Oline. It's where you start a rebuild

[sirlancemehlot]

Watching this Cowboys line is an eye opener.  They make everyone better.  Holes for the run game, time for the QB to throw.  Defense forced to blitz to get pressure.  Beating up defenses to take over the 4th quarter and dominating time of possession when needed.  Unless this team brings in some stud OL (like we had during our two AFC championship game seasons) the Jets will simply continue to spin their wheels.  

[AFJF]

2 minutes ago, sirlancemehlot said:

Watching this Cowboys line is an eye opener.  They make everyone better.  Holes for the run game, time for the QB to throw.  Defense forced to blitz to get pressure.  Beating up defenses to take over the 4th quarter and dominating time of possession when needed.  Unless this team brings in some stud OL (like we had during our two AFC championship game seasons) the Jets will simply continue to spin their wheels.  

Watching this game giving me flashbacks to a time when the Jets won big games despite having Mark Sanchez at QB because they could just push teams around up front.  Hopefully Shell's strong showing last night means one less need on the O-line and they can try to upgrade at C and LT.

[sirlancemehlot]

We need two tackles and a solid project center just be decent imo

[CrazyCarl40]

6 hours ago, AFJF said:

Watching this game giving me flashbacks to a time when the Jets won big games despite having Mark Sanchez at QB because they could just push teams around up front.  Hopefully Shell's strong showing last night means one less need on the O-line and they can try to upgrade at C and LT.

They're going to need a RG too. Winters is going to get overpaid by someone else. RT was always upgradeable. Ijalana and Qvale were both fine at RT and much better than Breno. 

[Tinstar]

Haven't you guys heard  .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Todd Bowles can't coach .

 

 

 

 

[papz187]

I agree. It was the positional group where Mangini and Tannenbaum started back in 2006 by taking Brick and Mangold in the first round, laying the foundation for years to come.

Look back at the dynasties of Dallas in the 90s and New England in the 2000s, they were anchored by dominant line play. Ofcourse you need a QB and playmakers to win consistently, but without an OLine even someone like Brady would be neutralized.

If you want your young QB to develop into a franchise player you need to give him time to make plays and progress, simple as that.

Sent from my SM-N915T using Tapatalk

[NoBowles]

The pats and Giants have awful Olines, but they choke hold and tackle the opposing Dline on virtually every play, and it's almost never called. In almost every game, both of their opponents get more holding calls gen they do, despite egregious holding.

I hate to say it, but in today's NFL, the only thing that really matters is having marketable superstars that the NFL wants to see on highlight reals and be able to put in commercials. 

Find a superstar at the QB or WR position and our fortunes would change almost overnight.

 

[shawn306]

1 hour ago, Tinstar said:

Haven't you guys heard  .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Todd Bowles can't coach .

 

 

 

 

Yaeh and all we need is a franchise QB. Screw the rest

[RoadFan]

Some of us have been talking about this for months already...

[Jetster]

1 hour ago, Tinstar said:

Haven't you guys heard  .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Todd Bowles can't coach .

 

 

 

 

Not what I've heard, what I've seen with my own eyes. Bowles doesn't have an elite roster but he's a terrible decision make during the game. Wastes time outs, too slow to make decisions, poor talent evaluator, punts down 17 on 4th & 4 with 5 minutes left, sits on the ball before the half with over 1 minute left & he's not getting the ball to start the half, has veterans disrespecting him by not showing to meeting or giving max effort on the field.

Hes a defensive coach with the worst defense in football. Other than that he's really turning this team around. I've seen a steady improvement each week.

[FidelioJet]

9 hours ago, sirlancemehlot said:

We need two tackles and a solid project center just be decent imo

Yup....Looks like we have two guards - but we need to take at least two tackles in this draft, sign one in FA and keep Mangold another year (take an early center next year)

It's not that overwhelming of a  rebuild - sure we have to draft properly but we can get there in a couple of years...

[JetPotato]

47 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

The pats and Giants have awful Olines, but they choke hold and tackle the opposing Dline on virtually every play, and it's almost never called. In almost every game, both of their opponents get more holding calls gen they do, despite egregious holding.

I hate to say it, but in today's NFL, the only thing that really matters is having marketable superstars that the NFL wants to see on highlight reals and be able to put in commercials. 

Find a superstar at the QB or WR position and our fortunes would change almost overnight.

 

The Giants aren't winning because of their offense, and there's no way we can count on getting Pats treatment by the league along the o-line because we don't have a marketable QB back there.

[ZachEY]

10 hours ago, sirlancemehlot said:

Watching this Cowboys line is an eye opener.  They make everyone better.  Holes for the run game, time for the QB to throw.  Defense forced to blitz to get pressure.  Beating up defenses to take over the 4th quarter and dominating time of possession when needed.  Unless this team brings in some stud OL (like we had during our two AFC championship game seasons) the Jets will simply continue to spin their wheels.  

Agreed.  But, that does not mean we need to overdraft or overspend at the position.  It just seems like this team either ignores the offensive line, or it drafts them at the top of the draft (Brick/Mangold) and then returns to ignoring them.  Then is forced to overpay for aging guys.  There's a balance that needs to be found.  We haven't hit a second round pick since David Harris, why not invest in the line there?

[NoBowles]

51 minutes ago, JetPotato said:

The Giants aren't winning because of their offense, and there's no way we can count on getting Pats treatment by the league along the o-line because we don't have a marketable QB back there.

The Giants Oline and secondary gets away with absolute murder, its helping them win a lot.

[Ex-Rex]

1 hour ago, NoBowles said:

The pats and Giants have awful Olines, but they choke hold and tackle the opposing Dline on virtually every play, and it's almost never called. In almost every game, both of their opponents get more holding calls gen they do, despite egregious holding.

The Pats have been allowed to hold since Brady came into the picture. What you said about marketable players is spot on brother. This league is all about marketing, teams merchandise, players, you name it. I am beginning to hate what the NFL is becoming under Roger Goodell. The officials favor certain teams and penalize the less marketable ones. Guess where that leaves the Jets.

[LionelRichie]

10 hours ago, sirlancemehlot said:

Watching this Cowboys line is an eye opener.  They make everyone better.  Holes for the run game, time for the QB to throw.  Defense forced to blitz to get pressure.  Beating up defenses to take over the 4th quarter and dominating time of possession when needed.  Unless this team brings in some stud OL (like we had during our two AFC championship game seasons) the Jets will simply continue to spin their wheels.  

When the Jets are good their OL is good.   But it starts with proper player evaluation and drafting - this is where the Jets have struggled the most over the past 6 years.   

You can't just randomly draft OL and expect the team to turnaround - see Ducasse, Valdimiir or look at the Rams.   It seems like they keep using high picks on OL and their line perpetually sucks.

The OL needs an upgrade but the real issue is and has been the years worth of wasted drafts.     

 

[NoBowles]

2 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

The Pats have been allowed to hold since Brady came into the picture. What you said about marketable players is spot on brother. This league is all about marketing, teams merchandise, players, you name it. I am beginning to hate what the NFL is becoming under Roger Goodell. The officials favor certain teams and penalize the less marketable ones. Guess where that leaves the Jets.

Yup, the NFL has turned into the ultimate greed machine, and its getting worse and worse every year. I refuse to get my kids into the NFL. 

[August]

2 hours ago, NoBowles said:

The pats and Giants have awful Olines, but they choke hold and tackle the opposing Dline on virtually every play, and it's almost never called. In almost every game, both of their opponents get more holding calls gen they do, despite egregious holding.

I hate to say it, but in today's NFL, the only thing that really matters is having marketable superstars that the NFL wants to see on highlight reals and be able to put in commercials. 

Find a superstar at the QB or WR position and our fortunes would change almost overnight.

 

Then why do teams with franchise quarterbacks struggle? It's about building a talented team. Not just get the QB and all your problems are solved. 

[nicg4360]

11 minutes ago, August said:

Then why do teams with franchise quarterbacks struggle? It's about building a talented team. Not just get the QB and all your problems are solved. 

Very true.  Just an example Philip Rivers is the definition of franchise quarterback yet the Chargers rarely have had success, only when they have had a top flight offensive line did they have great seasons. 

[JiFtheOracle]

I've always been a, build inside out type of guy.  Still need a QB.

[NoBowles]

16 minutes ago, August said:

Then why do teams with franchise quarterbacks struggle? It's about building a talented team. Not just get the QB and all your problems are solved. 

Its not flat out WWE, if the rest of the team is awful, there is only so much that they can do

[ASH1962]

11 hours ago, sirlancemehlot said:

Watching this Cowboys line is an eye opener.  They make everyone better.  Holes for the run game, time for the QB to throw.  Defense forced to blitz to get pressure.  Beating up defenses to take over the 4th quarter and dominating time of possession when needed.  Unless this team brings in some stud OL (like we had during our two AFC championship game seasons) the Jets will simply continue to spin their wheels.  

Was thinking the very same thing, with a strong OL, anyone can play QB and succeed with proper coaching and scheming.

[August]

11 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

Its not flat out WWE, if the rest of the team is awful, there is only so much that they can do

Exactly that's why I'd build a young team and let them all grow and develop together with little to no expectations or pressure and for the fans to be patient during growing pains. We can't get too high or low on a player but don't be too homerish or negative either. I've seen that for Petty so far. 

[NoBowles]

17 minutes ago, JiF said:

I've always been a, build inside out type of guy.  Still need a QB.

This was clearly Mangini's MO, and Rex greatly benefited from it.

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

This was clearly Mangini's MO, and Rex greatly benefited from it.

I call bullsh*t

Mangini's MO was to treat the players like they were children and get rid of anybody that wasn't a rah-rah.  Mangold was drafted so they could cut the clubhouse lawyer - Kevin Mawae.  They probably would have been better served keeping Mawae around another year.  IIRC, he saved a measly $1M against the cap.  Even if they cut him they could have rolled with Jonathan Goodwin, who has not been quite as good as Mangold, but has been an excellent center for many years on teams that made it further than the Jets and did it on offense.  The Jets first moves under Mangini included dumping Mawae and Fabini.  They also sought to dump Kendall and did the following year, rolling with studs like Adrien Clarke and throwing away a season.  Knowing he was going to dump Kendall, (assuming we "credit" Mangini) he elected to draft small school tackle Jacob Bender, following it up with Nate Garner the following year.  My hero!  Oh, how he valued the offensive line!  

 

[NoBowles]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

I call bullsh*t

Mangini's MO was to treat the players like they were children and get rid of anybody that wasn't a rah-rah.  Mangold was drafted so they could cut the clubhouse lawyer - Kevin Mawae.  They probably would have been better served keeping Mawae around another year.  IIRC, he saved a measly $1M against the cap.  Even if they cut him they could have rolled with Jonathan Goodwin, who has not been quite as good as Mangold, but has been an excellent center for many years on teams that made it further than the Jets and did it on offense.  The Jets first moves under Mangini included dumping Mawae and Fabini.  They also sought to dump Kendall and did the following year, rolling with studs like Adrien Clarke and throwing away a season.  Knowing he was going to dump Kendall, (assuming we "credit" Mangini) he elected to draft small school tackle Jacob Bender, following it up with Nate Garner the following year.  My hero!  Oh, how he valued the offensive line!  

 

You can call whatever you want, his first two draft picks were a cornerstone LT and Center. 

[#27TheDominator]

3 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

You can call whatever you want, his first two draft picks were a cornerstone LT and Center. 

Yeah, I call it bullsh*t because it is.  1.  Mangini wasn't the GM.  His "pick" in 2006 was the boar hunter.  2. His first move was cutting a Hall of Fame center and a starting tackle.  

REMINDER:  NO MATTER WHAT YOU PEOPLE THINK, MANGINI WAS NOT THE ******* GM! HOW WAS HIS TALENT EVALUATION IN CLEVELAND? 

[Beerfish]

In principle I agree with build the oline thought but there is no 'blue print' to success in this league other than having a great QB.  As I said before, Dallas with their all world oline last year won a whopping 4 games because they had no QB and an iffy defense.

[NoBowles]

14 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Yeah, I call it bullsh*t because it is.  1.  Mangini wasn't the GM.  His "pick" in 2006 was the boar hunter.  2. His first move was cutting a Hall of Fame center and a starting tackle.  

REMINDER:  NO MATTER WHAT YOU PEOPLE THINK, MANGINI WAS NOT THE ******* GM! HOW WAS HIS TALENT EVALUATION IN CLEVELAND? 

Riddle me this batman, why were the drafts so different under Mangini and Rex if Tammy was the guy making the picks??

[PCP63]

The real problem many have mentioned is Woody. If only Woody hadn't screwed over the best coach we've had in decades. Mangini.

[#27TheDominator]

13 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

Riddle me this batman, why were the drafts so different under Mangini and Rex if Tammy was the guy making the picks??

They weren't.  It was  a good team, so they went for the sharpshooter approach trading up and limiting picks rather than the shotgun approach taken their first year.  Riddle me this batman what changes on the line were so shocking?  The changes on the o-line were reactionary - they were horrible in 2007 with a hole at RG, so they signed Faneca.  They needed an RT, so they signed a big money bust at G, that was previously a high dollar center in Woody.  I have never heard anybody claim that Mangini had anything to do with scouting Woody at RT.  They drafted Mangold because Mangini wanted to dump the clubhouse lawyer Mawae.  They needed a LT because they cut injury risk Fabini and Adrian Jones was pretty bad. They drafted Slauson under Rex. IMO, the biggest difference between Rex and Mangini was a willingness to take on character concerns.  Brick and Mangold were can't miss players where they were picked.  It didn't take some kind of genius scouting or profound dedication to the offensive line to draft them.  The team had put as much or more into the offensive line before Mangini came along.

[Hael]

Statistically we are ahead of the Cheaters and Giants in oline play, and were ranked (before last game) 8th by PFF.  The Cheaters were ~12th or something like that.

When Clady and Mangold were healthy, we had pretty good production from that unit.  Of course its not Dallas good but then the Cowboys have invested at least three high first round picks on the unit, as well as many failed 2nd/3rd round picks, free agent signings and so forth.

[#27TheDominator]

To properly answer the question:  1. The team was better, so they didn't need to add 7 new starters. 2.  The draft strategy changed before Rex came along - 4 picks in 2007, 6 in 2008 despite getting the Vilma pick - BTW, if you credit Mangini with these drafts the picks he traded in 2008 netted Jordy Nelson and Gary Barnidge among others. 3.  Tannenbaum became enamored with the trade up because it worked so well in 2007 - getting Revis and Harris - so he continued to do it, even when it didn't prove as effective.  I think he doubled down on the strategy because it initially appeared to work in 2009 with Sanchez, Greene  and Slauson all seeming like excellent picks early on.  The trades for Shepherd, Jenkins, Edwards and Holmes also appeared smart initially. None of this has anything to do with Mangini who flopped in Cleveland leaving talentless muck and his time in San Francisco included a huge exodus of talent - mostly through retirement with little or no replacements.

[ScarletKnight89]

We absolutely have to address the O-Line starting this off season. And it starts with draft some youth to infuse in the O-Line.

The goal isn't to have a decent O-Line. It's to have a great O-Line. You win games upfront. You don't see a lot of teams in this league with great O-Lines who are bad.

[NoBowles]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

They weren't.  It was  a good team, so they went for the sharpshooter approach trading up and limiting picks rather than the shotgun approach taken their first year.  Riddle me this batman what changes on the line were so shocking?  The changes on the o-line were reactionary - they were horrible in 2007 with a hole at RG, so they signed Faneca.  They needed an RT, so they signed a big money bust at G, that was previously a high dollar center in Woody.  I have never heard anybody claim that Mangini had anything to do with scouting Woody at RT.  They drafted Mangold because Mangini wanted to dump the clubhouse lawyer Mawae.  They needed a LT because they cut injury risk Fabini and Adrian Jones was pretty bad. They drafted Slauson under Rex. IMO, the biggest difference between Rex and Mangini was a willingness to take on character concerns.  Brick and Mangold were can't miss players where they were picked.  It didn't take some kind of genius scouting or profound dedication to the offensive line to draft them.  The team had put as much or more into the offensive line before Mangini came along.

Man, you Rex fans just never let up.....