

There's a lot of this, but I'm going to bed :-)

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Paradis said:

disagree. It's frustrating because people present you with information counter to points to your "absolute" take on this or that - and there's no sense of malleability. I could present you with a receiver coach breaking down issues with the player, and still get a "ahhhhh no", which I would argue is ignorant. I'm not saying it with malice. 

Keyarris Garrett threw up a Div-1 leading 96/1500/8 a few years ago. He never played a down in the NFL. Stat lines don't guarantee some herculian future state in the NFL.  "he can learn to beat, press" ....yea that sounds promising. I'm not a Williams hater, I would like to have him on the team, but I wouldn't spend a 1st round pick on him, that's for sure. There's too much undeveloped parts of his game, and too much production came from a 1-trick pony formation.  Also, he doesn't have great stop and start speed. He's super fast, but he is not sudden. 

I absolutely acknowledge his flaws and concerns I have for him.  I've posted them many times.  I recognize the risks for sure.  I just think his upside is worth taking those risks.  

As I've said, I can understand you not wanting him at 10 - I can see the reasons not to...I just don't agree with that is all I'm saying.  It's okay for both opinions to be valid at this point (one of us is likely to eventually be proven right)

All that being said - for better or worse I think Deebo is a Jet by Tues. and this is all moot.  

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4 hours ago, Untouchable said:

And people still want to take Williams in the Top 10 despite him possibly not being ready until October/November…

Just make a deal for Samuel for Gods sake

Then take Ekwonu at #4 and ship Becton’s ass out of town.

If you can keep #10 while dealing for Deebo, then take Johnson/Karlaftis afterwards.

If not, then double dip with edgerushers in Round 2 with something like a Mafe/Ebiketie combo.

That’s how you do it

 

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3 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Here you go..

I think this is a pretty good example...showing the stop and go and why he's sooo good at it..

And then after that is showing the stop route you're looking for.  If you just want to see the stop route it's about at 4:30 or so.  But I think the full video is pretty good and worthwhile.

There's a lot of this, but I'm going to bed :-)

 

 

Thanks for sharing and appreciate you taking the time..

But this video worked against you somewhat. Nice stop and go, sure. The other two supported my concerns in some ways. The narrator pointed out how long it took him to stop. The only reason it worked was the 6 yard cushion he started with. I still havent seen him work the outside properly. Again, not saying he can’t at all, or won’t be lethal. For me though, gotta be the total package to be top 10 talk.


 

 

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3 hours ago, Untouchable said:

transferred away from Ohio State because he couldn’t elevate himself to anything more than 4th/5th in the pecking order…this is far from the slam dunk pick that his supporters would have you believe.

If a Mims gets traded and starts to dominate on some other team, would that be an indictment on him or this coaching staff?

Just because the Ohio St didnt see what they had or was sticking with their proven guys doesnt say much about a player that transered to Alabama and became a dominate WR in the SEC.

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56 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

There is no other WR in the draft that has as good take to the house on any given play ability.  (If he has not lost a step due to injury.)

Wouldn’t disagree… on any given play, where has free release and runs a post. 

i jest. He’s a lid lifter. Would welcome him at #35 or maybe even a trade up to 27 or something. 

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They had Williams as the 3rd ranked guy vs press coverage lol.

Galina: Top five wide receivers against press coverage in 2022 NFL Draft

3. JAMESON WILLIAMS, ALABAMA
2021 Receiving Grade vs. Press: 72.8
This is a tough evaluation because Williams doesn’t have many moves against press coverage. He’s the type of receiver to give cornerbacks a quick hesitation off the line of scrimmage and then use his world-class speed to gain separation. There isn’t a ton of nuance, but it’s hard to think even NFL cornerbacks can stay with him every down step-for-step. 

He’s not totally a one-trick pony, as he does show an ability to swipe defenders' hands away in case of emergency and gets open via the six-yard hitch often. There’s enough to warrant the idea that he has some of those tools in his locker but doesn’t necessarily need to use them at this stage in his career, and that will certainly change. That’s why he’s still ranked so highly here. 

 

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Meanwhile in 2020:

Quote

Biggest Con: Never proved he could win on the outside
In 2018, spent most of his time as an outside receiver — as opposed to the slot, which is where he lined up for 98.6% of his snaps in 2019 — and he was pretty poor against single coverage; he recorded a PFF grade that didn't crack the top 100, and he caught under 70% of his catchable targets. For that reason, we aren’t as high as everyone else on him. He never proved he could beat press coverage, which is one of the biggest things we want to see from a wide receiver prospect.

That prospects name? That guy they ranked behind Laviska Shenault and Jalen Reagor?

Justin Jefferson.

**** PFF.

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