It starts with talent

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, 56mehl56 said:

 

Our coach has no clue how to take advantage of offense .If Robbie Anderson played for the Chiefs how many long shots would they take each week trying to utilize hi speed.

Look at the Rams and Robert Woods the guy was a scrub on the Bills but now he has a team and coach that can scheme offense.

Sure talent is an issue , but lack of coaching makes talent look much worse than it really is.

it's true.  i follow the draft process a lot each year and you can't tell me that every wr/rb/te the jets take sucks and the guys taken by other teams are good.  the jets do not emphasize offensive player development nor understand how to use the guys they draft.  

[Anthony Jet]

14 hours ago, AL047 said:

This team lacks a foundation and talent for years of bad drafting and bad free agent signings by the likes of Tannenbaum and Idzik. Those two GM's created the problem not McCaganan, he has been trying to fix things. This team can't be fixed in one year and one draft won't ever fix this team. This team needed a overhaul and McCagnan did that by getting rid of all the bad contracts. This team still needs more work, now that he drafted Darnold, his work is now beginning. He has to now build a oline to protect him and get him the proper weapons that he needs like WRs. Darnold needs a RB to take the pressure off  of him when not passing. On defense they need an a pass rushing OLB, ILB, another DE to compliment Williams, NT and a DB to replace Skrine and Claibourne. All these needs can't be fixed in one year!!! 

How about 4 years, can they be fixed in 4 years?

[chirorob]

1 hour ago, 56mehl56 said:

Let's look at the Chiefs for a moment.  Tyreek Hill a 5th rd pick,  Kareem Hunt 3rd rd pick even Travis Kelce 3rd rd pick. These guys are all flourishing because of A) the great year Mahomes is having but more because Andy Reid and staff have a clue as to how to utilize players and create mismatches on offense . Put HIll and Hunt on the Jets and we'd be saying Macc can't draft . Hill wouldn't catch a pass longer than 10 yards and Hunt would be running every 1st and 2nd down into stacked boxes.  

Our coach has no clue how to take advantage of offense .If Robbie Anderson played for the Chiefs how many long shots would they take each week trying to utilize hi speed.

Look at the Rams and Robert Woods the guy was a scrub on the Bills but now he has a team and coach that can scheme offense.

Sure talent is an issue , but lack of coaching makes talent look much worse than it really is.

Maybe Robbie.    But name one guy on the Jets that would start there.   Yes they have hit on late rounders, but look at the amazing lack of talent.

I'm not excusing Bowles.   But this team has little to no talent on it.

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

I'm not pro macc, I'll just not giving this awful HC any excuses.  We have enough talent to compete, we aren't competing 

You're pro-Macc if you believe the latter statement to be true. 

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, Augustiniak said:

it's true.  i follow the draft process a lot each year and you can't tell me that every wr/rb/te the jets take sucks and the guys taken by other teams are good.  the jets do not emphasize offensive player development nor understand how to use the guys they draft.  

Herndon is a nice, average TE.  Elijah McGuire has potential.  But what efforts have we really made to upgrade the team at WR via the draft?  Are you trying to tell me that Chad Hansen and ArDarius Stewart are actually good, and Bowles ruined them? 

When you don't invest with early picks, ever, this is the product you get.  Meanwhile, we draft all kinds of defensive players early and the defense still sucks. 

You can give a lot of the blame for the defense on Bowles.  Macc drafted players to try to fit whatever system Bowles is running (and for that Macc is dumb from the outset; you don't make your picks to fully cater to the coach).  But any defense needs a pass rush and some good corners to succeed, and that aspect was ignored.

Having said that, how can you not blame 90 % of the offense's woes on Maccagnan?  We knew we needed a franchise QB.  Yet for the 3 years leading up to actually drafting one, we did NOTHING in the draft to address the offensive line or WR's.  We operated as if Robby Anderson, at 155 lbs, is good enough to be a starting WR across from Enunwa, and just blindly hoped Hansen and Stewart would work out.  Inexcusable.

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Herndon is a nice, average TE.  Elijah McGuire has potential.  But what efforts have we really made to upgrade the team at WR via the draft?  Are you trying to tell me that Chad Hansen and ArDarius Stewart are actually good, and Bowles ruined them? 

When you don't invest with early picks, ever, this is the product you get.  Meanwhile, we draft all kinds of defensive players early and the defense still sucks. 

You can give a lot of the blame for the defense on Bowles.  Macc drafted players to try to fit whatever system Bowles is running (and for that Macc is dumb from the outset; you don't make your picks to fully cater to the coach).  But any defense needs a pass rush and some good corners to succeed, and that aspect was ignored.

Having said that, how can you not blame 90 % of the offense's woes on Maccagnan?  We knew we needed a franchise QB.  Yet for the 3 years leading up to actually drafting one, we did NOTHING in the draft to address the offensive line or WR's.  We operated as if Robby Anderson, at 155 lbs, is good enough to be a starting WR across from Enunwa, and just blindly hoped Hansen and Stewart would work out.  Inexcusable.

mccagnan is a huge part of the problem.  he hides behind his BPA mantra and ignores key needs like pass rusher, left tackle and offensive weapons.  when you go food shopping you don't ignore the list and say 'honey, i didn't get eggs but I GOT A GREAT DEAL ON SARDINES!"  that's what mccagnan's drafts are like except for darnold.  we keep waiting for him to realize that the offense needs playmakers and linemen but instead he gets sardines.

overall this organization needs a philosophical shift from defense to offense, and it hopefully starts with the current or new gm understanding that nearly everything he does this offseason should be to help darnold.  i would hope mccagnan is replaced but i doubt it, i think the darnold and adams picks buys him another 2 years IMO.  

[Sonny Werblin]

3 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

Do you really believe there are gems sitting on teams practice squads. If that's the case then 31 other GM's are missing out on all this untapped talent.

Not gems, but guys good enough to be on the offensive roster for the Jets who do no have even one player who would be a starter on any other NFL team.

[nyjunc]

24 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You're pro-Macc if you believe the latter statement to be true. 

I watched a less talented bills team make the playoffs last year.  It's coaching and talent but the coaching is worse than our talent

[56mehl56]

27 minutes ago, chirorob said:

Maybe Robbie.    But name one guy on the Jets that would start there.   Yes they have hit on late rounders, but look at the amazing lack of talent.

I'm not excusing Bowles.   But this team has little to no talent on it.

Probably half of the Jets defense would start for KC, on offense I doubt any would. But the point is , don't you think Reid would find ways to make Robbie , McGuire , Herndon and Cannon into useful players on the Chiefs. We can never tell if these guys have talent when we're running a offensive scheme that's suited for the 70's.

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

I watched a less talented bills team make the playoffs last year.  It's coaching and talent but the coaching is worse than our talent

the overall talent on the defense is way better than the coaching but so what.  the whole vibe of the team is that there is no point in trying b/c the entire coaching staff will be replaced and the new staff will have new faves, especially on defense where there are more talented pieces in place.  while the offense will be much newer as they build an offense from virtual scratch around darnold, the defensive guys like leo and lee must wonder if they're going to get paid here when the new guys come in and have no attachments to these high first round picks.

[56mehl56]

3 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Not gems, but guys good enough to be on the offensive roster for the Jets who do no have even one player who would be a starter on any other NFL team.

I believe Herndon, Enumwa and Crowell could and would start on other teams. Robbie at worst would be a 3rd/4th wr for many teams that know how to utilize his speed.

Hell the Giants would probably take 3/5 ths of our Oline . Don't get we wrong the talent on O has been neglected , but its not like the cupboard is completely bare, its just that our HC has a mindset that was effective in another era of football.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, 56mehl56 said:

I believe Herndon, Enumwa and Crowell could and would start on other teams. Robbie at worst would be a 3rd/4th wr for many teams that know how to utilize his speed.

Hell the Giants would probably take 3/5 ths of our Oline . Don't get we wrong the talent on O has been neglected , but its not like the cupboard is completely bare, its just that our HC has a mindset that was effective in another era of football.

the giants' problem was that they completely didn't understand how much of the blame should have gone to eli.  if you put darnold on that team they are scoring a bunch and putting up major highlights.  darnold could run around a bit and fling it to any of those guys who are getting open.  

[Smashmouth]

13 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

What is there to brag about there, exactly?

Of course they’re going to keep him around. We have one of the worst ownership groups in all of pro sports. But that doesn’t make it worth gloating about if you’re right.

 

Look on the bright side 80 we could be the Knicks 

[phill1c]

15 hours ago, RobR said:

When you have the opportunity to draft a franchise QB like Darnold you do it every single time if you don't have one regardless of your roster.

The big problem is our GM failed too address the offensive side of the ball or failed miserably at it, that he put that FQB in a terrible position too succeed. Then you can sprinkle in some Bowles.

Franchise QBs are basically a dime a dozen. Hell, there have been 3 this year. So, they will always be there. Better to have the pieces around the position in place, rather than putting a franchise QB behind an offense that can't protect him or provide him with a running game to protect him.

And then there's the losing: at a certain point, a franchise QB is ruined if they aren't successful.

[chirorob]

56 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Probably half of the Jets defense would start for KC, on offense I doubt any would. But the point is , don't you think Reid would find ways to make Robbie , McGuire , Herndon and Cannon into useful players on the Chiefs. We can never tell if these guys have talent when we're running a offensive scheme that's suited for the 70's.

Yes, we have some players that would start for them on D.   No one on O.   Same on New Orleans.

I don't think we have one player that would start for the Rams.

[RobR]

44 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Franchise QBs are basically a dime a dozen. Hell, there have been 3 this year. So, they will always be there. Better to have the pieces around the position in place, rather than putting a franchise QB behind an offense that can't protect him or provide him with a running game to protect him.

And then there's the losing: at a certain point, a franchise QB is ruined if they aren't successful.

If franchise QB's are a dime a dozen how come we haven't had one in fifty years. You can't be serious with this post.

[chirorob]

58 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

I believe Herndon, Enumwa and Crowell could and would start on other teams. Robbie at worst would be a 3rd/4th wr for many teams that know how to utilize his speed.

Hell the Giants would probably take 3/5 ths of our Oline . Don't get we wrong the talent on O has been neglected , but its not like the cupboard is completely bare, its just that our HC has a mindset that was effective in another era of football.

Saying the Giants would take our O line isn't a good thing.   They have the worst record in the NFL, and possibly the worst line.

They at least have the beginnings of an offense, and if they can somehow get a QB in the 1st next year, and any O Line help, they will be light years ahead of the Jets.

[56mehl56]

15 minutes ago, chirorob said:

Saying the Giants would take our O line isn't a good thing.   They have the worst record in the NFL, and possibly the worst line.

They at least have the beginnings of an offense, and if they can somehow get a QB in the 1st next year, and any O Line help, they will be light years ahead of the Jets.

But again the narrative was no Jets could start on other teams - its just not true. Do they have the most talent absolutely not , but people here act like the Jets are rolling high school kids on the field. You'd expect the CS to help develop some of these into above average players and its not happening

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

4 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

But again the narrative was no Jets could start on other teams - its just not true. Do they have the most talent absolutely not , but people here act like the Jets are rolling high school kids on the field. You'd expect the CS to help develop some of these into above average players

You'd expect that. I wouldn't. When I see players playing bad I think the burden of persuasion is on the people who are claiming that it's for reasons other than that they are bad players. Here the presumption is that everything is everybody else's fault until proven otherwise.

[56mehl56]

Just now, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

You'd expect that. I wouldn't. When I see players playing bad I think the burden of persuasion is on the people who are claiming that it's for reasons other than that they are bad players. Here the presumption is that everything is everybody else's fault until proven otherwise.

Ask yourself this question. If you had a son that was a top notch college WR and he got drafted by the Jets.

If everyone called him a scrub and talent less  would you blame your son or the CS for not utilizing him properly.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

43 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Ask yourself this question. If you had a son that was a top notch college WR and he got drafted by the Jets.

If everyone called him a scrub and talent less  would you blame your son or the CS for not utilizing him properly.

If that's my frame of reference for objective analysis then I have bigger problems than my kid being crap at football honestly.

[peekskill68]

6 hours ago, LionelRichie said:

So what?   The goal shouldn't be to limp by against bad teams and squeak out 6-10 or 7-9.   Parcells, Lombardi, it wouldn't matter - 4 years into a rebuild and the ceiling is at best 7-9.   

Bowles is clearly done.  It can't stop with Bowles though, Macc is equally complicit in this mess and needs to go today.    Start the search today for a President of Football Operations and start accumulating NFL talent.   Today's NFL emphasizes talent at premium positions - QB, WR, OLB/DE, OT.  We can't draft a WR to save our lives.   The best WR drafted in recent memory was Santana Moss and the NYJ shipped him out of town.    

The irony is that the ground and pound was actually working for a time and then the team forgot that OL was the linchpin to the g&p.  The OL has not been addressed since 2010....but we continue to draft 1st rd DL...mind numbing.  

+100 on the OL.  People should go back and remind themselves of the OL talent we had when the team was winning.  An example:  Fabini, Kendall, Mawae, Moore and McKenzie were the starters in the Doug Brien playoff game back in 2004.  Rex's OL was even better. Compare that to now...

[rammagen]

19 hours ago, Saul Goodman said:

Mostly agree. The lack of talent is by far the biggest problem. But Bowles and Bates are really bad at their jobs as well. 

while there is a lack of talent this team could and should be 5 and 4 with a coach. the browns game and one of the two dolphins games were there for the taking but the clown of the coach blew it. If I was the owner I would have fired him after loosing to the browns

[phill1c]

1 hour ago, RobR said:

If franchise QB's are a dime a dozen how come we haven't had one in fifty years. You can't be serious with this post.

Because if you don't have an OL or WRs or an offensive philosophy to use them it really doesn't matter who is behind center.

The whole notion of "franchise qb" is just a myth. The Jets have had numerous "franchise" QBs. It's just that they are the Jets franchise QBs.

Give me a loaded team and a journeyman at QB and I bet I win more than, say, Andrew Luck.

[chirorob]

1 hour ago, 56mehl56 said:

But again the narrative was no Jets could start on other teams - its just not true. Do they have the most talent absolutely not , but people here act like the Jets are rolling high school kids on the field. You'd expect the CS to help develop some of these into above average players and its not happening

WHo would start on the Rams?

Who on offense would start on the Chiefs, over what player?

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

I watched a less talented bills team make the playoffs last year.  It's coaching and talent but the coaching is worse than our talent

You keep pushing this.  Who cares about the Bills?  If that's who we're trying to compare to it's not helping your case. 

[56mehl56]

2 minutes ago, chirorob said:

WHo would start on the Rams?

Who on offense would start on the Chiefs, over what player?

Adams, maybe Leo, right now with Kupp out possibly Enumwa.

Carpenter over Erving , possibly Winters over Jeff Allen.

[carlito1171]

17 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Here's 11 good reasons why, as bad as Todd Bowles is, Mike Maccagnan is even worse:

 

* Devin Smith

* Lorenzo Mauldin

* Bryce Petty

* Jarvis Harrison

* Christian Hackenberg

* Juston Burris

* Marcus Maye

* ArDarius Stewart

* Chad Hansen

* Jordan Leggett

* Dylan Donahue

 

And here's a few more:

 

* $39 million guaranteed to Darrelle Revis

* $13 million guaranteed to Buster Skrine

* Marcus Gilchrist

* Percy Harvin

* Matt Forte

* Ryan Clady

* Spencer Long

* Trumaine Johnson

Percy was Idzik’s blunder

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

10 hours ago, TeddEY said:

Sure.  But we’re 3-7, so, “a few more wins” and we’re still bad.  So, probably more important to focus on the good players part.

A few more wins and the Jets are 6-4 right now. We lost 3 very winnable games. Even if we win only 2 out of the 3, that would put us at 5-5.  I'd say that is far from bad. But I agree that we need better players. 

[nyjunc]

15 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You keep pushing this.  Who cares about the Bills?  If that's who we're trying to compare to it's not helping your case. 

I'm not pushing anything, I'm showing how good coaching can make a difference.

[genot]

21 hours ago, chirorob said:

Watch a Rams game.   Name 1 player on our entire roster that would start for them.  Watch the Chiefs, name 1 starter on our O that would start for them.  

Bowles is not a good coach, but after 4 years the lack of talent on this roster is amazing.   Macc has made some little moves that work out, but name one player he gave a large contract to which, after 2 years looks like a good signing.

There's 29 other teams in the league. Those teams are by far and away have the most explosive offenses.

[#27TheDominator]

15 hours ago, carlito1171 said:

Percy was Idzik’s blunder

Maybe he wanted to give up the 4th and $11M to keep him in 2015.  I mean the guy did have almost 250 yards from scrimmage and a TD since then!

13 hours ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

A few more wins and the Jets are 6-4 right now. We lost 3 very winnable games. Even if we win only 2 out of the 3, that would put us at 5-5.  I'd say that is far from bad. But I agree that we need better players. 

5-5 is exactly 1 game from bad.  It is just as far from "good."

[genot]

15 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

Adams, maybe Leo, right now with Kupp out possibly Enumwa.

Carpenter over Erving , possibly Winters over Jeff Allen.

Carpenter is on my s... list. He gave up on holding his blocks against the Bills.

[sec101row23]

3 minutes ago, genot said:

There's 29 other teams in the league. Those teams are by far and away have the most explosive offenses.

Go through all 32 teams and show me the teams with worse offensive talent than the Jets.  And don’t use your over-inflated values you place on Jet players, be realistic and go through the other teams rosters.  

[nyjunc]

6 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Go through all 32 teams and show me the teams with worse offensive talent than the Jets.  And don’t use your over-inflated values you place on Jet players, be realistic and go through the other teams rosters.  

Coming into this season healthy we had decent offensive talent.  When the injuries started piling up we didn't have enough depth but who expects best rb, top 4 WRs to get hurt?