Hassan Reddick Holding Out, Requests Trade

[Joe W. Namath]

4 hours ago, ARodJetsFan said:

Don't be surprised if Reddick never puts on a Jets uniform.

It's pretty apparent to me, this guy has zero interest in being a part of this team.

Good.  We dont need him.

we will finish 13-4 as long as rodgers stays healthy.  Missing reddick does not change that at all.  Hes a nice to have, not a need.

[Larz]

You guys already getting the break up playlist going ? 
 

[Claymation]

19 minutes ago, Larz said:

You guys already getting the break up playlist going ? 
 

I have “Everybody hurts sometime” on repeat

[Rich Thornburgh]

3 hours ago, Bronx said:

McDonald falling behind Clemmons says otherwise. 

Ole McDonald shat the farm 

[Ghost]

3 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Good.  We dont need him.

we will finish 13-4 as long as rodgers stays healthy.  Missing reddick does not change that at all.  Hes a nice to have, not a need.

You have to be a troll. There’s absolutely NOTHING good about this situation. 

[Joe W. Namath]

36 minutes ago, Ghost said:

You have to be a troll. There’s absolutely NOTHING good about this situation. 

Well educate us then.  If we were 13-4 w/ Reddick, what are we w/o him?

A 30 year old pass rusher is worth how many games?

 

[ARodJetsFan]

5 hours ago, bicketybam said:

Why isn't Douglas addressing the media?! 

Apparently, because he's savvy.

[Ghost]

9 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Well educate us then.  If we were 13-4 w/ Reddick, what are we w/o him?

A 30 year old pass rusher is worth how many games?

 

Your butt buddy had a pretty good off season and made some good decisions that will help this team. 
 

The Huff-Reddick situation was a joke. He ****ed up letting go of a pass rusher just entering his prime only to trade for a  an older yet better pass rusher only for him to holdout. Now Reddick is literally taking out his past decisions on the Jets, a team he has never played a snap for. 
 

Rodgers isn’t getting any younger. Our window is not next year, it is now and we need all the pieces we can get. Yes, we do need him even tho we shouldn’t even be in this place. 

[Bobby816]

2 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Your butt buddy had a pretty good off season and made some good decisions that will help this team. 
 

The Huff-Reddick situation was a joke. He ****ed up letting go of a pass rusher just entering his prime only to trade for a  an older yet better pass rusher only for him to holdout. Now Reddick is literally taking out his past decisions on the Jets, a team he has never played a snap for. 
 

Rodgers isn’t getting any younger. Our window is not next year, it is now and we need all the pieces we can get. Yes, we do need him even tho we shouldn’t even be in this place. 

Do you really think Reddick is going to miss time bc of this? Seriously?

Bc if he plays week 1 everything you said is a wash pretty much.

Some of you need to really look at what Reddick does compared to what Huff does. As well as realize that we have 2 1st rounders younger than what Huff is.

[The Crusher]

13 hours ago, Larz said:

You guys already getting the break up playlist going ? 
 

No, but I still got my “ Am I dying or just miss you?” Mixtape from the 8th grade. 

[The Crusher]

11 hours ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

Ole McDonald shat the farm 

Dude! That’s not ok.

 

 

Without  the E-I-E-I-O part. Please don’t do it again, thanks. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jethead]

I think the Burns trade caused Reddick to reconsider his value to the Jets. JD needs to find a way to be flexible and up the incentive ante. He will take their defense to another level.

Get 'er done JD!

[ARodJetsFan]

26 minutes ago, Jethead said:

I think the Burns trade caused Reddick to reconsider his value to the Jets. JD needs to find a way to be flexible and up the incentive ante. He will take their defense to another level.

Get 'er done JD!

I just wonder if there is any dialogue happening.

According to that article I posted, things may not heat up until the timeframe of the 2nd pre-season game. (The middle of the pre-season as they put it)

But hell, who knows.

[Raideraholic]

14 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Good.  We dont need him.

we will finish 13-4 as long as rodgers stays healthy.  Missing reddick does not change that at all.  Hes a nice to have, not a need.

Of course the Jets need him( why they traded for him) . He is the only proven pass rushing de that you know going to get double digit sacks.     What De the Jets have that has done it ( double digit sacks) , and good enough against the run too.  
 

Until those first round picks improve defending the run , and are more consistent getting to the Qb .   H Reddick knows the Jets need him.( why he’s playing hardball- the Jets are going for it all , and he’s important cog to have for this year.

[Dcat]

3 minutes ago, Raideraholic said:

Of course the Jets need him( why they traded for him) . He is the only proven pass rushing de that you know going to get double digit sacks.     What De the Jets have that has done it ( double digit sacks) , and good enough against the run too.  
 

Until those first round picks improve defending the run , and are more consistent getting to the Qb .   H Reddick knows the Jets need him.( why he’s playing hardball- the Jets are going for it all , and he’s important cog to have for this year.

Hard to believe anyone really believes a deal for this season won't get done this month.  He's not sitting out the year and he and the Jets will come to an agreement.  at least that's what I think based on history of such things.  Can't wait to see him on the field and yes, he will be a great asset.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, Ghost said:

Your butt buddy had a pretty good off season and made some good decisions that will help this team. 
 

The Huff-Reddick situation was a joke. He ****ed up letting go of a pass rusher just entering his prime only to trade for a  an older yet better pass rusher only for him to holdout. Now Reddick is literally taking out his past decisions on the Jets, a team he has never played a snap for. 
 

Rodgers isn’t getting any younger. Our window is not next year, it is now and we need all the pieces we can get. Yes, we do need him even tho we shouldn’t even be in this place. 

Heading into the offseason, with Huff earning the UFA status he wanted, the Jets had under contract: starter JFM (whom they'd held onto until after the Reddick trade went through); recent 1st round starter JJII; another 1st rounder in McDonald (who was drafted at least in part because Huff wouldn't sign an extension when he was a 2023 RFA that spring before they drafted another player at his position); and another young rotational DE in Clemons. So Huff wasn't going to still be here anyway, except for one more season by overpaying him via the franchise tag to be a situational pass rusher again, and after being forced to bet on himself for a 3rd straight season via the tag, more likely than not would be holding out himself if that was how he was retained. 

Aside from ignoring that reality of the Huff situation, and his obvious desire to go where he felt he'd be given the opportunity to full-time start, what makes you think Huff would be starting on the Jets right now over Clemons anyway? Even last year when Saleh/Ulbrich handed out a nominal starting nod, Huff had zero starts and Clemons - playing at DT-weight - had one start (the 30-0 Miami game; and before you put that score on Clemons getting the starting nod over Huff, Miami's first TD was a 1-yard drive after Zach fumbled, and the one big 60-yard TD pass came on a 1st down drive-starter with Huff not Clemons on the field). 

Huff had one 10-sack season -- by the skin of his teeth in a meaningless 17th game of a contract year, against a 12.9 ppg Pats offense's 3rd string LT for both his sacks, who was blindside blocking for no QB with no one to throw the ball to, with Beli still having Zippo drop back almost 40 times, and the second of his two sacks coming with under a minute left with a 2-TD lead in the snow. 

I liked Huff plenty - we all did - and would be happy to still have him on the team, but with reactions like this you'd think the end they lost was Myles Garrett.

Besides, the Jets' f-up at DE wasn't over a situational player in Huff. It was when Douglas (if not Douglas/Saleh/Ulbrich) went full-starter DE shopping in free agency in 2021 and decided they'd make their play for Carl Lawson instead of Trey Hendrickson.

[Rhg1084]

 

 

this dude is forfeiting a lot of $$$

[Jimmy 2 Times]

14 million is a lot of money, but not when you’re burning 50k a day.  
 

He’s hemorrhaging cash. 

[GangGreened]

I mean with the amount of money this guy is forfeiting, he seems pretty dug in.

[ARodJetsFan]

1 hour ago, GangGreened said:

I mean with the amount of money this guy is forfeiting, he seems pretty dug in.

I have no doubt that he's dug in, the guy has been an absolute ghost, since we traded for him.

That said, it really comes down to, how dug in JD & the front office is.

Reddick thinks he has leverage, because everyone knows, this an all-in season for the Jets.

Not to mention, it's fairly well-known that both Saleh & Douglas need to have a winning/play-off season this year, for their own job security.

It really comes down to, what kind of precedence, does the front office/management want to set for the rest of the team?

However the front office deals with Reddick, it will have some kind of effect, on how other Jets players looking for new contracts, try & deal with management.

The Jets really have to decide, what kind of message they want to send to the rest of the team.

If you want to let the players know, that the team won't be held hostage by a player, you tell Reddick to pound salt & let him sit out the season.

You made your bed, now sleep in it.

I'll be honest, if it was me, after the way this cat has acted, this is exactly how I would deal with him.

 

[Joe W. Namath]

2 minutes ago, ARodJetsFan said:

I have no doubt that he's dug in, the guy has been a ghost since we traded for him.

That said, it really comes down to, how dug in JD & the front office is.

Reddick thinks he has leverage, because everyone knows, this an all-in season for the Jets.

It really comes down to, what kind of precedence, does management want to set for the rest of the team?

Whatever happens with Reddick, is going to have some kind of effect, on how other Jets players looking for new contracts, try & deal with management.

Obviously, just as dug in as Reddick.

[ARodJetsFan]

51 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Obviously, just as dug in as Reddick.

For the moment at least.

The Jets really have to decide, what kind of message they want to send to the rest of the team.

If you want to let the players know, that the team won't be held hostage by a player, you tell Reddick to pound salt & let him sit out the season.

You made your bed, now sleep in it.

I'll be honest, if it was me, after the way this cat has acted, this is exactly how I would deal with him.

[bicketybam]

3 minutes ago, ARodJetsFan said:

For the moment at least.

The Jets really have to decide, what kind of message they want to send to the rest of the team.

If you want to let the players know, that the team won't be held hostage, you tell Reddick to pound salt & let him sit out the season.

You made your bed, now sleep in it.

I'll be honest, if it was me, after the way this cat has acted, this is exactly how I would deal with him.

The last thing Reddick wants to do is sit out the season.

[ARodJetsFan]

32 minutes ago, bicketybam said:

The last thing Reddick wants to do is sit out the season.

I wouldn't say that anything is outside the realm of possibility @bicketybam

All we can really do is speculate, nobody knows for certain, what this guy is thinking - except maybe his agent.

We can make educated guesses, assumptions & give our opinions, but at the end of the day, that's all they are.

[Rhg1084]

If Reddick sits out the season then he’s under contract with us again next season. He has to show up before week 10 I believe. And the Jets shouldn’t be in a rush to meet his demands, it’s not like we don’t have a 1st rd pick from last year waiting in the wings to take Reddick spot. Jets have depth at the position, this is not like it’s Rodgers, Sauce, Quinnen, or GW holding out. 

[ARodJetsFan]

Fines hit $1M as two-week holdout continues for Jets' Haason Reddick - ESPN

FLORHAM PARK, N.J. -- So let's take a look at how this played out.

1. Team acquires Pro Bowl player in a trade.

2. Player says he's thrilled to be on the team.

3. Player downplays his desire for a new contract, precisely the reason why his previous team decided to part with him.

"Whatever happens, I'm going to be happy," edge rusher Haason Reddick (the player) said in his introductory news conference with the New York Jets. "I'm going to give my all, no matter what. That's just who I am as a person."

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Four months later, player doesn't show up for training camp -- the rarest of holdouts.

It's highly unusual for a player to stay away from his new team after being acquired in a trade, but here we are. Reddick, due to make a non-guaranteed $14.25 million in base pay in the final year of his contract, has missed 15 days of training camp, accumulating $850,000 in mandatory fines (including minicamp) and approximately $300,000 in discretionary fines.

How did this happen? Neither side is commenting, but let's try to paint a picture.

What makes this so strange is the Jets had communicated with Reddick's camp before the trade was finalized, as they had received permission from the Philadelphia Eagles to do just that. In theory, the Jets and Reddick should've been on the same page regarding his contract situation, particularly since there were warning signs. It was known throughout the NFL that Reddick wanted a contract that would make him one of the highest-paid edge rushers.

The Jets should've executed a deal with Reddick before making the trade or, at the very least, established parameters, two agents not affiliated with Reddick told ESPN. One agent said he's "super surprised" they didn't have an agreement in place with Reddick. The other agent said, "You don't do a trade until you know what the parameters are."

They did offer to extend his contract at the time of the trade, ESPN previously reported. It's not clear how much they offered, but it likely came up well short of what he's seeking in guaranteed money. The Jets saw it as a good-faith gesture, but a former NFC general manager said Reddick might have interpreted it differently.

"They might have insulted him, too," he said. "Now he's an angry camper."

At this point, the Jets' likely preference is wait until during the season, or after, before revisiting a long-term extension. Reddick is thought to be seeking about $25 million per year; he might be targeting Danielle Hunter's deal with the Houston Texans -- two years, $49 million, including $48 million fully guaranteed.

Hunter and Reddick are close in age (both turn 30 during the season) and have the identical sack production over the last two seasons (27 apiece). One difference: Hunter was a free agent this offseason; Reddick wasn't.

Haason Reddick has skipped mandatory minicamp and training camp with the New York Jets up to this point. The Jets traded for Reddick in March. Jordon Kelly/Icon Sportswire

The Jets believed they were clear and direct with Reddick's camp. They were under the impression he'd go to training camp under his existing contract, according to a previous ESPN report. It's fair to wonder: Why would Reddick agree to the trade if he was troubled by the Jets' position on his contract. He didn't have a no-trade clause, but he certainly could've raised a red flag, dissuading the Jets from completing the swap.

Of course, the Jets could've signed Reddick to a fair-market extension at the time of the trade -- say, three years, $75 million. Teams sometimes do that when they trade for a star player.

This offseason, the Texans reworked wide receiver Stefon Diggs' contract and extended running back Joe Mixon -- acquired in separate trades. The Cleveland Browns traded for wide receiver Jerry Jeudy and, in the process, gave him a huge deal. The New York Giants and Tennessee Titans signed pass rusher Brian Burns and cornerback L'Jarius Sneed, respectively, to monster contracts after acquiring them in tag-and-trade scenarios. Both had the franchise tag.

"I'd pay him," the former GM said of Reddick, who ranks fourth in sacks (50.5) over the last four seasons. "I know he's 30, but he's a top-five edge rusher, and those are hard to find. I don't know why they didn't sign him. Why did you put yourself in this hand basket?"

Jets general manager Joe Douglas is conservative when signing older players to long-term deals. Then again, he hasn't had too many players -- old or young -- of Reddick's caliber. He didn't have to give up a ton of compensation to the Eagles -- a 2026 conditional third-round pick -- so it's possible he's prepared to live with a one-and-done situation. That could be the outcome, though it's quite likely Douglas will have to sweeten his 2024 compensation to end the stalemate.

"I understand why Joe doesn't want to pay him," a third agent said. "[Reddick] is a little long in the tooth, and he's already paying [Aaron] Rodgers, and he has all those young players coming up." Cornerback Sauce Gardner, wide receiver Garrett Wilson and running back Breece Hall will be eligible for contract extensions in 2025.

The Jets removed Reddick's base salary from their salary cap by placing him on the reserve/did not report list at the start of camp, increasing their cap space to almost $20 million, according to Over The Cap. If he reports under his existing contract, he immediately counts $15 million, leaving a few million in wiggle room.

Another factor could be at play, as there is a sense in the agent community that Jets owner Woody Johnson wants to keep everything short term.

Johnson voiced his displeasure with last season's 7-10 finish, essentially putting Douglas and coach Robert Saleh on notice. Perhaps not coincidentally, nearly every veteran acquisition in the offseason was signed to a one-year contract. Notably, Rodgers, 40, has only one year remaining in guaranteed money.

One agent theorized Johnson is reluctant to dole out a mega-contract, hedging his bets in case he decides to start over in 2025. The Jets could certainly counter that by pointing to their offer to extend Reddick's deal beyond 2024.

On Monday, Saleh was asked if, at the time of the trade, he could've imagined a two-week holdout unfolding.

"I guess it doesn't matter what I thought at the time," Saleh said. "But reality is he's not here."

Publicly, everything seemed so upbeat when Reddick was introduced to the media after the trade, when he expressed optimism about his future with the Jets, however long it lasted. It's worth noting the day of that news conference -- April Fool's Day.

[Barry McCockinner]

29 minutes ago, bicketybam said:

The last thing Reddick wants to do is sit out the season.

How do you know what he wants? Maybe he just assumes retire rather than risk life changing injury for what he considers not enough money?

[nycdan]

Some NFC team is going to see a starting DE go down this preseason.  A 2025 2nd round pick would not be the worst outcome of all of this.  I would love to see him playing in a Jets uni but I am not confident that's the way this story ends.

[batman10023]

2 hours ago, Ghost said:

Your butt buddy had a pretty good off season and made some good decisions that will help this team. 
 

The Huff-Reddick situation was a joke. He ****ed up letting go of a pass rusher just entering his prime only to trade for a  an older yet better pass rusher only for him to holdout. Now Reddick is literally taking out his past decisions on the Jets, a team he has never played a snap for. 
 

Rodgers isn’t getting any younger. Our window is not next year, it is now and we need all the pieces we can get. Yes, we do need him even tho we shouldn’t even be in this place. 

do you believe Huff would have signed here for the exact same $$ but no significant change in responsibilities?

[nycdan]

2 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

How do you know what he wants? Maybe he just assumes retire rather than risk life changing injury for what he considers not enough money?

He's earned $51M in his career so far.  He could double that in just two more seasons if he gets a top-of-market contract.  I have no idea what he wants, but there is a strong argument that he may want to play another few years.

[#27TheDominator]

6 minutes ago, ARodJetsFan said:

Fines hit $1M as two-week holdout continues for Jets' Haason Reddick - ESPN

FLORHAM PARK, N.J. -- So let's take a look at how this played out.

1. Team acquires Pro Bowl player in a trade.

2. Player says he's thrilled to be on the team.

3. Player downplays his desire for a new contract, precisely the reason why his previous team decided to part with him.

"Whatever happens, I'm going to be happy," edge rusher Haason Reddick (the player) said in his introductory news conference with the New York Jets. "I'm going to give my all, no matter what. That's just who I am as a person."

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Four months later, player doesn't show up for training camp -- the rarest of holdouts.

It's highly unusual for a player to stay away from his new team after being acquired in a trade, but here we are. Reddick, due to make a non-guaranteed $14.25 million in base pay in the final year of his contract, has missed 15 days of training camp, accumulating $850,000 in mandatory fines (including minicamp) and approximately $300,000 in discretionary fines.

How did this happen? Neither side is commenting, but let's try to paint a picture.

What makes this so strange is the Jets had communicated with Reddick's camp before the trade was finalized, as they had received permission from the Philadelphia Eagles to do just that. In theory, the Jets and Reddick should've been on the same page regarding his contract situation, particularly since there were warning signs. It was known throughout the NFL that Reddick wanted a contract that would make him one of the highest-paid edge rushers.

The Jets should've executed a deal with Reddick before making the trade or, at the very least, established parameters, two agents not affiliated with Reddick told ESPN. One agent said he's "super surprised" they didn't have an agreement in place with Reddick. The other agent said, "You don't do a trade until you know what the parameters are."

They did offer to extend his contract at the time of the trade, ESPN previously reported. It's not clear how much they offered, but it likely came up well short of what he's seeking in guaranteed money. The Jets saw it as a good-faith gesture, but a former NFC general manager said Reddick might have interpreted it differently.

"They might have insulted him, too," he said. "Now he's an angry camper."

At this point, the Jets' likely preference is wait until during the season, or after, before revisiting a long-term extension. Reddick is thought to be seeking about $25 million per year; he might be targeting Danielle Hunter's deal with the Houston Texans -- two years, $49 million, including $48 million fully guaranteed.

Hunter and Reddick are close in age (both turn 30 during the season) and have the identical sack production over the last two seasons (27 apiece). One difference: Hunter was a free agent this offseason; Reddick wasn't.

Haason Reddick has skipped mandatory minicamp and training camp with the New York Jets up to this point. The Jets traded for Reddick in March. Jordon Kelly/Icon Sportswire

The Jets believed they were clear and direct with Reddick's camp. They were under the impression he'd go to training camp under his existing contract, according to a previous ESPN report. It's fair to wonder: Why would Reddick agree to the trade if he was troubled by the Jets' position on his contract. He didn't have a no-trade clause, but he certainly could've raised a red flag, dissuading the Jets from completing the swap.

Of course, the Jets could've signed Reddick to a fair-market extension at the time of the trade -- say, three years, $75 million. Teams sometimes do that when they trade for a star player.

This offseason, the Texans reworked wide receiver Stefon Diggs' contract and extended running back Joe Mixon -- acquired in separate trades. The Cleveland Browns traded for wide receiver Jerry Jeudy and, in the process, gave him a huge deal. The New York Giants and Tennessee Titans signed pass rusher Brian Burns and cornerback L'Jarius Sneed, respectively, to monster contracts after acquiring them in tag-and-trade scenarios. Both had the franchise tag.

"I'd pay him," the former GM said of Reddick, who ranks fourth in sacks (50.5) over the last four seasons. "I know he's 30, but he's a top-five edge rusher, and those are hard to find. I don't know why they didn't sign him. Why did you put yourself in this hand basket?"

Jets general manager Joe Douglas is conservative when signing older players to long-term deals. Then again, he hasn't had too many players -- old or young -- of Reddick's caliber. He didn't have to give up a ton of compensation to the Eagles -- a 2026 conditional third-round pick -- so it's possible he's prepared to live with a one-and-done situation. That could be the outcome, though it's quite likely Douglas will have to sweeten his 2024 compensation to end the stalemate.

"I understand why Joe doesn't want to pay him," a third agent said. "[Reddick] is a little long in the tooth, and he's already paying [Aaron] Rodgers, and he has all those young players coming up." Cornerback Sauce Gardner, wide receiver Garrett Wilson and running back Breece Hall will be eligible for contract extensions in 2025.

The Jets removed Reddick's base salary from their salary cap by placing him on the reserve/did not report list at the start of camp, increasing their cap space to almost $20 million, according to Over The Cap. If he reports under his existing contract, he immediately counts $15 million, leaving a few million in wiggle room.

Another factor could be at play, as there is a sense in the agent community that Jets owner Woody Johnson wants to keep everything short term.

Johnson voiced his displeasure with last season's 7-10 finish, essentially putting Douglas and coach Robert Saleh on notice. Perhaps not coincidentally, nearly every veteran acquisition in the offseason was signed to a one-year contract. Notably, Rodgers, 40, has only one year remaining in guaranteed money.

One agent theorized Johnson is reluctant to dole out a mega-contract, hedging his bets in case he decides to start over in 2025. The Jets could certainly counter that by pointing to their offer to extend Reddick's deal beyond 2024.

On Monday, Saleh was asked if, at the time of the trade, he could've imagined a two-week holdout unfolding.

"I guess it doesn't matter what I thought at the time," Saleh said. "But reality is he's not here."

Publicly, everything seemed so upbeat when Reddick was introduced to the media after the trade, when he expressed optimism about his future with the Jets, however long it lasted. It's worth noting the day of that news conference -- April Fool's Day.

Everybody will read this and think stupid Jets.  Now read it again and pay attention to all these teams signing the guys traded for to new contracts.  How many use the phrase "monster deals?"  I don't want to sign these guys to a monster deal.  **** 'em.  Reddick will come in and play.  The Jets probably had to pull the trigger and had to move JFM to even have the money to get him sorted.  Even if they ride with neither they are down a  2026 3rd vs a 2026 6th they got for JFM.  I repeat what I have been saying all along.  Big ******* deal.  Yes, they look bad on this count, but it's the Jets.  The press was going to find something, better they whine about this than get under Rodgers skin.

[Rich Thornburgh]

1 hour ago, Rhg1084 said:

 

 

this dude is forfeiting a lot of $$$

And there is your leverage.  Offer him a full refund if he plays week 1

[#27TheDominator]

5 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

How do you know what he wants? Maybe he just assumes retire rather than risk life changing injury for what he considers not enough money?

It was worth it for $14M in 2023, but not 2024?  

[Rich Thornburgh]

6 minutes ago, batman10023 said:

do you believe Huff would have signed here for the exact same $$ but no significant change in responsibilities?

Yes

[Barry McCockinner]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

It was worth it for $14M in 2023, but not 2024?  

I have no idea what the guy is thinking or wants I just find it silly for someone to claim they do know.

If I had $14 million I wouldn't feel the need to risk shortening my life for another $14 million, but that's just me. The desire to play/win is a different factor but just purely in financial terms that's one way of thinking about it.