Reggie McKenzie (MERGED)

[phill1c]

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I wish MacCagnan had no fallen into the we can win and rebuild trap because he wasted resources this past off season, he should have about 2 more picks for this draft if he had not been trying to win now.

I really don't see how his so-called "win now" approach cost the Jets anything. The resources were wasted...by the head coach. 2 more picks? where, which picks, what would it really have mattered in the long game? probably nothing significant.

In fact, here the Jets are, with picks and with a good position to take them. It was ugly getting there, but we're here.

[JiFtheOracle]

17 minutes ago, bostonmajet said:

Thats were we are getting confused. Petty is basically a rookie, but clearly not a rookie. Manning sucked his first year, but he was a rookie, so it was okay. But because Petty isn't a rookie if he sucks - he just sucks, right?

.... I am hoping my sarcasm is coming through here ....

People on this site are advocating for a full re-build. I get it. But, when we play a crappy game with a lot of rookies running around doing doping things, we crap all over the GM. When a guy playing in his 3rd start is under throwing his long balls (as opposed to over throwing them before) they have decided he isn't the guy.

Hey, I get it. Mac may not be the GM we need. The odds are that Petty isn't the guy. But, if you are unhappy with the Jets looking like a HS team, then you are in for a rude awakening next year, after the vet purge and 3-4 more rookies playing a prominent role. The O-Line and the Secondary need to be completely rebuilt. It is going to be painful even with some FAs hired to fill the gaps.

Drafting a QB in the first, second, or third isn't going to make a big difference. Signing Glennon won't make a big difference. We have a bad-team and it is going to take a while to turn it into a good one.

I'm not sure that Manning is the best example.  He was the first overall pick, not a 4th rounder...but I get your point.  And FWIW - I was 100% willing to sacrifice this season to give Geno, Petty and Hack reps.  Instead, we wasted it on Fitz and now the Jets are in the exact predicament many of us predicted - Fitz sucked and now you know nothing about your young QB's.

 

[Beerfish]

22 minutes ago, phill1c said:

I really don't see how his so-called "win now" approach cost the Jets anything. The resources were wasted...by the head coach. 2 more picks? where, which picks, what would it really have mattered in the long game? probably nothing significant.

In fact, here the Jets are, with picks and with a good position to take them. It was ugly getting there, but we're here.

If you in fact think that two more draft picks in a year when you have a GM who's calling card is scouting and player eval then you are indeed correct in your assessment.

[phill1c]

3 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

If you in fact think that two more draft picks in a year when you have a GM who's calling card is scouting and player eval then you are indeed correct in your assessment.

Which two picks? two first rounders? sure. Two 7th rounders?

Or is this the extent of your analysis? You have the opportunity to explain in detail. Please take it.

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

They sucked with a Rookie QB.  That's a first.

You're right.  They didn't really suck in 2014 and 2009 with rookie QBs.  I think the only time they had a losing record with a rookie QB playing most of the games was Namath in 1965 and he made the pro bowl.

[bostonmajet]

23 minutes ago, JiF said:

I'm not sure that Manning is the best example.  He was the first overall pick, not a 4th rounder...but I get your point.  And FWIW - I was 100% willing to sacrifice this season to give Geno, Petty and Hack reps.  Instead, we wasted it on Fitz and now the Jets are in the exact predicament many of us predicted - Fitz sucked and now you know nothing about your young QB's.

 

Yeah; I was okay with the 'best chance' to win BS, but once we crapped the bed, we should have moved on... I know they didn't want the vets, to quit, but they basically did anyway. They played Fitz at least 2 games too long IMO. I just hope it was because Petty was hurt in pre-season, but the BYE would have been a good time to make the switch.

[JiFtheOracle]

4 minutes ago, bostonmajet said:

Yeah; I was okay with the 'best chance' to win BS, but once we crapped the bed, we should have moved on... I know they didn't want the vets, to quit, but they basically did anyway. They played Fitz at least 2 games too long IMO. I just hope it was because Petty was hurt in pre-season, but the BYE would have been a good time to make the switch.

If you're making decisions about the future of the organization based on the feelings of players who arent going to be here to see that future, then you might as well not even try.

[bostonmajet]

Just now, JiF said:

If you're making decisions about the future of the organization based on the feelings of players who arent going to be here to see that future, then you might as well not even try.

Yeah, I understand, once they went with Petty, they were basically saying they are giving up on the year. If the CS can give up, so can the vets (particularly ones that are going to retire or move on). They don't want to end their careers (or retire in pain) over games that the CS doesn't care about winning. I get it.

But, I don't care. It isn't like they were kicking butt (except Leo) anyway. Let all of the kids play and let them sink or swim.

[NoBowles]

2 hours ago, JiF said:

Amazing what a franchise QB can do for a team...

Yup, shame Idzik passed on a few of them because he had Geno.....

[Larz]

so its still our fault ?

[Mogglez]

3 hours ago, JiF said:

Well, he showed that he understood the draft and positoinal value...so I get why he got 3 years to find one.  The dude has landed at least 3 impact players in every draft he's had. 

So far, our fearless GM got lucky with the only impact player he's drafted.   Yay!!!!

He spent a 2nd rounder on a QB 2 years after drafting one with a 4th round pick (who is already out of the league).  So far we have only spent a 2nd and a 4th round pick on QBs.  It's also a lot easier to nab impact players, who can contribute right away, when the team you're in charge of sucks so badly that you pick top 5 every single year until you hit gold on a franchise QB...except, looking back at his drafts prior to Carr, that wasn't the case with McKenzie and your "he showed that understood the draft and positional value...so I get why he got 3 years to find one" and "The dude has landed at least 3 impact players in every draft he's had" statements are just flat-out wrong.  Also it was really cute to ignore the players like Mauldin, Jordan Jenkins, Deon Simon, Robby Anderson, Lachlan Edwards who have shown that they belong in this league.  Lee, whether you like him or not, since we've argued that before, has played well too and looks like he will get better with experience.

Cherry picked arguments. Yay!!!!

[Mogglez]

Quite frankly, until McKenzie landed Mack and Carr, his drafts f*cking sucked.  

Find a QB, and the criticism gets a lot lighter.

[dbatesman]

20 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

players like Mauldin, Jordan Jenkins, Deon Simon, Robby Anderson, Lachlan Edwards who have shown that they belong in this league. 

wat

[Mogglez]

26 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

wat

3rd round, 3rd round, 7th round, UDFA, 7th round.  That's where these guys were selected.

Mauldin - Decent situational pass rusher and good against run. 2nd year player with room to grow.  Probably isn't the next Demarcus Ware, but will be a good rotational guy to have. Everyone here wanted Eli Harold instead and he hasn't done sh*t.

Jenkins - So far he looks like a good, smart, run stuffing LB who will soundly play the Bryan Thomas role of our defense, opposite of a (hopefully) future pass rushing LBer.  Has shown good instincts in his rookie year.

Simon - Has been playing in place of McLendon lately and looks like he can fill that space left by Damon Harrison.  Still has to grow but looks pretty promising right now.  Especially for a 7th rounder.

Anderson - I don't know how anyone could complain about this one at this point.

Edwards - Has been a pretty good punter.  Best we've had since 2010 at least.

Are any of those guys "stars" yet?  No.  Will all of them make themselves into superstars?  Probably not. That doesn't mean they were worthless picks.  I know you don't like Macc, but that's not a bad track record for 2 3rd round picks and 3 7th round/UDFAs.  Especially if you compare it to McKenzie's drafts prior to Carr, which was the argument.  You can also throw in getting Brandon Marshall for a 5th in 2015.

[Mecca]

I'll tell you what,

 

Idzik was the worst GM in sports. Worse than Isiah Thomas with the Knicks. 

 

Dee Milliner

Calvin Pryor

Geno Smith

Jace Amaro

Shaq Evans

Jalen Saunders

 

holy sh*t that man was awful.

[jeremy2020]

1 hour ago, Larz said:

so its still our fault ?

Obviously, the fans have more culpability than the Owner, GM, and Coach

[CanadaSteve]

10 hours ago, JiF said:

Well, he showed that he understood the draft and positoinal value...so I get why he got 3 years to find one.  The dude has landed at least 3 impact players in every draft he's had. 

So far, our fearless GM got lucky with the only impact player he's drafted.   Yay!!!!

No he has not!  There isn't anyone on the team from his first draft in 2012, and only a handful left from his 2013 draft where he had 10 picks. 

No need to point out all the fans on this site who would have had him fired by then.  I mean, BOTH his #1's from 2012-2013 drafts are gone!  Yet, they kept him on.  And what did he do?  In 2014 and 15, those two drafts alone netted him about 6 starters (including a franchise QB), and about 4 solid back-ups.  This last draft netted 2 starters, 2 back-ups and another QB prospect.

AMAZING what happens when you give someone more than 2 years before you fire them!

Like it or not, Mac needs to be able to conduct 4 drafts to get an honest assessment.  

[CanadaSteve]

9 hours ago, bostonmajet said:

Thats were we are getting confused. Petty is basically a rookie, but clearly not a rookie. Manning sucked his first year, but he was a rookie, so it was okay. But because Petty isn't a rookie if he sucks - he just sucks, right?

.... I am hoping my sarcasm is coming through here ....

People on this site are advocating for a full re-build. I get it. But, when we play a crappy game with a lot of rookies running around doing doping things, we crap all over the GM. When a guy playing in his 3rd start is under throwing his long balls (as opposed to over throwing them before) they have decided he isn't the guy.

Hey, I get it. Mac may not be the GM we need. The odds are that Petty isn't the guy. But, if you are unhappy with the Jets looking like a HS team, then you are in for a rude awakening next year, after the vet purge and 3-4 more rookies playing a prominent role. The O-Line and the Secondary need to be completely rebuilt. It is going to be painful even with some FAs hired to fill the gaps.

Drafting a QB in the first, second, or third isn't going to make a big difference. Signing Glennon won't make a big difference. We have a bad-team and it is going to take a while to turn it into a good one.

Which is what a rebuild is EXACTLY to do.

Again, last year was the worst thing that happened....it delayed the rebuild at LEAST a year, by setting false hope and having us draft much later in each of the rounds we have had.  Oakland did well by drafting high in each round for multiple years, and eventually found their groove in drafting.

The key for them now is to draft solid people who can play solid back up roles with a few more additional starters.  Otherwise, in five more years.....

[RutgersJetFan]

1 hour ago, CanadaSteve said:

No he has not!  There isn't anyone on the team from his first draft in 2012, and only a handful left from his 2013 draft where he had 10 picks. 

No need to point out all the fans on this site who would have had him fired by then.  I mean, BOTH his #1's from 2012-2013 drafts are gone!  Yet, they kept him on.  And what did he do?  In 2014 and 15, those two drafts alone netted him about 6 starters (including a franchise QB), and about 4 solid back-ups.  This last draft netted 2 starters, 2 back-ups and another QB prospect.

AMAZING what happens when you give someone more than 2 years before you fire them!

Like it or not, Mac needs to be able to conduct 4 drafts to get an honest assessment.  

Seems to have been the right move with Idzik.

[shawn306]

17 hours ago, JiF said:

Amazing what a franchise QB can do for a team...

Yup. I just wonder how this fanbase and the media would react if we had someone like Carr and he started his career 0-10 like he did is 2014 ?

[ScarletKnight89]

19 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

McKenzie was named the Oakland GM in 2012.

Went 4-12, 4-12, 3-13, 7-9 and now 11-3.

Carr was drafted in the 3-13 year. So not all the progress the Raiders can point to that alone.

I think he should be NFL executive of the year and it goes to show what patience can do. 

This is a HUGE draft for Mike Maccagnan coming up. His first two drafts have been, despite what the "only care about stars" media and fanbase thinks, okay. Not great, Not horrible. So this is a big one. He nailed his first top ten pick., which some people think was a no brainer, although with the Jets, the no brainer can go by the wayside.

Darron Lee has potential at the 20th pick. But he needs to really nail this pick

 

 

Great post. You are absolutely correct. There are plenty of examples of this for GM's and HC's. But Jets fans always want to just fire guys at the first sign of trouble.

"Well the team isn't good this year! So lets fire everyone!"

It's so stupid and irrational logic. People love to do it though because it makes them feel good going into the off season. It gives them this renewed hope or something like that. And then when the next coach/GM has a bad year they want him fired too.

We'll never win that way.

[faba]

well Raiders have drafted well - the key to success in this league finally but 14 years without the playoffs so put it in perspective

[sourceworx]

6 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Seems to have been the right move with Idzik.

Believe it or not as bad as Idzik's drafts were, I would have been ok with keeping him longer if it weren't for the reports that he purposely sabotaged Rex so he could justify firing him.

That doesn't mean I think Rex should have been given another chance. Woody should have fired him when he fired Tannenbaum.

But once Idzik accepted the GM position with Rex as the coach, his job was to provide him with the best personnel possible within the salary cap constraints. He intentionally did not do that. And that's why he didn't deserve more than the two years they gave him.

In Mac's case, some of his moves have gone wrong, some terribly so.  But I still think he's brought in some young talent to build on. I think Petty is showing potential to improve, and I'm not as down on the Hackenberg pick as others are. I don't think it's time to clean house.

Bowles on the other hand, appears to have lost the team and players have shown little to no respect for him. I think he needs to go.

[August]

47 minutes ago, sourceworx said:

Believe it or not as bad as Idzik's drafts were, I would have been ok with keeping him longer if it weren't for the reports that he purposely sabotaged Rex so he could justify firing him.

That doesn't mean I think Rex should have been given another chance. Woody should have fired him when he fired Tannenbaum.

But once Idzik accepted the GM position with Rex as the coach, his job was to provide him with the best personnel possible within the salary cap constraints. He intentionally did not do that. And that's why he didn't deserve more than the two years they gave him.

In Mac's case, some of his moves have gone wrong, some terribly so.  But I still think he's brought in some young talent to build on. I think Petty is showing potential to improve, and I'm not as down on the Hackenberg pick as others are. I don't think it's time to clean house.

Bowles on the other hand, appears to have lost the team and players have shown little to no respect for him. I think he needs to go.

They should've either kept Rex and Tanny for another year or fire them both. Keeping Rex but hiring Idzik was stupid. And I don't believe that he purposely tried to sabotage Rex. Idzik was rebuilding while Rex was coaching for his job. Both of them had different agendas so in the long run it was never going to work. 

[goober36]

I understand our GM hasn't been all that great, but I think he has potential. He works like an F'in dog in the offseason scouting. He's a former scout and knows what to look for in guys. Heck, if Hack turns out the guy everyone would had a different opinion on him


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[Beerfish]

1 minute ago, goober36 said:

I understand our GM hasn't been all that great, but I think he has potential. He works like an F'in dog in the offseason scouting. He's a former scout and knows what to look for in guys. Heck, if Hack turns out the guy everyone would had a different opinion on him


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That is how all GMs are judged, if you find a good QB, not even a franchise one you get years and all sorts of credit, if you don't find the QB you do not last.

[drdetroit]

1 minute ago, goober36 said:

I understand our GM hasn't been all that great, but I think he has potential. He works like an F'in dog in the offseason scouting. He's a former scout and knows what to look for in guys. Heck, if Hack turns out the guy everyone would had a different opinion on him


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I wonder how much Mac's stupid moves (resigning Wilk over Snacks, giving Revis that huge contract) were the result of Woody meddling

[drdetroit]

1 minute ago, Beerfish said:

That is how all GMs are judged, if you find a good QB, not even a franchise one you get years and all sorts of credit, if you don't find the QB you do not last.

Pioli has made a lot of bad moves over the years but he drafted Brady and that helps

[sourceworx]

26 minutes ago, August said:

They should've either kept Rex and Tanny for another year or fire them both. Keeping Rex but hiring Idzik was stupid. And I don't believe that he purposely tried to sabotage Rex. Idzik was rebuilding while Rex was coaching for his job. Both of them had different agendas so in the long run it was never going to work. 

There were reports that at the 2014 Scouting Combine, Idzik had confided in several people that he was trying to get rid of Rex. 

Other than that, I completely agree with your post.

[CanadaSteve]

8 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Seems to have been the right move with Idzik.

Yup...so we do it again, every two years, and keep hoping we come upon a GM who can find 10 starters in 14 draft picks, including an Andrew Luck equivalent QB prospect?

You can't use Idzik as an example and suggest this is how we should operate consistently.  A GM needs 4 years minimum. 

[CanadaSteve]

32 minutes ago, goober36 said:

I understand our GM hasn't been all that great, but I think he has potential. He works like an F'in dog in the offseason scouting. He's a former scout and knows what to look for in guys. Heck, if Hack turns out the guy everyone would had a different opinion on him


 

He has had 2 drafts and most so-called pundits would agree that a draft needs 3 years to be fully judged.  

[RutgersJetFan]

5 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Yup...so we do it again, every two years, and keep hoping we come upon a GM who can find 10 starters in 14 draft picks, including an Andrew Luck equivalent QB prospect?

You can't use Idzik as an example and suggest this is how we should operate consistently.  A GM needs 4 years minimum. 

I can't use an empirical example of the theoretical thing you're proposing? Yes. Yes I actually can use that. 

[phill1c]

2 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

He has had 2 drafts and most so-called pundits would agree that a draft needs 3 years to be fully judged.  

Unless it's god-awful, like...you know "Mr. 12 picks and two of them hit"

Mac has this draft to really shine:

1 6th
2 38th
3 70th
5 134th
6 165th
7 196th

He's gotta hit on the first three!!

[greenwichjetfan]

31 minutes ago, drdetroit said:

Pioli has made a lot of bad moves over the years but he drafted Brady and that helps

You could do a sh*t-ton of a lot worse than Scott Pioli. He was critical to our '98 run, and was the driving force behind the pats* golden years. Forget Brady....no one deserves credit for drafting him where he was taken. He also did well in KC. 

[dbatesman]

4 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

You could do a sh*t-ton of a lot worse than Scott Pioli. 

How?