National rhetoric around Zachs victimhood

[football guy]

3 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Question, is he here next season?  And if not are the jets inclined to not pick a qb in the draft and wait another year?

I don't know. I think they will let the season play out, give it some time to let everyone cool down, and at some point they'll sit with him and figure out whether he wants a fresh start somewhere else or try the original plan again- come back and be Aaron's backup. 

[doitny]

8 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

All this for 300 yards and two uncovered short TD passes.

this is crazy right? Zach does this to people.

we will see when Miami double teams GW the only WR Zach throws to what happens next week.

he only throws to 3 people...GW...a TE.. and Hall. thats it. 

every once in a while teams forget this.

[Jet Nut]

29 minutes ago, Kleckineau said:

Try "watching" with your eyes open next week.

Try telling us what happened without having to protect all the he sucks posts. 

Anyone claiming Zach didn’t ball is kidding themselves or is the one who was watching with their eyes closed.  

Don’t worry, he’ll play like garbage again, this was one game.  But suck it up and admit,  he played really well 

[Adoni Beast]

11 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Question, is he here next season?  And if not are the jets inclined to not pick a qb in the draft and wait another year?

I think that all depends on these last 4 games. If he looks good then he should be since their original plan was to have him sit and learn for a couple of seasons.

If he plays well the last 4 then they should keep to their original plan. But, I think they need to bite the bullet and sign another QB as well and have some clear understanding that during camp the #2 spot will be an open competition and whoever gets it, the other can sit and learn.

Also, when he plays the team needs to play and gameplan to his strengths or don't have him on the roster. It's really that simple. At this point in his career he is good at a certain style and cannot analyze pre-snap or statue stand and go through 4-5 reads every down. If you can't handle that then trade him away. Don't have seafood on the menu if you can't cook it, ya dig?

[bonkertons]

23 minutes ago, Adoni Beast said:

Here's the thing though...

1. Progressive individuals in any industry buck the trend. They don't say well everyone else plays their #2 right away so we have to. So they're cowards if that's their thinking

2. If you really wanted him to play and learn, then you should have still had competition to replace for injury or poor play. 

3. Your last point is precisely the biggest issue I have with this organization --- They let the mob dictate too much. We should have hire Mike McCarthy, but they let Mehta Manish use propaganda from the mob. They should have hired Doug Marrone (he was very meh but a better coach than Bowles) but they again let Mehta Manish be the spokesperson for the mob and sway their feelings. They should have stuck with Fitzpatrick all of 2016 (would it have made a real difference? Maybe a couple of wins, but Petty wasn't ready to play)..etc. etc. etc.

I'm just saying - "buck the trend" is all well and good but it's just the way sh*t has been forever.  Also like I said, you can have every intention of letting him learn, but that 2021 team was going to be BAD no matter who the QB was, and it wouldn't have been long til the Zach petitions started.  You say that shouldn't matter, but it does. 

 

They will probably always cave to fan pressure, to some degree at least.  NY isn't like most markets.  If sh*t gets bad and Woody comes calling with the "hey...play the kid", what do you do?  "No, Mr. Johnson".  OK - you're fired.  Not to say Woody's like that, but I really wouldn't be surprised.  

 

Then again, I'm really not a fan of the black and white "this guy is not allowed to touch the field in year one no matter what" type sh*t.  That strategy is all well and good in theory, but if you as a head coach can't evaluate when your player is ready based on how he's performing in practice, and instead defer to some arbitrary timeline....I'm not sure you're the right HC to be developing a QB.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Adoni Beast said:

I think that all depends on these last 4 games. If he looks good then he should be since their original plan was to have him sit and learn for a couple of seasons.

If he plays well the last 4 then they should keep to their original plan. But, I think they need to bite the bullet and sign another QB as well and have some clear understanding that during camp the #2 spot will be an open competition and whoever gets it, the other can sit and learn.

Also, when he plays the team needs to play and gameplan to his strengths or don't have him on the roster. It's really that simple. At this point in his career he is good at a certain style and cannot analyze pre-snap or statue stand and go through 4-5 reads every down. If you can't handle that then trade him away. Don't have seafood on the menu if you can't cook it, ya dig?

He wants to play like farve but doesn’t score enough to offset the turnovers and thus the risks.  If a qb throws 4 tds and 3 picks that’s 28 pts your team scores.  So if wilson can figure out how to score more, then he can play more openly and zing it.  The d can hold up good enough.  But if this game is just an aberration and he goes down to miami and looks bad again, well, then you know.  Odds are this game was more aberrational than the beginning of an upward trend.  Plus i suspect Wilson’s camp wants him out.

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

24 minutes ago, football guy said:

Rhetoric is just that: rhetoric. The national rhetoric was also to sh*t on Zach every chance they got when things didn't go well for him. These are all just takes that lack context. 

Zach has a lot of talent. Its been clear that was the case since he joined the league. The problem has been that he and the Jets have struggled to find a balance of letting him play to his strengths while also having him play boring football within the schemes/philosophy our coaches have designed for him. There have been a number of road blocks and blame can/should be placed on himself, the coaches, the organization, media, etc. His career has largely been a series of unfortunate events, and I think his teammates, fellow players around the league, former players, etc. have picked up on it and are making their opinions known. 

Simple:  Change the philosophy to cater to his strengths.

Square peg into round hole thing … would be on the GM and coaches.

Next few weeks will be interesting.  Heavy money will still be on Zach to crap the bed .. for obvious reasons.

I’m rooting for the kid to prove his understandable doubters wrong (for which I am still one).  Let him throw early and often … we have nothing to lose.  Let the other teams play tight.

If loose Zach balls out, this will be a HUGE INDICTMENT on how he had been reprogrammed.  Worth a $50 bet and should make the games watchable.

[Adoni Beast]

1 minute ago, bonkertons said:

They will probably always cave to fan pressure, to some degree at least.  NY isn't like most markets.  If sh*t gets bad and Woody comes calling with the "hey...play the kid", what do you do?  "No, Mr. Johnson".  OK - you're fired.  Not to say Woody's like that, but I really wouldn't be surprised.  

I hate to give the Giants credit but they do a vastly better job at navigating this scenario than we do. Eli was killed by the media for the first 3 season and really first 4 seasons. It wasn't until late in his 4th year where it clicked and then he went on to have a great career.

The Giants stuck with him and their plan the entire time and didn't throw him under the bus or get all embarrassed, and the same with Daniel Jones to a degree who had a great year last season. Now, I don't Jones is great or will be the guy for them but they don't let the media dictate their plans. I can appreciate that.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Adoni Beast said:

I hate to give the Giants credit but they do a vastly better job at navigating this scenario than we do. Eli was killed by the media for the first 3 season and really first 4 seasons. It wasn't until late in his 4th year where it clicked and then he went on to have a great career.

The Giants stuck with him and their plan the entire time and didn't throw him under the bus or get all embarrassed, and the same with Daniel Jones to a degree who had a great year last season. Now, I don't Jones is great or will be the guy for them but they don't let the media dictate their plans. I can appreciate that.

Eli was groomed to be a pro style pocket passer and just needed time.  Wilson is a college qb who mostly seems out of his depth in this league. 

[All Gas, No Gase]

24 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

All this for 300 yards and two uncovered short TD passes.

Did you forget were you are posting at? This is JN, remember?

[Biggs]

2 hours ago, Jet hustle said:

Seems like everyone is blaming the Jets Org for Zach sucking for the past 3 years.  Just a  bizarre take if you have actually watched him play.  Even Rex Ryan is going hard on this Hot Take.   It's just perplexing to me

It's okay to think Zach naturally sucks.  To think the Jets aren't a dysfunctional organization who mishandled him is amazing to me.  It's as if you guys think the Jets aren't actually a joke organization.  Have you been a fan for 10 minutes. 

It's either both are true or the Jets are totally at fault.  

[UntouchableCrew]

The whole thing is bizarre, because like, Sam Darnold had a legit gripe with the Jets. I'm not sure it would have mattered (guy was likely always going to be a turnover machine) but the Jets very much saddled him with bad offensive coaches, changing schemes and zero talent at WR.

But nobody cried any tears for Darnold who is roughly 1000x more likable than Zach Wilson.

Meanwhile Zach Wilson (who has seemingly rubbed virtually everyone who has ever met him the wrong way) has been so unbelievably bad at QB that he is almost single handedly responsible for submarining the Jets otherwise respectable rebuild. With replacement level QB play the Jets are likely on the verge of winning back to back AFC East titles.

The guy has been allergic to accountability, had the team wearing "Mike F'n" White" T-shirts and committing mutiny over his play all while Bob Saleh sells his credibility at the media pulpit every week to make excuses for him -- but somehow THIS GUY is the victim in all of this?

It's honestly outrageous. The victims are the season ticket holders spending a significant amount of their disposable income to watch this guy play QB.

[T0mShane]

Xavier Gipson took a reverse and—I’ve never seen this before—gets to edge, stops dead in his tracks, stands on his tiptoes looking where to cut, and finds out that there are no Texans in front of him and he just kind of saunters into the end zone. If the Mina Kimes set is making this an anti-Jets thing, it’s because they don’t want to talk about how their beloved COTY candidate DeMeco Ryans got his ears boxed by national laughingstocks Nate Hackett and Zach Wilson. You can be sure that, by Wednesday, they’ll go back to their LOLZach Wilson shtick when they have to preview Jets-Dolphins because McDaniel is their other COTY genius. 

[Biggs]

24 minutes ago, football guy said:

I don't know. I think they will let the season play out, give it some time to let everyone cool down, and at some point they'll sit with him and figure out whether he wants a fresh start somewhere else or try the original plan again- come back and be Aaron's backup. 

If Aaron is really going to start next year Zach should really try and force his way off the roster.  There are several teams that need a starting QB.  He's go an opportunity to start and maybe earn a lot of money.  If Rodgers starts playing the I might retire or stick around game it puts Zach and the organization in a bad position to properly compensate him as a starter. 

[#27TheDominator]

13 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

The problem is that they hired a whole coaching staff, drafted a qb at #2 and put everyone on one coach’s shoulders.  If a head coach can’t figure out how to develop a qb he has no business being a hc.  Winning in the nfl is mostly about doing this

I don't think that is particularly fair.  They hired three guys that should have had some hand in that.  LaFleur, Knapp and Calabrese.  All were highly regarded, though we are not sure what level LaFleur and Calabrese belonged.  I think LaFleur was pretty much stuck coordinating and doesn't seem like he was able/willing to spend the requisite time with Wilson.  I am not sure what Calabrese offers.  People like him but I feel like he was the one that should have been handling this sh*t. 

Knapp's death left a hole, but people act like they shrugged their shoulders, said **** it and didn't try anything else.  LaFleur coached from field level even though he stated he preferred the booth because Zach wanted him in his ear.  I believe the first time MLF went in the booth was the Mike ******* White breakout game.  They brought in Matt Cavanaugh who had plenty of experience and was actually a friend of Knapp's.  That obviously didn't work out, so they moved on after they year.  When things were going bad, they also hired Zach's own personal QB coach, John Beck.  He still sucked.  I honestly wonder if the little sh*t finally cleaning up his mechanics can be attributed to Downing who was a fairly sh*tty OC in Tennessee, but had a pretty good rep as a QB coach with Detroit (Stafford) and Oakland (Carr).  

[Flea Flicking Frank]

30 minutes ago, doitny said:

the Texans did the exact same thing.  they got a 1st time DC to be HC and a 1st time OC.

and they came from the Same TEAM Saleh and Milf came from..

and they did the SAME jobs at SF that Saleh and Milf did.

except they picked the right QB who will win ROTY. we didnt.

oh, ok, thanks for clearing that up sporty spice

[slimjasi]

2 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

The hard truth in this is that our society has been formed around everything being a binary choice.

Zach is not good. He had 1 good game in 3 years, yesterday. The Jets org is not good. They have failed miserably at everything for half a century.

Believe it or not, both things can and have contributed to this.

This is exactly it 

[Larz]

42 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

All this for 300 yards and two uncovered short TD passes.

I thought you liked Mike white?

[cat999]

Why would any Jet fans be upset by this narrative? If true, then maybe we have an heir apparent to Rodgers. If false, but enough people believe it, then we have the chance to move Zach for a much better return than expected. 

[bonkertons]

20 minutes ago, Adoni Beast said:

I hate to give the Giants credit but they do a vastly better job at navigating this scenario than we do. Eli was killed by the media for the first 3 season and really first 4 seasons. It wasn't until late in his 4th year where it clicked and then he went on to have a great career.

The Giants stuck with him and their plan the entire time and didn't throw him under the bus or get all embarrassed, and the same with Daniel Jones to a degree who had a great year last season. Now, I don't Jones is great or will be the guy for them but they don't let the media dictate their plans. I can appreciate that.

I mean we have kind of done that with our top picks.  Darnold and now Zach.  I guess the difference is we gave them 3 years and not 4, but there are many that were calling for us to get rid of them after 2 years.  That said I don't think there's really any comparison to Eli and any QB we've drafted outside of maybe Sanchez.  Eli's numbers were pretty respectable years 2 and 3.  If Darnold played at the level of his 2nd season in year 3, he probably would have gotten a 4th year.  Maybe even a 5th.  He was terrible in year 3 though.  We were hoping for him to take yet another step and he essentially fell off a cliff.  I think had Eli had a year like that in year 3, he probably would have been gone as well.

 

Overall though I agree with the sentiment that we should be patient with our QBs, however I'd only be patient if they are showing me SOMETHING.  Some kind of progress or development.  

[Integrity28]

2 hours ago, Larz said:

Maybe because the head coach said that he was going to let him play eff it football and he had his best game?

yall playing twister trying to pretend it didn’t happen lol. 

must be society today 😂

Ooh, so edgy!!!

 

[bicketybam]

All this for 300 yards and two uncovered short TD passes.

So they have a stat for covered and uncovered TD passes? How would a covered TD pass work? If they receiver is covered than he technically shouldn't catch the ball

[Ken Schroy]

37 minutes ago, doitny said:

this is crazy right? Zach does this to people.

we will see when Miami double teams GW the only WR Zach throws to what happens next week.

he only throws to 3 people...GW...a TE.. and Hall. thats it. 

every once in a while teams forget this.

Gibson and Cobb caught a pass. But this is just silly. Zach isn't good but "he only throws to 3 people"? LMAO

[football guy]

10 minutes ago, Biggs said:

If Aaron is really going to start next year Zach should really try and force his way off the roster.  There are several teams that need a starting QB.  He's go an opportunity to start and maybe earn a lot of money.  If Rodgers starts playing the I might retire or stick around game it puts Zach and the organization in a bad position to properly compensate him as a starter. 

I think Zach is in a weird spot because he really does believe there was a lot to gain by sitting behind Aaron, learning his process, and applying it to his own game. You have to remember that his mentor is Steve Young, who spent 5 years as Joe Montana's backup and wound up taking over for good in that 5th year (his age 30 season). 

What Zach wants is an opportunity to maximize his potential and be the best possible player he can be. He isn't going to retire or quit. He's not motivated by money. He wants to be good and he wants to win. If he thinks the best chance at that is spending more time here behind Aaron, than I think the fences will mend. If he thinks he's ready to go somewhere and compete to be a starter, I think the Jets will grant him that wish. 

[Larz]

2 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Ooh, so edgy!!!

 

Meh.   You guys in a club ? Sounds lit 

[Ken Schroy]

22 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

The whole thing is bizarre, because like, Sam Darnold had a legit gripe with the Jets. I'm not sure it would have mattered (guy was likely always going to be a turnover machine) but the Jets very much saddled him with bad offensive coaches, changing schemes and zero talent at WR.

But nobody cried any tears for Darnold who is roughly 1000x more likable than Zach Wilson.

Meanwhile Zach Wilson (who has seemingly rubbed virtually everyone who has ever met him the wrong way) has been so unbelievably bad at QB that is has almost single handedly responsible for submarining the Jets otherwise respectable rebuild. With replacement level QB play the Jets are likely on the verge of winning back to back AFC East titles.

The guy has been allergic to accountability, had the team wearing "Mike F'n" White" T-shirts and commuting mutiny over his play all while Bob Saleh sells his credibility at the media pulpit every week to make excuses for him -- but somehow THIS GUY is the victim in all of this?

It's honestly outrageous. The victims are the season ticket holders spending a significant amount of their disposable income to watch this guy play QB.

More silliness. His teammates were liking him it seems. Did you meet him and he rubbed you the wrong way?

[Biggs]

1 minute ago, football guy said:

I think Zach is in a weird spot because he really does believe there was a lot to gain by sitting behind Aaron, learning his process, and applying it to his own game. You have to remember that his mentor is Steve Young, who spent 5 years as Joe Montana's backup and wound up taking over for good in that 5th year (his age 30 season). 

What Zach wants is an opportunity to maximize his potential and be the best possible player he can be. He isn't going to retire or quit. He's not motivated by money. He wants to be good and he wants to win. If he thinks the best chance at that is spending more time here behind Aaron, than I think the fences will mend. If he thinks he's ready to go somewhere and compete to be a starter, I think the Jets will grant him that wish. 

I think he wants to run a team and get the support of the coaching staff and GM.  The Jets coaching staff and GM bailed on him when they signed Rodgers.  It would have been nice for him to sit this year but at this point he needs to move on. 

[Adoni Beast]

34 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

He wants to play like farve but doesn’t score enough to offset the turnovers and thus the risks.  If a qb throws 4 tds and 3 picks that’s 28 pts your team scores.  So if wilson can figure out how to score more, then he can play more openly and zing it.  The d can hold up good enough.  But if this game is just an aberration and he goes down to miami and looks bad again, well, then you know.  Odds are this game was more aberrational than the beginning of an upward trend.  Plus i suspect Wilson’s camp wants him out.

I think Wilson wants to be gone and I think that the team wants to move on.

However, if somehow he replicates yesterday's game for the rest of the season I think the team and AR8 talk him into staying. The most likely case we go back to the 157 yards 0 TD, 1 INT games we've become accustomed to and he'll be on SFs roster next year.

[Adoni Beast]

31 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Eli was groomed to be a pro style pocket passer and just needed time.  Wilson is a college qb who mostly seems out of his depth in this league. 

Agreed and I'm not necessarily comparing the two QBs or their ceiling. I am just saying what the organizational difference is and the fact is Eli was trashed by fans and media his first 3 1/2 seasons and they didn't flinch.

[Integrity28]

2 minutes ago, Larz said:

Meh.   You guys in a club ? Sounds lit 

[Biggs]

47 minutes ago, doitny said:

this is crazy right? Zach does this to people.

we will see when Miami double teams GW the only WR Zach throws to what happens next week.

he only throws to 3 people...GW...a TE.. and Hall. thats it. 

every once in a while teams forget this.

Only throwing to those 3 players is what any smart good QB would do.  He did throw a TD to Cobb yesterday.  I'm guessing he didn't know Cobb was active and threw it to him by mistake. 

[Adoni Beast]

8 minutes ago, bonkertons said:

I mean we have kind of done that with our top picks.  Darnold and now Zach.  I guess the difference is we gave them 3 years and not 4, but there are many that were calling for us to get rid of them after 2 years.  That said I don't think there's really any comparison to Eli and any QB we've drafted outside of maybe Sanchez.  Eli's numbers were pretty respectable years 2 and 3.  If Darnold played at the level of his 2nd season in year 3, he probably would have gotten a 4th year.  Maybe even a 5th.  He was terrible in year 3 though.  We were hoping for him to take yet another step and he essentially fell off a cliff.  I think had Eli had a year like that in year 3, he probably would have been gone as well.

 

Overall though I agree with the sentiment that we should be patient with our QBs, however I'd only be patient if they are showing me SOMETHING.  Some kind of progress or development.  

Well my point was less about QB comparison and less about giving the QB time and more about the organization sticking with what THEY want to do, not the media and fans. It's not even saying that the team's plans are good etc, but if you have a plan then stick with it and don't let the public sway your thinking.

Zach Wilson isn't good. But Tim Boyle is far worse and that's saying something. If the team really wanted to win games (Saleh admitted he felt Zach gave them the best chance to win ever since AR8's injury) then Wilson would have started against Miami on Black Friday and started against Atlanta.

We would have probably won the Atlanta game and I prefer us losing and increasing our draft stock but the point remains that if the team's intention is to win games over listening to the public, then there was no reason at all Tim Boyle ever started a game.

[football guy]

1 minute ago, Biggs said:

I think he wants to run a team and get the support of the coaching staff and GM.  The Jets coaching staff and GM bailed on him when they signed Rodgers.  It would have been nice for him to sit this year but at this point he needs to move on. 

I don't think Joe Douglas bailed on him. They made it clear to Derek and Aaron that Zach was staying here, and the hope was that in addition to helping the team "win now", that those guys could also serve as a mentor for him. 

Aaron has been public about it: "I think I can be here for 2-3 years, then pass it back over to Zach for the next 15 years after that"... that was the hope and plan all along, which Douglas, Saleh, Rodgers, and Zach were all on board with. This is also why Rodgers says he feels personal guilt for getting injured because they wanted this year to be a year where Zach can grow in a mentorship role. 

[Jetsplayer21]

You definitely do not draft a kid number 2 overall if you think he needs a lot of work, and/or is a wild card.

[Biggs]

1 minute ago, football guy said:

I don't think Joe Douglas bailed on him. They made it clear to Derek and Aaron that Zach was staying here, and the hope was that in addition to helping the team "win now", that those guys could also serve as a mentor for him. 

Aaron has been public about it: "I think I can be here for 2-3 years, then pass it back over to Zach for the next 15 years after that"... that was the hope and plan all along, which Douglas, Saleh, Rodgers, and Zach were all on board with. This is also why Rodgers says he feels personal guilt for getting injured because they wanted this year to be a year where Zach can grow in a mentorship role. 

But he didn't mentor him.  Zach is now a starting NFL QB.  It's nuts to sit behind an ageing QB who's likely done after 2 years in a row with big time injuries.  Jordan Love has the Packers playing better than they did 2 years ago with Rodgers.  The ship has sailed on Rodgers.  Zach shouldn't sit behind anyone after this year unless he's a career backup.